Patterns Evolve

CM · Post by CM » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:18 am

On the subject of getting original patterns right:

I wanted to replace a non-Indy leather jacket I have with the same model from a premium bike jacket maker in my city.

I ordered the same pattern, size and leather. Knowing the company well, it was made by the same owner and same cutter as the jacket I bought from them 15 years earlier.

So what happened? The jacket I got back was fine, but if it had been a quest for a screen accurate Indy I would have been annoyed. Compared to my original: the straps were longer, the collar smaller, the length shorter, the lining a different fabric, the zip larger and silver instead of brass and the leather a lighter, softer hide.

The differences are what you'd expect from a hand made item. What I should have specified was a “life accurate” copy of my last jacket. But I don't care. The charm of a hand made item is the variations and choices made by the maker over time.

Any wonder the Indy jackets have varied in look over the years. The fans want what is a specialised niche market for a leather jacket maker. Not just an Indy jacket, but a replica, a garment frozen in time.

It's a hard ask.

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:49 am

I have come to realize tht the quest for a screen accurate jacket is a pointless effort.

There is only a few SA Indy jackets in the world, the ones that HF wore in the movies.
And unless you are HF, those few jackets won't look SA on you anyways (even if you are exactly the same size/build as Ford).

Any jacket you get, no matter how "SA" is only going to be a "close enough" copy (some are just closer than others

).

The whole idea of "original patterns" sort of makes me laugh when it comes to a hand made garment. Seriously, how long can a pattern last? Eventually the pattern will wear out and need to be replaced/copied. Over the years, that "original pattern" becomes a copy of a copy. A millimeter is lost or gained here or there, angles will change by one or two degrees. Then add to that the human error factor of when that pattern is copied onto the material, then cut out and sewn together.
On top of that, leather is an organic material, chock full of inconsistancies (even when it all came for the same hide).

To me, this is the allure of a handmade object. Each item, no matter how much attention to detail has been given, will be unique.
(However, I did not always have this attitude. This was something I had to learn to appreciate over time.)
I still desire the most accurate gear I can get my grubby little hands on, but, I am no longer dissapointed when a small detail is off. I've learned to appreciate what I have for what it is and am much happier for it.

Gringo · Post by **Gringo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:03 am

Kwad, that is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. Very well put. I was caught up with the SA idea also, then I remembered back in the 80's how much fun I had with just the "close enough stuff". The search for the "Holy grail jacket" is over for me. I'm just going to enjoy what I have.

Cheers to you and your wisdom.
Gringo

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:04 pm

It's really futile anyway. The jacket is an illusion - it's a movie prop viewed through a Panavision lens. It's an illusion that only exists on screen created in the magic land of make-up, duct tape, spray paint, and pixie dust. And it only exists for 115 minutes, no more.

Everyone's perfect jacket will be different. Find one you love, and be happy.

Forrest For the Trees · Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:16 pm

Puppetboy wrote:It's really futile anyway. The jacket is an illusion - it's a movie prop viewed through a Panavision lens. It's an illusion that only exists on screen created in the magic land of make-up, duct tape, spray paint, and pixie dust. And it only exists for 115 minutes, no more.

Everyone's perfect jacket will be different. Find one you love, and be happy.

Ha ha ha. Ceci n'est pas une veste!

All this time we have been fighting over what leather it is and who made it, when really it is just light projected on a screen! Brilliant!

Gringo · Post by **Gringo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:38 pm

Fighting over "smoke and mirrors", ya gotta luv it!I have got to the point that I do not want to know how the Magician does it,I just want to sit back and enjoy it! Cheers.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:31 pm

Fighting over "smoke and mirrors", ya gotta luv it!I have got to the point that I do not want to know how the Magician does it,I just want to sit back and enjoy it! Cheers.
[ Post details ] Posted: Sep Tue 07, 2010 1:38 am

I WILL drink to that!!!! What'll ya have, Gringo?

Gringo · Post by **Gringo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:08 pm

I think it will be a Jameson Irish whisky, if you please.Take care my friend.

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:52 pm

Gringo wrote:Kwad, that is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. Very well put. I was caught up with the SA idea also, then I remembered back in the 80's how much fun I had with just the "close enough stuff". The search for the "Holy grail jacket" is over for me. I'm just going to enjoy what I have. Cheers to you and your wisdom.
Gringo

Thanks Gringo, I'm glad that post made sense to somebody else besides me! (It was midnight and the prescribed Vicodin I got from the dentist was in full effect!)

I too remember runnning around my backyard as a child in the 80's, wearing my generic "pleather" jacket, my black crumpled up cowboy hat, and swinging the wood handled souvenier whip my mom bought me at Vegas....I WAS Indiana Jones!
(And when I wielded my flashlight, I WAS Luke Skywalker

) Ah, ignorance IS bliss!

The internet and "Screen Grabs" is the worst thing that ever happened to obsessinve/compulsive people.

Puppetboy wrote:It's really futile anyway. The jacket is an illusion - it's a movie prop viewed through a Panavision lens. It's an illusion that only exists on screen created in the magic land of make-up, duct tape, spray paint, and pixie dust. And it only exists for 115 minutes, no more.

Everyone's perfect jacket will be different. Find one you love, and be happy.

Amen Brother! I don't think the truth could be spoken any better than the above post from Mr. Coyle!

Gringo · Post by **Gringo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:36 pm

NOT speaking for someone else, but the "M" man would see(hear) what you say. Don't fret, he'll be back at the helm soon enough to get us blokes back in line from time to time. He just got the wind knocked out of his sails and needs time to come about!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:56 pm

"M" will still be around. It's just that you'll have to get used to the rest of us putting you folks back in line. Like ya'll ever listened to us anyway.

Gringo · Post by **Gringo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:05 pm

You got us there Bink! WE try, but we can be rascals on occasion. Cheers to taking a chance with us. I would not want to do it!

P.S. Today I hit my 200th post mark, not bad for 12 years. You can tell I kept my mouth shut in the early days because these guys scared me!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:20 pm

Yeah. It worked for a while, but he finally figured out we were more bark than bite.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:23 pm

Really, Gringo, I was a rascal before my sentence, er, being made a moderator. Michaelson just finally made parole.

Gringo · Post by **Gringo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:29 pm

My fav bark(para phrasing)," Its not 15 threads per inch you idiot! son of a motherless goat, its 16 threads! What planet are you living on!" AHHH! the good old days. Thanks M, that was fun...

Dawg and _ will like this one!

Gringo · Post by **Gringo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:31 pm

Well Bink, I can drink to that! Lets have a nice parole party for the (REAL) man!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:43 am

Gringo wrote:My fav bark(para phrasing)," Its not 15 threads per inch you idiot! son of a motherless goat, its 16 threads! What planet are you living on!" AHHH! the good old days. Thanks M, that was fun...

Dawg and _ will like this one!

Yeah, 'we' were a lot more polite back 'in the day', weren't we?

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:50 am

kwad wrote:
To me, this is the allure of a handmade object. Each item, no matter how much attention to detail has been given, will be unique.
(However, I did not always have this attitude. This was something I had to learn to appreciate over time.)
I still desire the most accurate gear I can get my grubby little hands on, but, I am no longer dissapointed when a small detail is off. I've learned to appreciate what I have for what it is and am much happier for it.

The CS jackets that came out of Tony's shop had slight differences one to the other. When you add changing sizes for a customer, you are not going to get completely SA. We even saw that with the Raiders jackets Tony copied in terms of the amount of 'gap' present in different jackets.

Even Steve will adjust the proportions of a hat due to the size a customer orders. Does that make the hat non-SA. Yeah. Does it make the hat a hat that looks good on that particular customer. Yeah.

I understand the point, but I still have a bit of a problem with the the idea of an original pattern "drifting" over time. If that's the case, then the jacket is no longer made to the original pattern. I think CM's experience would irritate me. If I went back to the company with the same people making what I think is the same jacket as I already own, and it came out with different, though subtle, specs; then it's not the same jacket. Now, CM didn't give the degree of differences so a mm or two wouldn't bother me, but if there's a 1/4 - 1/2 inch difference; I see that as a problem.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:23 pm

"Pattern drift" happens and I understand why it happens: mass production, change in leather technicians, bad hair day, the list could go on. If you are attempting to make a faithful reproduction, should it? I like G&B's approach. They got ahold of a screen jacket and simply reproduced it...it is what is, no more, no less. You wouldn't want a Raiders jacket morphing back into an A-2 in 10 years, as applying the full-circle analogy doesn't quite fit this time.

Most want a very accurate and faithful copy of that unique jacket, the one we continue to post about, some 30 years later...

CM · Post by CM » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:29 am

Indiana Jeff wrote:
kwad wrote:

I understand the point, but I still have a bit of a problem with the the idea of an original pattern "drifting" over time. If that's the case, then the jacket is no longer made to the original pattern. I think CM's experience would irritate me. If I went back to the company with the same people making what I think is the same jacket as I already own, and it came out with different, though subtle, specs; then it's not the same jacket. Now, CM didn't give the degree of differences so a mm or two wouldn't bother me, but if there's a 1/4 - 1/2 inch difference; I see that as a problem.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

The differences were substantial. 1/2 inch and 1 inch. Didn't worry me. I didn't have to buy it. I asked why, the owner winked and simply said, "I muck about with the cutting as I see fit, I don't run a museum, son." Or something like that. He did offer to copy my old one but I couldn't be bothered briging it in. Since I wasn't trying to copy a film costume I thought %$@# it!

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:22 am

SA issues aside, I'd have real issues with the cutting being 'mucked' with. If that's the case then advertise the jacket as a 1.1 model or something, not under the same name and pattern. It's not the same pattern.

Let's say I have a CS hat from Steve off the exact same block he used for HF and some years later I contact Steve to make me another. BUT the hat I receive this time has a shorter crown and bigger brim dimensions. And then when I called Steve, he gives me a wink and says he likes to muck with the specs of the hat. It's not the same hat and shouldn't be advertised as such.

I'm not a clothes hound so when I find something I like, I stick with it. If I had a jacket I really liked, but wore it out and went back to get the exact same jacket and didn't get it, I'd not be happy.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:38 am

With reproduction jackets the situation is different, though. If you went to one of the heavy hitters to get a really well made A-2 or G-1 for instance, it carries some amount of clout because it should be an exact copy of a historical, war time jacket. Most anyone would be expecting a very accurate reproduction of one of the original jackets that was actually used during the war, but you might be very surprised and disappointed to pay high dollar for a faithful reproduction, only to get something not nearly as faithful to the original? Of course, even among those war time jackets, there were variances from one contractor to the other. Despite the fact, you would still want an accurate copy of the jacket from the contractor you liked best. We're talking about minor variances, the style of scallops on the pockets, pointed or non-pointed collars, etc.

There clearly is a distinction. How many jackets are offered for sale on Ebay that are posted as "Indy jackets"? Type in "Indiana Jones jacket" and you will find many used A-2's are in the mix. In fact, most are A-2's. You'll see Todd's ad, maybe one or two G&B's, USW or Westeds on a good day. Yet, we don't look at an A-2 quite the same way that we used to, or as a casual fan would? To them, it is or at least it is passable as an Indy jacket. We understand that there is a "higher level" of jacket mania, approaching SA.

Yet, who in the forum, if given a choice, would choose an A-2 over a SA Raiders jacket, if you really wanted an Indy jacket? Without this attention to detail that a few have striven for in light of some 30 years of R&D, trial and error, we'd all still be wearing the dreaded, "close enough".

The faithfulness, attention to detail, etc., keepers of the flame as 'M' has put it, has defined and continues to define the spirit of what this site is about.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:05 am

Should patterns evolve? I say no if you want an accurate copy of the movie jacket. There is only one thing that I've added to the jacket and it did not compromise its look, the hidden snap added to the storm flap, and just for practical reasons.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:16 am

Texan Scott wrote:With reproduction jackets the situation is different, though. If you went to one of the heavy hitters to get a really well made A-2 or G-1 for instance, it carries some amount of clout because it should be an exact copy of a historical, war time jacket. Most anyone would be expecting a very accurate reproduction of one of the original jackets that was actually used during the war, but you might be very surprised and disappointed to pay high dollar for a faithful reproduction, only to get something not nearly as faithful to the original? Of course, even among those war time jackets, there were variances from one contractor to the other.

What's more, even jackets within the same wartime contract/manufacturer could be different! Some of the A-2 heavy hitters point out that during the war they were cranking these out as fast as they could, so they weren't concerned with a wavy stitch line or if the pocket shapes matched. Acceptable variances put seams within 1/8" either way, so jackets of the same size could even fit differently. The jacket makers will point out that the truest repro takes this into account, meaning that no two jackets—original or repro—will ever be exactly the same. This applies to the Indy jacket, too. Chasing the %100 SA Indy jacket is a pipe dream. Coming pretty darn close is a possibility, though.

As to the evolution of patterns, the fans have muddied them over the years in regards to the Indy jacket by simply making requests for changes to the patterns being offered at the time. We're equally to blame.

And _ and I were writing at the same time!

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:26 am

I agree. There is a point of diminishing returns, to the point where the minutia becomes insignificant, stitches, etc. Some things aren't worth getting worked up about.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:32 pm

Should patterns evolve? I say no if you want an accurate copy of the movie jacket. There is only one thing that I've added to the jacket and it did not compromise its look, the hidden snap added to the storm flap, and just for practical reasons.

I agree...as well as to the point that there are some things that aren't worth getting worked up about because...well...dare I say..."it's just a #$%^& jacket!"

Regards!
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:34 pm

Yeah, but by the same token, let's not completely douse the fires of those who love the chase of the illusive dream of looking for that ultimate jacket. That IS their reason to pursue the hobby, so there's room for everyone at both ends of the scales.

Regards! Micahelson

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:48 pm

well said M.......if not for that tenacity, someone else may have crowned HF with his latest fedora other than one of our own. it goes both ways.

in regards to binks comments on mass producing a2's........could you imagine if the 40's airmen were as picky as we are with our jackets?

"i said i wanted an exact copy of cpt. doolittle's jacket!!!!.....his AN inspector stamp is obviously 3" higher and 2" to the left of what you provided me!!!"

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:54 pm

[quoteYeah, but by the same token, let's not completely douse the fires of those who love the chase of the illusive dream of looking for that ultimate jacket. That IS their reason to pursue the hobby, so there's room for everyone at both ends of the scales.

Regards! Micahelson

][/quote]

Oh, absolutely, M! I've chased that dream round and round in circles for years....

Just have to sit down for a breather every now and then...

Indydawg

CM · Post by CM » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:29 pm

Indiana Jeff wrote:SA issues aside, I'd have real issues with the cutting being 'mucked' with. If that's the case then advertise the jacket as a 1.1 model or something, not under the same name and pattern. It's not the same pattern.

I'm not a clothes hound so when I find something I like, I stick with it. If I had a jacket I really liked, but wore it out and went back to get the exact same jacket and didn't get it, I'd not be happy.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

I don't understand that Jeff. All the jackets hanging up in the store were consistant (with hand made variances). It's just that the pattern had evolved since my one of 15 years earlier. Since the man created the pattern, I figure he had the right to change it. The jacket had the same name and for the most part looked the same. It was simply the most recent iteration. I consider that normal.

But then I am not anal, unless someone promises to give me the exact same jacket that I saw in a move, but when it finally arrives the *&^% pocket flaps look so different that even a friend of mine who isn't into jackets CAN SEE IT'S NOT THE SAME JACKET AT ALL AND I'VE BEEN LIED TO!! Oops... did I say that out loud?

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:47 am

Forrest For the Trees wrote:
Puppetboy wrote:It's really futile anyway. The jacket is an illusion - it's a movie prop viewed through a Panavision lens. It's an illusion that only exists on screen created in the magic land of make-up, duct tape, spray paint, and pixie dust. And it only exists for 115 minutes, no more.

Everyone's perfect jacket will be different. Find one you love, and be happy.
Ha ha ha. Ceci n'est pas une veste!

All this time we have been fighting over what leather it is and who made it, when really it is just light projected on a screen! Brilliant!

C'est un mirage, un fantasme, une image en mouvement de la lumière sur un mur sombre, quand les lumières s'allument la veste disparaît, comme les rêves de la nuit quand nous éveiller à notre réalité.....moowahaha!

It's a mirage, a figment, a moving image of light cast on a darkened wall, when the lights come up the jacket vanishes, like dreams of the night when we awaken to our reality. Muhahahah!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:15 am

Shhhhh! Fearless Leader may be listening.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:18 am

Hey, Rocky! Watch me pull a jacket out of my hat!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:19 am

Wrong hat.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:15 am

singsingjohnny · Post by **singsingjohnny** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:23 am

_ wrote:More like "Hey Rocky, watch me pull these patterns out of my ars!"

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:47 am

It's a mirage, a figment, a moving image of light cast on a darkened wall, when the lights come up the jacket vanishes, like dreams of the night when we awaken to our reality.

It might sound overly dramatic, but it's the literal truth. Props, buildings, actors, wardrobe... it's all been primped and puffed for its moment in front of the camera. HF might look battered and sweaty, but in reality he just spent an hour in the makeup chair getting his hair and nails done. His wardrobe has been gone over for hours getting ready for its minute on film. They are magicians preparing an illusion that we will accept as real. That vanishing cabinet with it's gaping black interior and glittery outside, looks like it contains the most valuable secret inside, worth any amount of money to know. It's just a box made from ordinary stuff, crudely painted, and patched a million times. They mystery inside is just black cloth, paint, and gaffer's tape that will have to be repaired again after the show.

The "real" jacket?

ThatManFromRio · Post by **ThatManFromRio** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:19 am

TMFR

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:20 am

Where DO you guys keep finding these old baby photos of me?!

Regard !Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:58 am

Probably the same place where we found this one of you.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:09 pm

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:43 am

CM wrote:
Indiana Jeff wrote:SA issues aside, I'd have real issues with the cutting being 'mucked' with. If that's the case then advertise the jacket as a 1.1 model or something, not under the same name and pattern. It's not the same pattern.

I'm not a clothes hound so when I find something I like, I stick with it. If I had a jacket I really liked, but wore it out and went back to get the exact same jacket and didn't get it, I'd not be happy.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff
I don't understand that Jeff. All the jackets hanging up in the store were consistant (with hand made variances). It's just that the pattern had evolved since my one of 15 years earlier. Since the man created the pattern, I figure he had the right to change it. The jacket had the same name and for the most part looked the same. It was simply the most recent iteration. I consider that normal.

Sorry, missed this post until now. If you are happy with your jacket, then that's what's important. For me, if a jacket is being sold as the same thing that was made 15 years ago then I would expect it to be the same jacket (hand made variances aside). From your original post it seems the differences were immediately noticeable and made the jacket itself look different (shorter length and smaller collar). That's not the same jacket to me.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff