Club Obi Wan

I know that the generally accepted theory (as told by DM himself) is that HF wore a 10 footer, and cracked an 8 footer.

I'm not convinced that was always the case in Raiders. In every screen shot of the belted whip I've seen, I can't definitively see the full fourth coil of most 10 footers.

To muddy the water even more, one well-known whipmaker says that he perceived HF practicing with a 10 footer.

Your thoughts?

By any chance, do you have a screen shot or two that supports your position?

There are plenty to choose from, Joe:

http://movie-screencaps.com/raiders-lost-ark-1981/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;












My question was really aimed at those who already have opinions, have empirical or persuasive evidence either way, or are interested in researching it for themselves. Again, definitively is the key word here.

Well its definitely a whip made of some sort of leather.

It's really hard to tell..You can force an 8' whip to look like 10'. My 8' whips loop 2 times back parallel with the transition knot without bending them unnaturally. My 10' loop 3 times, both count 3&4 side by side near the transition knot. Even though in reality it is 2&3 full revolutions.

Belial,

The circumference of the coils definitely comes into play.

Definitely a 10 footer. 98.327% of the time that we see it on his belt it's a 10'. When he cracks it or has it in his hand it's usually an 8'

knibs7 wrote:Definitely a 10 footer. 98.327% of the time that we see it on his belt it's a 10'. When he cracks it or has it in his hand it's usually an 8'

That is one worn out looking whip!

moses wrote:That is one worn out looking whip!

Yup, noodley. I love it.

Glenn Randall must've beat the #### out of that whip, because all the David Morgan's I've ever owned stay coiled like a spring. They have *never* become as loose or flexible as a rope. Granted, the 100+ degree Tunisian heat might be a factor, but still...

And yes, I would also love my whips to look like that, rather than springy and new.

Nice shot of the Streets of Cairo hat too! Crown height looks awesome.

Cajunkraut wrote:

knibs7 wrote:Definitely a 10 footer. 98.327% of the time that we see it on his belt it's a 10'. When he cracks it or has it in his hand it's usually an 8'

I'd hate to know what they did to weather and age that whip in production, it looks terrible! It almost has the likeness of a used rope.

The whips were from Glen Randall's own collection - so they had probably had all sorts of previous stunt use and abuse. In fact didn't Morgan state that although the whips used were of his making, he didn't make any specifically for the film - only for the subsequent films?

My Morgan has developed that half color and is starting to relax into this "rope" like appearance. I think it's just a really used whip that Mr. Randall used for these scenes as they probly had to tie it in place Ford all the running and fighting.

Tundrarider wrote:Funny, personally I'd love to know what they did to get it worn in like this!

I've only handled one Morgan and it was very supple; it could easily be coiled into very small loops.

On the other hand, my whip looks like a slinky with it's somewhat stiff symmetrical round coils. I want it to look like this one!

Michael

Michael,

IMO the secret to this flaccid Morgan is that DM whips seem to be constructed slightly looser than most. This is evident on new DM whips with the smaller loops you mentioned, and probably becomes even more apparent after lots of mileage.

My well-worn pre-owned Del Carpio mimics this as well, and is very noodley/ropey in the last 3 feet or so.

As a side note, I find it interesting that the whip in the last photo has what most consider the "TOD taper" in the handle.

His hands look like he's 85 years old!!!!

I know from experience that a whip placed out in the sun for a couple hours (for tanning) will become extremely soft and supple, like a piece of warm licorice, as demonstrated by giving the handle a few twirls. When the leather cools again, it regains it normal firm consistency. My 13-year-old DM 8-footer can be coiled into very tight, compact loops, small enough to fit into a MKVII bag, but it doesn't look like a well-worn rope on my belt. So I'm in agreement with moses that Glenn Randall probably put these whips through the wringer during years of stunt use prior to Raiders. To achieve that same effect on a new bullwhip, you'd have to wrap it around wooden posts or tree branches a million times, flex it to unnatural angles by hand, or somehow fasten it to a large set of motorized pulley wheels (like a belt sander) and run it for weeks, all of which would break down the whip's internal layers and utterly ruin its accuracy. Not worth it for a $500+ custom made bullwhip, but fine if you have a cheap costume whip.

Hollowpond wrote:His hands look like he's 85 years old!!!!

More Pecard's.

Hollowpond wrote:His hands look like he's 85 years old!!!!

Maybe Indy drank from the wrong grail!

baddates1 wrote:Maybe Indy drank from the wrong grail!

"That's the hand of a carpenter." *rimshot*

Cajunkraut wrote:

knibs7 wrote:Definitely a 10 footer. 98.327% of the time that we see it on his belt it's a 10'. When he cracks it or has it in his hand it's usually an 8'

Notice I didn't say 100% of the time, but MOST of the time it's a 10 footer

knibs7 wrote:Notice I didn't say 100% of the time, but MOST of the time it's a 10 footer

I know, all but 1.673%.

Again, just based on screencaps, I don't ever perceive a 10 footer on the Raiders belt. The other movies, yes.

Just my $.02.

I think it's safe to say that in the opening sequence when we see him draw his whip, it's a 10', as well as the "stay out of the light" whip. Same when he draws in the SOC and on the Flying Wing. I think he is clearly holding an 8' when he gets on the cart to look around for Marion/when he discovers the swordsman. I think the whip that Marion burns with the torch is an 8' and the promo shot you posted of him in the SOC with the whip on his belt is definitely an 8'.

I interpret three average-sized coils (including the transition), not including the fall, as being characteristic of an 8 footer.

'SOC draw' whip versus a CNC 8 footer, as advertised on Dusty's site. It looks identical to the opening scene whip to me.



I only see three coils plus a fall in the 'stay out of the light' whip too. I perceive the flying wing whip as the same worn out, ropey whip you see in the SOC promo shot.

Who knows. It sure is fun trying to decode it though. Now I know how the SA jacket police feel.

See, I can say the same thing about my 10'. 3 coils. It depends on how loose or tight you make them. And I think the Flying Wing whip was made from kip hide. I guess we'll never know unless we hold it in our hands

Yeah, I dunno.

All of my 10 footers give me at least 4 coils, 5 if I make 'em small.

I want to get back to the noodle look of the Raiders whip for a moment and share some thoughts on this.

Stuntmen are not generally very gentle with their gear, this I know for a fact for having worked with many over the past 26 years. These came from a personal collection and one can rightly assume they had been used for many years and probably not in the kindest of ways.

There are rumors that David Morgan may have made whip with kip for a while during a ban on kangaroo products... This could DEFINITELY account for the difference in firmness of the Indy whips in the films and those one might purchase today made from kangaroo leather. Kip can make a good whip, but it is not as strong as kangaroo and one cannot pull with as much force whilst plaiting, so it is normal that once the leather has relaxed and the whip is broken-in, that it be looser than a tightly plaited kangaroo hide whip.

These two possibilities, especially the first, would in my view account for a looser whip. Also, as stated before, it is also possible DM didn't plait quite as tightly as others and this would have a very significant effect on how the whip aged.

My two cents,


Franco

Great points, Franco.

A somewhat related post to this thread in general:

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... iders+whip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know this is an old thread, but just to add my two cents to the debate...

I don't think we can even compare the whip Indy used in the Peruvian Temple with anything we see post Belloq and the Hovitos.
Belloq clearly takes Indy's revolver, but in these screen captures you can clearly see Belloq has Indy's whip as well...

(I posted these as links as I can't figure out to how to resize them)

http://i0.wp.com/m.screencaps.us/198/1- ... m-1208.jpg

http://i0.wp.com/m.screencaps.us/198/1- ... m-1252.jpg

The next time we see a bullwhip is when he's packing his luggage to go after the Ark.

http://i0.wp.com/m.screencaps.us/198/1- ... m-2634.jpg

Can we imagine Indy has several bullwhips at home - almost certainly. He has several different revolvers and pistols, so why not?
Are they all identical? Who knows...

JohnnyD97 wrote:Can we imagine Indy has several bullwhips at home - almost certainly. He has several different revolvers and pistols, so why not? Are they all identical? Who knows...

Right on, it's safe to presume that he has multiples of most if not all of his gear.

The original point of the thread was that we never positively identify a screen-used 10 footer anywhere in Raiders by way of screencaps. There is an early publicity shot with what most agree is a 10 footer, but it's just that, a publicity shot showing a Han Solo-coiffed Indy.

After seeing this thread I'll likely get an 8' for costume wear as the 10' tends to get rather heavy...

I'd say, chose you costuming whip based on how long you'll be wearing it, and what activity you'll be engaged in while it's on your belt. If you plan to wear it a long time, or do a lot of walking or some running, pick the lightest you can get. 8' is ok if it's cowhide or not as lead core, but I can tell you that it ***** going for a long walk with an 8' roo lead-core whip on your belt! For short periods and basic photo-ops, the heavier 8' or the 10 look great.

I also think it's important to keep in mind that, when making movies, some weapon props have different versions for different uses. Even if the whips came from a certain person's collection, that person could have had, or the prop department could have made, non-functional light-weight duplicates just for belt wear. This happens often with swords and large guns.

Good points, Chewie.

Exactly why I switched from wearing a whip holder around both my pants belt and gun belt to a holder riveted to the gun belt. The separate holder setup kept creeping my pants waist down.

Cajunkraut wrote:

JohnnyD97 wrote:Can we imagine Indy has several bullwhips at home - almost certainly. He has several different revolvers and pistols, so why not? Are they all identical? Who knows...

Right on, it's safe to presume that he has multiples of most if not all of his gear.

The original point of the thread was that we never positively identify a screen-used 10 footer anywhere in Raiders by way of screencaps. There is an early publicity shot with what most agree is a 10 footer, but it's just that, a publicity shot showing a Han Solo-coiffed Indy.

We don't have to imagine it. At the very least, when he runs from the Hovitos, Belloq has the whip he has in the opening scenes. At the very least, he has to get a new whip after that.

folkprophet wrote:We don't have to imagine it. At the very least, when he runs from the Hovitos, Belloq has the whip he has in the opening scenes. At the very least, he has to get a new whip after that.

Yep. As well as another revolver and fedora.

I know this is a late comment but I think the construction of the whips that Morgan was making in the late 70s contributes to the ropeyness of the Raiders whips. I have a 1936 Indy from Paul at Midwest whips. It is made as close to the construction of the 70s Morgan's as you can get an it's like a living rope. It'll do anything I tell it to. It moves and looks just like the movie whips.