Club Obi Wan

So did anyone receive this with your jacket?



Reason I'm asking is that I'm the artist who drew the picture and Bill Kelso didn't bother to ask for permission to use it. I'm a bit angry because it's only been posted on Sideshow collector's forum and it's quite easy to contact me through that forum here's my original post: http://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forum ... hp?t=81588" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.



The image has also been clumsily edited to remove the machinegun and so has my signature - oddly enough. Yeah it's *just* a drawing but drawing and painting is my livelihood, and they are using my work to sell some pretty expensive jackets, and I don't get a dime or any recognizion. Making a living doing this is hard enough as it is without people stealing your artwork.

I've written to them, asking for some sort of compensation or that they at least stop using my art. You can't just rip any image from the net and use for your own gain. It just doesn't work that way.

Good catch. Sorry this happened to you.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Hi Kredepops,
Didn't know where to find you.
Bill Kelso has a job offer for you. Please contact sales@billkelsomfg.com

afalzon wrote:Hi Kredepops,
Didn't know where to find you.
Bill Kelso has a job offer for you. Please contact sales@billkelsomfg.com

So... when Bill Kelso didn't know where to find Kredepops, Bill Kelso decided to go ahead and use Kredepops' artwork without permission, credit, or payment?



Kredepops: I'm sorry to hear of this unethical treatment of your work.

Wow, this is especially troubling considering the previous questionable decription of these jackets... The half a**ed attempt at a job offer after being called out for stealing artwork is even more vexing, I'd say!! I'm sorry this happened to you, Kredepops Too bad, the jackets I'm seeing look superb too!

Hi, this artwork was made by BK's graphics artist. The graphics artist is an independent person/company and not employed full time by Bill Kelso. Bill Kelso had no way of knowing or reason to ask where the art originally came from and cannot be responsible for his actions or omissions. After this post showed up we asked the gfx guy who made this where he got the art from and his reply was "somewhere from the www", he couldn't recall where exactly and admit that as such even if he wanted he could not contact the artist. He said, "as long as the art is freely distributed on the net and the artist does not have it protected, with watermarks or otherwise, then it means the artist does not really care if it is used by others".

Some guys here are ready to draw their pistols start shooting and ask questions later. Please get all the facts before you start the accusations.

Bill Kelso NEVER got any messages from the artist regarding this and deeply regrets that the artist preferred to make this public, instead of contacting Bill Kelso first to find an amicable solution. Despite that, Bill Kelso is ready to pay for the art. This was posted at another forum also, but no messages from the artist yet. Guess some people only like to cause damage...

afalzon wrote:He said, "as long as the art is freely distributed on the net and the artist does not have it protected, with watermarks or otherwise, then it means the artist does not really care if it is used by others".

You guys should inform this "graphic artist" (I use the term loosely because if what you have said is true, this person clearly has had little to no credible education) that he could not be more wrong regarding the right to use the work.

Art does NOT require a copyright notice or watermark to be protected. That it exists is enough. No formal registration or notice is required. This has been a fact of both United States Copyright Law, the Berne Convention (governing international copyright protection), and many other similar copyright laws for quite some time.

In point of fact, due to the myriad of copyright laws that exist internationally, the exact OPPOSITE of what your "graphic artist" says is true. That is, an artwork can only be considered public domain and available for free use only if such notice specifically accompanies said artwork.

I have worked professionally as a graphic designer for nearly 20 years. I have dealt with many copyright and trademark issues. So I know a bit about what I'm talking about. I'm telling you this so that you don't get yourselves into trouble in the future.

(Oh, and I'd dump that "graphic designer" and look into hiring someone with better ethics / credibility.)

Whoever may have been subcontracted for the graphic design, when all is said and done, the label is on a Bill Kelso product. Ultimately, is it not Bill Kelso's responsibility for the product--labels and all--that come from Bill Kelso MFG?

At the very least, doesn't Bill Kelso owe Kredepops an apology?

Seems like this vendor likes copying things without any regard; Berman and Nathans tag, Kredepops artwork.

The label and this artwork are two totally different things and you should not mix them.

Bill Kelso's job is to make jackets. Not to police the internet. Neither to appoint special agents to make due diligence for the graphics artits/companies we employ and check where they found the artwork they sold us as theirs. WE HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR THIS ARTOWK. YOU CANNOT REASONABLY EXPECT US TO TO KNOW WHO MADE WHICH ARTWORK IN THE WHOLE WWW.

Sure since it is our product we are the ones who should answer about this but he cannot be held responsible and stand being accused here as if we did this deliberately.

Mr Kredepops NEVER came asking for anything.
He thought it was better to defame us first. Maybe he felt he could extort some money from us better this way.
YET, THE PUBLIC PROCECUTORS OF THIS FORUM DO NOT SEE ANYTHING WRONG IN HIS ACTIONS.

Bill Kelso is not used to getting anything for free. We were going to pay, or stop using the art if were asked to. I repeat Mr Kredepops never contacted us before.

We have been warned at a very initial stage that we will constantly be under attack if we don't succumb and offer free jackets and gifts to influential people of this forum.

But I have news for you. We were prepared to offer some, but under these circumstances there will not be any free jackets from Bill Kelso. Extortion will not be tolerated.

We are sorry to read some guys opinions here, but some say negative publicity is the best publicity.
You may slander as much as you like, but there is one fact that remains unchanged and no matter what some people do, it will never change.

Our jacket is the best Raiders jacket ever made after the movie jacket and the second best is miles behind and
our customers are 1000% satisfied.

So here we are, give us your best shot, we can take it.

We have been warned at a very initial stage that we will constantly be under attack if we don't succumb and offer free jackets and gifts to influential people of this forum.

.[/quote]

That's interesting I wonder which "influential people" issued that warning??

Well, for the record, its not the artists responsibility to contact you. Its your responsibility to contact him...that's how that works.

Secondly, who's extorting you?!?!?!? I don't see it. I would love to know who on this forum has asked for a free jacket.

Thirdly, you have a great product and you are driving potential new customers (myself included) away with each successive post. This is just BAD marketing. You made a mistake using that artwork. Own that mistake and move on. What you are doing here is not productive. Not for this site and least of all for your product...

Wow. Suddenly, Bill Kelso is the victim here.

afalzon wrote:The label and this artwork are two totally different things and you should not mix them. Bill Kelso's job is to make jackets. Not to police the internet. Neither to appoint special agents to make due diligence for the graphics artits/companies we employ and check where they found the artwork they sold us as theirs. WE HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR THIS ARTOWK. YOU CANNOT REASONABLY EXPECT US TO TO KNOW WHO MADE WHICH ARTWORK IN THE WHOLE WWW.

We CAN reasonably expect you to know the source of any item that is coming out of your shop.

afalzon wrote:Sure since it is our product we are the ones who should answer about this but he cannot be held responsible and stand being accused here as if we did this deliberately.

Whether or not it was deliberate--ultimately, you are responsible for the entirety of the product coming out of your shop.

afalzon wrote:Mr Kredepops NEVER came asking for anything.
He thought it was better to defame us first. Maybe he felt he could extort some money from us better this way.
YET, THE PUBLIC PROCECUTORS OF THIS FORUM DO NOT SEE ANYTHING WRONG IN HIS ACTIONS.

It's his artwork--his property--that was taken. And you want to paint yourselves the victim? He has no need to extort you--it sounds like legally you owe him money for use of his artwork. Intentionally or not, your company is using stolen artwork.

afalzon wrote:Bill Kelso is not used to getting anything for free. We were going to pay, or stop using the art if were asked to. I repeat Mr Kredepops never contacted us before.

We have been warned at a very initial stage that we will constantly be under attack if we don't succumb and offer free jackets and gifts to influential people of this forum.

But I have news for you. We were prepared to offer some, but under these circumstances there will not be any free jackets from Bill Kelso. Extortion will not be tolerated.

Are YOU accusing ME of trying to extort a free jacket from you?!? Sir, I'll have you know that I have paid for each and every item of Indy gear that I own, or had it given to me as a gift by family members (and none of the vendors are "family members"). Your accusation against me is preposterous--and much closer to "slander" (more properly, "libel") than anything I or anyone else here has said about you!

Well, for the record, its not the artists responsibility to contact you. Its your responsibility to contact him...that's how that works.

Secondly, who's extorting you?!?!?!? I don't see it.

Thirdly, you have a great product and you are driving potential new customers (myself included) away with each successive post. This is just BAD marketing. You made a mistake using that artwork. Own that mistake and move on. What you are doing here is not productive. Not for this site and least of all for your product...

Is that all you got?

As I said, we paid for this artwork. We can't be held responsible for that.
How are we supposed to contact the real artist if we don't know who he is. I am sorry but you don't make any real sense.

Aren't we victim of extortion and defamation by the artist who instead of coming to us to claim his rights he chose to publicly hurt our reputation here? We wouldn't be having this conversation now if he came to us first. We would have paid him for the right to use the artwork and everyone would be happy. Doesn't it make you wonder, was it money he wanted or just cause damage?

We would have admitted the mistake of using the artwork without his permission paid him and end of story. But I guess he didn't like a happy ending. He had to make a fuss. Maybe he'd get recognition this way? On our backs?

The artist just contacted us on ebay. We asked him to contact us officially by email so to make him an offer, like I said in my first post.

Let us worry about our marketing.



Nes, I don't remember accusing you in particular .

TenuredProfessor wrote:We have been warned at a very initial stage that we will constantly be under attack if we don't succumb and offer free jackets and gifts to influential people of this forum.

.

That's interesting I wonder which "influential people" issued that warning?? [/quote]

I, too, would like to know.

I'm aware of you being approaching binkmeisterRick and myself about this project early this year, and we both advised you be prepared for a rocky road, as every vendor who enters those waters have had a rough go until accepted. As a matter of fact, we BOTH told you it would be a good idea to steer clear of this project if you were thin skinned.

All got quiet, and we assumed you took that advice.

I PM'd you a few months ago and asked if you had indeed dropped the project, and you told me to watch for a prototype to be forthcoming, and asked if I was interested. I told you, quote', 'No thanks, I'm not in the market for a jacket at this time.' unquote.

I'm also aware of you offering binkmeisterRick a free jacket, and being turned down.

So, please tell us more. Who told you that was the practice here, though I'm pretty sure I already know.

Michaelson

afalzon wrote:Bill Kelso's job is to make jackets. Not to police the internet. Neither to appoint special agents to make due diligence for the graphics artits/companies we employ and check where they found the artwork they sold us as theirs. WE HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR THIS ARTOWK. YOU CANNOT REASONABLY EXPECT US TO TO KNOW WHO MADE WHICH ARTWORK IN THE WHOLE WWW.

Sure since it is our product we are the ones who should answer about this but he cannot be held responsible and stand being accused here as if we did this deliberately.

Here's the thing: Hypothetically, let's say this turned into a legal issue (I'm not saying that would happen, so don't view this as a "threat" or "intimidation" or whatever -- this is intended as purely informational). You guys would be the ones taken to court. It's possible that the artist might also be named, and you could also possibly pursue damages against the artist, but since it's your company using the art, you're responsible for it. Now, you could claim that you accepted the artwork on good faith (although admitting that you knew the artist got it from the Internet might negate that claim), but the fact remains that *if* someone wanted to pursue legal action, it would fall on your company's shoulders.

Companies get into trouble for just this sort of thing all the time. Sometimes it's deliberate. Sometimes it's accidental.

Kemosabe wrote:Well, for the record, its not the artists responsibility to contact you. Its your responsibility to contact him...that's how that works.

^^^ THIS! 1000%

afalzon wrote: Bill Kelso is not used to getting anything for free. We were going to pay, or stop using the art if were asked to. I repeat Mr Kredepops never contacted us before.

That certainly contradicts this:

Kredepops wrote: I've written to them, asking for some sort of compensation or that they at least stop using my art. You can't just rip any image from the net and use for your own gain. It just doesn't work that way.

As an artist myself, I can completely understand his anger and frustration, especially if someone were using my work without permission and as a means to help sell a product. Surely Kelso would feel the same if the roles were reversed?

afalzon wrote: We have been warned at a very initial stage that we will constantly be under attack if we don't succumb and offer free jackets and gifts to influential people of this forum.

I don't know where you got that misinformation from, but a free jacket request certainly didn't come from the staff. Heck, I know I never asked for one, and as Michaelson pointed out, I declined having one sent to me. As Kemosabe said, if you made a mistake with the artwork, even unbeknownst to you, rectify it and move forward. It's that simple. It's not the first time this type of thing has happened in the world. I think your tone is doing more to hurt your credibility than to promote your jackets. Sure, bad publicity is still publicity as you say, but it takes MUCH longer to recover from bad publicity than it does to let the merits of good publicity speak for itself. Let your willingness to calmly rectify things show you are an honest businessman worth doing business with rather than letting your aggressive tone portray you as a poor businessman not worth his salt. It's really on you, not the membership or the staff to make things right.

afalzon wrote:

Aren't we victim of extortion and defamation by the artist who instead of coming to us to claim his rights he chose to publicly hurt our reputation here?

Based on your usage, I'm not sure you understand the definition of the word "extortion." To extort is to demand money through the use of force or threats.

You were not forced.

You were not threatened.

It's absolutely 100% reasonable to ask for compensation for the unauthorized use (intentional or accidental) of artwork, or barring that, to demand a cease and desist.

And that's exactly what happened in this case. It's about as far removed from "extortion" as you can get.

afalzon wrote:

Well, for the record, its not the artists responsibility to contact you. Its your responsibility to contact him...that's how that works.

Secondly, who's extorting you?!?!?!? I don't see it.

Thirdly, you have a great product and you are driving potential new customers (myself included) away with each successive post. This is just BAD marketing. You made a mistake using that artwork. Own that mistake and move on. What you are doing here is not productive. Not for this site and least of all for your product...

Is that all you got?

Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few-Pythagoras



Also...since that was edited out of my quote for some reason, I would like to reiterate; Who asked you for free jackets? I really would like to know.

Guys,

A little slower please so that I can keep up

That's interesting I wonder which "influential people" issued that warning??

This is a misunderstanding. I didn't say that the influential people issued the warning. I said that we got warning that we had to please the influential people. The warning came from others.

I'm aware of you being approaching binkmeisterRick and myself about this project early this year, and we both advised you be prepared for a rocky road, as every vendor who enters those waters have had a rough go until accepted. As a matter of fact, we BOTH told you it would be a good idea to steer clear of this project if you were thin skinned.

All got quiet, and we assumed you took that advice.

I PM'd you a few months ago and asked if you had indeed dropped the project, and you told me to watch for a prototype to be forthcoming, and asked if I was interested. I told you, quote', 'No thanks, I'm not in the market for a jacket at this time.' unquote.

This is true, but the following is not the exact truth, I am sorry Michaelson.

I'm also aware of you offering binkmeisterRick a free jacket, and being turned down.

The truth is we offered a free jacket to anyone who let us borrow his jacket. This is not considered 'free'.
binkmeisterRick turned down to let us borrow his.

Your anger does not let you see clearly. Even this is not directly our fault we do not deny responsibility.
We offer to pay to consider the matter settled.
Don't you guys read what I wrote above?

Heck, I know I never asked for one, and as Michaelson pointed out, I declined having one sent to me.

We didn't offer you for free, we offered an exchange which you rejected because you didn't want to part with your jacket.

As Kemosabe said, if you made a mistake with the artwork, even unbeknownst to you, rectify it and move forward. It's that simple.

Will you guys let us rectify? or you want to crucify us first?
What's it gonna be?

In my first post today I offered a job to the artist. Don't you read?

Based on your usage, I'm not sure you understand the definition of the word "extortion." To extort is to demand money through the use of force or threats.

You were not forced.

You were not threatened.

It's absolutely 100% reasonable to ask for compensation for the unauthorized use (intentional or accidental) of artwork, or barring that, to demand a cease and desist.

And that's exactly what happened in this case. It's about as far removed from "extortion" as you can get.

If you were in our shoes, what would you do now? After all this? Pay the artist or remove his art completely?
The artist could have contacted us first and if we refused to compensate him then he could bring up the matter here, the court, anywhere he liked.

We did not deliberately caused him any damage, but he did. We could have avoided it. He held all the cards.

afalzon wrote:

That's interesting I wonder which "influential people" issued that warning??

This is a misunderstanding. I didn't say that the influential people issued the warning. I said that we got warning that we had to please the influential people. The warning came from others.

Speaking for myself, the only 'anger' I have is the fact you have continued to perpertrate this myth that 'others' continue to spread about this site. It's a lie, plain and simple, and should have never entered into the conversation with no substantiation. It was a slap in the face to every moderator and administrator of this site, past and present. Yes, that 'angers' me.

Michaelson

First of all, thank you guys for your support! I really appreciate it!

Seems like I opened Pandora's box here. Let me make it perfectly clear that my intention NEVER was to slander Bills name or rep or even extort for money or free stuff.
I never even knew about the Relic Raider jackets until today.

I'm just infuriated with the practice of stealing artwork on the www and never bothering to look for the artist. It happens all too often. The fact that my signature was removed, makes it clear that the so-called gfx artist had no intention of making me a part of this. It is extremely easy to find my contact info for this image. I only ever posted it on sideshow collectors forum, and clicking my avatar there gives you the option to contact me via email, PM or visit my website.

However if you can't find the artist, DON'T use the image. Simple as that.

It's very unfortunate that your artist didn't inform you, I didn't even know that an external artist was involved. If you'd just offered me an apology at least, everything would be fine, instead I just got a very unfriendly email which I won't share here.

I did ask for a little compensation for the continued use of my artwork, heck I'd even have settled for a small 'Artwork by ...' credit on the paper, but now I'd prefer if they'd just remove it alltogether.

Dear Michaelson,
The 'anger' comment was not directed to you in particular but to everyone who rushed into accusing us like his life depended on it.

Our customers say we have the perfect customer service. The reason is that why strive to satisfy everyone who deals with us.
We would have done the same with the artist from whom 'we stole' the artwork.
He DIDN'T NEED to come here whining.
If he came to us first we would have made him a happy man.

THERE WAS NO REASON for all this mess
That's what I am trying to explain.

afalzon wrote:
If you were in our shoes, what would you do now? After all this? Pay the artist or remove his art completely?

Here's what the decent, ethical thing for a vendor to do in this situation:

Step 1--Apologize to the Kredepops: "We did not realize it was your artwork instead of the web designer we had subcontracted. We apologize for this unintentional use of your artwork on our product."

Step 2--Pay Kredepops for the use of his artwork so far. You owe him the money, not the designer you hired who stole Kredepop's artwork. You may even want to demand a portion of your money back from the subcontracted designer

Step 3--Either make a contract with Kredepops for paying for the use of his artwork on your product from now on, or immediately cease using his artwork all together.

WHOA!!! This Kredepops guy is totally unruly and clearly out to destroy BK's business and extort them for millions of dollars!!!!


Just kidding there Kredepops...

Now that he has said that, read back through your responses here. Wow, just...wow...

afalzon wrote:

Heck, I know I never asked for one, and as Michaelson pointed out, I declined having one sent to me.

We didn't offer you for free, we offered an exchange which you rejected because you didn't want to part with your jacket.

It is true that I didn't wish to part with my jacket, but it is also true that I simply denied the offer for you to copy my jacket altogether, "free" jacket or otherwise. I was also doing my best to respectfully decline. I still have the entire correspondence in which you asked me about copying an Indy jacket in the first place. For the record, here is exactly what I wrote to you at that time:

Additionally, though I appreciate your offer of a free jacket if I were to send you one to copy, I must respectfully decline. The one jacket I own which would be worth copying has far too much sentimental value to let out of my sight, and I do not have the desire to be a "business partner" as I believe it would be a conflict of interests for myself and the site.

I don't want this to be a drag-out conflict, afalzon, but it is 100% true that we warned you that getting into this jacket would come back to haunt you.

First of all, thank you guys for your support! I really appreciate it!

Seems like I opened Pandora's box here. Let me make it perfectly clear that my intention NEVER was to slander Bills name or rep or even extort for money or free stuff.
I never even knew about the Relic Raider jackets until today.

I'm just infuriated with the practice of stealing artwork on the www and never bothering to look for the artist. It happens all too often. The fact that my signature was removed, makes it clear that the so-called gfx artist had no intention of making me a part of this. It is extremely easy to find my contact info for this image. I only ever posted it on sideshow collectors forum, and clicking my avatar there gives you the option to contact me via email, PM or visit my website.

However if you can't find the artist, DON'T use the image. Simple as that.

It's very unfortunate that your artist didn't inform you, I didn't even know that an external artist was involved. If you'd just offered me an apology at least, everything would be fine, instead I just got a very unfriendly email which I won't share here.

I did ask for a little compensation for the continued use of my artwork, heck I'd even have settled for a small 'Artwork by ...' credit on the paper, but now I'd prefer if they'd just remove it alltogether.

Hi, we would apologize and offer you money. You didn't give us the chance.
Your post caused us frustration and damage. We 'd like to think you didn't do it on purpose but it was spontaneous.
Our unfriendly message was the result of our frustration and damage.
We still intend to compensate you, satisfy you and give you more job.

We hope to make you happy enough so that you will reverse the bad publicity we suffered here because of your post.
You should have come to us first. We would have treated you with respect.

afalzon wrote:

If you were in our shoes, what would you do now? After all this? Pay the artist or remove his art completely?
The artist could have contacted us first and if we refused to compensate him then he could bring up the matter here, the court, anywhere he liked.

We did not deliberately caused him any damage, but he did. We could have avoided it. He held all the cards.

As the owner of a company, you have to be prepared for the inevitability that not all public communication is going to be positive. I understand that it probably hurts your feelings and is embarrassing as <ahem> that this was made public, but at the same time -- and this is the important part -- the artist did no wrong by posting here about it.

And perhaps you didn't initially cause him any damage deliberately, but by trying to paint his actions as "extortion" is damaging.

Also, the thing is, whether you deliberately used art that you didn't have rights to or not, the fact remains, you used art you didn't have rights to. Whether the artist himself recognized it, or someone ELSE recognized it and posted something about it doesn't matter. That's the gamble you take if you use art for which you don't 100% know where it came from (and from what you said earlier, you knew your designer took it from the Internet). How would this be any more or less damaging to your business if a total stranger said, "hey, isn't that so-and-so's art?" and this all blew up?

In other words, the damage you perceived you've been caused is not the fault of the artist.

Further, the artist would have been totally within his rights to not say anything at all, but just initiate a court case -- which would have become a matter of public record.

At least by bringing it up in here, it presents you with the opportunity to handle it gracefully and with tact.

So what would I do? Not flip out and have a public meltdown for one...

It is true that I didn't wish to part with my jacket, but it is also true that I simply denied the offer for you to copy my jacket altogether, "free" jacket or otherwise. I was also doing my best to respectfully decline. I still have the entire correspondence in which you asked me about copying an Indy jacket in the first place. For the record, here is exactly what I wrote to you at that time:

We don't have any hard feelings for you not letting us borrow your jacket.
It was your choice.

Nor do I in the least.

the artist did no wrong by posting here about it.

Yes, legally is not wrong, but morally it is where I come from.
We were one 'click' away. He could have emailed us first and we would have an 'out of court settlement' so to speak.

afalzon wrote:

THERE WAS NO REASON for all this mess
That's what I am trying to explain.

I totally understand what you're trying to explain.

I took offense at your accusation of 'influential' members taking free jackets based on a lie told to you by 'others'.

It was unprofessional, and was completely uncalled for.

Regards! Michaelson

"he who has no sins cast the first stone" is also true where I come from.

But some people here rushed into accusing Bill Kelso BEFORE LISTENING TO BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY.

I take offense at your accusation of 'influential' members taking free jackets based on a lie told to you by 'others'.

It's unprofessional, and was completely uncalled for.

I made no accusation. I said we were warned that we had to satisfy the infuential members.
Sorry if you were offended.

Nor do I in the least.

Peace.
We are here to satisfy you.
No one will leave our shop unhappy.

Let's put tonight's arguments behind us.
We 'll make it good for the artist.

afalzon wrote:...Sorry if you were offended.

That's what around here we call a "back-handed" apology: in other words, not really an apology at all. An apology would be "I'm sorry that I offended you."

Really, that's what angers many of us: no apologies whatsoever to Kredepops! You would have saved a lot of trouble in this thread if in the same initial post where you made the job offer, you had said something along the lines of: "We did not realize it was your artwork instead of the web designer we had subcontracted. We apologize for this unintentional use of your artwork on our product."

I bet you would have had great publicity on here if you had done that at the beginning. People would look here and say, "Oh, well, it wasn't intentional, and Bill Kelso is offering both an apology and a job, so what a class-act vendor!"

Thanks NES, Zuiun, Michaelson and all you great guys.

I did in fact write first through ebay's messaging system. A few hours went by and I got no response, at this point I was indeed very angry and maybe I should have waited a bit longer before posting here, but I've been through this before, people just remove the image and deny everything.

Again, I didn't mean to hurt your business judging from the pictures you do make some very nice jackets, and I believe when you say that you accepted the image from your external artist in good faith. But at the time I posted this I didn't know about the contracted artist, BTW you really shouldn't do business with that guy again. I know it's tempting to just grab anything off the internet like it's a giant free smorgasbord, but he's been paid for something I made, and that hurts my business.

I really didn't think my post would spark such an angry response, if you'd just let me know about the other artist and that you never where he'd gotten the picture from I'd totally would've let this blow over and even edited or removed my post altogether. Too bad it had to be this way

afalzon wrote:"he who has no sins cast the first stone" is also true where I come from.

But some people here rushed into accusing Bill Kelso BEFORE LISTENING TO BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY.

I take offense at your accusation of 'influential' members taking free jackets based on a lie told to you by 'others'.

It's unprofessional, and was completely uncalled for.

I made no accusation. I said we were warned that we had to satisfy the infuential members.
Sorry if you were offended.

It's true where I come from too. You threw the rock on this particular topic I was offended by.

We have been warned at a very initial stage that we will constantly be under attack if we don't succumb and offer free jackets and gifts to influential people of this forum.

But I have news for you. We were prepared to offer some, but under these circumstances there will not be any free jackets from Bill Kelso. Extortion will not be tolerated.

So, yes, I was offended, as was every moderator/administrator who has ever worked at Indygear.com, as you not only stated you had been 'warned' by 'others' of something that was a complete fabrication without checking it out for yourself first, but followed up with an accusation of extortion BASED on that 'warning'. So, yes, you did make a clear accusation.

I'll accept your half hearted apology, but with reservations.

Make things right with Kredepops is all that's expected now.

Regards! Michaelson

Really, that's what angers many of us: no apologies whatsoever to Kredepops! You would have saved a lot of trouble in this thread if in the same initial post where you made the job offer, you had said something along the lines of: "We did not realize it was your artwork instead of the web designer we had subcontracted. We apologize for this unintentional use of your artwork on our product."

I bet you would have had great publicity on here if you had done that at the beginning. People would look here and say, "Oh, well, it wasn't intentional, and Bill Kelso is offering both an apology and a job, so what a class-act vendor!"

Thanks for your advice.
We will apologize to him privately. We will offer to him our apology in words and by practical means as we originally intended before this fight has started.
Do you want us to apologize also to you for 'stealing' from him?

I said many times before that BILL KELSO is ready to settle this in an amicable way.
I said that although not directly responsible we are the ones to assume responsibity. Don't you read?
Isn't it obvious that BILL KELSO wants to rectify? I said so in my first post today.

Please stop being so hostile. We are not the enemy. We are just a vendor making jackets that will put a smile on your face everytime you wear them.

That's what around here we call a "back-handed" apology: in other words, not really an apology at all. An apology would be "I'm sorry that I offended you."

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I am sorry if I did. We don't have "back-handed" apologies here. It's either apologize or not apologize. I did apologize.

So, yes, I was offended, as was every moderator/administrator who has ever worked at Indygear.com, and you not only stated you had been 'warned' by 'others, but followed up with an accusation of extortion BASED on that 'warning'. So, yes, you did make a clear accusation.

Sorry, I said 'extortion will not be tolerated'. I didn't say you or anybody here extorted us. I meant if anyone tries to extort us we will not tolerate it. Please don't take everything personally. Bill Kelso is just the receivers of the warning and is neutral about it.

I don't want to offend anyone. There is no gain from offending anyone. On the contrary.

We offer our apologies to anyone offended and will continue our apology to the artist personally and privately.

We reserve the right for final comment.....we can only take what you write on face value, so also don't casually discount our concerns. We're going strictly by what you said.

If you were neutral, once again, you'd have never even stated what you did regarding your 'warnings from others', let alone couple it with the word 'extortion'. You did indeed make a statement based on something told to you by a 3rd party, coupled it to the 'extortion' remark, and then dropped that hammer in your post.

It is indeed best of you and Kredepops take this offline and settle in a professional and amicable manner now.

We will split this entire conversation out into a separate locked thread for record, then reopen the original 'Kelso' thread for continued discussion. Stay tuned.

Kredepops, if you need this reopened, just drop one of us a PM and we will open the door again.

Good luck.

Regards! Michaelson

Hi, just a final comment to provide some closure for those involved and those who commented and followed this thread.

The matter was solved in a friendly manner via email. Bill Kelso commissioned me to draw a new picture for them and I was paid what I asked, which is my usual fee for interior artwork for books. I've agreed that they can use the other drawing until September.

So everything worked out great in the end for both parts.