Club Obi Wan

In my various searches within the bullwhip section over the past several months, I haven't found a thread outlining the various cracks used in the films. So, what are the various whip cracks and wraps that appear in the Indy films, including the deleted whip scenes of which we know (such as the whip usage deleted from the cemetery scene in Crystal Skull)?

Daren indicated that the crack Ford used to get the rifle in the warehouse scene at the beginning of Crystal Skull was a "Forward Vertical." What about other scenes? What combination of cracks does Indy use in the Streets of Cairo when keeping the attackers at bay while simultaneously startling the horse drawing the hay wagon Marion was on?

So, here's a potential list format we could use for each film--let me know what I missed:

Raiders of the Lost Ark
Rainforest pistol disarm:
Peru Temple swing:
Toht disarm in Raven Bar:
Streets of Cairo:
(were there some whip scenes I'm forgetting?)

Temple of Doom
Elephant statue swing:
swordsman disarm:
Willy wrap:

Last Crusade
Circus train lion:
Castle swing:
Henry, Sr., leg wrap on train:


Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
Area 51 Hangar--rifle disarm: Forward Vertical
Area 51--rafter swing:
Deleted Cemetery Scene:

Whip experts: sound off!

Best wishes,
Nebraska S.

[quote="NES"]In my various searches within the bullwhip section over the past several months, I haven't found a thread outlining the various cracks used in the films. So, what are the various whip cracks and wraps that appear in the Indy films, including the deleted whip scenes of which we know (such as the whip usage deleted from the cemetery scene in Crystal Skull)?

Daren indicated that the crack Ford used to get the rifle in the warehouse scene at the beginning of Crystal Skull was a "Forward Vertical." What about other scenes? What combination of cracks does Indy use in the Streets of Cairo when keeping the attackers at bay while simultaneously startling the horse drawing the hay wagon Marion was on?

So, here's a potential list format we could use for each film--let me know what I missed:

Raiders of the Lost Ark
Rainforest pistol disarm: THIS IS EDITED, SO IT COULD BE A NUMBER OF THINGS, BUT I'LL SUGGEST A VERSION OF THE FLICK OR FORWARD VERTICAL. BUT SINCE THE WHIP SEEMS TO "WIND UP" FIRST, IT SEEMS LIKE POSSIBLY A TWO CRACK VOLLEY. I'VE CONSIDERED PUTTING TOGETHER A VIDEO EXPLAINING THE POSSIBILITIES OF THIS CRACK.
Peru Temple swing: (EDITED AND VIRTUALLY UNSEEN) RISING FORWARD VERTICAL
Toht disarm in Raven Bar: (EDITED AND TOTALLY UNSEEN) FORWARD VERTICAL OR FLICK
Streets of Cairo: UNDERHAND FLICK, FOLLOWED BY CATTLEMAN'S CRACK; VERY ROUGH FORWARD VERTICLE . . .
(were there some whip scenes I'm forgetting?)
INDY USES THE WHIP TO LASH AROUND THE JACKAL, MUCH IN THE WAY HE WRAPS BRANCH IN THE TEMPLE SWING

Temple of Doom
INDY USES THE WHIP TO STRANGLE THE THUGGEE ASSASSIN, THEN USES A SIDEARM CRACK TO GET A NECK WRAP
Elephant statue swing: RISING FORWARD VERTICAL, LIKE THE TEMPLE SWING AND JACKAL LASH
swordsman disarm: FORWARD VERTICAL
Willy wrap: SIDEARM CRACK

Last Crusade
Circus train lion: AMATEURISH (PURPOSELY SO) CATTLEMAN'S CRACK
Castle swing: RISING FORWARD VERTICAL
Henry, Sr., leg wrap on train:FORWARD VERTICAL


Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
Area 51 Hangar--rifle disarm: Forward Vertical
Area 51--rafter swing: RISING OVERHAND DIAGONAL
Deleted Cemetery Scene: FORWARD VERTICAL, EXACTLY LIKE THE RIFLE DISARM . . .

Whip experts: sound off!


EH?

DAREN HENRY W

Cool idea for a thread!

What's the difference between a Forward Vertical and a Rising Forward Vertical?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jeff wrote:Cool idea for a thread!

What's the difference between a Forward Vertical and a Rising Forward Vertical?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

A forward vertical goes straight out, toward the level of someone's shoulder, like for disarming them of their weapon, but a rising forward vertical is being throw up towards a target like a tree branch, etc. Otherwise its the same crack. Its just where you point it.

DHW

OK, so question B, what's the difference between a forward vertical and a cattleman's crack?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jeff wrote:OK, so question B, what's the difference between a forward vertical and a cattleman's crack?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

In this video, I explain the Forward Vertical and the Flick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSda5qJbBW4

And here is Adam's Winrich's video explaining the Cattleman's Crack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUVTvmwFBZk

And his video on The Flick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od7JBEIQj7M


The Forward Vertical and Flick are somewhat similar in that they force the whip into a hairpin turn, kind of a like a sideways U or a C, like this C___. But a Cattleman's crack has the whip completing changing directions, which causes the whip to form a loop. Both force the cracker at the end of the whip to slash through the air forcing the shock wave which creates the sonic boom.

Daren

Great idea for a thread, NES! I've been wanting to ask about the SoC cracks specifically, and I'm surprised there wasn't already a thread about this. The only thing I've found so far "in the wild" is this--http://thewhipstudio.com/faq.htm--but doesn't go into much detail. Thanks for the great info, Daren!

Oildale Jones wrote:Great idea for a thread, NES! I've been wanting to ask about the SoC cracks specifically, and I'm surprised there wasn't already a thread about this. The only thing I've found so far "in the wild" is this--http://thewhipstudio.com/faq.htm--but doesn't go into much detail. Thanks for the great info, Daren!

In the past I've seen youtube vids on the SOC cracks, sometimes referred to as the "Cairo Flash".

James Maxwell and McFly both have youtube vids on the crack . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-oWQN-d89E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDEKwlWId2k

I've been meaning to get around to a video on that particular crack. I figure I'll break it down a bit like McFly does, but then also offer some variations . . .

DHW

In Fact, it's funny that NES brought this up, because I've been thinking about an entire video (or perhaps a series) on all these cracks.

But, as you can see, IMHO, there are actually only a few variations of a small number of cracks/throws/wraps.

If/when I do it, I really want to incorporate some discussion of the cracks that HF is practicing on the "Making of Raiders of the Lost Ark" VHS. Some of what he was practicing to fight the swordsman is pretty cool.

DHW

Thanks for the links. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the cracks juxtaposing movie footage with your own demonstration. (Nice, but not vital.)

DarenHenryW wrote:

Oildale Jones wrote:Great idea for a thread, NES! I've been wanting to ask about the SoC cracks specifically, and I'm surprised there wasn't already a thread about this. The only thing I've found so far "in the wild" is this--http://thewhipstudio.com/faq.htm--but doesn't go into much detail. Thanks for the great info, Daren!

In the past I've seen youtube vids on the SOC cracks, sometimes referred to as the "Cairo Flash".

James Maxwell and McFly both have youtube vids on the crack . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-oWQN-d89E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDEKwlWId2k

I've been meaning to get around to a video on that particular crack. I figure I'll break it down a bit like McFly does, but then also offer some variations . . .

DHW

Jeeze - it's been a while since I've made (or SEEN) one of my whip cracking videos. I think you should definitely make a new one, Daren. Mine is really not that great unless you already know what you're doing!

I like your explanations of the various cracks though - I think you've pretty much got it. Indy doesn't really do any exciting / complex whip work to begin with. If you guys can nail down just a few of the basic cracks (circus crack, forward flick, side arm, underarm), you'll be able to do anything he can! If you learn something like the overhead crack, then you're already into extra credit!

Shane

Oildale Jones wrote:Thanks for the links. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the cracks juxtaposing movie footage with your own demonstration. (Nice, but not vital.)

I would LOVE to do that, but I don't have the skills (and I don't think the tools) to edit movie clips from DVD's along side footage I've shot.

I suppose that requires Adobe Premiere or something comparable, right? A program I don't have. I have iMovie, which doesn't do that, does it?

I have a friend who might be able to help me with it, and I really think it would be fun. Show the movie clip of say the "Cairo Flash", then show me demonstrating it from all the same angles, maybe even have a couple of "thugs" handy. Then I could break it down for people to see as a lesson.

Same thing with the Thuggee neck wrap and sword disarm from TOD. I can do all these cracks and wraps, and it would be cool to do.

DHW

McFly wrote:

DarenHenryW wrote:

Oildale Jones wrote:Great idea for a thread, NES! I've been wanting to ask about the SoC cracks specifically, and I'm surprised there wasn't already a thread about this. The only thing I've found so far "in the wild" is this--http://thewhipstudio.com/faq.htm--but doesn't go into much detail. Thanks for the great info, Daren!

In the past I've seen youtube vids on the SOC cracks, sometimes referred to as the "Cairo Flash".

James Maxwell and McFly both have youtube vids on the crack . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-oWQN-d89E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDEKwlWId2k

I've been meaning to get around to a video on that particular crack. I figure I'll break it down a bit like McFly does, but then also offer some variations . . .

DHW

Jeeze - it's been a while since I've made (or SEEN) one of my whip cracking videos. I think you should definitely make a new one, Daren. Mine is really not that great unless you already know what you're doing!

I like your explanations of the various cracks though - I think you've pretty much got it. Indy doesn't really do any exciting / complex whip work to begin with. If you guys can nail down just a few of the basic cracks (circus crack, forward flick, side arm, underarm), you'll be able to do anything he can! If you learn something like the overhead crack, then you're already into extra credit!

Shane

Don't be so modest, Shane! You explain it very well in your video! I learned a thing or two from it back in the day when I was still learning! Seriously.

But I agree with you, even though HF could do an overhead crack (there is footage of him practicing it in Raiders as well as TOD documentary footage), he never does it in any of the films. Too bad . . .

DHW

Daren might need some help building his new prop: a 1:1 Cairo hay cart.

Oildale Jones wrote:Thanks for the links. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the cracks juxtaposing movie footage with your own demonstration. (Nice, but not vital.)

I'd like to see a "super cut" of all the Indy whip action. Make it happen, Internet!

(Don't forget the cracks/wraps from Young Indy: Curse of the Jackal!)

Oildale Jones wrote:Daren might need some help building his new prop: a 1:1 Cairo hay cart.

Nah, I was thinking I'd grab my wife and just throw her . . . She'll probably just fall, I guess.

Wait, I better re-think this . . .

DHW

Thanks for all the great info, Daren!

One question: with the Thug-gee disarm in TOD, I got the impression that the whip throw/wrap was at kind of an angle, almost diagonal. Am I remembering wrong?

Best wishes,
Nebraska S.

NES wrote:Thanks for all the great info, Daren!

One question: with the Thug-gee disarm in TOD, I got the impression that the whip throw/wrap was at kind of an angle, almost diagonal. Am I remembering wrong?

Best wishes,
Nebraska S.

Thanks, Nebraska!

No, you aren't wrong, I'd say it was more (gulp!) Harrison that was wrong. That crack is best thrown very straight, as he does it in CS. I think the angle was just more due to the fact that Harrison was trying not to hit the guy in the face (though, conveniently, his face was pretty well covered!)



I don't think this photo is a screen grab, but probably more a photo just taken during shooting. You see how Harrison is REALLY concentrating, and the whip IS making a sort of strange, crooked loop, but I don't think he is intentionally shooting for a diagonal throw. I think he's just doing his best.

Of course, HF is also throwing the whip to the Thuggee's RIGHT arm, which is more dangerous than if he had thrown it to his LEFT (because of the way whip travels). This also accounts for the slight diagonal, but the point is, the straighter you throw the whip, the more likely you are to get a perfect wrap over a wrist.


This is HF performing a "Forward Vertical"



DHW

Thanks, Daren--I was thinking of exactly that photo! I'm wondering how much of the angle in that TOD scene was due to the relative position which Spielberg wanted the actors in that scene, and Ford was trying to make due the best he could. That sure is a wonky-looking loop he has going there!

Best wishes,
Nebraska S.

NES wrote:Thanks, Daren--I was thinking of exactly that photo! I'm wondering how much of the angle in that TOD scene was due to the relative position which Spielberg wanted the actors in that scene, and Ford was trying to make due the best he could. That sure is a wonky-looking loop he has going there!

Best wishes,
Nebraska S.

Wonky is right . . .

But hey, it looks DARN cool in the film, eh?

DHW

Don't forget the periscope.

There was a small model made during the Raiders production of the German sub with a small fugure of Indy riding the periscope.
It can be seen when the sub approaches the Island.

Now to my knowledge Indy only took a gun when he left Marion in the ships cabin to go check on why the engines stopped
BUT,,,
In the Indiana Jones Handbook there are directions for using a whip to tie yourself to a periscope as Indy did in this situation.

Sorry fellas, I just had to THROW some useless trivia out there to CRACK you up

-Dusty

Ha! Nice work, Dusty!

Well, while we're at it, let's not forget the magic whip during the truck chase: He uses the wrist loop to hook the whip under the axel, but when he's being dragged, he's holding . . . THE HANDLE!!! Ta-da!

But seriously, we did forget the wrap around the hanging light in TOD just before he jumps into the mine car. It's another rising overhand diagonal, pretty much the same as in CS when he falls into the truck. In TOD it's a bit more sidearm though.

DHW

Let's not also forget throwing out the whip handle to Mac and Indy wrapping the whip around his own hand. Would that be called the "Self-Wrap"?

DarenHenryW wrote:This is HF performing a "Forward Vertical"

With a really nice example of DeLongis form, you might add! The Mysterious floating left arm seems to be a side effect of Anthony's style, I think. But if you're a beginner reading this, it's important to notice Harrison's whip-arm is perfectly in line with that side of his body and not drifting out away from him. He shouldn't be aiming at the floor, though maybe he wanted to aim under the camera, so as not to block his million dollar face...


Daren - I'm glad my video(s) were able to teach you something though! I look up to you as a whip cracker, so I'm proud to hear I helped! Maybe I should have thrown out some bad videos about targeting, and I would have won those whips at the QM 2 years ago.

I agree also about the angle on that ToD Thuggee wrap. I know if I was wrapping somebody's right arm and was being filmed, I'd be a little nervous.

Shane

McFly wrote:

DarenHenryW wrote:This is HF performing a "Forward Vertical"

With a really nice example of DeLongis form, you might add! The Mysterious floating left arm seems to be a side effect of Anthony's style, I think. But if you're a beginner reading this, it's important to notice Harrison's whip-arm is perfectly in line with that side of his body and not drifting out away from him. He shouldn't be aiming at the floor, though maybe he wanted to aim under the camera, so as not to block his million dollar face...


Daren - I'm glad my video(s) were able to teach you something though! I look up to you as a whip cracker, so I'm proud to hear I helped! Maybe I should have thrown out some bad videos about targeting, and I would have won those whips at the QM 2 years ago.

I agree also about the angle on that ToD Thuggee wrap. I know if I was wrapping somebody's right arm and was being filmed, I'd be a little nervous.

Shane

You know, I was aware of you and your whip skills before you were aware of me! But I'm flattered, thank you!

As for the "Delongis" arm, you mean like this?



That goofy arm is something I've worked on lowering . . . But if I'm not conscious of it, it floats up there.

DHW

No way! More like this:



And there you are in the background, being all critical. But before this turns into the Daren and McFly thread... Our arms are all pretty much the same; sometimes my elbow is bent, and lately my hand sticks out in front more than it does to the side, but I've noticed it always floats... I've kind of embraced it as my style though. I wonder actually if that floating arm appears in other people's styles, and I'm only noticing it now. It's interesting to think about. It might be fun to see how Harrison's form changed from RotLA-LC to KotCS, and see if his floating arm is consistent in all 4 or even just in CS. Maybe a topic for another thread.

Shane

How about this one?





or this?



YEAH!!!!!

And just to keep ourselves on topic for a sec, both of these are examples of the Forward Vertical . . .



DHW

PS I just noticed I'm making the exact same face in both photos, where my mouth looks like a little bit crooked . . . interesting.
Great! Now I have TWO things to be self-conscious about when I crack my whip!

DHW

I think HF likes the arm-up pose:





But then...





When I started learning, I tried to keep my left arm sort of parallel to the ground, as in the last picture, but lately I've found my left hand up near my chin in the guard position. It's a more natural position for me and affords at least some protection. (I think it's a carry-over from boxing and defensive shooting.) But I suppose if you're whipping very enthusiastically, your arm is going to go wherever it needs to to keep your balance.



Daren, I noticed that in your last video your hand is in front of your chest and/or face, and I think at one point you actually deflect the thong.

I just watched it again, and I'd have to disagree. I think in my latest video, the Indiana Jones Whip Collection video, my left hand stays more out in front of my chest and face, like the last two HF pics, and the one of you. It's definitely NOT doing that way out there, slightly effeminate (not's that there's anything wrong with that!) floating arm thing. Sometimes I seem to be guarding my face a little or something, but I think, like you, its a defensive stance that I've probably developed over the last year and a half in karate class.


DHW

I meant in the guard.

DarenHenryW wrote:I just watched it again, and I'd have to disagree. I think in my latest video, the Indiana Jones Whip Collection video, my left hand stays more out in front of my chest and face, like the last two HF pics, and the one of you. It's definitely NOT doing that way out there, slightly effeminate (not's that there's anything wrong with that!) floating arm thing. Sometimes I seem to be guarding my face a little or something, but I think, like you, its a defensive stance that I've probably developed over the last year and a half in karate class.


DHW

I've not done any karate or martial arts or anything, and I naturally tend to do that whip cracking also ( holding my arm over my

chest or near my chin ). I can never keep it to my side! When I was teaching a couple friends whip cracking they kept teasing me

about that I never even realized I had done it...

Oildale Jones wrote:I meant in the guard.

Gotcha.

DHW

Edited above to clarify. Wasn't sure if my last response was even decipherable (it was late). What I was trying to say is that we share similar "guard" positions with the non-whip arm. In fact, someone asked on McFly's video why he (and others) keep the arm up; was it to protect the heart?

For what any of that is worth.

I'm guilty of placing my arm across my chest as well....

It is just feels natural and is where my arm wants to be when I'm cracking a whip.


Ps. This year, the matched pair of PH's WILL be mine, all MINE!!!

Everybody does that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kolD7hOllhc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I also can't lose that habit, I just can't control my arm.

Oildale Jones wrote:Edited above to clarify. Wasn't sure if my last response was even decipherable (it was late). What I was trying to say is that we share similar "guard" positions with the non-whip arm. In fact, someone asked on McFly's video why he (and others) keep the arm up; was it to protect the heart?

For what any of that is worth.

I understand now, of course. And yes, it was late. I'm still tired. At first I thought you were saying that in my video my arm was floating out there like it is in my two older pics, like the first two of HF. But, yeah, my arm definitely does not hang loosely at my side. That, in it itself seems unnatural and awkward. Having my arm/hand out in front of my chest, or occasionally my face, seems like a better alternative to the "ballet dancer" pose.

DHW

Listen, guys, there's nothing to feel guilty about. It's a completely natural thing. (It's also the smartest thing from a combatives standpoint.) Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Oildale Jones wrote:Listen, guys, there's nothing to feel guilty about. It's a completely natural thing. (It's also the smartest thing from a combatives standpoint.) Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

I agree. Like I said, it seems normal to me. I'm only slightly embarrassed about the floating hand; the defensive position seems right. And a dead arm hanging limp wouldn't look right, or feel right, at all.

DHW

I think I have floating arm syndrome while cracking. Especially when doing the forward flick.

I find that when i'm concentrating....like trying to hit a target or focusing on a point, I tend to get the out there floating arm. but when I am just cracking with no focused point, my arm goes into the defensive position. I would think that it should be opposite.....things that make me go hmmmmmm...

Gorak wrote:I find that when i'm concentrating....like trying to hit a target or focusing on a point, I tend to get the out there floating arm. but when I am just cracking with no focused point, my arm goes into the defensive position. I would think that it should be opposite.....things that make me go hmmmmmm...

No, I think that's about right.

Your arm floats away from your body when you're concentrating on a target because you know exactly where the whip will go. When randomly doing whip cracks without a focused target, your arm goes into defensive position.

OR

Maybe it's the motion of the flick that brings the arm out. When I'm doing the overhead crack my arm is closer to my body.

One quick aside about the Cairo flash, and I know this has been discussed before somewhere, is the lifting of the right foot when the whip moves past the body for the first flick. I've tried with and without, and with is much better IMO -It allows the whip to stay much closer to the body, effectively moving through an area where the body should be taking up space. Keeps the form tighter and the whip (hopefully), moving in a straight line (always a good thing in narrow spaces).

Sorry I can't find the clip, but you all know the scene so...
Cheers!