Club Obi Wan

Patto, thanks for all the information you've brought us re the jacket. It's a fascinating story and a good lesson that in life few things are ever what they at first seem.

When I think of all the BS I have heard about the jacket since 1982 - here's a brief list:

It was a vintage jacket bought in LA
It was Harrison Ford's own jacket
It was made of vinyl
It was cotton, treated to look like leather.
It was a Macy's A2 -style jacket adapted by the studio
There was only one of them made
The same jacket was used in all films
One British maker produced them all

Without getting infomation first hand, we know nothing. It's great to finally be getting the true picture of how this cool jacket ended up in the movies.

What or who is Yj?

_ wrote:To be clear, he thinks we're all nuts...

Far and away the most sensible comment made on any of these threads. (And I certainly don't exclude myself from that description.)

For one reason or another, people become so wedded to one narrative that they become dogmatic and inflexible when new info is added to the history. For my own part, I gave up on trying to understand the who, what, when, where, how, and why of the Raiders jacket a long time ago. I just want one that looks frickin' cool, like the one on screen. TN succeeded for me where others failed. Beyond that, I cannot say....

I just want one that looks frickin' cool, like the one on screen. TN succeeded for me where others failed. Beyond that, I cannot say....

Well said! That is my sentiment exactly, I couldn't agree more.

_, I'm a newcomer around here but I really enjoy reading your 1st hand interviews and insider info. Thank you for sharing, it's much appreciated.

Cheers!

Oh, Mr. Cooper- you are SO right. At times, I feel like we're at the Mat Hatter's Tea Party...only he's not a hatter...he's a JACKET MAKER!!!

Folks...I'd like to make a request that we keep this thread FREE from any jacket related questions, musings, and, of course, flames or bating statements to either _ or Neil. I've already asked one newcomer to relocate a jacket question, so, please...if you don't have something NICE to say here, just don't say anything at all. I think we all learned that in kindergarten, right?


Highest Regards!
Indydawg

Come for the gear, stay for the... crumpets?!

"It's an amiable weakness"

LJ

In that case Indydawg, I'd respectfully ask that all members be held to the same standard.

Was there any jacket-related info in _'s post? It just seems to be there to flame myself and RC?

I'd hope I am given some sort of -non-inflammatory- right of reply, so here goes.

i don't think it's unreasonable or crazy to be asking questions and conducting analysis and discussion. Isn't that the whole point of this site? I mean sure, some of us are more obsessive than others, but there is nothing in my posts that is trying to be anything but logical and analytical. That's, in fact, the point of them.

Is it preferable to conduct a murder tiral with just eyewitness statements about a 30 year old event, and call all forensic examiners crazy and self serving? Of course not. But it neems whenever someone disagrees with Todd, and lays out detailed reasons-why, this is what we cop.

So, coming back to my rationale, I was PURPOSELY leaving people out of the equation - preferring to see what could be found in the most obvious (and ironically, most overlooked) evidence of what jackets were used in Raiders - the film itself. Given that and a few other external pieces of information, I think any person willing to apply logic should be able to see where I am coming from. None of it comes down to my little hobby of identifying jackets by grabs alone.

The short version, in bullet point:

- We can see very clearly numerous jackets in the movie. We can identify them by very specific differences in design features, sewing glitches and grain variations.
- One of these jackets clearly sees more screen time than the others. I dubbed it the MJ (Main Jacket). There are clearly identifiable grain striations on every panel of this jacket.
- This type of leather was INDEPENDENTLY verified by a lecturer / specialist in the field. He said it was not only lamb, but a very specific type of lamb. This matches Tony Nowak's informed opinion of the same.
- These striations, which are of a certain type, a certain distance apart, and fall on a particular part of the hide in a particular angle are unique to this specific breed of sheep.
- The shrunken lamb hides and way they have to be cut to fit the panels means that the striations on those hides matches where we see them on the main jacket featured in the movie.
- The closest match to calfskin in photos presented thus far is in the Imam's house scene.
- The Imam's house scene jacket has both design features, grain markers, etc. that DO NOT MATCH the main jacket used, OR the breeds identified by recognised experts.

I'm NOT saying Cooper didn't make the jackets for this movie. All I am saying is with the evidence at hand, I can't come up with a logical way how Cooper could have made the main jacket if the CALF info is correct. Anyone who watches the movie closely enough with the info at hand and takes the time to really analyse would draw the same conclusion.

I would be HAPPY if people engage me on this analytically. Because all I'm hearing is "You're wrong!" "You're crazy!" but no-one can give me hard evidence of why it can't be the case. I'm also HAPPY to be told I'm wrong, if someone can SHOW me why - and explain hoe their position is logical and supportable. That simply hasn't happened yet.

_ wrote:We ended up at Tao. I'm a sucker for their Chilean sea bass...

I ordered martinis and had him read the "Raiders jacket leather thread"...

The verdict?

Yj's full of @#$% and rc's smokin' rope. To be clear, he thinks we're all nuts...

Just a point that I think needs to be made - and it was Neil who pointed it out to me? I just report what I gather from athorative sources. I do not make myself the story. YJ? By what you are purporting to be able to do? You're making yourself part of the story. You are substituting your "made -up" skill (that does not exist) with the WORD of the people who were there. I am just a conduit - nothing more. Meanwhile? YJ raises himself above the word of even the producer. Who the heck do you think you are?

I'm guessing this post was edited? It couldn't be just about yj and rc?

I think _ you believe I'm against you, I'm not. Read what I said before.

Could the original information be put back up?

Well....ok, you got your reply in.

The original post was not meant to flame either you, RC, or YJ....they weren't even _'s words...they were Neil's assessment of the situation-and I thought it was quite light-hearted, at that. To my knowledge nothing was edited from the posts, save the one that I took down because it was jacket-related questions that had nothing to do with the intentions of the thread. But, no...I honestly don't think it was posted to flame anybody-REALLY!

In that light, YJ-again..I don't know what to tell you. If we were dealing with guys laid up in a nursing home with alzheimer's who couldn't remember their own kids' names....maybe it'd be different? But, this isn't the case...

Your response was very civil, though-and concise. Can we leave your reply at that? I mean, it seems you got in all your major points.

Let's play nice now, boys!
Indydawg

Hi Dawg,

But this is the thing - could you remember a day of work you did that long ago? The other day I had a client ask me about a TV ad I produced for him only 5 years ago and we were both struggling to remember key things. You do other jobs and move on. It's just the reality of things.

All we need now to complete the irony is for Peter to chime in with - "I always said it was shrunken lamb, and Tony Nowak he agreed with me."

All this trouble over a jacket, good grief. Isn't that what Tony meant by, "its only a #@!%& jacket!"?

Indydawg wrote:Well....ok, you got your reply in.

The original post was not meant to flame either you, RC, or YJ....they weren't even _'s words...they were Neil's assessment of the situation-and I thought it was quite light-hearted, at that. To my knowledge nothing was edited from the posts, save the one that I took down because it was jacket-related questions that had nothing to do with the intentions of the thread. But, no...I honestly don't think it was posted to flame anybody-REALLY!

In that light, YJ-again..I don't know what to tell you. If we were dealing with guys laid up in a nursing home with alzheimer's who couldn't remember their own kids' names....maybe it'd be different? But, this isn't the case...

Your response was very civil, though-and concise. Can we leave your reply at that? I mean, it seems you got in all your major points.

Let's play nice now, boys!
Indydawg

I don't know how it can be interpreted otherwise, that is as a slight or flame.

I'm targeted for agreeing Neil Cooper made the jackets and for emphasing the position of Tony Nowak, who despite the comments of certain people, held his firm belief to the end.
Unfortunately he is not here to tell it himself, for an umpteenth time.

Statements such as this "I can imagine him saying - "Calf, really? &*&%^%$ me I was willing to bet it was lamb, okay, so it's calf..." "
can only come from an imagination.

That's right RC, that's why I used the word "imagine".

Bottom line: Nowak said he got a lamb jacket. Cooper, who made the jacket, said it was calf. Lucas sent the jacket Cooper made to Nowak. Conclusion: hard to avoid it - calf.

It doesn't hurt anyone RC if you or others believe it was lamb, but this endless debate over one thing is getting boring. Why not wait around and see what happens next? New developments come in all the time these days.

I respect your point of view, but

No hard feelings - CM

_ wrote:Ya' just don't get it...

"For me..."
"Agin' me..."

Lol! Nothing here belongs to me. I've been around doing this from the beginning. All I do is pass along what I gather. It "belongs" to the kind people who agree to take time from their busy schedules to answer questions. I take no claim or credit - never have and never will. The minute one "creates" here, the minute they need to stop and walk away. Again - I am NOTHING but a conduit.

The attacks offended a genuine PLAYER in the game. You gents offended him with genuinly stupid positions. When you dance with the devil, don't gripe about getting scorched... And as said conduit? Yeah - I'm gonna report it. It is direct support for other opinions.

Can y'all step far enough back to "get it" ie what not just I but others are saying? Here and on my "informative" post wher you two dive down your respective rabbit holes? You both derailed a post of clear authoritive information with insane ramblings and claims.

And YJ - your entire attack (and it is an attack) based on this claimed ability is gonna draw fire. Don't whine when one of said real players laughs at your ridiculous claims of superhuman ability...

I think it is more important to protect the public from palm readers than to protect the palm readers... That is why this site was started...

So can you clarify what the "attacks" were? I've written stuff for peer-reviewed articles while teaching at a uni and nothing I've written here is out of line with a loose form of academic argumentitive style. I set up a hypothesis, and state evidence. I can't see why Neil Cooper would care less, much less be offended. And there's no need for YOU to get upset about it. I laid out at the end of my big Part 2 thread any criticism is all good and all in the fun of analysis. Why were my posts so threatening?

Any highlighting of an "I" position is actually reinforcing that it's my (subjective) position. If I were imposing myself as a voice-of-God, I'd write entirely differently, believe me! Taught those academic writing subjects for 5 years.

I wasn't whining. What I was actually saying "Well this doesn't make sense - and here's why." and at another point "I think this is a case where we can all be right". Hardly words of revolution.

And as with past arguments, you never answer the difficult questions posed - just cover them with bluster. Disappointing, but that's fine.

But are you seriously saying that observations and attempts to make sense out of this and that of the deatil of Indy's gear don't have a place on this site? REALLY? Isn't that what half the readership engages in? Trying to figure this stuff out?

If you actually go back, you will even see I HONORED your request to bow out of your earlier thread.

At this point I'm not even sure what you're upset about, to be honest... If you want to protect the public, great. Prove me wrong with evidence that isn't contradictory. That's all I'm asking you to do. If you don't want to or can't, I don't see what else there is to say.

No hard feelings CM.

I want to make it clear is not me saying it was lamb, it is the man who had the jacket in his hands.
I could post it in his own words, again, but out of respect I don't.

No new revelation has been made in this post, other than 'off ' comments to 'yj' and myself.


It would be interesting to read if Neil Cooper actually said anything.

I think the only way this can actually be solved to everyone's benefit (and to stop all the...disagreements...) is to take the Neil Cooper jacket that was given to Tony Nowak to copy and to get forensics tests run on it to find out just what kind of leather it is, then maybe everyone would be happy? (It ain't going to happen but it's a nice thought )

Personally I don't care if it was lamb, calf, horse, stoat or weasel hide that was used. it's a cool jacket that looks great!

Anyway that's all i'll mention about the jacket, I just wanted to add thanks to _ for going to the actual people who worked on the film, time and time again, asking questions and giving us their answers. Thank You _!

And YJ - Thank you for your interesting posts/threads regarding your analysis of what is actually seen on screen. I've really enjoyed reading them

Regards to all!
Joe

ok guys, cool it.


there have been enough warnings in previous threads and in this one to keep it civil. no more warnings will be given!

Yes...enough shouting over the table. Holt-feel free to lock it down now if you feel necessary.

Regards!
Indydawg

my head hurts Dawg. I think were sharing the same brain.


closing time.