Club Obi Wan

How "The Hero Jacket" Evolved with Indiana Jones.

The "Hero Jacket" always reflected Indy's two fisted adventuring persona and character, the teacher and the grave robber. As he got older, it also changed to represent the main stages of his career.

The first one, "Raiders", has more of a James Dean rock' n'roll vibe to it than the others, reflecting Indy's youthfulness. Dark brown colour, almost black and the way Indy wears it with the collar up at the beginning, during the temple scene, there's a bit of a JD Americana with some "Wild One" in there. I guess that's what Mutt also represents as well in "The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull", a young version of Indiana Jones.

The "Last Crusade", a jacket in which the design shifted more towards the A2 aviator style with it's lighter brown color, rounder cut and military collar. The distress and wear is more evident. A mature Indy still in his prime but has experience. The classic adventurer style that everybody is probably more familiar with.

The "Crystal Skull" went even further by introducing the inner facings and thicker cowhide making the jacket even more gentlemanly. Flat, straight, relaxed fit with elegant collar lines and slightly less drape and flapping. Indy's a dad and is at the twilight of his adventuring but can still kick ###. I have seen the actual jacket from the film and the colour looked even lighter than the LC.

All very awesome designs and that's cause it was a great idea for a jacket from the start, it then transformed and evolved with Indiana Jones.

It's an observation, a point of view and an opinion on the concept and design of the jacket and the character.

Since I got your attention _, I would very much like to know the real sources and inspirations, if you don't mind. Please tell us, that would be very appreciated.

It's all in here: http://www.indygear.com/igjacket-RotLA.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards, Geert

In short, the James dean jacket pattern is what Peter may have used as a basis for the design he was asked to make, not something the costume designer had in mind while designing the jacket

Regards, Geert

I think the jacket was called a James Dean for marketing purposes, without any real basis. It was never anything like a jacket Dean ever wore.

This analysis is surely just a bit of fun, not to be taken seriously for insight or fact...

May have used it? In the write up it says this it was determined that Peter would use his existing James Dean pattern with the addition of A2 pockets and an action pleat based on the Western Costumes mock-up. The jacket seen at the temple entrance in Raiders, is that a "Wilson", "Cooper", or a "Wested"?

Yea, the look for Indy borrows heavily from movies of the 30's - 50's. It's hardly original. As it happens, Chuck Heston wears pretty much the same outfit twice; apart from "Incas" he's got a similar leather jacket, fedora look in "The Greatest Show on Earth". I think he may even have the whip as a lion tamer - or did I dream that? (hence, perhaps, that amusing question in Temple...)

When Wested talks about the Dean jacket it just means a zip up jacket barely similar to the one Dean wears in "Rebel". (Others might call this desgin an Eisenhower.) But the "Rebel" jacket's look is a shiny, pristine, bright red nylon. Nothing to do with Indy.

Kubrik wrote:May have used it? In the write up it says this it was determined that Peter would use his existing James Dean pattern with the addition of A2 pockets and an action pleat based on the Western Costumes mock-up.

I say may have used since it is very unclear what that "James Dean" jacket actually looked like. It can't look like anything he ever wore in a movie because that wouldn't even come close to what the design looks like.

_ is the guy to talk to if you want to know how the jacket came to be: He is the writer of the jacket write-ups on the main site and is the only one I know off who spoke to all people involved with it's design

Regards, Geert

_ wrote:Those drawings were taken to Western Costumes. Western Costumes actually designed our jacket - a military-inspired jacket modified to work with the gun and whip on the belt by adding the open bottomed action pleat, straps, etc.

Found the Western Costumes website, very interesting. Looks like they did the Terminator Jacket. No mention of Raiders unfortunately.
http://www.westerncostume.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gwyddion wrote:

Kubrik wrote:May have used it? In the write up it says this it was determined that Peter would use his existing James Dean pattern with the addition of A2 pockets and an action pleat based on the Western Costumes mock-up.

I say may have used since it is very unclear what that "James Dean" jacket actually looked like. It can't look like anything he ever wore in a movie because that wouldn't even come close to what the design looks like.

Maybe some of it comes from this one, links below. The raiders collar is different from the other indy jackets.

http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress. ... fpt_28.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress. ... jacket.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CM wrote: When Wested talks about the Dean jacket it just means a zip up jacket barely similar to the one Dean wears in "Rebel".

It says that Wested actually used an existing James Dean pattern, that's more than just talking about something like it.

What I find fun about this topic is how the jacket could conceivably have been changed over time/ for the different movies, from the Hero's point of view. It is fun to reason in that as Indy grew older, his tastes and priorities shifted and we see a more relaxed style to reflect this.
I wonder, did the costumer take this into consideration. By the same token, would the older more gentlemanly Indy just look plain funny in a proportionately cut Raiders jacket, with the wide open chest and thinner arm holes, etc.
I favor the Raiders jacket, and part of me wishes they would have kept the same style throughout the series, just add a couple inches here or there, made to measure.
I am not being as artful as I like with my wording here, but do you get where I'm going with this?
Thinking aloud

_ wrote:

Kubrik wrote:

CM wrote: When Wested talks about the Dean jacket it just means a zip up jacket barely similar to the one Dean wears in "Rebel".

It says that Wested actually used an existing James Dean pattern, that's more than just talking about something like it.

You are being far too literal about something which you clearly don't know. That's why you are asking questions?

What's your point here? Feels like you are trolling...

The jacket Peter refers to is one HE calls a James Dean. That's it. There's no reason to believe this is anything more than a fish tale. He's never presented this jacket for anybody I know to see. It's just a story he tells. The jacket pattern existed before Peter ever got involved, so Peter's story is - well - interesting at best? But it has no more to do with the jacket than the price of pork belly futures...

Absolutely I'm asking questions, sure I don't know, I'm just fishing around. Maybe I'm on to somethin'.

The pattern that existed before Peter got involved is not the jacket that is on film, right?. So it is possible that the James Dean aspect was added after. I'm just going with what's in the write up. He called it a James Dean for a reason probably, he didn't say an aviator jacket or an A2. He never presented the jacket? Isn't it the one on screen? If he says so and made it, shouldn't it be something to consider? It could be a story that is not one of his fish tales.

Anyways, I think the "Raiders" does have something from "Rebel", the other jackets don't have it... there that's my point, cheers.

Kubrik wrote:
Maybe some of it comes from this one, links below. The raiders collar is different from the other indy jackets.

http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress. ... fpt_28.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress. ... jacket.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hmmm, which Raiders jacket? There were at least 3 worn by Ford on screen, maybe 4, including an occasional scene in a stunt jacket. Different collars - but I agree, Raiders has always been the image for me. I don't think it would look odd on Ford today. I think it's just the way jobs get handled in the movie biz.

Kubrik wrote: Absolutely I'm asking questions, sure I don't know, I'm just fishing around. Maybe I'm on to somethin'.

Anyways, I think the "Raiders" does have something from "Rebel", the other jackets don't have it... there that's my point, cheers.

Really? You must be kidding? After what you've read here you still want to follow this path? I thought you were just being funny at first.

This site is about trying to eliminate speculation, lies and woolly thinking. The Dean link is wacky if you ask me. Mind you, perhaps the first cloth mock up of that jacekt was in shiny red nylon with button cuffs.

Man, now I have to think of another way to make a proper Indy jacket if I can't rely on what I see on screen and in those screen grabs.

Note: The jacket section is about 4 years in need of updating.

I know, I know...I'm workin' on it, I'm workin' on it!!!

Indydawg wrote:

Note: The jacket section is about 4 years in need of updating.

I know, I know...I'm workin' on it, I'm workin' on it!!!

Well, whatever you're doing, DO IT FASTER!!

lol, sry, had to be said

Well, whatever you're doing, DO IT FASTER!!

Nicely played!!

_ wrote:No. The jacket that Western Costumes made - the clothe mock-up - is THE pattern. Neil Cooper copied it. Peter copied it.

Neil's jackets became the hero(s). One of them is in Lucas' office. Ive held it. It was the jacket Tony Nowak copied. Peter's jackets became stunt jackets. Really no confusion.


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Very interesting, read somewhere in these posts that the Cooper one is the Imam and the temple entrance. Wasn't the idol grab a Leather Concessionaires? I know I'm picking hairs.

My most favorite is the Cooper Raiders.

Actually...P, ....keeping up with the pace car has never been an issue for me...

Now, how many guys do you know who can work a NASCAR reference into an Indy forum...

Something tells me I shouldn't ask what the heck F&G is It seems I've been away far too long here

Sometimes (if not all the times) someone who has worked on a production remembers things in a way that makes them sound more important to said production than they actually were. That's why it pays to double and triple, maybe even quintuple check everything someone says about his/her involvement.

Now I'm going to be very uncharacteristic for me on this and advise you to take all the sugarcoating off of the above statement. That way you'll get close to the truth

Regards, Geert

Is it up to 50?!

Wow...

OK, thanks for the explanation So basically it's a science-fiction forum then

Sorry.... I will revert to my good natured self from now on

Regards, Geert

gwyddion wrote:OK, thanks for the explanation So basically it's a science-fiction forum then

It's a bit like that, only with just a handful of members and very few new threads. It feels like a town where the mine has closed down.

JessicaRabbit - You know there is nothing to forgive, but any excuse to get you out on the town is good enough for me. Make him get you something nice!

P - Everything is with a grain of salt for me, no biggy... If it weren't for what we see on screen this, and any other forum or discussion about the details, would never exist.

speaking to some of our members' comments on FAG, I would think folks wouldn't need to go that route here... different forums are entitled to their different points of view, nothing wrong with diversity on the web and there are some great resources on both COW and FAG. Plenty of room for everyone, and there is cross-population of both forums and I'm sure these kind of comments sting those valuable members that exist in both arenas without issue.

P - as to the gunslinger comment... I know you and he have issues between eachother, but personally I have a good relationship with both of you individually, and I know you can stay on a better playing level than that. And you have giving him his due credit when it comes to his eye for detail and skill with gear. My personal Raiders jacket was his Nowak previously, and my Raiders hat is one of his as well...both seem to be pretty darn close to the originals.

Yep, the wives drool over fridges like we drool over jackets... everybody has to drool over something. And I for one am getting a little scared as I start to enjoy fridges too as the years go by... talk about a tangent!

Consider yourselves lucky if your wives haven't demanded an AGA oven. Trust me...

I suppose I feel like I can make one gentle crack on FAG (what an acronym!) given how nasty and slanderous some of the comments posted there have been about some of us here. I'll stop there.

CM wrote:I suppose I feel like I can make one gentle crack on FAG (what an acronym!) given how nasty and slanderous some of the comments posted there have been about some of us here. I'll stop there.

Team America

Screen grab studying is a pseudo science. I used to consider myself a top "scientist" in the field, lol. All you can really get from screen grabs are basic details (like the jacket having 2 front pockets for instance). When you take something that is 3 dimensional in real life, and flatten it into 2 dimensions for "reel" life (ha ha), it becomes distorted. There is no accounting for the angles at which objects are filmed.

As far as what was intended for the character, I don't believe that his jacket was supposed to be anything else but a utility piece. The jacket was never supposed to be lambskin in the world of Indiana Jones. It was only made of lambskin in reality to look good. He probably bought his jacket(s) at Sears Roebuck or some other "regular" clothing store. If the jacket changed over the years it would have had to do with how they were manufactured. Most of us in life don't have stuff custom made. We get what we get.

Rundquist wrote:Screen grab studying is a pseudo science. I used to consider myself a top "scientist" in the field, lol. All you can really get from screen grabs are basic details (like the jacket having 2 front pockets for instance). When you take something that is 3 dimensional in real life, and flatten it into 2 dimensions for "reel" life (ha ha), it becomes distorted. There is no accounting for the angles at which objects are filmed.

As far as what was intended for the character, I don't believe that his jacket was supposed to be anything else but a utility piece. The jacket was never supposed to be lambskin in the world of Indiana Jones. It was only made of lambskin in reality to look good. He probably bought his jacket(s) at Sears Roebuck or some other "regular" clothing store. If the jacket changed over the years it would have had to do with how they were manufactured. Most of us in life don't have stuff custom made. We get what we get.

Sears & Roebuck HH jackets were pretty darn good. Still lots of them around. They were made for guys that worked for a living, and they've held up as such. To me, copying and getting all anal over a movie prop which is often a cheesy kluge gives me a giggle. I get the fun aspects of it all, but really, unless you have a top maker doing their craft for the flick (as Red Tails supposedly did) you're making something 10x better than the disposable junk you saw on screen.
If I understood _'s posts on the (original?) Indy jackets, they spent some real money and effort. But the customs being ordered here likely surpass all of that gear.
Granted, movie gear are 100x better than TV props, but that's what I've seen over the years.

_ wrote: Sorry....

The hobby is what what you make it yourself. I choose to take it where I do.


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That's just it. Have fun. I know that the more you know about something, the less you know. Sometimes, when we get into a subject, we tend to take the fun out of it by analyzing the snot out of it (to be kind)
I bet that if HF walked aboard the QM and donned any of the jackets owned here he'd look awesome! You guys look like you were part of the movie you're so good. Some could probably body double.
I can guarantee that the analysis of wartime jackets and Indy jackets exceeds the original designers' efforts 1000 fold over the years. These things were made for utility and a movie. Had they pondered this much over them, the war(s) would have ended and filming over before anything was designed. Jackets flew out of mom and pop shops day and night with a contract and basic design. We spend loads of money and time trying to replicate this and it IS fun, but sometimes I think it best to just put one on and go have some coffee before the rest of the city wakes up
Good day all...

I know this is an older topic and that the James Dean jacket wasn't too Indy related, but for what it's worth, I'd like to show a couple of a pictures of my vintage McGregor Anti-Freeze jacket:

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy20 ... at1620.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy20 ... t16192.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not red like the Rebel Without a Cause one, but dark brown, and can appear slightly olive or tan under certain lighting. It's nylon, too. Supposedly, James Dean wore a red McGregor Anti-Freeze, but they had the interior of it dyed black/dark, my interior is white.

Wait, so this isn't a thread about breakfast sausage and A2s?

Kyle

Dang, Kyle, you beat me to it! I thought exactly the same thing when this old thread popped up!

Regards! Michaelson