Dent in Ford's forehead produces crucial hat feature.

In-depth discussion of the Fedora of Indiana Jones and all other hats appearing in the Indiana Jones movies

Moderators: Indiana Jeff, Dalexs

Post Reply
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Dent in Ford's forehead produces crucial hat feature.

Post by 3thoubucks »

The dent in the Raiders hat over Indy's right eye that extends under the ribbon is possibly due to the unusual valleys and ridges in his forehead. They even put a dent in the Nazi hat? I don't have ridges in my head but I got the dent by putting two pieces of folded t.p. in my sweatband. Image Image Image Image Image
Last edited by 3thoubucks on Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Marc
Vendor
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:29 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Marc »

3kB you start to scare me :shock:

I have the hightest respect for your dedication to detail when it comes to the perfect Raiders Fed., but sometimes your precise analyzes give me a shiver.

Regards,

Marc
Farnham54
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 798
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Looking for clever places to re-hide Jess's TomTom

Post by Farnham54 »

Amazing, 3thoubucks!

Excellent eye for observation. When we get the PERFECT screen accurate fedora, it'll be in large measure thanks to you!

Regarsd,

Farn
Spatterdash
Laboratory Technician
Laboratory Technician
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:12 am
Location: oklahoma

Post by Spatterdash »

I agree,
that kind of detail is disturbing, almost ghoulish...I love it. :D

When this info is compiled, I say it should be in an FAQ all it's own. I think it's that important, yes I do, and that is high praise, coming from a spat-wearin' snob like me!
User avatar
Modern Jones
Archaeologist
Archaeologist
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 4:12 pm
Location: Currently being torn in 20 directions, at once! (As usual ....)

Post by Modern Jones »

Anyone ever hit a golf ball? "Keep your back straight, knees bent, hold the club lightly, but not too light ....." :?

That's like trying to get a fedora to look like Raiders. "Keep your crown straight, brim bent, turn the hat slightly, but not too much ....." :?


3K$ is our instructor helping us with all these things that'll all be natural one day very soon! Sometimes we'll get it right (like a golf swing) and other times we'll hook or slice. It should be that challenging. Cause when you hit it right, it's a beautiful thing!!! :D


Cheers 3K$!!! Impressive work!


Regards,

Skip
User avatar
auntsugar
Dig Leader
Dig Leader
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Back at the workbench....tinkering--always tinkering.

Post by auntsugar »

I sure hope this topic doesn't spawn more "self-mutilation" stories...
User avatar
Cooler King
Archaeologist
Archaeologist
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:59 am
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Post by Cooler King »

I got that effect naturally, very cool. It's all about how you wear it. If it's too tight, or too far back on your head it won't show. Try a few different ways of wearing it in the mirror, you'll get it... ;)
User avatar
Indy Magnoli
Staff Member
Staff Member
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 4:00 am
Location: Middle Earth, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Indy Magnoli »

You know, if you slam the MKII idol up against your forehead at the right angle, I believe you can achieve that same bump... :-k Sorry, Aunt Sugar... I couldn't resist.

Kind regards,
Indy
User avatar
Michaelson
Knower of Things
Posts: 44484
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Out here knowing stuff and things and wishing I were with the family at Universal Studios Orlando

Post by Michaelson »

I was thinking a shovel, Indy, but I suppose the MkII idol would do just as well. :wink: Regards. Michaelson
User avatar
Michaelson
Knower of Things
Posts: 44484
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Out here knowing stuff and things and wishing I were with the family at Universal Studios Orlando

Interesting phone call

Post by Michaelson »

I just got off the phone with a fellow who works in the movie industry on the West Coast, specifically the prop supply part of the industry, who will remain un-named at his request, but he's been around the business for quite a while. In the discussion, I mentioned all these discussions regarding the dents, bumps and 'swoops' in the brim that everyone is trying to copy in the Indiana Jones trilogy, specifically Raiders. I directed him to this thread (among others), and he laughed. He told me that the standard practice in the industry was to always hand a hat ONE SIZE SMALLER to the principal actor anytime they are going to be involved in any streneous action scenes. I specifically mentioned the fight scenes from Raiders, and he said 'perfect example'. By making it a smaller size, they do not have to worry about reshooting scenes with the hat flying off during a stunt. This smaller hat will deform along the brim due to the smaller size, but that is never a concern, as who is going to look at the scene with a microscope and notice that anyway. (He don't know us, do he? :wink: ) When they have non-action scene, the principal then dons a correctly sized hat, and they go on with the shooting of the movie. This would account for the continued change from scene to scene of the fit and shape of the fedora. I don't have any reason to doubt this fellow, as he's been in the business for decades, and I have experienced the same thing anytime I put on a size 7 1/4 fedora regarding these dents and swoops of the brim, but never do when wearing a 7 3/8 long oval. Just some things to mull over. Regards. Michaelson
Rixter
Dig Leader
Dig Leader
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:27 pm

Post by Rixter »

I guess that puts an end to the staple gun theory HF help perpetuate in some of those action scenes. <sigh>
User avatar
Michaelson
Knower of Things
Posts: 44484
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Out here knowing stuff and things and wishing I were with the family at Universal Studios Orlando

Post by Michaelson »

I thought of that one too, Rixter. Apparently they didn't HAVE a smaller sized hat that day, and Ford had to use his regular size fedora. Proof was in the out takes. Regards. Michaelson
User avatar
Mike
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 9686
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 7:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Interesting phone call

Post by Mike »

Michaelson wrote:... always hand a hat ONE SIZE SMALLER to the principal actor anytime they are going to be involved in any streneous action scenes.
I agree with you and your industry insider and believe this fits in with my theory on 3K$'s original post, where I suggested that his hat was either small or an oval going on a long oval head. I stated then too, that if you pull... gently... your hat from front to back those swoops, bumps, etc. magically appear. This is evident in my too small '90 HJ when it's on top of my noggin. I also said then that I think 3K's turn is a good way to get the look without the headache of a tight hat.

Oh, and Rixter... maybe the staple gun is what caused those unusual bumps in Ford's noggin. :wink:

Mike
User avatar
Indiana Texas-girl
Expeditionary Hero
Expeditionary Hero
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 12:56 pm
Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas
Contact:

Post by Indiana Texas-girl »

Why do I get the feeling that people here may start stuffing their fedora brims with toilet paper.... :lol:

Seriously though, how many of your are gonna go compare the fedora in the action scenes vs. the non-action scenes?
User avatar
Lindiana
Laboratory Technician
Laboratory Technician
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:24 pm
Location: Marseilles ILLinois
Contact:

Post by Lindiana »

not me ITG I've been banging my head off the kitchen counter to try and get my skull the right shape. When it gets close or I wake up from my coma I'll let you guys know how it worked.
Lindy
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by 3thoubucks »

Ford has a sloping forehead, but I have fairly vertical one. I can't get that dent without stuffing the brim there, because there's not enough space between the felt and my scull. So if you want this dent but don't have a sloping scull, this works. If I just stuff one rolled up piece of t.p. way down in the band at the crown/brim junction, mimicing Ford's head slope (but without a dent) I can't get a decent dent, compared to using using two pieces to form a gap. If ford didn't have that visible dent in his head, I can't say a dent wouldn't have formed in his hat here, but I bet it wouldn't have been as spectacular.
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by 3thoubucks »

I just looked at a bunch of L.C. stills Rundquist posted- There's nothing. Michaelson is right, the Raiders hat is tight. Turning the hat produces a tighter fit, as Pyroxene has recently confirmed. (The L.C. hat wasn't turned) Also, a turn to the right gives you more felt to bash in the right dent. ....As for your taper in back- the whole crown is tapered on your old Fed, so it can't be avoided. :wink:
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

A dent you say? I am working on it as we speak. ](*,) Fedora
User avatar
Ken
Staff Member
Staff Member
Posts: 2366
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:24 am
Location: Back from the field
Contact:

Re: Interesting phone call

Post by Ken »

Michaelson wrote: He told me that the standard practice in the industry was to always hand a hat ONE SIZE SMALLER...
Michaelson

This is indeed fascinating. After the QM summit I let Dan (Rick Blaine) try on my hat (Akubra Federation). Now it was one size smaller than what he regularly wears. However when he put it on he was astonished - he said it looked far more Raiders than any hat he had ever put on before. It even resulted in mushroom effect reverse taper. We came to the conclusion that the way to acheive the Raiders effect was to order one size smaller than you actually take - this was the advice I followed when ordering my Keppler and by gosh it is the best Raiders hat I have ever had (though I think thats not just due to the sizing!).

Image

Me wearing the Akubra

Image

Dan wearing the Akubra

Ken
User avatar
Indiana Texas-girl
Expeditionary Hero
Expeditionary Hero
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 12:56 pm
Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas
Contact:

Post by Indiana Texas-girl »

I can confirm what Ken is saying about the hat. This event took place either on June 1 or June 2, 2003 at the Holiday Inn in Hollywood. Dan definitely had a mushroom effect going on with Ken's Federation. (hheeehee)

P.S. That pic above is of Dan sitting at MK's desk!
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by 3thoubucks »

Hey Indiana Ken? I don't know if you are aware of it, but your hat has the Raiders turn in your picture. The front pinch is way to the right, and you're getting the peak in the right side of the brim and the dip in front of your right eye. ...Or are you just mocking me?? ..:wink: Can I borrow this picture? I'd like to add it to the "Gallery of the Turned Hats" on my "Raiders Turn" web page! (see the link below) Image
Demented Wookie
Field Surveyor
Field Surveyor
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:31 pm
Location: Tampa, FL (Land of Swamp & Sun)
Contact:

Post by Demented Wookie »

I took my fed which is normally a little lose and gave it a slight turn. That helped get the Raiders brim, but then I put the foam in it to downsize a little and BAM! there it was "the" Raiders brim complete with swoops and dips. Now all I gotta do is de-stiffen the brim a bit and beat it up a little (as it still looks to new) and it should look darn good I think. Just thought I'd drop in my 2 cents.
Regards,
-Chewie
User avatar
Ken
Staff Member
Staff Member
Posts: 2366
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:24 am
Location: Back from the field
Contact:

Post by Ken »

I realised the centre dent was a bit off centre, but I never deliberatly meant to turn the hat as such. But feel free to use the picture for your gallery 3thoubucks. However I am afraid I cant take any further pictures of the hat since it is now in the care of Dan.

Ken

PS - someday I fully intend to try out your theory after seeing the great results that haver been acheived with it.

PPS - I wouldn't mock you - but looks like these people are ;)

Image
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

Maybe the 90 degree turn would be a little drastic. :wink: Fedora
User avatar
Puppetboy
Vendor
Posts: 1024
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:57 am
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Post by Puppetboy »

But the question is...were these features (bumps, dips, turns, shape of oval, etc.) designed into the hat intentionally, or were they just happy accidents? Also condider that the hats in the subsequent films didn't look as wrinkled...perhaps that indicates that this look was an accidental combination of the block shape and the quality of felt. Is it a matter that they didn't WANT the hat to look rumpled in the sequels, or they didn't know HOW to make the hat look the same in the sequels? My theory is that after the ROTLA became such a hit, they made much better quality hats for the sequels.
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by 3thoubucks »

I think they were rich and lazy in the era of the sequels. Here's some more head dent. Thanks Indiana Ken, your picture is added to the gallery. Image
Fedora
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Posts: 3795
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:44 pm

Post by Fedora »

Puppetboy wrote: "My theory is that after the ROTLA becam ... e sequels.".
My theory is that the Raiders felt was more of a dress vintage quality, a lightweight, thinner felt like the Optimo. HJ changed felt providers almost like I change clothes. :lol: All of the little idiosyncrisis of the Raiders hat is due to the block, and how the thin felt reacts to the environment. This type of felt is common on vintage hats and I have several Stetsons to prove it. You can never achieve a true Raiders look without the thin pliable felt. regards, Fedora
User avatar
Dakota Ellison
Dig Leader
Dig Leader
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 4:59 pm
Location: Atlanta, Georgia

Post by Dakota Ellison »

I think the effect is more from a tight ribbon than anything else. The first pic shows the hat resting at about hairline level, not on Ford's forehead at all. I think in the 120 degree heat they removed the liner and sweatband and tightened up the ribbon. With the hat siting back and not so snug on his head the elasticity of the ribbon would pull the felt together a bit, thus producing the pucker in the right front dent. I demonstrated this a couple of years ago in the old forum with my first Federation which was about to become my first block. I did exactly as described above and the result was about the same. The only pic I have of this hat is my old avatar:
Image
User avatar
3thoubucks
Professor of Archaeology
Professor of Archaeology
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:26 am
Location: San Francisco, California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by 3thoubucks »

The ribbon may have been tight, promoting dent formation when the hat was off. The dent is sometimes seen with the hat on normaly. This is probably a blue screen, or rear projection sound stage shot, before they went to North Africa. I'm certain my hat would look more Raiders if the felt was thinner/softer. Image
Spatterdash
Laboratory Technician
Laboratory Technician
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:12 am
Location: oklahoma

Post by Spatterdash »

Seriously 3thoubucks,

I would wholeheartedly support your research being available at Indygear.com, either as a link to your website or as a page maintained by the Indygear server.
You have my sincere admiration, and I'd bet Belloq's hookah that others will support the idea as well. Even a non-participant in COW could visit the Indygear site and get advice on the enigmatic Raiders bash, and that would be of great assistance to Indyfans all over the world.
User avatar
Ken
Staff Member
Staff Member
Posts: 2366
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:24 am
Location: Back from the field
Contact:

Post by Ken »

I think a tight ribbon nails it. Put everything together and thats it! I will definitly be trying this out sometime.

Ken
Post Reply