Club Obi Wan

I think that this opens up a new hide for jackets?!

Thanks cool, thanks again _...


Can I ask where did you find that info?


I wonder what that hide looks like?

Also, isn't one of Todd's custom offering in pulled cow hide, maybe he is way closer than we think...?

whipcracker wrote:Can I ask where did you find that info?

_ wrote:Direct from Neil Cooper regarding the Raider's Hero jacket:

Indeed interesting to have another hide thrown in the mix and adds credence to all those who can see texturing.

Interesting information _, a 3 oz. oil-pulled calfskin, never thought of that. I always wondered if the Raiders Hero was a lambskin jacket now we know it is calfskin. He said compromise though, sounds like he was wanting to use some of other type of leather instead and made a compromise with SS? Interesting information.

IndianaChris

Thanks for the information _. Interesting fact thrown into the mix, hopefully some vendors can come up with something similar for those that would like this type of hide.

Here's what I think IMO; the Cooper was as _ stated, oiled calfskin. Where the Wested jackets that were made were more then likely made of lamb or sheep or whatever the skin type. If _ talks to Neil Cooper DIRECTLY and that's what he said he made the jacket out of, then that's probably what it is.

When I think about the subject matter of this thread, it takes me back several years to one of the original discussions I had with another member...and it reminds me of one of the first scenes of the movie, when he is putting the pieces of the map together (symbolic in a sense). Notice the cuff in that scene, the back of the jacket as it briefly enters the shards of light. Doesn't look like a thin piece of leather.

I always wondered if the Raiders Hero was a lambskin jacket now we know it is calfskin.

Not trying to split hairs here but we know that one jacket was calfskin, according to Cooper. There are at least (by all appearances) two main hero jackets used (quite possibly more).

Edited to add that I realize that the Cooper jacket has become known as (I believe so anyway) the main hero in these discussions. But there is at least one other jacket that gets quite a bit of screen time (again, by all appearances). We (or, at least, I) don't know the makers of of the other jacket(s). Some suggest that maybe Cooper made more than one jacket that was used in the production. Others suggest the other jacket that Ford wore a lot in the movie was a Leather Concessionaires.

You know, _-I have to tell you how much I personally appreciate your posting this.

It certainly validates what I've thought for quite some time now....that jacket has always looked more bovine to me than lamb....

Thank you...and thank Neil when you talk with him again!

High Regards!
Indydawg

Why has it taken so long for this information to come to light?

Man how times have changed what we thought were facts. Looks to me like the Indy jacket guys are reeling from new info. Kinda hard to grasp it all, when you been believing another story for years. Just glad I am not into jackets much. I mean I like em, just not in the same way as you guys do. Fedora

Kevin Anderson wrote:Why has it taken so long for this information to come to light?

Because _ finally had the opportunity to ask directly about it to someone who is reluctant to have a spotlight shown on him.

Only problem is he never made the actual 'Hero' jacket. Also it was made from lambskin.

I can believe that Peter made the 'hero' jacket and that it was lamb. I can believe that. But from screen stills and other information coming forward, it appears as though there was at least one more maker of the 'hero' jacket.

Someone do a screengrab of the 'hero' putting the pieces of the map together, the part showing the cuff. If that IS lamb, it sure is thick.

PETER wrote:Only problem is he never made the actual 'Hero' jacket. Also it was made from lambskin.

So what we have here, unless I'm unclear, is two gentlemen both claiming to have made the "Hero" jacket. Where is the disconnect here? Is it that our definition of "hero" jacket is askew, or is it that there was more than one hero jacket.

Something is missing here. I have no dog in this hunt and I have nothing to lose or gain, I just want clarification. Neil says he made the hero jacket. Peter says he made the hero jacket. I want to believe that neither man is inventing stories. Where does this leave us? Does this lend credence to the observation of multiple hero jackets?

I was there, Noel Howard and Fred were there plus a costume person who I thought at the time to be debera.
Who else was there?

As with your thread, Peter, we will not tolerate any flaming or baiting from anyone. Again, there will be no more warnings.

Thank you for your kind welcome back. I appreciate your concern. But what is being suggested is ridiculous and does not hold water.

To maboot38's question, the way I understand the sequence of events, Neil Cooper was with SS and crew in France on the first days of shooting and made a jacket per SS's request that recently has been called a hero jacket. At roughly the same time Peter was in London working via Noel to make jackets, one of which may have also been used by HF as a hero jacket. Those that study the screen grabs have consistently stated there was more than one jacket worn by HF throughout the movie. I think that is where the disconnect may be.

Again, to my understanding, in the film world "hero" denotes the main item used in production that would get the most screen time and/or detailed close-ups. In this case, there were many jackets used in ROLA, but the one used the most by HF would be called the 'hero'. Is there any more exact definition of 'hero' within the film industry. For example, if there were three jackets used by HF in making ROLA, but each was used 1/3 of the time, could any of them be considered a 'hero'?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

We do believe it holds water. But I think the issue is in what people are referring to as "hero". Maybe it would be more clear if we described scenes as Peter hasn't been around to know what we consider "hero" or that (I think) there are 2 jackets that are thought of as "hero" jackets.

Peter, it may behoove you to read through and catch up on some threads relating to theories on the hero jackets.

edit: Jeff and I were writing at the same time…I think he may have stated it a little better. Jinx I owe you a Coke.

OK, that makes sense. So Peter is saying that Neil was not at the meeting that Peter was at where they discussed the design of the jacket.

If Peter remembers correctly that Neil was not present at that meeting, and Peter says he personally designed the features that make the jacket what it is, then either a) Neil copied Peter's design later, or b) Peter remembers incorrectly and actually designed his jacket based on changes made by Neil.

Are there any other possibilities? This sure does sound like there are 2 incompatible stories.

As I had surmised before, they worked independently of each other.

It looks like SS was on a side path to insure that the jacket was made according to what they wanted on screen, and that Cooper was chosen to help him in that regard.

Mike wrote: Jinx I owe you a Coke.

Have Michaelson throw in some Jack and we've got a deal!

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Is Neil Cooper referring to the Last Crusade jacket which some have been saying he also made?
Is he referring to a sample jacket he made ?

The jacket that was sent to Tony Nowak was not calfskin. It was shrunken lamb. That jacket manufacture was attributed to Neil Cooper here not long ago.
Calfskin does not present as shrunken lamb.
There was or may be again a 'bovine' hide made available as an alternate to the shrunken lamb, the 747.

Just so maboot, crismans, etc know, I moved our side conversation to the other thread since we agreed it really belonged there..

RCSignals wrote: The jacket that was sent to Tony Nowak was not calfskin. It was shrunken lamb. That jacket manufacture was attributed to Neil Cooper here not long ago.
Calfskin does not present as shrunken lamb.

And Cooper made some of his jackets in a shrunken or striated lamb, so that seems to fit. So this leads to the thought that Cooper produced at least two jackets that saw screen time: one in shrunken lamb and one in calfhide.

or, maybe the calf skin was the Temple of Doom (RaidersII) jacket.

someone would have to point out specifically where a calf skin jacket appears in ROLA

...reminds me of one of the first scenes of the movie, when he is putting the pieces of the map together (symbolic in a sense). Notice the cuff in that scene, the back of the jacket as it briefly enters the shards of light. Doesn't look like a thin piece of leather.

TS are you referring to the Hawaii filmed scenes?

Calf skin isn't necessarily thick.

But then shrunken lamb doesn't necessarily look like thin leather either.

A HD cap of the jacket used in 75% of the movie or so. Look CLOSELY at the texture - especially at the top - see the grainy rivers? Look familiar? We've seen shrunken lamb that looks very much identical to this. Show me a single jacket made from calfskin that looks as close.

I have an old Avirex A-2 made out of lamb. (A) It's not thin leather. I dont' know why some people assume lamb is necessarily thin. It tears easily, yes, but my A-2 is a bit heavy and there's nothing thin about it. (B) My A-2 has seen rain, snow, etc. over 19 + years and it has markings very, very similar to that pic of Indy's jacket, especially the striations at the top.

BTW, Yojimbo Jones, I have a Calico cat named Yojimbo. A Kurosawa fan?

Rick Decard, many older (even some current 'Cockpit) Avirex A-2 jackets were made from shrunken lamb. A lot of Korean made A-2 type jackets were made of shrunken lamb back in the '80s.
Cooper also made them and made a 'Raiders' type jacket in striated shrunken lamb.

It's possible it was made out of shrunken lamb, but I don't recall seeing some of those markings ("grainy rivers" as Yojimbo Jones put it) until the jacket was exposed to the elements and began to age. I seem to recall very smooth leather when I first got the jacket...but that was some time ago.

To me the leather in that pic. looks like its been exposed to the elements, b/c I don't see the grainy rivers and the "bubbles" that lamb gets once its been aged all over, which I would expect to see if the jacket had been made out of shrunken lamb. Whereas real aged/weathered lamb has spots where it gets river-like and bubbled while other areas of the jacket are still smooth.

I have never had lamb that was smooth when new turn into the look of Shrunken lamb.
You don't recall if your jacket was in fact smooth, if it now looks somewhat like what Yojimbo shows in the photo I doubt it did start absolutely smooth. Shrunken lamb however can have varying degrees of the effect, from very little almost smooth to highly exaggerated the amount of the effect is adjusted in the tanning process, and those that start smoother will slightly increase the look of the effect over time when exposed to rain and the elements.

As I said earlier, it was, and still is common for shrunken lamb to be used in the making of 'Vintage look' A-2 jackets.

Rick: Yep. And I figured I couldnt go wrong with a character that spawned both The Man With No Name and Dr Jones.

But re shrunken lamb, the striations are all over the jacket. Sadly for my mental well-being I have mapped their position on every panel using all available footage and photos and will probably share those findings in the near future.

They didn't appear via aging - they're FAR too consistent with the dozens of shrunken lamb hides I've now seen.

Yojimbo Jones wrote:A HD cap of the jacket used in 75% of the movie or so. Look CLOSELY at the texture - especially at the top - see the grainy rivers? Look familiar? We've seen shrunken lamb that looks very much identical to this. Show me a single jacket made from calfskin that looks as close.

I always thought during that scene - cool jacket, but I'd like one made of decent leather. My point with the Indy was always, how can I buy a well made and new version?

Whilst technically we call the leather used on the jacket lambskin in fact the
skin used was old Australian sheep thick and full of stretch marks, tick and damage as seen on screen.
Lots of bomber jacket were made from this at the time usually in distressed form.

Unfortunately this not being available the nearest thing now is veg tanned shrunken lamb which I now
have a sample batch.

Peter, I agree, as I've said before, lamb/sheep leather can be thick and heavy. Here in Australia, I have owned lamb jackets that were, in fact, thick and heavy and looked like the LC jacket that many here think is cow. People often claim they can tell what leather from pictures - that's BS.

I still think that the Raiders film jacket is a badly made, worn out item that needs to be done properly (like it is by Wings, G&B, Todds, etc).

We're lucky... there are so many choices today.

Patto, that's a gentle response from you. Thanks. The jacket story is getting even more complex. I have never actually known Mr Coopers credentials regarding jackets. I always thought he was a merchant.

It's a straightforward, factual, civil response, which is what we ask from everyone.

_, I have no doubt that what you're telling us is factual and has bee corroborated. If Cooper says he made a jacket out of calkskin, then he did.

My only point of confusion is that Tony, from day one, said that the jacket he received was shrunken lamb. He had no reason to lie and I have never known of him to be dishonest. Also, to my eye, the SL jackets he made present the same as many scenes in the movie.

The chronology/tracing that has been attempted seems to suggest that the Imam's house jacket was Cooper's and that this jacket was also the one in Hawaii. If Cooper only made his jacket out of calfskin, then there must be flaw in that chronology somewhere.

As an additional point, you've said that you thought you saw a few Westeds in the movie on Ford's back. Are you still of that opinion?

_ wrote:And read the responses above. Do your screen-grabs capture genetic material? I was unaware of any lamb genome project which would make what’s being insinuated even possible. These are the claims that are ridiculous.

Actually, they do. That's the point. If you have any evidence to support your claims it'd be great to see it.

I can believe a jacket used on the hero was calfskin at some point, but from how the jacket looks in much of the movie it carries way too many characteristics apparent only in what now is called striated shrunken lamb. The fit of some of the hero jackets is wonky as we all know, and I can still see a jacket put together in a rush by an "ok" jacket maker out of whatever merona skins were at hand.
There is no doubt that the "hero" handed to Tony by way of important folks involved w/ indy near the top of the heap was indeed a sheepish skin and that there was at least one other jacket in lamb aside from this calfskin being referred to here.

I have been following this on and of. ( to much to do with completing the grail diary)

to me it looks like an ''oily calfskin'' jacket in my eyes.

I find it very interesting that you posted that pic, Holt. Here's why.

It has been postulated that the truck drag jacket was actually the Bantu Wind jacket and not a Wilsons as previously thought. I've always found it interesting that Sgt. Hack refers to the jacket with the side straps sewn into the pocket (such as on the Blue Label) as Cooper's pattern and this pattern is what we see on the Bantu Wind jacket.

So here's my theory (feel free to destroy it ). Many people (including myself) have thought that the "sitting on the dock" pic is of the PoS jacket. But we have never been told that, have we? Maybe we have never seen the PoS jacket. Maybe the jacket in the "sitting on the dock" jacket (and possibly the Bantu Wind dock scenes) is Neil Cooper's first jacket made of the calfskin he's now told us about. The problems with the location of the side straps are noted and the pattern is changed to the more familiar configuration that we all know. Later, the first jacket is again used for the truck gag as you wouldn't be able to make out that many details and any differences in the jackets' configurations wouldn't be noticed.

Thoughts?

I find it funny that Holt chose to post a pic of Terry clearly flipping us off w/ a full middle finger salute!





Editted for typing with a brain working on 36 hours of awake time once again...

_ wrote:So... Does this constitute "proof" that I am acquainted with the man who I am quoting? Just curious...

Mere photoshop tomfoolery.
I want DNA samples!

Cris,

In theory, the truck drag jacket would have had to have been made of more durable material. This seemingly rules out LC, because he has consistently stated that his were lamb.

The truck sequence was a "second unit" operating apart from the main film set, so it was obviously not the hero jacket. They would not have destroyed it anyway.

Wilson's seems like a likely candidate (10 jackets laying around with nothing to do) or all stressed up with not place to go.

crismans wrote:I find it very interesting that you posted that pic, Holt. Here's why.

It has been postulated that the truck drag jacket was actually the Bantu Wind jacket and not a Wilsons as previously thought. I've always found it interesting that Sgt. Hack refers to the jacket with the side straps sewn into the pocket (such as on the Blue Label) as Cooper's pattern and this pattern is what we see on the Bantu Wind jacket.

So here's my theory (feel free to destroy it ). Many people (including myself) have thought that the "sitting on the dock" pic is of the PoS jacket. But we have never been told that, have we? Maybe we have never seen the PoS jacket. Maybe the jacket in the "sitting on the dock" jacket (and possibly the Bantu Wind dock scenes) is Neil Cooper's first jacket made of the calfskin he's now told us about. The problems with the location of the side straps are noted and the pattern is changed to the more familiar configuration that we all know. Later, the first jacket is again used for the truck gag as you wouldn't be able to make out that many details and any differences in the jackets' configurations wouldn't be noticed.

Thoughts?

That would seem plausible. The photos Holt has posted are interesting because it is not the main Hero jacket, and Holt even knows this, has talked about it in other posts. It does most resemble the Bantu Wind scene jacket, and obviously is the truck drag jacket.
This is confusing as previously this jacket was not identified as the jacket Neil Cooper made, it was inferred to be the jacket Neil Cooper was tasked to make a replacement for.
The Neil Cooper jacket was said to be the jacket we see in the Hawaii scenes, which is the same jacket that was delivered to Tony Nowak as the Hero jacket. That jacket was identified by Tony Nowak as positively being bade of shrunken lamb skin, a specially processed lamb hide. A hide he was very familiar with and which was very popular in the 1980s. (used on 'vintage' A-2 type jackets by many makers, Avirex and Cooper among them) there is a thread here of Indiana G visiting Tony Nowak, and meeting the French tanner who made these hides in very large quantity in the '80s. It was said he supplied very large quantities to Korean manufacturers. The Korean clothing makers produced a lot of the 'vintage look' A-2s back in the '80s. Tony Nowak painstakingly duplicated the jacket, even counting the teeth in the zipper, and working wit tanneries to produce the same skin in the same colours. He could have made things much easier, less stressful, less time consuming on himself by making the jacket out of CS leather and saying 'it's the same'

So I am not saying Neil Cooper could not have made a jacket in calfskin, but that ther is something missing from that story. It does not match the story previously told, it does npt match the jackets we see on screen, and it does not match the reality of the 'Hero' jacket delivered to Tony Nowak to copy.

I can hear that distinctive Big laugh now.

Wilson's seems like a likely candidate.

The prevailing thought for years was that the truck gag jacket was a Wilsons. However, there was a thead here not long ago (I'm not sure if it's still here or if it got deleted for other reasons) where the theory was put forth that the truck gag might have been the BW "dock still" jacket. There were some compelling thoughts behind the theory.

That's interesting, but we know so little about that jacket and have maybe one photo? Some think it was AD who made the jacket, yes? We do know that the Wilson's were made of cow, right? Since they were unacceptable and therefore expendable, maybe they could have been used as stunt jackets? More leaps I suppose.

_ wrote:So... Does this constitute "proof" that I am acquainted with the man who I am quoting? Just curious...

No, that's cool. Thank you!

Ok, so, unless I missed it, how many jackets did he make? Just the one?