Club Obi Wan

Lately, I've been doing alot of research on the effectiveness of Pecard, as I wanted to use only the best for my leather jackets. This led me down a rather deep rabbit hole, as I began to question whether Pecards was doing more harm than good to our beloved jackets (please refer to a previous thread I had made, http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=42935 ), when I learned that a main ingredient in Pecards was petroleum.

From there, I began to look for an alternative, and then found Obenaufs. However, if there was an abundance of naysayers for Pecards, Obenaufs had virtually no criticisms at all, which in and of itself was suspicious.

I began to ponder about the effectiveness of leather dressings alone. Not Pecards, not Obeanufs, not Kiwi, just leather dressings in general. The results really have started to get me worried, as I began to find websites that ended with .gov which discouraged the use of leather dressings in any leather materials:

Leather dressings were at one time thought to be useful in extending the life of leather bindings. Experience has shown, however, that its benefit is primarily cosmetic and that the use of leather dressing by someone without professional expertise, does more harm than good.

-The Library of Congress, Preservation http://www.loc.gov/preserv/care/leather.html

The dressings are usually applied in an attempt to slow deterioration, improve the appearance of the leather, and perhaps restore some of its former strength and flexibility. Although the actual outcome usually does not meet these goals, the applicator often has the feeling that he or she is doing something to preserve the historic material...

...The effect of dressings on leather permanence has been studied, and almost invariably the researchers conclude that the dressing has no preservative effect...

...The British Leather Manufacturers Research Association (BLMRA) included degreased leather in their long-term study and found that the absence of grease did not make the leather more prone to decay...

...Conservators are learning how complex leather is. Its preservation depends upon a clear understanding of a great number of factors. The need for relubrication of an object, or for increasing its fat content, can only be established by making numerous calculations involving the animal origin of the leather, its process of manufacture, present chemical and physical condition, and future use. The scientific research of Stambolov and colleagues of the Central Research Laboratory for Art and Science in Amsterdam (1984) has stressed the need for careful monitoring of a leather’s existing fat content to establish the need for dressing. “Dressings should not be applied haphazardly, but the solution’s fat contents should be calculated and matched to the gram weight (by percentage) of the leather,”...

...In practice, the dressing of leather is also a largely irreversible procedure because of the deep penetration of the foreign ingredients and the movement of soluble components within the leather. The dressing can also impede future conservation treatments... One of the major problems with commercial dressings is that people apply them for their immediate results without awareness of their
long-term effects:

Oils and Fats can:
-become increasingly acidic
-form unstable surface spews
-oxidize and stiffen
-discolor and stain
-wick into adjoining materials
-leave a sticky surface
-encourage biological deterioration

Wax additives can:
-block surface porosity
-discolor and collect dust
-change the surface appearance
-impede further treatment
-encourage biological deterioration

-U.S. National Park Service, 'Conserve O Gram' http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/publi ... /09-01.pdf

The practice of applying oils, greases, waxes and other substances to leather hooks in an effort to preserve them appears to be derived from traditional practices rather than 20th century research. None of the serious investigations of leather dressing has shown a preservative effect. In fact, there is a great deal of evidence, albeit unsystematic and anecdotal, for specific destructive effects that appear later on, like bloom and mold--effects that have not been observed systematically because of the time lag, lack of previous treatment records, and the large numbers of leathers and dressings involved...

...It is true that tanneries add fats to leather as part of the manufacturing process, and that some conservators use dressings on leather artifacts, but these people have controlled conditions, analytical facilities, special training, and good documentation of previous work...

...The question then arises, "Why is dressing such a common practice, even among people whose judgement is widely respected?" There is no good answer to that. Established habits and practices are hard to change, and long-term effects are easy even for conservators to overlook or disbelieve, especially if the immediate effect of a treatment is personally gratifying, as the effect of leather dressing is. Soluble nylon, for example, was used in conservation for many years after its dreadful characteristics were documented from every angle in the professional literature...

...We should also not justify the use of dressing by its long history of use. Traditional practices varied all over the map, and were even less effective at preserving things than folk medicine was at preserving people. Even the British Museum Leather Dressing, which is perhaps the best known, has appeared in several variations; and in the British Museum's own long-term study of durability of bookbinding leather, there seemed to be no difference in durability between the degreased leathers and those that had been dressed.

-Abbey Newsletter, Feb 1990 http://cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/a ... 4-121.html

I know I'm coming off as the crazy guy standing on the street corner yelling "The end is nigh," especially after my last thread on Pecards, but I'm really getting worried about this. If expert leather conservators and paid research professionals are all warning against using dressings (going as far back as the 60's), then shouldn't we consider this?

What I basically got from this is that unless you're an expert, you probably shouldn't be messing with the stuff. And I'm not trying to point any fingers or make anyone feel bad here, but the common arguments often used in favor of leather dressings seem to have been addressed by the sites listed above. I'm not trying to be patronizing, as frankly, I consider myself just starting to learn about this, but the following is what I believe the reasoning to some of the more common arguments would be:

Statement: I've used it for ages, it works and it makes the leather softer!
Response: It's a psychological effect. You feel better thinking you're doing good to the jacket. It makes the jacket softer, but in the long run, it's actually deteriorating your leather at a faster rate than an undressed leather item.

Statement: X leather dressing company has been around since...
Response: "Established habits and practices are hard to change, and long-term effects are easy even for conservators to overlook or disbelieve," not to forget that research has been conducted since the early part of the 20th century already discouraging the use of leather dressing.

Statement: Leather dressings only use what was already in the leather to begin with. It replenishes it!
Response: Electricity was in a battery to begin with. Recharging a battery just replenishes it. However, we know that unless it is under the exact, right conditions, even recharging a battery can be hazardous.

Statement: X person who made X leather goods for the movie endorses it, so it can't be bad.
Response: Which would you rather trust? The review of a tape recorder from a famous singer who claims the tape recorder he uses best captures songs, or reviews from a panel of experts who spend all day reviewing and analyzing the tape recorder, audio transmissions, frequencies, etc?

Question: Leather dressings are bad?
Response: Not under the correct circumstances. It just needs to be the right conditions, which usually require exacting and professional measurements and calculations, not just winging it.

Thanks for this info. It gives me something to think about. From personal experence( I own 9 different leather jackets) I know some dressings just start to smell funny after awile. It got to the point that I don't use it anymore, and haven't in years. some of the jackets I have are very stiff, like stand on their own stiff. these are the ones I used the dressings on. I ride motorcycles and was always told the a soft jacket will protect you better than a hard one. Due to a non observant motorist I proved that statement. Walked away with only a slight limp. That jacket was one with no dressing, did I say it was over 10 years old? Now the only question I have for you kind Sir. is, What about my whips, same thing, or different subject all together?

Peace out,

John

Thank you sir! Though I don't claim to be an expert on the subject by any means, just actively pursuing any secondary research I can find. Considering that you've been collecting leather jackets for over 10 years, you're probably more of an expert on leather jackets than I (since I only got hooked in 2007)! But to answer your question, I would assume that the same would most likely apply to whips as well, since the sources I cited covered a pretty broad range of leather items.

The observation you made about your leather jackets is very interesting, although I am curious what sort of leather dressings you had used? I ask because despite the points noted earlier, I always thought one of the selling points of leather dressings was that they 'softened' jackets (at least in the short-run) by over lubricating them? Maybe what you mentioned, about the jackets getting stiff enough to stand unsupported, would be a long-term effect of the leather dressing on the jackets?

Almost like how certain dieting or extreme-exercise measures may provide immediate relief and psychological comfort in the short-run, but in the long-run ends up causing more harm than good.

The inherent properties of leather should be considered, that animal skins are organic material and that moisterization of the hide is important in the long term preservation of hide, due to the oxidation issue. If leather is allowed to dry out, has been washed, etc., the fibers in the leather break down and lose their tensile strength, making the leather prone to cracking, breaking, splitting, etc., especially at stress points.

From what I've observed from an example I saw recently, leather can mold if it is kept is a very humid environment with no ventilation. Because of its organic properties, it should be allowed to breath. This is why jacket co.'s recommend that the jacket not be covered with plastic, etc.

If you purchase a jacket, how long should you expect it to last? If it lasts only 10 years, have we received our monies worth? Typically, for how many years do we keep these jackets before they are sold, traded or given away?

Tundra, it's good to hear from both sides of the argument. I'll play the devil's advocate though, and ask you this:

Tundrarider wrote: It seems to me that we should consider that the human race has been using and working with leather for centuries; as a result, the knowledge and experiences passed down from leather worker to their apprentices would be extensive.

My thoughts go immediately to David Morgan who has spent a lifetime working with leather. David has no reason to promote the use of a leather dressing if he had found that it was ineffective. He doesn't sell his own brand of Leather Dressing, but instead, promotes Pecards.

In the following quote from his website, he discusses the issues that arise with the leather care products which are based upon animal fats. Though he is opposed to the use of those products, he is a strong advocate of the petroleum based Pecards.

If it works for an experienced craftsman like David Morgan who has literally spent a lifetime creating and caring for leather products, well, that's good enough for me. ...

...

Pecard Leather Dressing
Pecard Leather Dressing is the dressing used by the knowledgeable collectors of leather items and museum conservators. We offer Pecard Leather Dressing in five convenient sizes: 6 oz. tub, 16 oz. tub, 32 oz. tub and case lots of 6-32 oz. tubs.

To begin with, the point that you seemed to stress about Pecard's being used by museum conservators, you made it in bold so I would assume it's an important point you wanted to point out? To address that, I really have to ask which museums you are referring to? The Library of Congress doesn't use it, the Smithsonian (which in the past, supporters of Pecards argued that they used it) stopped using it, and in fact, of the three sources I listed in the original post, the last one was from a website dedicated to conservation.

You also mentioned that governmental websites are not particularly impressive. While I'm not going to go there, the fact of the matter is that the research that they quoted were made by professionals not necessarily in the government, and so the effectiveness of government agencies shouldn't even be brought into the equation.

Your final point was about knowledge of leather being passed down for centuries. However, I'm sure you can also think of quite a few useless/harmful ancient remedies that had been passed down from generation to generation as well. Old wives tales if you will. And like I said in the first post, tradition can be psychologically comforting, and may even provide short-term immediate relief, but doesn't always work.

Finally, you mentioned David Morgan, and I don't mean to be rude or flippant, but I think I already addressed that in my first post, with the 'actor and tape recorder' analogy.

And Texan Scott,

Texan Scott wrote:The inherent properties of leather should be considered, that animal skins are organic material and that moisterization of the hide is important in the long term preservation of hide, due to the oxidation issue. If leather is allowed to dry out, has been washed, etc., the fibers in the leather break down and lose their tensile strength, making the leather prone to cracking, breaking, splitting, etc., especially at stress points.

Nobody is arguing that moisturizing, if done correctly, is bad for the jackets. In fact, all places seem to say that it is a good thing. However, what is important is not if, but how. The research I've found seems to stress that it has to be applied in laboratory conditions (with the right measurements, perfect calculations, knowledge of what hide, density, age, preparation/tanning methods, etc). Otherwise, if done incorrectly, this is where the damage occurs. And something tells me that any one of us applying a dose of Pecards/Obenaufs/Kiwi on a regular basis, when we think it's dry, with the only deciding calculations being lambskin=lotion, cow/goat/horse=conditioner, that this isn't the precise science that is being advocated.

Texan Scott wrote:From what I've observed from an example I saw recently, leather can mold if it is kept is a very humid environment with no ventilation. Because of its organic properties, it should be allowed to breath. This is why jacket co.'s recommend that the jacket not be covered with plastic, etc.

Again, nobody is arguing with that. What is being argued is that dressings encourage the process. And quite a few people have noted (see my previous thread) an occurence of leather "bloom" or "spew" as a direct result of dressing the leather. Now if you're going to argue "they don't know how to apply it properly," my question is: "well, do you?" (taking my previous paragraph to mind)

Texan Scott wrote:If you purchase a jacket, how long should you expect it to last? If it lasts only 10 years, have we received our monies worth? Typically, for how many years do we keep these jackets before they are sold, traded or given away?

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, as (and correct me if I'm wrong) John Vaughan said that his 10 year old jacket was still in great shape and even saved his hide. Though I'm not sure what you're getting at, I will say that some people do hold on to their jackets longer than 10 years, such as John, and I myself have a 9-10 year old leather jacket that is in great shape, the only thing is that it got ridiculously stiff after I got it dry-cleaned about 6 years ago.

Personally, I keep my clothes in good enough shape that I still have shirts that I bought in 2001, and my own leather wallet, which is used daily and still in near-perfect condition, was given to me back in 1999 and never conditioned. I don't expect anything from my possessions, but if treated right, I believe that they'll be around for quite some time.

I hope you don't take this as an attack, I know I'm coming off defensive, but I am really trying to explore all sides of this issue, and would love for someone to prove me wrong. Really respect both of you guys very much, however, it just seems that like I said, the more I find, the less the claims in support for leather dressing seem to be as logical as the ones against, and the more worried I become about the dressing that we've put in our treasured jackets.

I'm also new to the whole leather thing, but here is one thing I noticed about your top post. Your examples all refer to leather being kept indoors: book bindings, museum pieces, etc. Our leather jackets are being worn outside, where they receive the additional stresses of water, UV, and (I don't know that this has any specific effect) air pollution.

Cleans, conditions, preserves and weatherproofs all smooth oil-tanned leathers. Allows the leather to breathe.

This is a bit from Pecards website. I have added the emphasis on weatherproof. Is that maybe something to consider if we want to keep our leather longer and using it versus letting in sit in a collection?

Again, I'm new here, I'm not trying to be defensive, and I'm interested in the information you've been digging up, so I'd like your opinion on this.

James

I'll speak from my own experience. I purchased an older, none-too-special American Eagle Outfitters distressed cowhide leather jacket on ebay for cheap that seemed to be styled after a 50's half-belt design, but without the half-belt. When I got the jacket, it was dry as a bone, and the color seemed dull and washed out. It was not something I wanted to wear. I put two coats of brown Pecards on the jacket, and it became something I look forward to wearing. It really brought the jacket to life.

I don't doubt that these leather conditioners may actually be bad for our jackets in the long run. But if it makes a jacket better in the short term, or brings something back from the dead, then I'm all for it.

I will think twice though, if I get a brand new jacket and want to break it in with leather conditioner. That seems like it might be a mistake.

Castor Dioscuri wrote:I hope you don't take this as an attack, I know I'm coming off defensive...

This is quite blatantly an attack on my online personna, and I'm highly offended by these implications! I think its HIGH time for a good ol' phist phight! and if I could half-way spell I'd be dangerous!

Get 'em Tundy!


....it's just a (cuss the air blue) kinda jacket!

All 'proof' is subjective, and dependent on where an individual is literally standing at any given time. A great many museums, especially the BIG ones, don't believe in conserving items as a cost point. They take a stand of procedure of allowing items to 'age naturally'. Only when an important item reaches a point of disintegration does the museum take steps to attempt to stabilize. It's a sad truth, but one that is happening more and more in the current financial situation the world finds itself in at this time.

On more than one occasion I know my eldest daughter has volunteered to help clean up and stabilize displays in local museums over the years, only to be either ignored or thanked, but told 'no, we prefer natural aging methods'. In other words, if it falls apart, so be it! They'll just put in a different display and let IT fall apart over time!

One museum calls it 'patina' while another will call it 'rust/oxidation'. That debate rages in every aspect of the collecting world, and is one that will NEVER be decided or agreed to one way or the other, and that debate being 'preserve, or leave it to the ages?' OH the arguments I've followed on watch collecting forums would make your head spin!!!

Anyway, back to topic, what works in England and is shown as 'proof' by the British Museum does not necessarily 'play' in a dryer climate. In all the years of reading and sitting back watching the world, I find it's usually the 'experts' who are the ones who are telling 'the common man' to leave things alone and leave it to 'an expert' to determine what is good or bad. This is true in most all professions.

As a counterpoint, I have been informed that the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum in Oklahoma City uses Pecards on all their leather they have displayed, and they have literally TONS of leather items to display and care for. The same news has been heard from small museums in Arizona as well. Dry leather will crack and eventually fall apart due to the evaporation of essential oils. Nothing phychological about it. It's just a fact. This seems to fly in the face of the opinion of their fellow exhibitors and museum curators!

Use what you think will work best on your leather gear dependent on where you live, and where you use it.

Personally, I'd suggest you use and enjoy your leather gear in what ever level you want. You're not going to get out of this life alive, so you may as well enjoy your gear and stop worrying how long it's going to survive. 25 years or 250 years, on a personal level it really makes no difference when it comes right down to it.

If your jacket is dry and cracked, treat. If not, don't treat. It seems pretty simple to me, but then I don't have a profession hanging on the outcome or belief of doing it one way or the other like museum curators do.

Regards! Michaelson

Guess I should have checked the notify me thing. I'm not so sure it's the dressings as much as it is the leather itself that makes them so stiff. I ride in all types of weather. From nice and sunny to 40 degrees and starting to snow. Wont be doing the snowing thing again, that was just stupid! anyway, I was just making an observation on the jackets that I have used dressing on and the ones I haven't. It could be the older jackets were coated with poor dressings, I really don't recall what kind I used, It was 20 or so years ago when I bought the first one, I'm thinking it was mink oil, but don't quote me.It could be the fact that older jackets were just thicker. It does seem that leather jackets are a lot softer these days. I stopped using dressings only within the last 15 years or so. the jacket I was wearing when I did the backslide was one that I didn't use any dressing on and haven't used any from that time on. None of my jackets are cracking, or splitting. The only thing I have noticed is a smell, not a bad one just a fake leather smell. Kinda like pleather for lack of a better word, and that could be just due to age.. I've tried everything to soften the really stiff one but nothing works, even threw it in an old dryer with a pair of new workboots. The Pecards is on its way so who knows, maybe it will soften the armor, we'll see in time.

Peace

John

Hey guys,

I live in England (don't need to elaborate on the weather here), I have been using Pecards for a few years now and although I at first I saw a great improvement in the texture and weather proofing effect, I have found the long term use of this product has caused a waxy deposit to build up in areas such as the stitching and creases etc of my leather jackets and boots etc and is extremely difficult to remove. Im of the opinion now that if it doesn't need treating, leave it alone.

Bullitt.

I use Pecard on my beef jerky when I run out o' water!

No, I've used it on my G&B Exp. lamb and it has really brought life into the jacket, has a rich shine and sure has made it supple to the touch. When these jackets are made right, they sure are functional works of art.

Major update on that old cowhide stand by it's self jacket of mine. That Pecards is some darn fine dressing! that old thing is wearable again. It softened right up. I gave it a double dose and even tho' it's to small for me now, my daughter now has a soft jacket. I don't think I'll use it on my beef jerky and all. I'm still up in the air as far as how long the softness will stay. It does seem to work, I'll give it some time before I get all dressing happy. So as of now I'm not worrying to much, time will tell.

John

bullit wrote: I have found the long term use of this product has caused a waxy deposit to build up in areas such as the stitching and creases etc of my leather jackets and boots etc and is extremely difficult to remove. Bullitt.

From what I've read here, you can heat up the jacket or boots with a hair dryer to soften the waxy build up and then wipe it away with a clean cloth.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Cool, I'll give it try, Thanks Indiana Jeff.

Bullitt.

Yep, Jeff beat me to that suggestion.

All that is is excess dressing migrating out of the leather. It only takes a hairdryer to liquify the excess, and you wipe it off with a clean dry cotton cloth (like an old teeshirt) and you're good to go.

Regards! Michaelson

While I have sworn off using Pecards on my leather jackets, I still apply them on my bullwhips. However, I thought this was some interesting food for thought:

http://www.examiner.com/article/avoid-p ... istillates

You know, over 10 years later and I stand by what I found. My oldest jackets are now closer to 13 years old, and I can't tell the difference between the ones that I treated with Pecards and the ones I didn't.

Well, that's not completely true...

I feel that my treated jackets feel tackier to the touch, whereas the untreated jacket (like my CS jackets which are now just over a decade) still feel identical to the day I got them.

(A caveat though: my treated jackets are Westeds from the mid '00s. So it is also possible that Wested just had a shoddy run of leather then, and/or maybe I just graduated to better quality hides with my post-Wested collection)

If this helps anyone else, I'd strongly recommend going commando and skip the lotions. It's not that they don't have their uses; I just feel their usefulness has been blown out of proportion.

In summary, I just feel that time is the true test of things, and it has been a decade. Don't condition your leathers unless you know that they are going to be repeatedly exposed to harsh elements, such as water and salt. But for a casual wear jacket? Unless you live in London or Seattle, I'd say save the conditioner for your shoes.

I’m going to have to say folks are going to have different experiences in different locations and with different hides.

I live in south central Tennessee, and have a 20 year old Expedition lambskin in my collection that doesn’t get worn much. It’s in a climate controlled area. If it’s not treated with a leather treatment at least once a year, it gets stiff as a board. Untreated stiff leather cracks.

Other than my roo hide jacket, which is essentially bulletproof, I experience this with most thin hides, and even an occasional goatskin jacket. I don’t with the heavier hides like cow or horse hide.

I'm guessing it could be related to how the leather was tanned....vegetable vs chrome tanning.

I believe it’s always going to be a personal experience, location, and a plethora of individual scenarios that will dictate what a jacket needs and doesn’t need regarding leather dressing.

I've also moved to using products that are more lotion than jell, as they soak in better and don't leave that tacky feeling.

I guess my point is 'never say never'.

Just another opinion and personal experience.

Regards! Michaelson

From the Bill Kelso website"

"Generally we do not recommend applying any cream or other similar products on your jackets for a long time. Tanneries have produced these leathers in such a way that they do not need anything for at least 15-20 years. However, if necessary, suitable leather conditioner should be applied."

This site recommends every six months, or depending on location, up to 3-4 times a year.

Everyone has an opinion, and an angle. This company wants to sell you conditioner, and the other another jacket, for as soon as your current jacket wears out from lack of care, the sooner they can sell you a new one.

https://leathermilk.com/how-often-condition-leather-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It all falls to what you're most comfortable doing, and what works best for you.

Regard! M

I personally had no end of trouble using leather conditioners on my Westeds, especially the goat skin. Where upon it (pecards) became rubbery and solidly stuck in the seams and stitching. I live in the UK which is generally cooler which had a hand in this, so had to use a hair dryer to get the stuff out. I also at the time spoke to a conservator (Bradford uni, England) who told me that it doesn't help leather in the long run. In my experience less is more. Use the conditioner when the leather is dry only. And as has already been stated it takes a long time for it to warrant the use.

On a separate note, Pecards caused the Brass hardware on my leather bag to prematurely oxidize. It now has to be regularly removed which isn't easy.

Bullit

bullit wrote: And as has already been stated it takes a long time for it to warrant the use.

Bullit

'As has been already stated'? I guess you missed all my posts.

All I'M saying is everyone is going to experience different things, and I try and practice not stating 'absolutes', as I've found it's rarely the case.

I have used Pecard's for literally decades and never experienced what you've experienced, either in build up or in tarnishing of hardware, so once again this looks to be something you're experiencing in your part of the world. It's not what I experience in mine. Both experiences are absolutely true and correct as it's what WE experienced.

I HAVE said on many occasions I don't use the standard Pecards like I used to, but prefer a lotion now as it soaks completely into the leather and leaves no residue.

I have also spoken to museum conservators over the years, and they give mixed opinions...one says exactly what you say above, where another told me if you DON'T regularly treat (specifically no less than once a year), you risk irreversible damage to leather losing it's natural oils to oxidation and age.

Anyway, I'll leave the topic now, as apparently I'm beating a dead horse, but I still recommend the readers to just use common sense and judge what your own personal gear requires where YOU live, and take what WE say as a guideline only.

The last thing we want is someone to come back here with a dried out and cracked jacket complaining 'I read on Indygear I wasn't supposed to treat leather and look what happened...', or someone with one dripping with non- absorbed leather treatment saying 'I read on Indygear I was supposed to treat my jacket every full moon and now I can't get the stuff off.....'

...and I'll once again post the caveat, 'my opinion and experience only'.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:

bullit wrote: And as has already been stated it takes a long time for it to warrant the use.

Bullit

'As has been already stated'? I guess you missed all my posts.

All I'M saying is everyone is going to experience different things, and I try and practice not stating 'absolutes', as I've found it's rarely the case.

I have used Pecard's for literally decades and never experienced what you've experienced, either in build up or in tarnishing of hardware, so once again this looks to be something you're experiencing in your part of the world. It's not what I experience in mine. Both experiences are absolutely true and correct as it's what WE experienced.

I HAVE said on many occasions I don't use the standard Pecards like I used to, but prefer a lotion now as it soaks completely into the leather and leaves no residue.

I have also spoken to museum conservators over the years, and they give mixed opinions...one says exactly what you say above, where another told me if you DON'T regularly treat (specifically no less than once a year), you risk irreversible damage to leather losing it's natural oils to oxidation and age.

Anyway, I'll leave the topic now, as apparently I'm beating a dead horse, but I still recommend the readers to just use common sense and judge what your own personal gear requires where YOU live, and take what WE say as a guideline only.

The last thing we want is someone to come back here with a dried out and cracked jacket complaining 'I read on Indygear I wasn't supposed to treat leather and look what happened...', or someone with one dripping with non- absorbed leather treatment saying 'I read on Indygear I was supposed to treat my jacket every full moon and now I can't get the stuff off.....'

...and I'll once again post the caveat, 'my opinion and experience only'.

Regards! Michaelson

To be fair, I think bullitt was referring to what I wrote when he said that, as opposed to taking your words out of context. And I do wonder if the need for more vigilant care in more humid climates is due not to the leather drying out, but the other way around instead- it gets too moist, and hence mold and mildew start rotting the leather.

In my experience, my old house was in a tropical climate, and my leather jacket ended up covered in mold and became stiff as a board. I never applied dressing or lotion to it, but I'd assume- and yes this is pure conjecture- that dressing would have protected the jacket. HOWEVER, this would have been on account of adding a waterproof layer to it instead of further moisturizing it, which obviously would have just contributed to its decline.

But since that place was in a tropical location with consistently high humidity, it definitely was an outlier. The place I live now has four seasons, and I find no problem with not conditioning my leather jackets year round. The bulk of my collection are now over a decade old with no ill effects and no conditioning (all first hand jackets), so I can assure folks that it truly works. A caveat though, I do avoid heavy rain in them, but with sensible wear, I don't see what the problem would be. With that said, none of what I said applies to humid environs, and I personally would not even bother getting one if I lived in one, based on personal experience.

I understand this topic is a controversial one, but I think it's important that folks are given options instead of only hearing one side of the argument. Ultimately, we can all agree that you should make the best decision for yourself by taking all your own factors into account.

Michaelson wrote:
I HAVE said on many occasions I don't use the standard Pecards like I used to, but prefer a lotion now as it soaks completely into the leather and leaves no residue.

Could you please tell me which one? There are at least 2 kinds, one of which is motorcycle leather lotion. Not sure which one to check out.

Thanks

https://www.legendaryusa.com/Pecards-Le ... gJZWvD_BwE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, it's a jell, but THEY call it a 'cream'. I questioned them when it first came out, and their explanation was they already had the labels printed for the jars, so they just 'went with it'.

MUCH easier to apply, soaks in faster, and buffs clean. No tacky feel like the standard dressing as there's less beeswax.

This dressing available from USWings has totally blown me away as well. It even soaks into kangaroo hide!!!! Pecards won't even do that!

https://www.uswings.com/product-categor ... -products/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards! M

Thanks

I use Pecards on my leather boots instead of any shoe cream or polish. Have many pairs and never had any issues. Sometimes use mink oil as well. Just depends on what I grab at the time.

Use Pecards on my new leather jackets only if I want to make them darker which it does well. Other than that, only use if the jackets seem to be getting dried out some. To be honest, very few of my leather jackets from various makers have ever needed conditioning even after years of ownership.

Only jacket I ever washed that survived (do not recommend washing) is my Expedition in goat. When it was done, thought it was a goner like the other couple ones but after a few coats of Pecards, it is beautiful with a grain I would never have obtained in a lifetime of wear. My favorite Indy jacket!

As said by others, use what works best for you. I am sure there are other products out there that will do an excellent job.

From the Bill Kelso website"

"Generally we do not recommend applying any cream or other similar products on your jackets for a long time. Tanneries have produced these leathers in such a way that they do not need anything for at least 15-20 years. However, if necessary, suitable leather conditioner should be applied."

The above refers to our horsehide.

You are strongly discouraged from using any such products on the striated lambskin.

Oh boy, I get to opine on this 10 years after the fact. I think Pecard's is fine for the lifetime of a human. If you want to preserve your jacket for longer than 100 years, then perhaps the oils and waxes, etc. will start to degrade, discolor etc., but probably nothing a fresh coat of the stuff would not ameliorate at least to some degree.