Club Obi Wan

Okay, first of all, I just want to say I realize that most of you have probably never heard of Mike Brower. If you have, its probably through me from a previous thread, or through other whip enthusiasts who might have purchased a whip from him through eBay.

Mike is not a member here, nor does he even have a website. So, it's not likely that any member is really going to come across him or order from him. That said, I need to share this story. Last summer while visiting Anthony DeLongis, Anthony showed me a couple of whips that I hadn't seen before. They weren't super nice, but they were pretty rugged, they cracked well, and they weren't too heavy. In general, I liked them. Anthony said they were made by a little known whip-maker named Mike Brower, and that he made a pretty good whip for a good price. Seeing as how I liked them, and Anthony liked them, and they would be affordable, I decided to track him down.

Make a long story short, I got a hold of him, I wrote him a check for $575 for a pair of roohide 7 footers, and sent it to him in Michigan. Now, 8 months later, though I have spoken to him MANY times since then, I still don't have my stuff. By the way, he initially told me it would take 5 weeks.

I just got off the phone with him about an hour ago, and I just want to share with you our conversation:

ME: Hey, Mike, how you feeling? (he has the flu, apparently . . . )
MIKE: Pretty good, man. No worries, my dad sent your stuff out.
ME: That's great, but I really need to get that tracking number.
MIKE: Well, I'll have to get that from my dad when I get a hold of him, he lives a few hours from here.
(seeing that Mike has the flu, and Mike knows that I've lost my patience, Mike's dad has apparently done Mike the favor of getting my package to the post office)
ME: Well, whatever, I mean, hopefully I'll just get the whips soon, and so it won't matter.
MIKE: Yeah, hey, umm . . . tell me your address again?
ME: (I tell him . . . )
MIKE: Huh! . . . ? (like as if he's a little confused. I can hear it in his tone that he's thinking, "that doesn't sound like the address I gave my dad . . . ")

Let me interrupt our conversation for a moment. MONTHS ago, he claimed to have sent my whips. When they didn't come, he "figured out" that he had accidentally sent them to a different customer in CA. When the whips finally "got back to him", the reason he didn't send them right away was that he really felt that he wanted to redo one of them (I ordered a matched pair, by the way).

Now, MONTHS later, I'm afraid that he's trying to pull the same trick.

But before he got a chance to go that way, I LAID into him:

ME: Listen, I'm really tired of all these games! I don't have time for any more Bull ---- ! You claimed before to have sent them, and then had a snafu with the address! I don't want to hear this anymore. I want those tracking numbers, and I want them now! Otherwise, what proof do I have that you've done anything, EVER!?
MIKE: Look, man, I know you want to vent and all, (he sounds pissy) but they are on their way, and I'll get you the tracking numbers within 24 hours, but I have a lot of other stuff to do right now. And to tell you the truth, I gotta just say, after you get your stuff, and Anthony gets his, I don't think I'm gonna be making anymore whips, so, when you get them, I don't even want you to recommend me to anyone, because I'm not going to be taking any new orders I think . . ."

We exchange a few "polite" goodbyes, and I hang up.

Now, I realize I'm really screwed. If he "isn't in the whipmaking business anymore", I really don't have any recourse to hurt his reputation. Not that I'm not trying. But if he quits making whips, what's the difference, right?


So, I really just wanted to make sure that he doesn't take any more orders. If you EVER see this guy's named attached to anything whip related, STAY AWAY. He is a completely incompetent businessman, and as a whip maker, I feel I can longer even say that I ever even used one of his whips. (maybe he conned Anthony and just sent him a couple of whips made by someone ELSE!) I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be a complete con-man.

As for Anthony, though he already has three of Mike's whips (apparently), he too is waiting in vain for his fourth whip, and is similarly concerned that Mike is not to be trusted at this point. Anthony is hoping to get his order, but also is concerned that he may need to get his money back, and knowing my plight, he is trying to help me get mine if my order isn't already, "on its way."

I'm sharing this story partly for the heck of it, partly to vent, partly to warn people away from this person if they ever hear of him. Other than that, I'm just at a loss.

In the future, I SWEAR never to send my money to ANYONE for ANYTHING who doesn't have a) a website, b) a LONG list of happy customers c) some sort of way of proving that they really do have a money back guarantee.

I live in California. Mike lives in Michigan. I wrote him a personal check for $575 back in July of 2010. Anyone know if I have a way of getting my money back?

Daren

Yes...it involves a ski mask a tire iron and a nondescript vehicle with stolen tags.

I really hate this has happened to you. It sounds like you have definitely given the guy the benefit of the doubt for a LONG time, I don't blame you for lacing into him. As to the money, I wish you the best of luck, but I have no idea...but I do know where you can get a ski mask.

Travis

never to send my money to ANYONE for ANYTHING who doesn't have a) a website, b) a LONG list of happy customers c) some sort of way of proving that they really do have a money back guarantee.

I was going to point that out but there would be no need. I will second, especially, buying whips only from makers who have a LONGGGG list of happy customers.

Naturally, I hope you get your money or whip ASAP.

Hopefully the whips are actually in the mail.

And they are really nice...

Andy you have such a bad taste in your mouth you hate them and sell them to me really cheap!

Sounds like you really had a run of bad luck with whipmakers las year. I hope this year turns out better for you and that this thing with Brower turns out good in the end as your dealings with Graeme did.
In the end all I can say is good luck.

Thanks, guys

And Graeme, if you are reading this, I just want to say that I know that part of my anger towards you stemmed from anger I've had towards Mike since about October, and for that I'm sorry, (though I guess it was productive . . . ) Either way, I really REALLY appreciate how you've made things right with your customers. I wish I could have the same effect on Mike, but something tells me that he doesn't have the heart that you have. Graeme, I wish you the best!

DHW

RaidersBash wrote:Hopefully the whips are actually in the mail.

And they are really nice...

Andy you have such a bad taste in your mouth you hate them and sell them to me really cheap!

Believe me, it's a possibility.

DHW

Daren,

That trully stinks.
I hope you get your money back from the rat.

Sorry to hear this.

Daren, there's a cure. Stop buying whips!

binkmeisterRick wrote:Daren, there's a cure. Stop buying whips!

yeah you can make them for youself .

Hope this all works out for you and if i even buy a whip i'll make sure it's not this guy.

Actually, if I had the attention span, I'd probably try making my own whip! I do hope it works out for you, Daren.

binkmeisterRick wrote:Actually, if I had the attention span, I'd probably try making my own whip! I do hope it works out for you, Daren.

I've found that in the area when you are working on the 3rd layer / overlay, making a whip gets very discouraging, because it gets

old in that time. I've been working on a whip for about 3 days now and yesterday i got to that point, and i felt that way, when this

happens, just stop, and the next day you'll be ready to go again.

Another example, i did a whip out of very small strands ( 3/32" wide ) and even though it took much longer than to get to that

point than 3 days, once i got to that point, i felt the same way. After waking up the next morning i was ready to start again.

The few nylon whips I've made, have always been done over the course of many days. I do it in the garage where I have a big space to work in away from kids.

I would sit down and braid, maybe 6" at a time and go about my other business, mowing the lawn, shoveling the snow...
Yes, it takes longer, but then I find I have more patience for keeping the things tight and correcting mistakes.

DarenHenryW wrote:Thanks, guys

And Graeme, if you are reading this, I just want to say that I know that part of my anger towards you stemmed from anger I've had towards Mike since about October, and for that I'm sorry, (though I guess it was productive . . . ) Either way, I really REALLY appreciate how you've made things right with your customers. I wish I could have the same effect on Mike, but something tells me that he doesn't have the heart that you have. Graeme, I wish you the best!

DHW

Thanks Daren
That means a lot and it "was" you that snapped me out of the situation I was in and made me realize that I could make things right. I thank you so much for that. I really hope this works out for you and you get your whips Hopefully you will have them soon though it doesn't sound too good does it... You are a genuine, nice guy and don't deserve this to happen to you at all. I still feel like s..t for what I did and if I could take it all back I would. Now I'm looking forward and won't put anyone through that ever again.
All the best my friend and my fingers are crossed for you,
Graeme.

G-Roberts wrote:

DarenHenryW wrote:Thanks, guys

And Graeme, if you are reading this, I just want to say that I know that part of my anger towards you stemmed from anger I've had towards Mike since about October, and for that I'm sorry, (though I guess it was productive . . . ) Either way, I really REALLY appreciate how you've made things right with your customers. I wish I could have the same effect on Mike, but something tells me that he doesn't have the heart that you have. Graeme, I wish you the best!

DHW

Thanks Daren
That means a lot and it "was" you that snapped me out of the situation I was in and made me realize that I could make things right. I thank you so much for that. I really hope this works out for you and you get your whips Hopefully you will have them soon though it doesn't sound too good does it... You are a genuine, nice guy and don't deserve this to happen to you at all. I still feel like s..t for what I did and if I could take it all back I would. Now I'm looking forward and won't put anyone through that ever again.
All the best my friend and my fingers are crossed for you,
Graeme.

Thanks, Graeme. I absolutely forgive you and if I could give you a big hug I would (INSERT GRATUITOUS INTERNET MAN HUG HERE). You are a super nice guy as well, and I always thought you were, which was why I had such hard time believing you were doing something regrettable. Suffice it to say, all of us have low points in life, and I'm very pleased to think that I helped pick you up and get you back in shape. Lord knows I've had my low points, and I'm pleased to say that when I suffered a bit of a personal crisis and expressed it here, I got a lot of support. This is a great community for that! Anyway, keep up the good work!

Rick, as to your advice to order fewer whips, I agree. In fact, this order that I made with this Mike fellow was actually the last order I made, back in July.

Now, the GOOD news is this: I DID get a Fed Ex tracking number today, I looked it up, and it looks legit.

Due Date: April 6!

Of course, it may only be a package that contains a note that reads "$#@$ you!" but at least it will be something!

DHW

Man, Daren... you really have had some bad mojo with whip orders, haven't you. I feel you pain. I hope it all comes out well.

I'm still really rooting for you on this one, but if you do get ANY package, even one with an unpleasant message, you'll have a
return address

maybe you can work off of that somehow to get your money back

riku1914 wrote:I'm still really rooting for you on this one, but if you do get ANY package, even one with an unpleasant message, you'll have a
return address

maybe you can work off of that somehow to get your money back

Thanks.

Yeah, now that I have the tracking number, I actually feel, for the first time since about October, that this is going to work out fine. You know, the thing is, it's not the waiting, its the fact that I feel like if I never pestered him, he would have just quietly forgotten me. That, and the lying. I am %100 confident that Mike has told me a number of tall tales. There are lots of artisans on these boards who have long wait times. That is completely fine with me. I can wait, believe me. I waited 9 months for my Jacka Indy IV whip. No big deal. But when the promised 5 weeks turns in to 8 months, and the person claims to have sent your item already a few times, and it never comes (this is the FIRST time he's given me tracking info, by the way) then I feel I'm obliged to lose my patience. The time he told me that it accidentally got sent to the wrong person made me lose just about all my faith in the guy. And he told me that in NOVEMBER! When the package "Got back to him" he then claimed he wanted to "start over". Yeah, right . . . .

So, my "package" is due to arrive April 6th. Stay tuned.

DHW

DarenHenryW wrote:

riku1914 wrote:I'm still really rooting for you on this one, but if you do get ANY package, even one with an unpleasant message, you'll have a
return address

maybe you can work off of that somehow to get your money back

Thanks.

Yeah, now that I have the tracking number, I actually feel, for the first time since about October, that this is going to work out fine. You know, the thing is, it's not the waiting, its the fact that I feel like if I never pestered him, he would have just quietly forgotten me. That, and the lying. I am %100 confident that Mike has told me a number of tall tales. There are lots of artisans on these boards who have long wait times. That is completely fine with me. I can wait, believe me. I waited 9 months for my Jacka Indy IV whip. No big deal. But when the promised 5 weeks turns in to 8 months, and the person claims to have sent your item already a few times, and it never comes (this is the FIRST time he's given me tracking info, by the way) then I feel I'm obliged to lose my patience. The time he told me that it accidentally got sent to the wrong person made me lose just about all my faith in the guy. And he told me that in NOVEMBER! When the package "Got back to him" he then claimed he wanted to "start over". Yeah, right . . . .

So, my "package" is due to arrive April 6th. Stay tuned.

DHW

I completely see why you feel the way you do about this, i wouldn't have handled the situation quite as well. I have great patience until my breaking point, which as i read your original thing my breaking point would have been in november, and i woulda been at that guys door with a whip of my own

Again, really hope it works out for you, REALLY REALLY do

edit: i just reread it and i thought it was funny " so I don't want you to recommend me to anyone."

Like you are after all this

DarenHenryW wrote:

G-Roberts wrote:

DarenHenryW wrote:Thanks, guys

And Graeme, if you are reading this, I just want to say that I know that part of my anger towards you stemmed from anger I've had towards Mike since about October, and for that I'm sorry, (though I guess it was productive . . . ) Either way, I really REALLY appreciate how you've made things right with your customers. I wish I could have the same effect on Mike, but something tells me that he doesn't have the heart that you have. Graeme, I wish you the best!

DHW

Thanks Daren
That means a lot and it "was" you that snapped me out of the situation I was in and made me realize that I could make things right. I thank you so much for that. I really hope this works out for you and you get your whips Hopefully you will have them soon though it doesn't sound too good does it... You are a genuine, nice guy and don't deserve this to happen to you at all. I still feel like s..t for what I did and if I could take it all back I would. Now I'm looking forward and won't put anyone through that ever again.
All the best my friend and my fingers are crossed for you,
Graeme.

Thanks, Graeme. I absolutely forgive you and if I could give you a big hug I would (INSERT GRATUITOUS INTERNET MAN HUG HERE). You are a super nice guy as well, and I always thought you were, which was why I had such hard time believing you were doing something regrettable. Suffice it to say, all of us have low points in life, and I'm very pleased to think that I helped pick you up and get you back in shape. Lord knows I've had my low points, and I'm pleased to say that when I suffered a bit of a personal crisis and expressed it here, I got a lot of support. This is a great community for that! Anyway, keep up the good work!

Rick, as to your advice to order fewer whips, I agree. In fact, this order that I made with this Mike fellow was actually the last order I made, back in July.

Now, the GOOD news is this: I DID get a Fed Ex tracking number today, I looked it up, and it looks legit.

Due Date: April 6!

Of course, it may only be a package that contains a note that reads "$#@$ you!" but at least it will be something!

DHW

Thanks Daren,
A man hug is all good with me This is a great community and I know that now I really hope you get the whips
Graeme

DarenHenryW wrote: So, my "package" is due to arrive April 6th. Stay tuned.
DHW

Today was the day...any news? Ive been dying to know how this all turns out.

darksideman13 wrote:

DarenHenryW wrote: So, my "package" is due to arrive April 6th. Stay tuned.
DHW

Today was the day...any news? Ive been dying to know how this all turns out.

tracking read "out for delivery"??????

edit: c'mon i'm dying here didi it come

Okay . . . SOOOO . . . .

I DID get a package on Wednesday. And . . .

I opened it . . . And . . .

There was . . .

ONE whip inside!

NOT TWO!!!!

WHY NOT, you wonder?

Well, I called Mike immediately, and he was prepared to explain why I didn't have both whips (of course, he made me THINK I was getting BOTH whips when he gave me the tracking info last week!)

His explanation is that he can't seem to finish the second whip, that the hides he has are no good, and that every time he tries to finish the second whip, it turns out like @#$%. SO, he has offered to give me more than half my money back if I want to keep the one I have, or all of my money back if I don't want the one he finished.

The one he finished by the way, is exactly what I asked for, so I considered keeping it, but, in the long run, I've decided that since I ordered a pair, that's what I want, a pair; if I can't have both, I don't want one. I have no real use for this one single whip. (I have many whips, as you all well know). Part of the charm of these whips is that they are a fair amount lighter than most of my bullwhips. As a matched pair, to be used together, it's an asset, but as a single whip, I see the lighter weight as a drawback, as the whip lacks power. Additionally, I don't think the roll out is super great to boot. So, that's that.

I called him this morning, and he understands, and he is going to send me my money back.

Of course, this isn't going to be as simple as all that. I'm hoping to get HALF my money within the next two weeks, and half soon after, IF he does what he says he's gonna do, but that's debatable. Hopefully producing this cash will be simpler than producing these whips.

Wish me luck!

DHW

PS. Of course, I'm ticked.

DHW

I am so glad to hear that SOMETHING has transpired even if it is not exactly what you want. I do wish you had gotten both your whips though. Matched pairs are a thing of beauty. Although I believe that if you had gotten two, they probably wouldn't match up all that well just going of the way things have gone. I am happy that you are getting this resolved.

Best of Luck
Luke
http://www.meyerwhips.com

This saga reminds me when I ordered a whip from Matt Welsby in Australia - I kept emailing/calling him and he always had excuses and it was always on its way....I gave up after a year. By chance I bumped into an Aussie working at a fast food place in a mall. We started talking and I did the whole "Hey do you know......" about Matt Welsby. Turns out this guy lives DOWN THE ROAD from him. He was returning to Australia a week later and I told him the story. He told me he didn't think too much of Matt and he would be happy to go see him and ask him about my whip. I thought "yeah sure" but said thanks. ONE MONTH LATER my whip arrives in the mail - with an apology note from Matt for taking so long.

Crazy story, but a true one - I ended up selling that whip for $300 (it left a bad taste in my mouth from the experience) - But I will always be thankful for the anonymous Aussie I met in a mall food court!

please hold the whip until you get some $$$ back

hit80s wrote:please hold the whip until you get some $$$ back

Naturally.

He said that he would send me $300 dollars soon, as in, within a few weeks, (I originally gave him $575, btw), and then after that I'll send the whip back, and he'll send me the rest. Naturally, he should send me all the money right away, but I don't think he has it!

DHW

Maybe part of his scam is , " i can't finish the whips, you want the money back?" then he sends you ahve the money, gets both whips, and does a redo. Yeah definitely hold onto it.

Hey Daren, you really make this a lively section of the forum . Some of it reads like a soap opera, the soundtrack should be the Benny Hill show theme. All kidding aside, I hope you get all of this sorted out.
Cheers

IndianaBravo

Wait until you have all the money and jerk him around for half a year to send the whip back. Just think of the fun you could have. I am waiting until the new postage stamps come out could be one excuse.

hit80s wrote:Wait until you have all the money and jerk him around for half a year to send the whip back. Just think of the fun you could have. I am waiting until the new postage stamps come out could be one excuse.

Wow Daren,

This guy is a world class jerk!
I really hope that he makes good on his (worthless?) promises.

Please do keep us informed of the outcome.

-Kevin

Daren,
this sort of thing ***** and one always feel like there should be some way to have been able to tell at the onset that things would go so wrong, but there often isn't.

I make whips on a part-time basis, and whenever I didn't ask for a deposit, I got screwed. So you see, it really goes both ways.

As a bit of comic relief to your saga, I thought I would share a story a friend told me. This is all true and if you knew him you would understand what I mean. Imagine a young version of Joe Pesci in Goodfellas, but who isn't actually a gangster.

So my buddy was trying to get his last paycheck for a job, but the company he had worked for was using an out-of-town payroll company to handle the pays and the employer had already left town by the time this happened. So he's on the phone with a guy from the payroll company, who is basically blowing him off. I'm sure my friend wasn't the picture perfect example of courtesy, but he had done the work and now he was being told to go **** himself, so you can understand how he might be a bit quick on the trigger.

So my friend didn't yell at him or even call back to complain to his supervisor, he just sat there and stewed for a while. He had diner with his girlfriend, watched some TV and went to bed. At 2 or 3 am he wakes his girlfriend up and tells her to get dressed, they were going on a road trip. So they had breakfast and got in the car before the sun came up.

At 8:30 or 9 am, the guy my friend had spoken to the day before comes in for work and when he gets to the front desk, the receptionist points behind him; there, sitting in a chair was my buddy. Now try to place yourself in this guy's head for a moment; you told a guy off yesterday just before you quit for the day. You go home, have an evening with the wife, go to sleep and wake up the next day like every other day and head for work, and the first thing you see when you get to work, even before you get to your own desk, is that very same guy you blew off the day before!

My friend was promptly given a check for the full amount.

I don't know about you, but a guy who is ready to drive half the night just so he can be there waiting for me when I get to work, is not someone I am ready to **** with... That kind of single-mindedness is not something to be trifled with.

Sometimes, people need to be reminded that the phone or the internet doesn't place you on a different planet, it just makes you feel like it...
Cheers,


Franco

That is a great story - instant classic!

( Hey Daren - glad to hear some progress was made on your order. Here's hoping the rest gets resolved in your favor soon. )

Daren,
Compared to your whips, I am begining to think that Odysseus had an easier trip home...

Allen

How about a pic of that Brower whip?