Wested side strap changes...when?.....why?

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:55 pm

Hi everyone,
I just asked this same question in another topic...but I think it deserves some discussion...

Looking at the newer shots of the Wested jackets I noticed that there are some changes in the side straps.

I bought my Raiders Wested in 1999 and the side straps are NOT stitched on the outside of the back panel/flap. They're sewn underneath.

Question: when did Wested start sewing the side straps onto instead of underneath the back flap? Why?

Anyway, if someone could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it.

Cheers,

Sebas

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:29 pm

Did they change because they were asked to?

Al

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 10:52 am

"Evolutionary improvement"?

I thought the whole point/attraction of these jackets is that they are an exact duplicate and/or reprodution of the screen-used "Raiders" jacket.

So the question remains: What are the side straps like on the original Harrison Ford "Raiders" jacket. Stitched over or under the back flap?

Please advise, all you Wested experts out there.

Cheers,
Sebas

P.S: Personally, I like the way the straps are executed on my jacket, (underneath), Why? Becuase the back flap has a straight or smooth look since there's nothing sewn onto it.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:54 am

What 'I' see on the Raiders jackets is the same X-box pattern that Peter and Co. were using all along. I can't find any pics of a Raiders jacket with the current configuration. I've asked and nobody can seem to find any to post either. Wested made this change at the same time the newer, slim patterns were brought about. This pic is the best one I've seen to support the x-box stitch. If you have the American Cinematographer issue, you can make it out in the original pic alot better. Take out your magnifying glass.

IndyMo · Post by **IndyMo** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:56 am

Not being a "Jacket Expert" per se it would be my understanding that while most of us are looking for a screen accurate Jacket we do have to consider day to day use. As mentioned in older threads, we Americans are always looking for Jackets that wear like iron with long lasting durability. So from Peters standpoint, its probably difficult to produce the jacket that was made over 23 years ago for Raiders and have it made to be as durable from a retail stanpoint. Just my .02

Mike

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:16 am

Hi guys,
Okay, I understand by what you mean in terms of "evolutionary improvements" by way of better stitching, sturdier zippers, better quality lining, etc. In other words, these are subtle or "behind the scenes" improvements.

However, stitching the straps on the outside of the back flap is (to me) an obvious aesthetic change which alters part of what could be said to be "screen accurate" look of the jacket. I mean, imagine if you will, that Peter put the metal press studs on the OUTSIDE of the cargo pockets claiming that it improves the durability of the jacket.

Do you see my point? I'm all for improvements on the jacket, provided that they don't change the origial patterns, designs, that's all.

Sebas

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:14 pm

I'm sure that MOST people are happy with a good enough jacket; it doesn't need to be 100% screen accurate. And, most people wear these jackets a lot, so they need to be durable. However, if you really want a screen accurate jacket and the stitching is different then the new westeds, I'm sure that Peter can accomodate.

Looking at it frmo his point of view: if he makes a quality product that is as strong as it can be, whilst sacrificing some of the minor details, and thus making the standard jacket much better for the majority of orders, then he'll probobly do that.

Regards,

Farn

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:25 pm

The original 'in the seam' straps that we were receiving in the mid 90's were only tacked AT the seam, and had a tendency to pull out after a perid of time. The strap was also located to low on the side entry pockets, making hand entry practically impossible (unless you had real tiny hands). The next iteration was to raise the straps, but make the connection of the strap to the back panel of the jacket with a box seam, like you find on U.S. Wings jackets. This is MUCH stronger connection , and with the exception of the 'X' box, is also what you find on FS Expeditions, which was correct to stunt men's jackets. The latest iteration has the strap entering the seam, but extending into the lining, making it stronger, and MUCH less likely to pull OUT of the seam, as experienced with the straps of the early 90's. So, box sewn or seam sewn, both types shared screen time in the film....they just appeared on different jackets, and for different reasons. The stronger of the two were used on stunt jackets, and the seam sewn versions seemed to appear on jackets not so 'strenously' used ON screen. EIther way, you're right regarding screen accuracy jackets and straps. Regards. Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:07 pm

Well put, Michaelson. I have one Wested, my first one from a few years ago, which happens to be my favorite. It's not correct in more than enough ways in terms of screen accuracy, but being the most worn in and because it was a gift from my wife, it's my favorite one I've owned. I also bought another for which I wanted complete screen accuracy to what I see on screen and prefer and Wested delivered.
Bottom line is Wested will do it however you want so just make up your mind and go with it.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:22 pm

Michaelson wrote:

"So, box sewn or seam sewn, both types shared screen time in the film....they just appeared on different jackets, and for different reasons."

So, the question I have is where in Raiders can we see the seam sewn straps? Screen caps anyone?

Have a better one,
Sebas

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:49 pm

agent5 wrote:What 'I' see on the Raiders jackets is the same X-box pattern that Peter and Co. were using all along. I can't find any pics of a Raiders jacket with the current configuration. I've asked and nobody can seem to find any to post either. Wested made this change at the same time the newer, slim patterns were brought about. This pic is the best one I've seen to support the x-box stitch. If you have the American Cinematographer issue, you can make it out in the original pic alot better. Take out your magnifying glass.

I can't see the pic...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:54 pm

Indiana Strones wrote: I can't see the pic...

To be fair, that pic was posted five years ago with the rest of this thread, so it's not too surprising the link is broken. ;-)

cj610 · Post by **cj610** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:46 pm

Wow........this is refreshing an old thread.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:11 pm

Yes, okay, I started this thread half a decade ago, but I figured it was best to "re-engage" the existing thread rather than start another one. The reason I'm re-visiting the thread is that, as an owner of an inseam sewn side-strap Wested, was actually interested in seeing some on screen examples of this occasional vairiant... Michaelson said there were examples...

So the petition stands, if anyone knows of any inseam sewn side-straps in any Raider's pics, please post them, or link to them.

Cheers!

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:27 pm

That pic of Ford sitting on a bollard next to the Bantu Wind looks like it has that sort of strap configuration.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:30 pm

sebas wrote:... Michaelson said there were examples...

....yes, there were.....5 years ago.

Regards! Michaelson

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:02 pm

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:09 pm

Michaelson wrote:

....yes, there were.....5 years ago

Uh, to my knowledge there weren't any specific examples 5 years ago. Hence the point of re-engaging the thread. Agent 5 posted a pic of the x-box pattern. What I would like to see is an example of the opposite: the inseam sewn variant. Michaelson, the information you shared was very helpful and shed a lot of light on the subject, but there was never any mention of specific on-screen examples. That's all I'm trying to clear up.

Yes, I fully realize the thread is five years old guys, but can we please get back to the topic?

Another question: if Wested has been making the jacket per the "original patterns" as Peter states, why then were the old Westeds all inseam straps, and the more recent ones all x-box, exterior stitched? Has it been more or less recognized that the exterior x-box stitch is more SA? Surely the "original patterns" must have specified this detail from the get-go, right?

Kt Templar wrote:

That pic of Ford sitting on a bollard next to the Bantu Wind looks like it has that sort of strap configuration.

Cheers Kt! I will be sure to check it out.

Thanks guys.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:19 pm

Kt, you did it!

That's the first pic I've seen of this variant. Thanks so much!

This was the first day of shooting on Raiders, indcidently. Michaelson, I see what you mentioned earlier (five years ago;)) about the more sturdy nature of the x-box stitch. Is it safe to assume that as filming progressed they just adjusted as they went? It makes sense.

Cheers!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:44 pm

Actually, as I recall, it was not only something added as they 'went along', but something Peter and co. did when they kept getting complaints that the strap kept pulling out of the seam of the jackets with use. It just made sense to make the change for the stronger 'x' box and eliminate that tear.

Regards! Michaelson

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:20 pm

Did the old method/pattern have the straps affixed inside the pocket?

lpa53 · Post by **lpa53** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:31 pm

Michaelson wrote:Actually, as I recall, it was not only something added as they 'went along', but something Peter and co. did when they kept getting complaints that the strap kept pulling out of the seam of the jackets with use. It just made sense to make the change for the stronger 'x' box and eliminate that tear.

Regards! Michaelson

and from just looking at the photo above, the inside-the-seam attachment just looks like it'd be weaker.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:12 am

Look at that picture

You could have put that jacket into my bare hands and I would have considered it one of the worst replicas ever!!!

The yoke is WAY too big and where the "where the devil lives" is that sleeve seam located?! Off, off, off!

Regards,

Marc

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:18 am

Not to mention the Temple of Doom Fedora he's wearing !

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:44 am

Yeah, really! If that is the hat Bernie had at hand, I understand why he considered our first prototypes over characterised

Regards,

Marc

Post by **Holt** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:45 am

what!! well,there you go.

I NEVER thought the raiders jacket had hidden strap construction.I thought this was a thing Peter did wrong back then.well,after a few PM's sebas and I will say it out here,yes your jacket is SA

thnaks KT for that pic.

Holt

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:35 pm

From the pic, it's kind of hard to see how the strap is connected to the front part of the jacket. Here's a pic of mine. Holt, is that what you mean by "hidden strap construction"? (also, nevermind my non-SA strap direction!)

Post by **Holt** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:36 pm

yes that s what I mean.great looking jacket.

now I have asked this before.when are you going to take some new pictures.I love the look of your jakcet

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:31 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:yes that s what I mean.great looking jacket.

now I have asked this before.when are you going to take some new pictures.I love the look of your jakcet

Yes! It's coming up on 10 years and I got part of the lining fixed, so I'll be taking some new pics ASAP.

Also, FANTASTIC to know that it is actually SA! I was wondering to myself where the MOD EDIT:DONT GO AROUND THE FILTER Peter got those specs (if you compare them to the more recent Westeds and all the new SA details discovered by COW memebers). I guess when Peter said he had the "original patters", clearly he meant this model (which, incidently is the first day of shooting of Raiders in that pic)

Cheers!

Post by **Holt** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:36 pm

If I were you I would change those God awfull D rings and make it more SA with rectanguars ;-)

Post by **Holt** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:44 pm

Kt Templar wrote:

what I dont get with this jacket is if it is a raiders then why that low yolk?

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:45 pm

Thanks for resurrecting this phoenix from the ashes! I never knew that the inseam straps were SA. Everything I'd seen had the x box configuration.

Post by **Holt** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:47 pm

and dont forget about the K-box ;-)

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:28 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:
Kt Templar wrote:

what I dont get with this jacket is if it is a raiders then why that low yolk?

My theory is, given that this was the very first day of shooting, this version of the jacket must have been the "original pattern" designed by Peter/Nadoolman et al. As filming progressed, alterations and adjustments were made and the have become the SA specs with which we're all familiar today. That's why in Peter's affirmation of having kept the "original patters" he essentially meant these specs. For this reason, since the late 90s, the jacket has had to undergo several adjustments. The evolution of the commercially available Wested jacket has mirrored the mutations it underwent during filming.
Again, just a theory.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:42 pm

Guys, any thoughts on my above post regarding the "orinigal patterns" on the first-day-of-filming-jacket (low yoke, inseam straps, etc) or is it a hare-brained theory on my part?

Anyone?

Chris_King · Post by **Chris_King** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:32 pm

Sebas,

That makes a MASSIVE amount of sense. I think you may have nailed it.
Great theory!

Chris

junior · Post by **junior** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:46 pm

i agree. this just may be the piece of info that has been missing...and one that shines some believeability to the "original patterns", because, if you ask me, this jacket on Ford looks like it came straight out of the Wested Collection, circa 1997.

Post by **Holt** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:51 pm

so funny...all these years I have been wanting the most screen acurrate wested.and I got it with my HH raiders..but now after all these new tearies that comes from down under the rocks and the style of TN raiders jacket,I would love a wested from 1997 old style.like sebas's jacket...that jacket is killer IMO

and I have to nag about this one more time..when are you gonna show more picturs of you jacket sebas? I would love to see some detail shots of it.