Club Obi Wan

Not trying to start a war - and I mean that.

But from what I read here these days (the old jacket write-up needs updating):

Raiders was Cooper (maybe with some Wested stunt jacket used)

ToD was Cooper

LC hero was probably a Keppler Flightsuits HH jacket. Was the back up a lambskin Wested, maybe?

Can we pinpoint for certain where Wested appeared in any of the films, or not?

Well, at least all the stunt jackets WERE confirmed to be Wested jackets in Raiders.

As to 'hero' jackets, those are good questions now, based on what we've been reading of late.

Regards! Michaelson

Has anyone considered the possibility that there was no jacket, that it was added in post-production? Air-brushing or CGI or some such?

I'm just saying...



LJ

What about the brown Members Only jacket? What scene did Ford wear that jacket in?

Maybe in American Graffiti?



Indydawg

Funny you should post this, as I was pondering the opposite today (at least about the Cooper/Raiders connection).

Was the Cooper the hero?
The Wings jackets (which have always claimed to have been made from "original Cooper patterns") always reminded me of the Bantu Wind and TOD jackets. In particular, the lower yoke.

Just me thinking out loud....

I dunno, but I likes my Wested.

And yet...we have the jacket that Wings now has out, based on what are supposed to be Cooper's patterns, with the high yoke, back panel with nearly NO gap, etc, etc, etc....(looking like a Raiders jacket to me...)...

What has ME pondering things now is....what exactly defines a jacket "pattern?" Is a pattern an exact blueprint for something that is never meant to be altered whatsoever or...is it more of a guideline? I mean how precise is a pattern for...well...ANYTHING?

If I make a pattern for building a chicken coop (don't laugh...I'm actually working up some plans tonight for my pasture-fed chickens)...and I sell those patterns to a business to manufacture them...but, they change a little something...like the placement or configuration of the gravity-fed watering system or some other such technicality....then are they no longer MY patterns at all? Are they my patterns but "improved?"

My point is....we talk a great deal about jackets being made from "original patterns." Are we all talking about the same thing? Just how "precise" should those patterns be to be considered "original" patterns? And how much "improvement" has been made to those "original" patterns over the years....

Could we be looking at what simply amounts to different iterations of the same, "original" Cooper patterns? The Wested jackets, the Gibson and Barnes, the Wings, the Todd's, the Magnoli's....and yes, the Nowak's....couldn't they ALL be simply "improvements" on the original Cooper patterns?

Or am I being too philosophical?

If they modify your original chicken coop pattern, then it is no longer the "original" pattern. Instead it is based off of the "original" pattern. In it now the "An Indydawg Style Chicken Coop, based on the original pattern". If they followed the exact pattern then it would be "An Indydawg Chicken Coop, copied from the original pattern." Any alterations (except for size considerations) become "based on the original pattern", in my opinion.

Here is what I am thinking, Holt and me have PMed and I agree with him with pretty much everything at least. The opening sequence leading up to the Temple might be a Cooper jacket, possibly a wested hard to tell since you do not get any really great shots of the jacket. Right when Indy grabs the sand before entering the Temple I agree should be a wested jacket. I believe you see the Wested jacket the rest of the movie, except maybe the Bantu wind scene (before Indy boards the boat, Truck scene, right before Indy gets dragged. And the old man scene Imam's House. All are very short and Imam probably has the best look at the Cooper jacket. I believe 1. the Wested backpanel has no gap. That is one major difference I see. Here is a few pictures of what I believe to be the Wested Jacket:







I think you can have both jackets and have screen accuracy, really it just comes down to your choice. I really don't think Wested is going to get you "the jacket" everytime, they have done my specs so far on the jackets I did buy, but that was 2 years ago. I believe the Wested jacket supplied is the main jacket you mostly see, the other one has to be the Cooper. It is very interesting and really has opened my eyes a bit. But then again, maybe Cooper made a jacket without a gap, then I am not sure which jacket would be where. But it looks like to me the Cooper has the gap and the Wested does not IMHO. If you want bigger pictures or more I can send some via e-mail or post links to bigger pictures. But I uploaded as many as I could onto my flickr account, I believe I am almost at my limit on my account. But I do think it is interesting that there is differences in the jackets and that both jackets were used. Just looks like one is used more than the other. Again Holt correct me on anything.

IndianaChris

Well, when somebody says they're using original patterns in costumes, it's a tangible cloth or paper pattern. I don't believe anybody ever had such things or if they did, they fell apart or were thrown out long ago. I guess the exception might be Tony Nowak's CS jacket, though he never struck me as a pattern kind of guy.

I guess I'm basically agreeing with you Dawg. To further muddle things is the difference between what we see and what they were (lighting, distressing). I think each maker takes a best shot from detailed measurements and scales it up and down for size.

If they modify your original chicken coop pattern, then it is no longer the "original" pattern. Instead it is based off of the "original" pattern. In it now the "An Indydawg Style Chicken Coop, based on the original pattern". If they followed the exact pattern then it would be "An Indydawg Chicken Coop, copied from the original pattern." Any alterations (except for size considerations) become "based on the original pattern", in my opinion.

Seems like sound logic to me....BUT, the "based on" patterns would never have existed in their configurations had it not been for the "original" patterns for them TO be based on...

So....the original patterns are STILL the original patterns...could we be looking at a similar situation here?

I guess it's obvious we are...

The question is....aside from the obvious WC mock-up cloth jacket that was the REAL basis for the jacket....is it possible that both the Cooper AND the Botwright patterns could be considered "original" since they were theoretically "copied" at about the same time and, theoretically, both appear in the film as evidenced by countless hours worth of screen analysis work from folks who, quite honestly, have FAR more patience than I do...?

Or...are we looking at which came first...

The chicken...or the egg?

You're right, Tibor...the jacket makers ARE just making a best effort stab at re-creating what they see before them...patterns can only be copied to a certain degree of accuracy...unless you are completely deconstructing an exact jacket for "cloning...." which is something, I gather, that Tony Nowak was able to accomplish quite adeptly...

That the film jackets had variations from each other is beyond dispute. No two Westeds ever looked identical to me (both of mine are quite different from each other), and for that matter, there are even small variations between my Wings Legend jackets.

So I am inclined to believe that any handmade item, especially made from a flexible material like leather, is going to be a little different every time even if made from one original pattern.

Weston

Aye, Capt...that it does, that it does!

Two distinct Cooper jackets in the mix does allow for a bit of variation in what is seen "on screen." Good call, too, Weston...I have seen exactly what you see on the jackets in question...not your jackets, but others...and NO two of my Westeds ever looked exactly the same...

I knew I could count on you, _...and now, if you'll excuse me...all this talk of chicken has me wanting some more of that barbecue from earlier this evening




Indydawg

Wow, and that's just Raiders. Am I right in reading that the LC hero was probably a Flightsuits (made for Mr Keppler) and that Wested was hired to make copies? If so, to what end - stunts again?

Not only are there variations in every handmade product, but it was a rush job late at night; that only increases the odds for significant variations. From what _ has said, it seems to me that SS was so ticked off with the previous jacket (the POS) that unless the jacket NC made was made out of pink bunny fur, he would have picked it regardless of the variations in the pattern.

CM wrote:LC hero was probably a Keppler Flightsuits HH jacket.

I thought the most recent conventional knowledge was that one of Lee Keppler's Flightsuits-manufactured jackets with the snaps that he sold through his ads made its way to the Lucasfilm archives. Then when Ford was told to pick a jacket from the archives for use in LC he chose that one. It then was sent to Peter, who based the LC jacket on Lee's as a prototype. I read all the LC threads, and I don't recall reading anything about an actual Flightsuits jacket being the hero jacket for LC.

SD

St. Dumas wrote:

CM wrote:LC hero was probably a Keppler Flightsuits HH jacket.

I thought the most recent conventional knowledge was that one of Lee Keppler's Flightsuits-manufactured jackets with the snaps that he sold through his ads made its way to the Lucasfilm archives. Then when Ford was told to pick a jacket from the archives for use in LC he chose that one. It then was sent to Peter, who based the LC jacket on Lee's as a prototype. I read all the LC threads, and I don't recall reading anything about an actual Flightsuits jacket being the hero jacket for LC.

SD

Fairly sure it was in a throw away line in a post by _ a week or two ago. I'll try and remember where it appeared.

_ wrote:The answer - from the guy who did the interviewing on all the referenced material, some if which is only partially stated - is probably not. Cooper made 2 jackets that night. During the Bantu shoot, Spielberg stepped in and declared the jacket we see ford wear in the stills (not film footage) and a piece of sheit, and handed Kelly Kimball the coopers and declared them the hero's.

Seems pretty easy to make the logical leap. Don't it?

_,

I never doubted your research. If that is how SS said it went down, that is how it went down. (After all, you have spoken to the man himself and have the paperwork to back it up. )

My question of "Was the Cooper the hero?" was more of a rhetorical question I was asking myself (not questioning the facts, just the "what ifs") I should have clarified that more in my original post.

Like I said, just thinkin' out loud.

Also, I should know better by now not to use the term "original patterns". It should be placed in the word filter right next to "SA".