New aquisition

[TheReverend]

Through inheritance, I recieved quite an interesting gift.

My uncle passed away a few months ago and as we were cleaning out his rat's nest of a trailer, we discovered he had a cahce of guns. One of these guns was a small revolver that immediately caught my attention.

I examined it on Turkey Day, and on the barrel the inscription read:

"FCA DE ARMAS GARANTIZADAS. 1924 EIBAR"

Upon searching the internet, I found that this pistol was manufactured in Spain, as a Spanish Copy of the S & W hand ejector. It actually resembles the Colt New Service 1917 more than an HE, but it's pretty close to a perfect Indy pistol. Instead of .45 Long however, it's chambered for .32-20 Long, does anyone know anything about that round and it's effectiveness?

Here's a picture of the same model I have:




By outward appearance however, it does not look this good.

Of course, I'll have it checked out by a gunsmith before I fire this weapon. Besides, it's gonna take me a while to find ammo for it anyway.

[Cooler King]

Awesome gun! Sorry to hear about your uncle though.

That looks IDENTICAL to my Dad's Smith & Wesson .38 Special Police pistol, very cool.

[RonC]

This is a Spanish copy of a Smith & Wesson .38 Hand Ejector. The ejector rod is free-standing, more like a Colt Police Positive, but the remainder of the revolver is very similar to a S&W.

[Pyroxene]

I like those grips.

[Michaelson]

Personally, I wouldn't shoot it on a bet. Mechanically it's a copy of several companies designs, but the metalurgy in these old Spanish revolvers is less than subpar. Even with low pressure ammo, it's not a safe choice. 32.20 ammo, though not a round you'll find at Wal-Mart, is still available, as it was a popular round in old Winchester rifles, and so this pistol/rifle combo round was a pretty standard thing at the turn of the 20th Century, though originating in the late 19th century. The round 'name' was the old practice of stating what the bullet caliber was (.32 caliber), and was over 20 grains of black powder (.32-20) Though smokeless powder replaced black powder at the end of the 19th century, the designation was kept as a describer. Great varment round, lousy self defense round in any form. Notice the big, bold, black lettering in your picture, though...DO NOT SHOOT. They were not fit together that well, and usually the timing of the cylinder to barrel was off enough to shave lead with every round fired. If you're going to shoot this old bugger, wear safety glasses and a shooting glove. Better yet, just use it as a conversation piece and allow it a well deserved retirement. It isn't worth losing a valuable part of the anatomy. Regards. Michaelson

[cliffhanger]

My Indy/family heirloom is a Smith and Wesson HEJ .32-20. Besides the advice given "do not shoot", I wouldn't use it too much even I could. As Michaelson stated, .32-.20 is still around, but REALLY frikin' expensive. We're talking $50 or more for a box of 40-50. I don't know the current price.

But, if you ever get a chance to, .32-.20 is a good round to shoot. To me, it feels like a REALLY powerful .22, not too much kick, but enough to feel it, and loud as heck (though that may just be the revolver). But also as Michaelson stated, not good for self defense.

Just my 2 cents...

Peace,
Cliffhanger

P.S. Oh by the way, nice piece! I too would hang on to it for collector's purposes.

[RonC]

Cliffhanger, you can get .32-20 for about $20 a box from Black Hills Ammunition. It is once again becoming a popular cartridge with the Cowboy Action Shooting crowd (of which I am a part!). These loads are quite mild, and would be perfectly safe for use in your S&W, once it has been thoroughly checked out by a competent gunsmith.

[Michaelson]

The Smiths ARE safe to shoot (same mechanism as the old MP, now called the model 10), just be sure to have a competent gunsmith look her over. Just don't shoot that Spanish revolver. Regards. Michaelson

[cliffhanger]

Roc C and Michaelson...thanks! My gunsmith gave me that price...$20 sounds more reasonable. I will check out Black Hills Ammunition, and have the gunsmoth go over it (it needs a rebluing DESPERATELY). Perhaps in the Spring (too cold out now) I will do some shooting with the ol' gal.

Thanks!
Cliffhanger

[RonC]

Cliffhanger, you'll truly enjoy shooting that old Smith! The .32-20 cartridge is a fine little cartridge.

[cliffhanger]

Oh I've shot it before, using a box of cartridges that had been around awhile (probably not the safest thing to do), and it performed flawlessly.

It is a great round to shoot. Again, not good for self-defense, but a little more kick than a plinking-caliber gun.

I'm glad someone else knows well enough about the .32-.20...I didn't know they were popular with the Cowboy Action Shooting crowd. Neat!

Peace and thanks once again,
Cliff

[TheReverend]

Yeah, I really don't plan on firing the old thing, just looked great with my Indy Gear.


Come to think of it, I don't know why my uncle ever kept the old thing! He wasn't much of an Indy Fan. Oh well, it's now part of my collection, I guess.

[IndyMac]

I am wondering about the caliber designation on this gun. You list it as 32-20 Long. There is the 32-20 and also a 32 S&W Long, but they are not the same round nor are they interchangeable. Just curious.

Anyone using old ammo for the 32-20 should excersize care as I believe a high velocity version was made which was for use in rifles only.

[Michaelson]

It was all marketing. 32-20 has been explained as to it's reasons. 32 Smith and Wesson Long was Smith's answer to an introduced round that Colt created called the 32 Long Colt. They made it specifically for the new and improved Colt Police Positive. Smith created the 32 S&W Long (essentially the exact same round, just different bullet weights), and for some odd reason, the 32 Long Colt went away, leaving the Smith round standing after the dust cleared. You can still find the old Colt Police Positives out there in pawn shops, but chambered (and marked) for the .32 Smith and Wesson Long! I know, I used to own one. VERY low pressure round, but fairly accurate. There was a resurrengence of interest in the round in the early 80's with reloaders, and componenets were again available to make target rounds, as correctly loaded, the old 32 long was a tack driver, and a small game 'getter', but not much good for anything else. The irony of the whole thing was that the round was originally created for police work at the end of the 19th century, replacing the old 32 short pocket revolvers that police officers were carrying. Teddy Roosevelt, who was the NYC police commissioner at the time, insisted on upgrading the archaeic firearms the police departments were carrying, as well as creating a standard round for all guns, and issued through their stations, rather than purchased out of their own pockets. Why he chose the 32 still escapes me, but then later on in the decade he was touting a Colt navy 38 Long double action (worse round EVER made in my opinion) up San Juan Hill with success, so what do I know. Ok, enough useless trivia for one posting.....Regards. Michaelson

[Trebor]

Michaelson, the breadth and depth of your firearms knowledge amazes me! I consider myself rather highly informed when it comes to firearms and archiac gun trivia, but I bow to the master. I learn something new from almost every one of your posts! Keep it up!

The time from the turn of the 19th Century to the begining of WWII is an incrediably fascinating era in firearms development. Lot's of blind alley's in load development and gun design, lot's of classic designs were introduced (1911 anyone?) and lots of things that were new then that are being rediscovered now.

Why he chose the 32 still escapes me, but then later on in the decade he was touting a Colt navy 38 Long double action (worse round EVER made in my opinion) up San Juan Hill with success, so what do I know. Ok, enough useless trivia for one posting.....Regards. Michaelson

Did you know that Teddy's "San Juan Hill" gun was stolen from the National Park Service while it was on display several years back? It's still missing and the Park Service is looking for any info as to it's whereabouts. It's a crying shame that someone would steal a piece of history like that. Not only did Teddy carry it up the hill, the gun itself had been recovered from that sunken Battleship U.S. Maine.

[Carolina Tom]

I have a Colt 32-20 Army Special (1898 patent) which I still shoot from time to time. It was reblued before I got it so its a shooter, rather than a collector's piece. It is fun and accurate to shoot, as well as looking really cool! It has the black hard rubber grips with the rampant colt on them. I really need to get a flap holster for it-Regards-Tom

[knibs7]

I agree, those grips look NICE

NIBS

[carebear]

I disagree about the .32-20's utility for self-defense.

All that follows is my semi-educated opinion.

The .32-20 is not the same critter as the .32 Long, it has far more energy given that it's coming out of a revolver about 2-300 fps faster.

It's pushing a, what, 100 gr. round at about 1000 fps from a short barrel? That's a power level right in with modern .38 Spc or .32 Magnum rounds that are considered more than sufficient for SD. Heck, the 9mm in a standard loading is only pushing a 115 grain round at 1200 or so and that's an effective round.

The .32-20 was used effectively for self defense for decades, even with inferior LRN ammo. If it was my only pistol I certainly wouldn't feel "under-gunned", though I would eventually get an "old-pistol-safe" loading with a modern hollowpoint made up. Probably check with a local Cowboy Action Shooter to do it.

Once you are in the 100 gr bullet wt. around 1000 FPS, the bullet design becomes the key to effectiveness. Comparing old .32-anything lead round nose with a modern JHP is as fallacious as considering only the 9mm FMJ round when discussing that calibers utility for SD.

I'm not making a dime off the following shill...

The new .327 Magnum round from Ruger has only a bit higher numbers, 100 gr at 1400, just in a straight-walled and more easily reloaded case and it's not being derided by anyone.

You can fit 6 rounds of a .32 in J-frame as opposed to 5 .38 +p's and get as much energy on the target per round with much less recoil. In a K-frame we could be looking at a 7-8 shooter and maybe 9 in an N-frame.

I'm excited to see that cartridge in a light little rifle, a modern .32-20-type pistol/rifle combo for the modern adventurer.

As you may guess, I like the little .32's for some reason.

[Carolina Tom]

"Effective" or not-I would hate to get shot with it! Getting shot would be a major setback for most people, no matter what they are shot with, especially if hit in the torso. I know other guns/rounds are much more effective, such as the .45 ACP. However, I have shot the 32-20 and would not feel unarmed with it. I had an old sheriff tell me once that more people have been killed with .22s than with anything else. That was back in the 70's, so that statistic may not be accurate anymore, if it ever was. Black Hills makes some good rounds for these 32-20 guns. But you guys are right, there are better self-defense rounds out there-Regards-Tom

[BOINKFFD]

Very cool. I love old guns that get passed down thought the generations.

[Rambler]

"Effective" or not-I would hate to get shot with it! Getting shot would be a major setback for most people, no matter what they are shot with, especially if hit in the torso. I know other guns/rounds are much more effective, such as the .45 ACP. However, I have shot the 32-20 and would not feel unarmed with it. I had an old sheriff tell me once that more people have been killed with .22s than with anything else. That was back in the 70's, so that statistic may not be accurate anymore, if it ever was. Black Hills makes some good rounds for these 32-20 guns. But you guys are right, there are better self-defense rounds out there-Regards-Tom

This is certainly not meant to be a political post; so, here goes:
The increasing caliber and power of what are the common sizes of handgun cartridges has been increasing with the ability of medical advances in antibiotics, techniques and transportation of wounded such that they survive being shot. More simply put, if you receive poor or too late medical care, a small caliber gunshot wound is more likely to eventually kill you anyway due to blood-loss and or infection. Today, people survive being shot on the street or battlefield with 9mm or .45ACP whereas a .22LR or .32Short might have killed one in "Indy"s era".
Some of what I do at work involves the development of body armor for the US miltary; blood loss from relatively small projectiles (including things other than bullets such as so-called "shrapnel") is one of the main problems they are trying to prevent.
Only in the movies do the bad guys always one-shot-drop from a handgun. I still like old, cheap, often small-caliber handguns as collectors pieces. Your Spanish gun is a great example of the many different copies of well known brands that were made. These satisfied a market for those who wanted a name-brand gun but could not afford it. Considering that it has never been truly cheap to fire a lot of rounds in any caliber except maybe .22 rimfires, most of these cheap guns were seldom fired, thus giving the illusion many decades later that they are in better shape than they really are.

[carebear]

Rambler,

Good post and thank you for your efforts on our soldiers' behalf.

Do you really think "lethality" is the major factor in non-military usage?

To put it in Indy-reference civilian terms, if Indy needs to stop a swordsman, it doesn't matter to him if the guy goes to the big backlot in the sky in 5 minutes or 5 hours, as long as he is no longer a threat "right now".

Not every threat Indy or the rest of us would run into is a drugged-up Thuggee or motivated Nazi, but those types were certainly around throughout the 19th and 20th Centuries and yet "minor" calibers were used effectively for self-defense.

I think the trend toward larger calibers is both practical (you could fit a lot more round into a much more convenient gun as time went by, so why not increase your odds of stopping the Thuggee) but also perhaps an American tendency to believing the marketing hype on what is "necessary" (usually bigger and faster in all things).

I guess my conclusion would be that the .32's will still do the job most of the time, as they always have, but there's no reason to not to pick the Bapty if given the choice.

[Indiana Joosse]

All discussion aside, it's a great looking gun.

[McHale]

Hi!
very good acquisition

pics is my Trocaola revolver copie Espagnol to Smith et Wesson.

Regards

McHale