improving the Adventurebilt shirt

The Man with the Hat · Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:04 pm

I noticed the buttons on the shirt in Raiders and TOD were greenish so I replaced the buttons on my Adventurebilt. With the right buttons I don't think you can get a better shirt than the Adventurebilt. When they got so many other details correct, I wonder why they used the light colored buttons that matched the shirt instead of darker, greener buttons.

Adventure Dog · Post by **Adventure Dog** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:19 pm

I don't know. I like the color of the light buttons on my AB... But since when have the epaulettes been that long?! I bought my AB off of someone on the bazaar, and they aren't long enough in my opinion... If they are that long now... perfect Raider's shirt?

The Man with the Hat · Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:32 pm

It seems to me the lighter colored buttons that match the shirt are more appropriate for an Indy 4 shirt than Raiders or TOD.

As far as length, they look right to me. It looks like in the Raiders photo they end past the vertical strips and the Adventurebilt ends similarly.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:46 am

I totally agree with you on the buttons and is what I have planned on doing with mine when it arrives next week. The AB shirt looks to be everyhting I see in Raiders. and if I am not misstaken here, it is patterend from an very very early NH/screen shirt.

I always loved the shirt with the darker buttons myself AND with recent discoveries there was at least one raiders shirt with darker buttons and I believe the darker buttoned shirt is the one he wears in the raven bar (?) at leat that scene when Indy thinks he got shot when it was Marion who shot the guy from the back.

The Man with the Hat · Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:53 pm

if I am not misstaken here, it is patterend from an very very early NH/screen shirt.

I had a NH and it was very very similar to the Adventurebilt, but the color was all wrong. It was much too yellow. It didn't matter what lighting it was in, I never saw it look like what we see on screen

there was at least one raiders shirt with darker buttons

From the time Indy is in Nepal through Cairo, I can not find a scene where the buttons are not greenish. Maybe only in the opening scenes in South America are the buttons a similar color as the shirt.

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:44 pm

If there’s one thing I love, it’s being a video detective. I went back and looked at the buttons. In the opening exterior shots, the buttons appear to be green. Inside the temple (interior studio shots) they appear to be tan (even as he’s coming out of shadow when he sees the idol).

Not the aforementioned idol shot, but similar lighting.

In Cairo, when Indy is sitting at the table with Sallah, in direct sunlight the buttons look tan; in shadow, they look green.

The likelihood of having shirts with different-colored buttons seems pretty slim (it might make sense with scenes shot months apart, but not in the same scene), so my theory is that the buttons are an olive green and appear to change color depending on the amount (or color temperature) of light hitting them. I would put the color right between the buttons on the two shirts pictured at top.

In Jock’s plane, they look to be a light olive color—and they happen to match a trouser fly button that’s visible. (I like that they went to the trouble of wetting his clothes, if not completely, for that brief insert shot.)

OK, who's going to buy a bunch of buttons and do a photo comparison?

indydude18 · Post by **indydude18** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:56 pm

Another thing to remember is that the buttons on the screen-used shirts are shiny! If lighting or the sun hit then at the right angle, they appear to match the same color as the shirt.

Don't believe that they're shiny? Watch 25:40 - 25:45. This is the scene where HF smiles right after "....walking back through my door". See the top button thats buttoned? Watch it shine

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:18 pm

Did you just say "Look at them shine!"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enSy4uYsPpI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

indydude18 · Post by **indydude18** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:35 pm

indydude18 · Post by **indydude18** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:06 pm

Holt wrote: I always loved the shirt with the darker buttons myself AND with recent discoveries there was at least one raiders shirt with darker buttons and I believe the darker buttoned shirt is the one he wears in the raven bar (?) at leat that scene when Indy thinks he got shot when it was Marion who shot the guy from the back.

He also wears it when he's looking down into the WoS

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k53 ... 14s154.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But I think my screen grab probably captures the true color of the button best

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k53 ... 02s224.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What do you guys think?

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:16 pm

indydude18 wrote:What do you guys think?

I think you're trying to hit a moving target.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:30 am

Those greenish brown buttons look like my vintage Army buttons.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35223822@N ... 6536869430

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:35 am

Hey guys I was trying to find more buttons like mine on the US Army card just above in my post and came across these!
They look like military buttons and are vintage NOS. They measure 1/2" wide which is the same exact width as mine.

They're selling 50 for $2.50 and looks like they have a box full.

http://www.etsy.com/listing/63697383/vi ... &ga_facet=

Very LARGE picture of them.
http://img2.etsystatic.com/il_fullxfull.209833374.jpg

I will post some comparison photos of them when they arrive.

indydude18 · Post by **indydude18** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:40 pm

lantzn, I think the 1st vintage army buttons are pretty much spot-on. Where can we get a set?

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:31 pm

indydude18 wrote:lantzn, I think the 1st vintage army buttons are pretty much spot-on. Where can we get a set?

I found them a while back after readings Tundraiders review on his button swap. He went to darker buttons that he robbed from an old military shirt. They were the only set they had. I would think buying a vintage WWII shirt could yield the buttons needed. I plan on using mine when I finally get a real Indy shirt. I'm leaning towards the WPG.

Another good source might be a reinactors shirt

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:26 am

Comparison photos coming soon.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:28 am

Not any more. It looks like somebody already bought them.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:36 am

ShanghaiJack wrote:Not any more. It looks like somebody already bought them.

Yes I did. I wanted to compare them with mine and post some pictures of them together. It's an actual store and the description specifies only 50 in my purchase. They show a box of hundreds of them so I'm assuming they have plenty more of them. I'm hoping this proves a good source for everyone interest in a darker button.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:40 am

Cool. Let us know how they compare. I'll keep an eye out too and see if they add more to their shop.

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:30 am

Based on how they look under different lighting, I think you have a winner there, lantzn.

raider 57 · Post by **raider 57** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:16 am

Nice....just ordered some myself....

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:40 pm

raider 57 wrote:Nice....just ordered some myself....

Yep the sale is on again, so I imagine they are trying to figure out why they are all of a sudden having a run on khaki button sales.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:01 pm

DYING BUTTONS

Well here's something I didn't know could be done. While visiting the above Esty button vendor I noticed she mentioned dyed buttons. I found the instructions. If we could find some correct shape buttons to my vintage army buttons we could dye them to match exactly. The trouble I was having was finding the correct size (1/2"), shape (flat w/lip) and color (khaki, olive drab).
Getting all three of those in one button appears impossible. Just a thought.

Instructions
http://www.ritdye.com/diy-projects/odds ... ed-buttons

Under Yellow-Green range the colors 422 and 423 look to be in the color range of my buttons.
Hover over the color bar to see the color range and click on it.
http://www.ritdye.com/colorit_color_formula_guide

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:28 pm

Got a reply from Brenda at Esty and she said she has a few hundred of them and isn't sure if she can get more or not but she'll try. She thanked us for the business. And yes she was wondering why she was selling so many of them at once.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:33 pm

Ha! That's awesome, I ordered some on Saturday when I saw she had them up again.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:02 pm

Here's the comparison pictures of my vintage Army shirt buttons and the ones we are getting from Brenda on Esty.

There are 3 pictures. One from above, one showing the face of the buttons and one the back of the buttons.

The Etsy button is identical both sides probably for quick assembly reasons. The Army button has a definite face side.

The Esty button leans to the khaki color while the Army button olive drab (brownish green)

Overall the Esty button is very nice. Being made of plastic one could use the dye instructions above to experiment with various colors.

Album
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35223822@N ... 7045459256

indydude18 · Post by **indydude18** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:11 pm

I got my Esty buttons a couple of days ago. They are nice, but they're not a-lot like lantzn's vintage buttons. I think lantzn's are spot on IMHO. The search continues I guess.....

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:31 pm

indydude18 wrote:I got my Esty buttons a couple of days ago. They are nice, but they're not a-lot like lantzn's vintage buttons. I think lantzn's are spot on IMHO. The search continues I guess.....

Yup, those are my thoughts as well. I have noticed that the lighter buttons on the AB shirts are the right size and shape. It's just the color that's wrong. After Halloween I think I might try and dye them using the info that lantzn posted. I'll post afterwards if it is a success or failure.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:39 pm

Yeah I think the due thing will be everybody's best bet as well. If we can find the correct shape in white that would be the best starting point. I'm going to search for the shape at our local fabric stores like JoAnns. One a product is found that everyone has access to we can fine tune a dye recipe to match my army color.

indydude18 · Post by **indydude18** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:56 pm

lantzn, was there any mention of removing dye from buttons? I think I found a couple that are the correct size and shape, they're just too dark IMO.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:19 pm

indydude18 wrote:lantzn, was there any mention of removing dye from buttons? I think I found a couple that are the correct size and shape, they're just too dark IMO.

Most buttons aren't dyed from the factory the plastic is colored. That's why starting with a white button would give us all a consistent product once we come up with the correct dye recipe.

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:04 am

I'm probably just going back over well-trodden ground here, but I haven't read anything definitive about the original shirt design. (If it's out there, I'd love to read it.) Considering that a lot of the gear was British army surplus, and most of the costume work was done in England, it makes sense to me that that's where the shirt originated as well. I started looking for vintage UK military shirts (Did you know that "stone" is an actual UK military tropical shirt color? I didn't.) and found this:

http://79.170.40.32/militaryandoutdoor. ... ts_id=3181" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't think it's exactly vintage, but a lot of the details look correct for the base shirt, including the epaulettes and the alignment of the bottom of the pockets with a button. (One difference: the pockets are "dog-eared," or whatever the term is, rather than a 90-degree corner like the Raiders shirt.) The relevance to this discussion is this: Supposing I'm correct about the base shirt being UK military, I think UK surplus buttons would be worth a look.

Here's another men's tropical stone shirt. Note how the buttons appear to change color depending on lighting and angle.

http://www.springfields.co.uk/clothing/ ... largeimg=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FWIW. (I was going to order a couple, but the shipping to the US is ridiculous.)

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:37 pm

I saw a line of buttons at Joann's fabric store called "Slimline" that had the right shape in a yellow button. I went online to see if they had a 1/2" version in white and found a button that could be a good candidate for dyeing. One thing I like was it had a hump back instead of flat like so many modern 4-hole buttons with the ring lip. My vintage army button has a hump back.

on page 3 of 5 (#65 in the group)

Beige
Product#: 397500065
Size: 1/2in (12MM)
Package Size: 5
Material: POLYESTER
Wash: WASHABLE

http://www.blumenthallansing.com/slimlinebuttons.aspx

Here's a closeup of the button

Found an online retailer
http://www.artscraftsusa.com/Blumenthal ... 42137.html

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:24 pm

Lantzn, those do look like excellent candidates for dyeing. I might have to buy some and give it a try myself.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:32 am

I went by JoAnn's fabric store today and picked up a bunch of army colored thread to replace the buttons on my new WPG shirt with the vintage army buttons. While there I saw a row of Ritz dye so I grabbed a variety of colors in the brown, green, tan and yellow ranges. I'm going to experiment with some of the Ritz's recipes to see if I can use one of them or tweak it to match the color of the army buttons. I'm going to use the buttons that came with the WPG shirt as the "base" button so everyone can follow the same recipe and have the same buttons I use.

I found some awesome quality thready with a sign on the shelve labeled "Heavy Duty" that is from Germany. I held it up to some thread my wife uses for sewing and couldn't believe how much thicker it was. Looks very durable. I just hate when a button falls off a fairly new shirt due to cheap thread or workmanship. The brand is Gütermann, Top Stitch 30m, 100% polyester.

http://www.guetermann.com/Content/Guete ... render.pdf

On another note, I also found some Tandy Leather products and am going to start working on my "LN" label for my CS rucksack from nihil.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:40 am

Would it be possible to just dye the AB's original buttons? If memory serves, they are perfect other than the color.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:08 pm

ShanghaiJack wrote:Would it be possible to just dye the AB's original buttons? If memory serves, they are perfect other than the color.

As I mentioned in my post I'm planning on experimenting with my original WPG buttons to try and match the color of my vintage ones. I don't own a AB shirt but as long as the buttons are plastic (nylon) according to the Ritz button dye instructions (link in post above) they can be dyed. The problem is I imagine the original color of a button will affect the dye color overall. In other words using the same dye formula on different color buttons, (white v tan v green, etc.) would yield different color buttons. So to be consistent one needs to start with a "common" base button to come up with a formula that accurately represents the button color we are shooting for.

That said, I'm going to work on a formula for the WPG button. It may or may not work accurately with the AB button if the color and material they were made from are too different from the WPG buttons. If anyone would like to send me their buttons I'd be happy to experiment with them using the formula I come up with. If the formula needs tweaking for other buttons I could give it a go.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:31 pm

lantzn wrote:
ShanghaiJack wrote:Would it be possible to just dye the AB's original buttons? If memory serves, they are perfect other than the color.
As I mentioned in my post I'm planning on experimenting with my original WPG buttons to try and match the color of my vintage ones. I don't own a AB shirt

Ok, I should have noticed that from your post, but I guess I let the thread's title confuse me. I might have a go with my AB buttons and see if I can match the color of your vintage buttons. I've been looking for some buttons to use for that purpose, but haven't found any yet. I'm looking forward to see your results.

The Man with the Hat · Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:35 pm

Why would you dye buttons? Why wouldn't you just buy buttons the color you want? It seems like a lot of trouble to dye buttons. I doubt the dye is going to radically alter the color of a plastic button anyway.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:20 am

The Man with the Hat wrote:Why would you dye buttons? Why wouldn't you just buy buttons the color you want? It seems like a lot of trouble to dye buttons. I doubt the dye is going to radically alter the color of a plastic button anyway.

If you take a look at the thread you'll see just going down to the button store hasn't supplied us with a button to do the job. So many of today's buttons are "girlie" and seem to be in the market for scrapbooking or brightly color clothes. Lots of BIG button also. I thought it would be a piece of cake to go in and find a 1/2", 4-hole, khaki brown button, but boy was I wrong. The couple of buttons mentioned in this thread are both vintage, my army buttons and some from Esty.
As far as dyeing buttons go the thread also show that buttons, yes, can be dyed. Actually the thread answers each of your questions.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:50 am

ShanghaiJack wrote:Ok, I should have noticed that from your post, but I guess I let the thread's title confuse me. I might have a go with my AB buttons and see if I can match the color of your vintage buttons. I've been looking for some buttons to use for that purpose, but haven't found any yet. I'm looking forward to see your results.

I'm curious what does the AB button look like? Is there a photo of a closeup, front and back. I really like the smooth round edges and domed back of my vintage army buttons. Most of the modern button have flat backs and the outer "ring" has sharp edges.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:50 am

I'll see if I can take a couple of closeup's, but they'll probably just be of the front since I don't want to take any buttons off at the moment. I'll try and get to it tomorrow or the next day.

The Man with the Hat · Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:53 pm

lantzn wrote:
The Man with the Hat wrote:Why would you dye buttons? Why wouldn't you just buy buttons the color you want? It seems like a lot of trouble to dye buttons. I doubt the dye is going to radically alter the color of a plastic button anyway.
If you take a look at the thread you'll see just going down to the button store hasn't supplied us with a button to do the job. So many of today's buttons are "girlie" and seem to be in the market for scrapbooking or brightly color clothes. Lots of BIG button also. I thought it would be a piece of cake to go in and find a 1/2", 4-hole, khaki brown button, but boy was I wrong. The couple of buttons mentioned in this thread are both vintage, my army buttons and some from Esty.
As far as dyeing buttons go the thread also show that buttons, yes, can be dyed. Actually the thread answers each of your questions.

OK. Thanks for the summary. I read everything before I posted but didn't understand what all the fuss was about. I've dyed a lot of things with Rit and in my opinion, I found that it can be extremely challenging to mix and come up with a specific color consistently. Materials accept dye in different ways. Even if you achieve the exact color you want with one fabric, it doesn't mean it will look the same with another material. I found military greens to be particularly difficult to achieve. You might not find the button you want at the local fabric store but I'll bet the button you want is being manufactured by someone out there. Are you trying to duplicate those vintage Army buttons or something else?

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:38 pm

We are trying to duplicate the look and color of the vintage army button. Trying to find enough of the exact same vintage button is another problem. It would probably be easier to find a vintage army shirt with the buttons the color you want.

UPDATE: I tried to dye some colored buttons last night including, one of the Esty, WPG and a yellow one to see if I could change their color at all. I heated the water added the dye and soaked for 10 minutes and not one spec of change occurs on any of them. The recipe does say they must be white buttons. Are white buttons made differently or something?

Does seem like they would. My wife is bringing home some white buttons so I can run a test on those. The Rit tutorial shows the white buttons changing color dramatically. We shall see.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:49 am

It WORKED! See my thread here.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=54218&p=780950#p780950