Club Obi Wan

A question for those of you that have ordered and received custom hats in the past. I just recently received a hat from a hatter. It doesn't matter who, as it has happened before from a different hatter.

I measure my head several times and get a measurement of 22 1/4 or 22 3/8. The hatter gets that measurement and I get the hat back. The hat is loose on the sides, almost loose enough for my pinkie finger to fit. However, when I run a piece of tape around the inside and measure it, I get the size I gave as a measurement.

Another hat I bought from a member, who said the hat was a true 22 1/4. This hat fit perfectly to just a touch tight when I first got it and fits very well now that I've worn it a lot. Running a piece of tape and measuring it gives me 21 3/4.

What gives? Like I said, this has happened with two different hatters. I admit that the very first time I ordered a custom hat there were mis communications between me and the hatter and I measured wrong (too low on the back of the head).

So for you more experienced people out there, should the inside of the sweatband be my head size or what? Why are the hats so loose on the sides of my head? One thing I've never determined is if I'm a long oval and if that would affect hat sizing.

I'm not trying to bash any hatters, which is why I'm not mentioning names. I just want to figure this out so I can finally get a custom hat that FITS.

Thanks!
Riothamus

First it sounds to me that you could be a long oval. 2nd, it's not likely you are measure ring correctly the inside of the sweatband. Unless you have a tool for doing just that, you are not going to get a accurate measurement.

Oak is, naturally, 100% right about measuring the inside sweatband. If you do it right, it should reflect your head measurement. But it's not a simple thing to do.

I also agree that you could be long oval, or maybe just have a head shape that leaves room on the sides. I have ONE side that does that. But I find that a hat tends to break in and conform to your head shape. As long as the hat isn't plopping down to your ears, you should be ok.

Another thing - not every hatter sizes the same way. Some make exactly what you say, some add some room for shrinking or inaccuracies. Some add a lot. If you gave both measurements (1/4 and 3/8) to the same hatter, he also might just go for the larger measurement. Better big than small.

In the end, every hat will fit different. I have hats from the same hatter that don't fit the same. Some shrink more, some are stiffer, some rounder, some longer, etc. Variation is, for good or bad, inevitable.

Same here. I have a few custom lids. They all fit differently, but are supposed to be the same size. Some started tight and slackened with wear and others have tightened. In general, nothing too drastic and they all still fit like a custom should.

Ian

Is their a way to have a new custom hat to fit a certain head shape right out of the box? I know that it will conform over time, but should the hatter be informed before construction of the hat?

-Scott

There are differing opinions about that, Scott. A couple of hatters use something called a conformer, which is a contraption that records the size and sahpe of your head. Some say it makes a difference, others say not. I think it does, but the difference is minimal in my experience. The big benefit is if you don't know you're a long oval, this will inform you right quick.

I have a one and will send it out to first time customers upon request but here us the thing. Most people have a hard time getting their own measurements correct using a tape measurer. Imagine a tool that has nearly 30 moving parts. Most can't handle one moving part like a tape measurer. I don't mean to come off like a jerk but it's the truth. I have my block maker re designing my conformer to make it more user friendly. It will be a one of a kind creation based of the old conformer but hopefully it will be easy for the customer to use. I will also make a video on how to use it once it is done.

Now, after stating this. Unless you have an extreme long oval or round oval and don't know it. Over time a soft hat with little stiffener will change to where the sweatband want to go. Most sweatband will form to your head. If I have a customer who know they are a long oval or round oval I can adjust for that. If they don't then getting the conformer would be the best way to go but it isn't easy to use. It will also raise the cost of the hat and the info will be based off of the user not the hat maker.

There are always give and takes in anything.

Very Interesting, It would be great to see one of those in action!

I guess the natural conforming of a hat would be considered part if the "break-in" stage of a new hat.

Great info guys, Thanks!

-Scott

For me, part of it was trying to work out how tight to pull the tape measure and where exactly you measure.

My size, 59cm felt really tight when I measured, but that is my hat size. At first I thought I was a 59.5 or a 60, but Steve sent me a 23 1/4" based on my 3 measurements and some discussion. It fits perfectly.

Ian

Ian wrote:For me, part of it was trying to work out how tight to pull the tape measure and where exactly you measure.

My size, 59cm felt really tight when I measured, but that is my hat size. At first I thought I was a 59.5 or a 60, but Steve sent me a 23 1/4" based on my 3 measurements and some discussion. It fits perfectly.

Ian

That's my point. You learnt sure about working a tape measure. No try something that has 26 movie parts.

How bout this? You put a very specially trained measuring monkey in a box, ship it out, the monkey jumps out of the box, gets his measurement, and bada-bing! A perfectly sized custom hat...

Travis

I have a couple of hats, made by Kevin O'Farrell, sized by a conformer. An interesting contraption. It does give an exact sizing, conforming to the shape of your head. And heads come in all shapes and sizes. But I've found the hats to be too snug. But that's a personal prefrence. What's important is determing if your head is oval, long oval, round, square, what-have-you, and working from there. For myself, I wear a 7 & 1/2 - round. And that works. A little steaming usually adjusts the fit.

True, and once you know your hat size and head shape, a good hatter can make you the perfect hat.

Just an FYI, I would not go to any hatter with a hat size. I have yet to see two hat size chats the same or accurate.

I've not had a conformer fit. Just given an average of measurements taken by my wife since it is indeed hard/impossible to do it yourself. Latest order did four measurements: 22 1/4, 22 3/8, 22 1/4, 22 3/8. I guess we didn't pull the tape tight enough. As I said, the hat from a member here fit a little snug when I first got it, but wearing and sweating in it has molded it to my head so it is perfect (It's a PB straw BTW, supposedly a true 22 1/4). The felt I just got FEELS good, but will work itself down to my ears. In my experience with hats, the sweat generally loosens up as I wear and sweat in it. I'll keep wearing this new one and see how it goes. It just seems like it would have to tighten up a lot to conform to the sides. Thanks for everyone chiming in. I really wish there was a local hatter or at least someone I could easily drive to and get my head measured by someone that knew what they were doing. It'll be a while before I can afford another custom hat. I was thinking of going with Penman and getting a Saraha or a moss green non-indy. I'll definitely do my best to figure this out before ordering.

High Regards,
Riothamus

Local Land Surveyor makes customs hats and it located in Georgia. Don't know how much of a drive that would be for you, but he's probably your closest of our resident hatters.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

BendingOak wrote:

Ian wrote:For me, part of it was trying to work out how tight to pull the tape measure and where exactly you measure.

My size, 59cm felt really tight when I measured, but that is my hat size. At first I thought I was a 59.5 or a 60, but Steve sent me a 23 1/4" based on my 3 measurements and some discussion. It fits perfectly.

Ian

That's my point. You learnt sure about working a tape measure. No try something that has 26 movie parts.

For me, I think the art of obtaining the correct head measurment and the complexity of the equipment are mutually exclusive. I use a myriad of measuring instruments, ranging in complexity from mircometers to co-ordinate measuring machines (over a thousand moving parts). Just didn't know how much of a 'feathery' touch to use when measuring my bonce.

If the 'gizmo' removes subjectivity from the process, then fine, but if not, then its complexity is just an added.....well....complexity.

Ian

I bought one of Mr. Penmans hats, and before he even started he sent me two measure (paper) tapes, one set to what I belived was correct and another just to check. Well the hat showed up and fit perfectly (naturly ). Well I sent my AB back to Steve to have it cleaned and resized with one of Johns tapes. Hat just came in the mail the other day and fits just as perfectly as my Penman.

Me Happy.
Long story short, go find these paper tapes, I'm sure John will chime in and tell us the best source to purchase them, use it to measure and send off to the hatter. How can you go wrong.

Croft

BendingOak wrote:I have a one and will send it out to first time customers upon request but here us the thing. Most people have a hard time getting their own measurements correct using a tape measurer. Imagine a tool that has nearly 30 moving parts. Most can't handle one moving part like a tape measurer. I don't mean to come off like a jerk but it's the truth. I have my block maker re designing my conformer to make it more user friendly. It will be a one of a kind creation based of the old conformer but hopefully it will be easy for the customer to use. I will also make a video on how to use it once it is done.

Now, after stating this. Unless you have an extreme long oval or round oval and don't know it. Over time a soft hat with little stiffener will change to where the sweatband want to go. Most sweatband will form to your head. If I have a customer who know they are a long oval or round oval I can adjust for that. If they don't then getting the conformer would be the best way to go but it isn't easy to use. It will also raise the cost of the hat and the info will be based off of the user not the hat maker.

There are always give and takes in anything.

The most common mistake made is in regards to measuring one's head. I always ask for 3 measurements, and then cross my fingers that the measurement is accurate. And going from experience, it is, 90 per cent of the time. And I have had to resize hats over the years that were either too small or too large.

Then, the hatter may make a mistake when sizing the sweat. Although most hatters will triple check the sizing as to help eliminate mistakes.

On the conformateur and its sister the formillion, this tool is very useful when making stiff hats, in order to get a comfortable fit. Especially if one has a head with "knots" or bumps present. And of course the comformateur can tell the hatter what shape the customer has, round oval, regular oval, long oval, etc. But again this is mostly needed if a stiff hat is being made. On stiff hats, its the brim more than the crown itself that keeps the sweatband in a particular shape. A stiff brim will tend to maintain the shape the hatter make the hat in, i.e. oval, regular oval, etc.

All that the formillion does is to supply the hatter with the exact shape of the head, bumps and all. He then inserts this exact replica of the head shape into the hat, steams or heats up the brim and then tollikers that shape into the hat, with the brim being conformed to the shape of the head. But if the hat is soft, this is mostly wasted effort. Wasted because there isn't enough stiffness in the hat or brim to maintain the shape you instilled into the hat. For the conforateur and formillion to really work, the hat has to be stiff, so it maintains the shape of the head, put into it by using the formillion.

The only way one can be assured of a correct measurement of an existing sweat, is to use a sizer that fits inside the hat. Measuring around the sweat with just a tape will seldom be accurate. But if you put a sizer in the hat, crank it out so it fits, and then measure the sizer, this is the most accurate way to measure an existing sweatband.

When measuring one's head this is best down by a second party. The key is to pull the tape as tight as you want the hat to fit. And to keep the tape parralle with the floor so it runs straight across the head, and is not skewed up or down on one side or the other. I generally recommend measuring one inch above the brows, as that seems to work out the best in most cases.

Sizing charts are generally useless as no two seem to be the same! Never understood why, but little surprises me these days when it comes to hats.

Most leathers used for sweats will shrink somewhat if you sweat in them, and then the hat dries while off the head. But some actually seem to grow instead of shrinking. Not sure why this happens as leather generally shrinks if you get it wet, and then allow it to dry off the head. And that was the reason many hat wearers in the old days owned a hat stretcher so they could maintain the sizing.

If you send your measurement in to the hatter and the hat does not fit, you can always send it back to get the right sized sweatband installed into the hat. Either you or the hatter screwed up, and there is not much anything worse than an ill fitting hat, IMO.

If one has a gap on the side, to where you can stick something between the hat and your head, you are a longer oval than the hat was made in. The quick fix you can do at home. Steam the brim, and while it is still hot, put the hat on your head and wear it until it dries. This should make the softer brim conform to your head shape. If the first time does not work, repeat the steaming until it works. If the hat is a real stiff hat, don't use steam but rather just plain old dry heat. The heat will soften up the shellac so the brim becomes soft enough to conform to the head shape. Fedora

I am not having these issues but I liked the Fedora's info.
Thanks Steve

Yeah, in my experience with our hat makers over the years, 9 times out of 10, measurement problems are always 'operator error' when it comes to measuring the head with a tape measure.

I've been VERY lucky with my own hats....but ironically the one mistake I once made came in measuring my eldest daughters head and sending those measurements to Steve for an AB of her own back 2005. (interestingly enough, it was black, so it predates Marc's shown black 'Indy' by 5 years. (grins)) The hat that came in practially sat on top of her head. It was WAY too small.

Long story short, I was off almost 1/2" or so in my reading of the tape when I re-measured her head. I must have been looking through the top of my bifocals rather than the bottom.

We redid the measurement the prescribed 3 times, sent the hat back, and what was returned fit her like he had personally measured her head himself. She was tickled pink!

So, even having a second person do it can lead to mistakes. Don't be afraid to check, double check, and TRIPLE check that measurement before moving forward.

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak wrote:Just an FYI, I would not go to any hatter with a hat size. I have yet to see two hat size chats the same or accurate.

Yes, I should have said 'head size,' not 'hat size.'