Club Obi Wan

Now, I want everybody to get this straight from the start...I am NOT making a definitive comment, just trying to stir up some healthy conversation about the films jackets.

I've read and heard Fedora say countless times that his early blocks were based on a caricature of the Raiders Fedora. They were a tad too tall, and a tad too blocky compared to what was actually used, but in the fan's mind's eye, that is exactly what we wanted because that is exactly what we thought we saw. Some of these were due to the translation to film and the odd angles that had to be shot for some scenes, and some were just due to our errant memories...

Funny thing is, I've never heard this mentioned with the jacket... It was bound to happen to it too, right? For instance; Were the pocket flaps really not as scalloped as we thought they were? Was the length longer or shorter than our memories or the film portray?

Just an interesting thing I thought of today...Discuss away, and BEHAVE!!!!!

Travis

No way to really get a good reply to this one, as there were over 40 different jackets used in just Raiders, and by at least 3 different named vendors. Every one of them was hand made, so what one person sees as being 'the' jacket with certain details in such and such a scene is different than what someone sees in another scene.

So, yes....and no.

I know some of the first jackets we were receiving back in the 90's looked like NOTHING we saw on screen.

Regards! Michaelson

I have said several times that I think we tend to exaggerate how short the Raiders and ToD jackets should be. I think it still goes on today. The most frequent criticism posted when people get new jackets is about length. We've studied it ad-nauseam, but I still think we aim too short.

Of course, that's a very general aspect of the jacket. With the finer details, I have to second Michaelson point.

I think your on to something there Hollowpond. I was thinking the same thing myself, and I agree Chewie's comments. I think that the trend we see particularly in custom jackets is to go significantly shorter and trimmer than I percieve the film jackets to be overall, but particularly the Raiders jackets. To me, it really doesn't matter how exact the details are to a particular jacket if the fit doesn't look right.

Weston

Have a look:
This jacket looks like a Todd's Std:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2995883264/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

..while this one looks like a G&B:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3096546560/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

...looks like a G&B or Wested:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2308017408/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

....USW Legend antique cowhide:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1592301824/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

...Wested:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2817038592/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

Holt, with your permission:


The Raiders jacket was a short jacket because the proto. kept getting hung up on his gunbelt and whip, so they went shorter. This still near the Well of Souls exit proves it. The jacket was an off the shoulders jacket, though.

I would also say that to get a good fit in the real world, you have to get a jacket made to fit you, not Ford.

But if you want to talk about what the jacket actually was, we can do that too. SA is not always the best thing in the real world.

I would also suggest that the flaps on some jackets made today and the not too distant past, the flaps at least, were charicatures of the original.

Totally agree.


I think it's just hard for a lot of folks to realize that Ford was scrawny. Yeah, he may have had some muscle tone but he was a small guy. And that's where the problem lies, most don't have his body shape and get upset when a jacket they order doesn't sit right, have a certain look from a certain shot, etc.


...and that's why a lot of us have soooo many jackets.


we want a certain look but, it's not happening:lol:

Abe Lincoln might could have stepped right into Ford's jacket, but most couldn't. Probably best to get your own "member" screen accurate jacket. I would agree though that the details need to be right. If the details are there, then get one to fit you by all means.

_ wrote: The key to a proper fit is to ignore Ford and SA. SA is the worst thing to have ever come along here. It is s "discipline" that pretends to know so much that is simply "made-up." It has done nobody any good... JMO...

Well said!



Weston

prophylactic line

................Genius....

I am going to use that from here on until I die..

As for the discussion, yeah, I think I agree with all here, aiming at a basic "idea" based on one's own frame is always going to give you a jacket that looks decent and is close enough to satisfy the "gearhead" side too.. People who fuss about the smallest details are pushing it.. Unless you can walk around in one pose without the jacket falling out of shape, you need to realise that your jacket isn't a screenshot..

And yeah, detailing THAT to anyone of the opposite sex would be a deeply stupid thing to do... (Although, if you didn't want to procreate I guess it's a good defensive maneuver?)

_...Quality sir...Thanks!

Chewbacca Jones wrote:I have said several times that I think we tend to exaggerate how short the Raiders and ToD jackets should be. I think it still goes on today. The most frequent criticism posted when people get new jackets is about length. We've studied it ad-nauseam, but I still think we aim too short.

Of course, that's a very general aspect of the jacket. With the finer details, I have to second Michaelson point.

The real length of the Raider and TofD are known, yes?

_ wrote:I agree with Chewie and Michaelsons points. On the "too short" it U's exaggerated by fords build. Long monkey arms and short waisted - accentuated by trousers that sit high above where we today wear our jeans, etc. Most have a longer torso than ford. Most have shorter arms this is relatively speaking. Achieving s relative correct look means getting a jacket with little caricaturing - or exaggeration. Fords build when younger was an exaggeration by itself.

My build is at another extreme do if you look at a jacket that properly fits me, it does not look right by itself.

The key to a proper fit is to ignore Ford and SA. SA is the worst thing to have ever come along here. It is s "discipline" that pretends to know so much that is simply "made-up." It has done nobody any good... JMO...

I never thought a lot about it, but I resemble your description of Ford's proportions rather well... long arms, short waist, long legs, about 6'1" and 185 lbs or so. For what it's worth, it's the shorter jackets that finally made the grade - obviously custom, as regular sizes don't generally come with long enough sleeves. My first Nowak was a bit too long, and I learned from that (and Tundrarider) to go with a shorter cut.

As for the screen shot stuff, I think some guys have done a good job, and made compelling cases for which jackets appear in which scenes. But when it's all said and done, it comes down to what you want the jacket to look like on you, and you can pick a scene, since there are so many, but you'll never get a single jacket that matches every scene, clearly. Pick the look you're going after, and adjust accordingly.

A good example is the pic of Holt next to Ford previously. The jacket is a dead ringer, but Holt is way bigger than Ford was. I always liked that about Ford. He didn't look like he'd be a match for those big villains, but he took 'em on anyway. I don't think they could have done that with 6'4" Selleck as well.

I aways thought the point was that Indy/Ford was an ordinary man in an extrodinary situation, with an ordinary (albeit slightly toughened physique). As Spielberg said it back then: "unlike James Bond, Indy gets battered and bruised". Of course today's Bond actually gets hurt. Everything evolves.

The jacket. There is good SA and there is bad SA. The good is where you and I are able to get a jacket that appears screen accurate. In other words, isn't purple or an A2; it is a reasonable fascimilie. In this we should be able to tolerate some diversity in patterns and construction.

The bad SA is where the fans start counting stitches and measuring pocket placement on their laptop screen. I like to consider these folk Jacket Fundamentalists.

I actually think, Hollowpond, that we do look at teh jacket in the way you have described. Too often. Perception and tricks of lighting have been regular themes.

Just today I was replying to an email from one of my old friends in this hobby, and remarked that when it comes to the jacket these days, all I'm interested in now is quality and longevity.

Details? Who cares?



Regards! Michaelson

Hollowpond wrote:I've read and heard Fedora say countless times that his early blocks were based on a caricature of the Raiders Fedora. They were a tad too tall, and a tad too blocky compared to what was actually used, but in the fan's mind's eye, that is exactly what we wanted because that is exactly what we thought we saw. Some of these were due to the translation to film and the odd angles that had to be shot for some scenes, and some were just due to our errant memories...

Funny thing is, I've never heard this mentioned with the jacket... It was bound to happen to it too, right? For instance; Were the pocket flaps really not as scalloped as we thought they were? Was the length longer or shorter than our memories or the film portray?
Travis

I think a difference is "we've" (_ and others ) have had access to screen-used jackets, both Hero (as loose a term as that may be) and Stunt, which has allowed for detailed specs to be used by various vendors in recreating jackets. To recreate the ROLA fedora, all Fedora (and others) have as a source is the film, beginning with the caricature hats and evolving into the 'real world' proportions we have today.

That being said, we know that the vendors were then pressured over the years to make changes to the patterns to meet customer demands. Things like length, tightness/looseness of drape, etc. were based on the 'fan's mind's eye' and actually moved the jackets away from the original pattern rather than closer to it. It seems that collars and pockets (both size and especially flaps) are most commonly caricatured due to the translation from real world - to film - to a fan's eye/mind - back to the real world. As _ said, there will always be a subset of the fans that will tilt at windmills to get the 'dead-ringer' jacket.

Trousers would seem to be another area where no one will ever be 100% satisfied, but that's for another post.

Michaelson wrote:Just today I was replying to an email from one of my old friends in this hobby, and remarked that when it comes to the jacket these days, all I'm interested in now is quality and longevity.

Details? Who cares?

Regards! Michaelson

As always, sir, you show you 'know things.'


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

All true. And if a mere jacket copied from a fictional film character can initiate this many views and engender so much hostility, what hope for settling the turmoils of geopolitcs?

Indiana Jeff wrote: I think a difference is "we've" (_ and others ) have had access to screen-used jackets, both Hero (as loose a term as that may be) and Stunt, which has allowed for detailed specs to be used by various vendors in recreating jackets. To recreate the ROLA fedora, all Fedora (and others) have as a source is the film, beginning with the caricature hats and evolving into the 'real world' proportions we have today.

That being said, we know that the vendors were then pressured over the years to make changes to the patterns to meet customer demands. Things like length, tightness/looseness of drape, etc. were based on the 'fan's mind's eye' and actually moved the jackets away from the original pattern rather than closer to it. It seems that collars and pockets (both size and especially flaps) are most commonly caricatured due to the translation from real world - to film - to a fan's eye/mind - back to the real world. As _ said, there will always be a subset of the fans that will tilt at windmills to get the 'dead-ringer' jacket.

My point exactly just stated slightly more elequently...

Michaelson wrote:Just today I was replying to an email from one of my old friends in this hobby, and remarked that when it comes to the jacket these days, all I'm interested in now is quality and longevity.

Details? Who cares?



Regards! Michaelson

I'm in the same boat! I seriously have found my perfect jacket in a 2003 Goat Wested Raiders pattern...with press studs! Do you know how many OCDer's around here that would drive CRAZY!!!
The hide is a perfect weight/toughness, the dimensions are perfect (as far as fit goes), the press studs are completely functional, and it looks good on me! What more could I ask for?

But, as IJ has so rightly put it, we the fans have put pressure on the jacket makers to tweak things to more correctly (incorrectly) represent what we think we see. This was my interest from the start. Great conversation!

I'm rarely accused of speaking elequently.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Well, I don't talk to trees and didn't formerly have gills. I just said my proportions resemble _'s description of Ford pretty well. No delusions, I'm not trying to stop a truck on horseback...

As for Holt's jacket, I like acknowledging all the hard work he's done with Wested over the years, and to my eye, other than Holt's more athletic build, he's done a great job of it. If "dead ringer" offends, perhaps I'll just leave it at, nice job Holt.

orb wrote:

Chewbacca Jones wrote:I have said several times that I think we tend to exaggerate how short the Raiders and ToD jackets should be. I think it still goes on today. The most frequent criticism posted when people get new jackets is about length. We've studied it ad-nauseam, but I still think we aim too short.

Of course, that's a very general aspect of the jacket. With the finer details, I have to second Michaelson point.

The real length of the Raider and TofD are known, yes?

Well, we have reason to believe certain numbers, but as _ explains, the measurements of Ford's jacket have little to do with how long the jacket should be on one of us. Also, when playing with the length, many aim for something too short anyway. We figure length on a jacket that's properly seated, ourselves standing erect, wearing modern pants. But Ford rarely had the jacket on squarely during the film, and didn't spend much time standing straight in front of a mirror. This skews most of our by-sight estimates. His build and the rest of the outfit also change things - not just where the jacket falls, but also our perception of it. People love to compare where the jacket is in relation to the belt line, but I don't know many people who manage to always have their belt line the exact same spot all the time. So, defending a short jacket with a handful of stills doesn't cut the mustard, as far as I see it.

For the most part, when I see jackets on gearheads that really look the part, the jacket falls a little lower than most people argue it should.

You know, the "warts and all" jacket that Tony made for me right after he had the original has those aspects to it that make the jacket look sloppy on me. That's why I don't wear it anymore. I'm at the point that if I wear ANY jacket, I want it to look good on me. I'm toying with the idea of taking that Nowak and having the shoulders taken in so it fits me better, like it's supposed to. After all, as Tony would've said, it's just a @#$%ing jacket.

_ wrote: It's - in my opinion - manic in and of itself. And when people who make such claims are questioned/challanged they often react with vilification (you must be in league with so-and-so), obsession (stalking behavior), and - again frankly - "taking up arms and pledging revenge." Never openly challenge the manic. They'll project their neurosis upon you, then set-up their own camp with no other purpose but to discredit those they feel are against them and wage a crusade.

Not to derail my own thread here, but for those that think _ is crazy. This info right here is DEAD...ON...THE...MONEY...Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

Travis

_ wrote: I'd forgotten that he'd done yours that way. You know, the only jackets Ford felt compelled to keep were his Last Crusade (because he thought he was done) and then the CS because it was a nice jacket. He also has - and wears - an early Expedition.

Yeah, Tony was also pretty adamant about doing it that way. At first, I tried to tell him how I wanted my jacket, but he wouldn't make me anything other than a carbon copy! It's a great jacket, and it means too to me to ever sell it, but it's meant to be worn. So if it means taking it in for a small alteration, that's what I'll likely have done at some point.

Was the film jacket Tony had one of Peter's or made by Cooper?

And is there a thread which lists the things that were badly made on this jacekt? I know the jacket was badly cut but what does that mean? Were the panels crooked, etc?


Has anyone found out why the jacket was the same length front and back? Was that just poor work or intended?

This bring me to a point that I often ponder...

All the history of all the jackets is interesting,but it's just that....HISTORY!!!

I think I speak for a lot of the "sane?" element of this hobbie when I say

"I don't really care that much about who made what back in the day,who can make me the most SA (with in reason) jacket now!!"

Both US Wings/Cooper and Wested have claims (I'm not in any camp ) about making the Raiders jacket,but both there offerings are not quite right.

I just think that we would be better off looking at who makes the best NOW rather than who made what 30 odd years ago.

But even then we get disciples of certain vendors who shoot down other vendors and owners of there product just because they are not in there "club".

Indiana Dymond wrote:"I don't really care that much about who made what back in the day,who can make me the most SA (with in reason) jacket now!!"

Which brings us nicely to the start of this post. The whole issue is fans wanting what they 'perceive' to be the most SA jacket now. And what's perceived what's on screen is going to vary by as viewpoints as we have members.

Vendors have had screen-used jackets to copy stitch for stitch and fans were not satisfied. Brings me back to my often used example of a friend who had a screen used Star Trek costume and was inevitably picked apart by other fans at Cons for all the errors in its SA-ness.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

This may be somewhat deflating, but we’ve spent an awful lot of time chasing what turned out to be a badly made unwearable piece of junk. It’s kind of a shame because when properly executed, this design is both functional and comfortable. Over time and many purchases, I’ve come to look at SA as nothing more than an excuse to buy a new jacket. Self-examination can be cruel, but I have to be honest with myself. Once I got past this point in the hobby, I actually started to enjoy the jacket I was wearing. Just think, if you're new to the hobby, you could just start enjoying whatever jacket you have now. Just a thought...

-P-

Indiana Jeff wrote:...in its SA-ness.

I'm sorry. Anyone who can read that out loud and not snicker is a more mature man than me!

Weston

Weston wrote:

Indiana Jeff wrote:...in its SA-ness.

I'm sorry. Anyone who can read that out loud and not snicker is a more mature man than me!

Weston

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

_ wrote:Sorry - tangent... But he was a guy who first and foremost said "wear em!"

...and I am...today, in fact.

Regard! Michaelson

What this all boils down to is, no matter what jacket I get, it’s just me in a leather jacket. I’m not ever going to be Indy no matter how much I spend or how anal I get with details. It’s enough that when I slip on the jacket maybe I stand a little taller. The spirit sticks with me. No one I pass on the street will ever know except that I’m wearing a brown jacket when everyone else is wearing black.

-P-

Prescott wrote:What this all boils down to is, no matter what jacket I get, it’s just me in a leather jacket. I’m not ever going to be Indy no matter how much I spend or how anal I get with details. It’s enough that when I slip on the jacket maybe I stand a little taller. The spirit sticks with me. No one I pass on the street will ever know except that I’m wearing a brown jacket when everyone else is wearing black.

-P-

As I've mentioned, Raiders was the ultimate source of inspiration for me at 15. What I received from the movie was a desire to live that exciting life. I suppose what I've attempted to do in the past was to find a jacket that basically captured that sense of adventure and zest for life/live for the moment that I saw taking form on the big screen all those years ago. But it is not necessarily about strips of leather sewn together, so much as it is a state of being.

Prescott wrote:This may be somewhat deflating, but we’ve spent an awful lot of time chasing what turned out to be a badly made unwearable piece of junk. It’s kind of a shame because when properly executed, this design is both functional and comfortable. Over time and many purchases, I’ve come to look at SA as nothing more than an excuse to buy a new jacket. Self-examination can be cruel, but I have to be honest with myself. Once I got past this point in the hobby, I actually started to enjoy the jacket I was wearing. Just think, if you're new to the hobby, you could just start enjoying whatever jacket you have now. Just a thought...

-P-

That's why I ended my quest for the perfect Indy jacket with the G&B Expedition. It fits all the criteria for me.