Club Obi Wan

I am very sad that things have come to this, and that I have to post this thread as it is not what I really wanted to have to do. However, I have become aware of some very unprofessional conduct by another vendor, Joe Strain, and I feel a responsibility to let our community know about it. 

Joe has copied my Super Whip holder design and is selling it on his website. Not only did I introduce the design to him originally and have emails to prove it, I have been asked why the Super Holder purchased from Joe’s site is different than the one received from me directly and the one pictured on his site(which was mine). In addition I’ve anonymously purchased a holder from him and have hard evidence of what he’s doing, straight up copying my design.

Here are the facts: I came up with the Super Whip Holder concept in early 2008 and have it well documented. I introduced the design here on the COW in my 4th post ever as a member on July 24th, 2008. In December of 2008 I sent Joe Strain a sample of the Super Whip holder as a Christmas present. His response was that he was very impressed with the design and he said ‘it works better than any holder I have ever seen before.’ I have all of my initial emails back and forth with Joe concerning the whip holder and how he could purchase in bulk for resale on his site. He made two bulk orders of Super Whip holders from me in early 2009. Something I have hard proof of. 

The last correspondence I received from Joe was his PayPal purchase email for a bulk shipment of Super Holders on August 19th, 2009. Since then, he has not returned my emails or reordered and has been making and selling his own version of the holder to his customers while advertising on his site with a photo of one of my holders and my product information to the letter. He changed the photo and text Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 after I confronted him about it last week and in addition to changing the product details the text now says ‘our own production.’ I have been contacting him about the holders for over a year and he has not once returned an email, but he had my product pictured on his site the entire time. Not until I threatened to post this information on the forums this past weekend has he bothered to respond.

While there is technically not much I can do about this breach formally, I can make the members here aware of Joe’s unethical business practices and urge you not to purchase a holder from him. Though they say imitation is the purest form of flattery it has always been my understanding that the copying of, or ‘re-casting’ of other vendor’s work is strictly frowned upon in our community. I was under the impression that Joe and I had a professional business relationship and I had no knowledge or indication from him of what he was doing. I’ve dedicated the last three years to making and offering top quality gear and have hopefully represented myself as a professional and honest businessman working WITH you to offer the best gear possible. I respect the opinions of the members here and I wouldn’t want to blemish that trust with a move like Joe’s because I know it wouldn’t sit right with you and therefore would be a breach of our community’s basic trust. By blatantly selling copies of an original design I introduced him to, Joe has effectively thumbed his nose at me and the integrity that our community expects from it's vendors. 

So, while it gives me no pleasure to do this, I feel compelled to let you, the forum members, know about the situation. I’m sure there will be those who stick to the semantics and argue the legality of it but in the end he’s acted in a dishonest and unprofessional manner towards me and that is my real issue. He has since responded to my emails (as of Sunday, April 3rd, 2011) and has bluntly stated that he can and is making and selling the Super Holders because he 'didn’t sign a non-compete agreement with anyone.' That stance, based on a technicality, may work for the courts and some people, but it really doesn’t work for me as it shows Joe doesn’t operate in an up front and honest manner and is justifying his lack of respect and professionalism with semantics. 

I really don’t intend to get into this any further or have a drawn out thread battle over it. But I am upset enough to let everyone I can know what he has done. The situation is simple, I invented the Super Whip holder concept and introduced it to Joe who has copied it exactly and is profiting from it. End of story. Once again, I urge you not to purchase from him as that would be promoting this action and you will be getting a version of the holder which is of inferior quality and does not represent the craftsmanship you’ve come to expect from me.


Regrettably, 


Wade Egan

Ick!!! I would think that doing that much business with you would have to result in some of your awesomeness rubbing off on them...Guess not.

I went back and forth and back and forth, but MAN am I glad I own a Del Carpio now!!!!!!

Travis

Sorry to read this.

Im sorry this happened and I really hope you can get all this worked out.

Best Wishes
Luke
http://www.meyerwhips.com

Sorry it happened Wade - I am glad I bought one directly from you!

Hey Wade I am sorry to hear about your falling out with Joe in terms of your Super Whip holder and not giving you credit for the one that was being pictured on his site. With that said I do have to say that I don't think that you were the first to come up with this design/style of whip holster. I know that back in 2002 Gery L. Deer(founder of the Society of American Whip Artistry) was offering that style along with his newly introduced Rundown holder. Since that time his holsters have gone through many changes and he had many different styles of Non-Slip holster offerings including his patented coil keeper design (he mainly is offering Indy styles now). While I am glad to see that you are producing this wonderful design with great craftsmanship and materials I do have to say that Gery Deer was offering that style back in 2002.

Keep Crackin,
James

Thanks James,

Actually, I'm familiar with Gery Deer's holders but I believe they use two separate pieces and only look similar at a glance.


W

Hey Wade,
They were two different holsters (both kind of looked similar at a glance), one was exactly like your Super Whip holster (2002) and he had a later version that incorporated his the coil keeper that looked a lot like the wrap around when it was combined with the cliffhanger or rundown holster (2003). Regardless, kudos for bringing back the design.

Keep Crackin,
James

Ok. You can prove that then I'm assuming?
Since you're basically calling me out I'm going to have to ask you to prove your statements. For all I know you're a friend of Joe's coming to his aid here, James. I don't understand how anyone would come up with a system that everyone I know who has used one, including Joe Strain, says is the best non slip design they ever used and then abandon it in favor of the less effective Indy style. So if you can prove your statements that would be great.

In any case, all deflecting aside, the basic principal I'm upset about here still exists.

W

Wade am in no way coming to Joe's side or defense for the issues that occurred between the two of you, honestly I could care less, I do feel bad that you were not given credit for the images of your holster that were posted on his site. I COMMENDED you for bringing back this wonderful design in holsters that another for some reason stopped making (I was just saying that Gery Deer was offering the same style back in the early 2000's before he went with his coil keeper design). I am in no way trying to call you out and I understand your frustration over the situation. Moral of my previous post was to say that I was happy to see this design again and it being offered with high quality materials and craftsmanship.

Keep Crackin,
James

You mean I've been posting, and my customers have been posting, images and information about this holder design for almost 3 years now and you chose this moment to bring that up? I'd still like to see you produce proof that the design is the exact same. Any photos handy? Otherwise, all you have done here is tactfully try and through a monkey wrench into this situation, not help it. Meaning, if you are so glad to see the holder 'brought back' and could truly 'care less' about the situation with Joe then why wait until now, in this thread, to chime in about it?

Wade I am not looking to pick fights and if I was so against what you were trying to do I would have not complemented you from my beginning post of your great craftsmanship and high quality materials that you are using, take the complement without throwing it back in my face. I just sent Gery Deer an e-mail regarding this style of holster hoping he could shed some light on it. If it so happens that I am wrong I will apologize now for my misunderstanding of the holsters he was offering at that time.

Keep Crackin,
James

Wade, Thank you for bringing this to our attention on Club Obi-Wan. I sympathize with your situation.

While copying of, or “re-casting” others original work is strictly frowned upon here, given that the design of this product plays directly off the film/screen used whip holster, (basically been lengthened for an extra wrap) it falls into a bit of a gray area. Especially considering how many whip makers here strive to make and sell exact copy’s of David Morgan’s famous whip, I highly doubt all of them asked permission first. With that said clearly the concept of both whip holders are the same, however; the whip holster currently shown at http://www.northernwhipco.com/Accessories.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is noticeably different then your model at http://web.mac.com/wadeegan/Wadeventure ... lders.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To the best of my knowledge you were the first to mass market this type of wrap around “super whip holster” for public sale and that distinction would be yours. While I don’t remember if Gery Deer sold them at one time, he has carried different versions in the past. I would however be remiss not to mention that the wrap around leather strap type grip has been used to secure whips and ropes in the whip cracking and western arts community out side of Indy gear prior to your introduction of the product here in 2008. If I can find photo evidence to support this I will post it, however; it was never something I consciously considered that important to have saved evidence of.

I am well aware both of you have supporters, customers and friends at this site. While I hate to see these types of situations occur, I would like to remind those posting their thoughts and opinions regarding this topic to please remember to keep things civil and respectful towards both parties involved. Club Obi-Wan is not the place for personal arguments, blatant accusations or attacks on anyone, no matter the reasons. Thank You.

Dan

I'm on the fence. I'll keep it to myself.

I'd like to hear Joe's side of the story. I know he comes around every now and then but doesn't post often. Maybe he'll post since his image may become tarnished.

I have to agree with whipdude though. I would like to hear from Joe as well

Wade, I'm very sorry to hear this. I own one of your super whip holders and I love it! I hope you and Joe can work this out. Thanks for a your hard work Wade, I'll be in Vegas very soon and maybe I can't come check out the shop and place a order!?

As for everyone that makes Indy whips is "ripping off" David Morgan, if you have Whips and Whipmaking 2nd ed he publishes how to make them...which basically makes it OK to make them if you own that book. Typically in craft type books when you publish your method and design and don't specifically reserve manufacturing rights you allow people to make them for sale.

Now anyone that makes Indy stuff outside of Morgan's whips which existed before the movie is essentially ripping off the original design of whoever designed the costume. So technically selling a MKVII bag with a leather strap is stealing. I don't believe those existed before the film (but I could be wrong).

That's just a couple of things to consider.

Louie

There is also one quite similar at the crease n corral website.

Is this Joe guy on these forums? If so we would like a direct explination

I tend to think in terms of taking the high road. There is no reason why a whip maker couldn't contract someone like Wade to make these whip holders, especially if the whip maker didn't want to make his version of it himself, didn't have the time, etc. In a situation like that, both guys benefit by making money and both benefit from the enterprise?

Hey Wade - is it possible to get a manufacturer's patent on the holder? That way, as designer you hold the patent, and anyone making your style of holder will be in violation of your copywright

Wade, may i ask, other than the double wrap thing, what is it that makes it not slip? I've seen double wrap holders everywhere,

I was wondering what made yours unique that joe copied?

It's business. What do you expect? Nothing illegal was committed. I'm not saying I agree with Strain either.

And once again, you guys have one side of the story. This is the first thing I can EVER recall about Strain that is in a negative light. We have yet to hear from Strain. I guess some people take Wade's post as 100% fact. Not calling him a liar either.

As stated by others before...everything is pretty much copies.

Tundraider, you just admitted that you haven't tried all whip holders. Who said you haven't found another that works even better? And BullwhipBorton is right. Adding more length to wrap the loop around DOES cause it to be more secure. He didn't say add more length and simply leave it.

If that's business, then I'm glad I ain't in it!!! That dang integrity thing would get in the way too much. I'd be broke in no time!!
But you are right on one count, we haven't heard both sides... Joe?

Travis

Travis, I agree. I think we all know that business can be brutal. It's done for money and that alone causes it to be brutal. How often do we see advertisements for popular items and then not long after we see a modified version? Starbucks pops up, LOTS of coffee shops! iPod comes out, MANY mp3 players are released. Livestrong wrist bands released, EVERY organization has one. From the perspective of business, of course you want to ride on popularity because it brings in money. "Hey, this is great! I'll make my own version and make more money." It creates competition and customers have more choice. It will always be like this unless somebody has a patent and can't have their work copied.

That's because we had one side of the story though _. We finally got the other side of the story and things came to light, right?

And that's the big question. Did Joe REALLY take Wade's credit? I'm not dumbing down the design but what he did was make a bigger holder and loop it. The extra loop can be found before Wade's design. I think that in terms of that, it's going to depend greatly on your personal beliefs.

I don't have anymore to say until we get a bigger picture. Not sure if Joe will come to his defense or not.

Covering yourself doesn't make up for it. But how do we know there isn't more to the story? This is the internet. Wade can say just about whatever he wants with very little repercussion.

Not being disrespectful to Wade. If what is done is exactly what's being said, then I'm going to side with Wade. I simply prefer both sides.

[MOD EDIT]

Wade has the emails. Joe wasn't making them or selling them on his site, he WAS buying them in bulk from Wade to resell on his site, and then started making them himself. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

And who said the emails weren't fabricated? Doesn't seem do cut and dry to me. Once again, it's the internet.


Although I will say, I've always been interested in trying Wade's holder.

Here, here. This is what my dad used to tell me as a kid all the time. He'd say: "Right is right. Wrong is wrong. You're smart enough to know the difference. There's no gray area! When you do something, how does it make you feel? Does it make you feel good, or does it make you feel bad? It's not rocket science, kid! Right is right, wrong is wrong."

To quote TheSavoryTrim: "If I can't look at myself in the mirror and agree with the decisions I'm making, then I'm probably making the wrong decisions."

Wade, my condolences. I know you're frustrated, and I sure as heck would be, too. I greatly hope you can see some sort of recompense from this issue. Thank you for bringing it to light.

As for Joe, I've owned one of his whips, and I liked it. It was a good whip. I do want to hear his side of the story, just so that I've heard from both parties and can thus make a better informed decision.

[MOD Edit]

WhipDude wrote:And who said the emails weren't fabricated? Doesn't seem do cut and dry to me. Once again, it's the internet.


Although I will say, I've always been interested in trying Wade's holder.

Fabrication emails would be a little too far for a whip holder, i think you're being a little too... i'm not sure what to call it, distrusting,

paranoid, i'm not sure, and i'm not trying to be rude to you, i'm just saying, fabrication emails... too far to go for a whip holder

What about Magnoli's super whip holders? Who is his supplier? On the website there is only info that they come from US.
If Joe decides not to write here, please keep us updated how the things are.

First of all, I NEVER knew there were so many people making whip-holders until I read this thread. So, I learned something new today.

WhipDude wrote:And who said the emails weren't fabricated? Doesn't seem do cut and dry to me. Once again, it's the internet.

Well, true, unless Wade time-stamps like a boss and sends everyone undeniable proof, it could all be hoaxalicious, but honestly, why WOULD it be? I don't see Wade coming up with some elaborate villian-esque scheme, twirling his curly waxed mustache in a basement somewhere going "MWAHAHAHAH JOE STRAIN I HAVE YOU NOW!" all Snidely Whiplash-style. He even states legally there's not a lot of ground, but he just feels that it was shoddy and unscrupulous.

Which. It. Was. OR at least, that's the feeling I get. Instead of just ordering the holders from Wade and helping to support another business, he chose to save a buck and started putting out something remarkably similar. I would be EXTREMELY hurt and frustrated by this situation. I would feel totally taken advantage of, and I would probably turn to one of the few communities who would understand this sort of thing.

Wade is not trying to round up a posse here, he's just venting his frustrations and voicing a concern which he believes to be of interest to the community. And I agree with him, this highly colors my opinions on Joe Strain and will in all likelihood move my influence away from purchasing a whip from him in the future.

tomek9210 wrote:What about Magnoli's super whip holders? Who is his supplier? On the website there is only info that they come from US.
If Joe decides not to write here, please keep us updated how the things are.

Wade supplies Magnoli's whip holders and straps for his bags.

Travis

My point is that he can copy and paste an email and we won't know. The only way for us to know is to see the email on the account by logging in. Screen shots can be edited as can text. Like I said, it's the internet. Call it "distrusting" if you want. We only have Wades account so far. This is the first account ever to come up against Strain in such a negative way. I'm asking for more proof. Plain and simple. If anything, I'm doing Wade a favor by asking for proof to make it more believable and final.
This reminds me of the witch scene from Monty Python a bit much.

If Wade's whip holder ended up in a future Indy movie, would it be OK to copy it at that point?

My thing is that Wade is selling copies of movie props (i.e. MKVII with leather strap) that someone created, and without direct credit to whoever designed it. Straight up he's profited on someone's creation...yet when someone does it to him he's upset.

I'm not saying what Joe did was right or wrong...but simply pointing out that Wade has a few bucks in "ill-gotten gains" from ideas that aren't his.

TheSavoryTrim wrote:First of all, I NEVER knew there were so many people making whip-holders until I read this thread. So, I learned something new today.

WhipDude wrote:And who said the emails weren't fabricated? Doesn't seem do cut and dry to me. Once again, it's the internet.

Well, true, unless Wade time-stamps like a boss and sends everyone undeniable proof, it could all be hoaxalicious, but honestly, why WOULD it be? I don't see Wade coming up with some elaborate villian-esque scheme, twirling his curly waxed mustache in a basement somewhere going "MWAHAHAHAH JOE STRAIN I HAVE YOU NOW!" all Snidely Whiplash-style. He even states legally there's not a lot of ground, but he just feels that it was shoddy and unscrupulous.

Which. It. Was. OR at least, that's the feeling I get. Instead of just ordering the holders from Wade and helping to support another business, he chose to save a buck and started putting out something remarkably similar. I would be EXTREMELY hurt and frustrated by this situation. I would feel totally taken advantage of, and I would probably turn to one of the few communities who would understand this sort of thing.

Wade is not trying to round up a posse here, he's just venting his frustrations and voicing a concern which he believes to be of interest to the community. And I agree with him, this highly colors my opinions on Joe Strain and will in all likelihood move my influence away from purchasing a whip from him in the future.

exactly what i was thinking.


What i'm trying to say, people will say about themselves all day that their are "ethical" and what not, and may even live up to it.

But if an opportunity arrises for them to make some extra money, many of these "ethical" people will take advantage of the

situation, this could possibly be what joe did, which i'm not saying he did, there may be some reason for this, but this is what it

looks like to me.

Joe Strain has been in contact with me regarding this situation. Before everyone jumps to vilify him, please keep in mind there are two sides of the story. While he prefers not to draw this dispute out in a public forum setting, he is sharing information with me, including his correspondence with Wade. The Administrative staff and myself will be reviewing this information while looking into Joe’s side of the story.

Louie, you are right David did publish detailed instructions on making his whip; perhaps in this case Terry Jacka would have made a better example. My point is not to imply whip makers where “ripping him off” by making Indy whips, rather to point out that calling this recasting is vague at best. Tundrarider, basically all this is a lengthened whip holder. The extra length allows for a double loop around the whip giving a more secure grip. That’s it, there is no secret that keeps it from not slipping and yes anyone can make them.

I'm sure that Wade feels this whip holder is his invention and that's fine. It's a bold claim though especially if you haven’t looked at the whole picture, outside of just Indy gear hobby. Credit where due, to the best of my knowledge Wade was the first person to mass market these; but to assume that that no one else in the history of whip cracking or the wild west arts could have come up with such a simple contraption is a bit arrogant. I have seen similar wrap around style whip strap holders used outside of the Indy community prior 2008, unfortunately I have no pictures or evidence that would sufficiently prove that so it's basically hearsay. As for why something like this would not have been marketed elsewhere previously if it is so successful. Well who said they haven’t been? Clearly whip maker Dusty Damrel at Crease N Corral is selling a similar whip holder and he has no association with Club Obi-Wan. There are lot whips makers that are no longer in business, Creative western performers that are no longer with us, and many that go unknown or who don’t do business online but yet I know of several whip holder designs made by creative whip crackers that have not been seen at this site yet work very well and have yet to be capitalized on.

Dan

BullWhipBorton wrote:Joe Strain has been in contact with me regarding this situation. Before everyone jumps to vilify him, please keep in mind there are two sides of the story. While he prefers not to draw this dispute out in a public forum setting, he is sharing information with me, including his correspondence with Wade. The Administrative staff and myself will be reviewing this information while looking into Joe’s side of the story.

Now we are getting somewhere!

Funny how there's another side.

I made one of these myself, for myself, out of a dog collar I got for 5 bucks at a pet store. I hope that doesn't make me a recaster.

Ditto.

I thought very much about what I wanted to say before I said it and I bounced it off of a few trusted colleagues before posting. I stand by everything I said in that post as well as hundreds of documented posts on this very forum. I knew people would jump on one band wagon or the other and I really struggled with the decision to post this information. Regardless of all of the mighty semantics the basic wrongdoing here was disrespectful and unprofessional way Joe treated me. You can dig and dig and compare all the things you want to but the exact design that I promoted as my own (which all you nay sayers had every opportunity to chime in your opinions on many times over and I've never heard a anything from you until now!) was initially sent to Joe Strain by myself personally. I have the original correspondence from Joe in which he states he's never seen it before. A couple months later he's selling the exact same thing on his site using the photo of one he bought from me on his site. If that sits well with you then great. It doesn't with me and that's what I've said.

That some of you're only responses here are to discredit me or attack my credibility in some way is simply disappointing. The real issue is the complete lack of professionalism and respect Joe showed me in this particular situation. To just bash me and the items I offer is completely diverting the attention from the real issue which has been clearly laid out in my first post.

As I've stated quite clearly, there is nothing I can actually do about what's going on other than post my frustrations. Joe has every right to take the design and sell it as I do not have a patent, and no, we didn't have a 'non compete' agreement. I have not disputed this. My sole point was that it was done very underhandedly as he originally was introduced to that specific piece by me and I feel a basic trust and professional courtesy was violated and that is my issue. Turning this on me isn't addressing the exact issue that has been laid out for you here. It's just band wagoning and justifying semantics. Sure, I knew of Todd's, Adventurebilts, Kepplers, etc. but I never took a piece they sold me and copied it exactly and resold it. I have taken every concept and put out my take on it only as a reproduction. Duh.

TheSavoryTim said it for me perfectly. I'm not trying to round up a posse here, I've just vented my frustrations and voicing concern I really believe to be of interest to the community. Take it and process it how you want to. If you want to take stabs at me go ahead. I've done what I can do in this situation and said what I have to say.



W.E.

Hey Wade,

I want to be the first to apologizes straight out if you thought that I was attacking your character and the great holster that you are offering through our post back and forth. I am sorry and hope that you will forgive me if you felt this way. While we may not see eye to eye on this style of holsters true origin I do feel that your work should have been given full credit while being the poster child on another person's site. Once again I am sorry if you took offence to any of my previous posts, my intent was to praise your offering of this style of holster that others seemed to stop producing.

Kindly,
James

oh ya the tag line... Keep Crackin

I mean, if we want to go there, nothing REALLY ever is original, because everything's pretty much been done. Remember when the Slap Chop came out? I'd had an old school version of one for years, but a lot of people saw it and thought it was SOOO COOL, and it was marketed as innovative. Granted, the Slap Chop has a different blade, smaller capacity, and chops things a little better than my dinosaur.

And that's basically the thing. Wade has a product that does it better than some others. He developed it, Strain ACKNOWLEDGED the exceptional difference, and then all this happened. I am forgiving of a lot of things, but that just seems very intentional. However, I do acknowledge there are two sides, and I reserve judgement until Joe steps up and says his piece.

But, exactly, this isn't a witch hunt. And accusations should not be the cannon fodder here, rather it may be wise to sit on our heels until Strain makes a statement. Then we can all have much more informed perspectives.

Here's what it boils down to FOR ME:

Wade had something Joe didn't, and if Joe knew about these holders before Wade showed him the ones he'd (Wade) made, it's hard to tell, since Joe had never offered them before now. So, Joe acquires some of Wade's product; they must've sold pretty well, since Joe appears to have had the idea to make his own and cut out the middle man, adding extra profit for him. Instead of asking Wade for permission to use the design for the holders he'd received for the above stated reason, Joe found some way to reverse engineer the holder so that he could make his own, without asking or telling Wade, hiding behind technicalities and legalese. I don't think the issue here is "recasting," I think the issue here is that it appears as though Joe has copied Wade's design. This stacks, to me, because he had Wade's holders in hand for quite awhile and only started offering them after Wade sent some his way. Sure, this type of holder may have existed for however long, but Joe wasn't offering them before he had some of Wade's in hand. Either Joe copied Wade's design, or just so happened to come across pics of/info on holders very similar to Wade's around the same time as he received the holders in question in some freak coincidence. If it was the former, then it was done behind Wade's back, cutting off all communication with Wade once he had everything going. No matter what planet you're from, dropping all communication is suspicious at best.

Is it legal? I guess so, but it's also disrespectful, and a dishonest business practice. That's the main problem I'm having with all this.

I eagerly await the moderators' findings when their investigation of the matter is through. I really want to hear what, if any, other side there is to this.

I don't think anybodies calling him a liar. That would be harsh. Some of us just aren't willing to take everybody as fact immediately. His story could be true but somewhere in the communication, there may be more information to shed a new light. Strain says he's keeping his professionalism by not posting in the open. Not only that but there must be more information if the mod's have to look through everything of Strain's.

While it is not the normal practice of this site to get in between a waring faction of vendors, as stated by Dan we are looking into both sides of the story now. In the meantime, since a lot of people NOT involved are making posts which can lead down a dark path, we're going to shut this down until either a resolution or a course of action can be agreed upon with the parties directly involved.

COW Admin

It has been decided on by both parties to take this offline to avoid public flaming on either side.