Club Obi Wan

The style of jacket doesn't matter too much I think, this is more about materials, linings etc.

So right now I have a goatskin leather jacket from USWings. Great jacket, after less than a year and a half it has worn to feel fantastic and soft and drapes wonderfully. But I think I would like an alternative jacket that is much warmer because I've been out on a cool night and froze my butt off in my goatskin.

The question is, do I go with a different leather type? Cowhide? Different liner (vs nylon now) like flannel? Or something thicker like an actual puffy sherpa kinda thing..

I think I saw somewhere here that the Expedition can be ordered with Thinsulate, which should make it almost as warm as a ski jacket.

LJ

Yes....the thinsulate lining is, I think, a possiblity...

My cowhide Expo kept me warm on the coldest of days this winter....cowhide is a good choice for warmth.

Horsehide is a little bit warmer.

I had a deerhide Expo once-I don't even think you can get them anymore-not THAT was a great jacket....it was warm in the winter, and breathed well so it could be worn, comfortably, up to 80 degrees outside...

Those are some options....

Of course, you could always layer a sweater underneath....

I think the suggestion for layering is probably the best as most leathers just aren't that warm when you get down to it. If the style of jacket doesn't matter, you could try different liners. I know Aero does different liners in wool or alpaca if you're wanting a dedicated cold weather jacket.

Leather isn't particularly warm and the difference between horse, cow and goat is negligable. Although leathers can be thick and heavy, they do not provide much insulation. This can only be done by layering and by having a warm lining. Obviously there are many cold weather lining options. Aero leather has a good selection.

I wear an overcoat over my jacket when winter sets in.

blueoakleyz wrote:The style of jacket doesn't matter too much I think, this is more about materials, linings etc.

So right now I have a goatskin leather jacket from USWings. Great jacket, after less than a year and a half it has worn to feel fantastic and soft and drapes wonderfully. But I think I would like an alternative jacket that is much warmer because I've been out on a cool night and froze my butt off in my goatskin.

The question is, do I go with a different leather type? Cowhide? Different liner (vs nylon now) like flannel? Or something thicker like an actual puffy sherpa kinda thing..

Can I see pics of this jacket? I am absolutely torn about my next jacket. I was convinced to get a TN, and then... . Now I'm torn between a wings and a G&B. I keep hearing that the wings jackets are WAY long, so I don't know. I'm gonna get measurements from both companies and decide based on that. Its DEF gonna be goat though. Soooo anyways...can I see a pic, and ask what the measurement is from the collar to the bottom of the back panel? Pretty please.


Travis

G&B will make a jacket with thinsulate. Todd will too. With open cuffs and torso, the jacket is a fancy windbreaker. Add layers or filler material in the lining for warmth.

Well, just to remind everyone, as CM states above, leather was NEVER meant to keep anyone warm. It's a wind breaker, and allows anything underneath that has been layered to be the layer that holds the warm air against the body.

I have found that any good heavy cowhide to be perfect against the cold when layered over a sweater. I drove all winter in snow and sub freezing temps this winter in the old Plymouth WITH THE WINDOW ROLLED DOWN (no turn signals, so I have to give hand signals), and my cowhide Wings kept me nice and cozy layered over a sweater and shirt. I never got cold.

If you're looking for a do-all/be-all jacket, you're looking for a speciality leather jacket.....but if you just want to use what you have, layer. It works.

Regards! Michaelson

Layering is the best way to go, I think. For another option, I know that Magnoli will install a removable lining which would make for a more versatile jacket.

I have to agree with Michaelson totally here.

I have a Magnoli cowhide and also US Wings cowhide Indy that has proven excellent for layering. The Magnoli is more of a "perfect fit" item, so I wear that when it's just a bit too cool for goatskin. The US Wings is cut roomy so I'm not restricted by the sweater, and the hide is heavy enough cut the wind and delay a need for me to put the sweater on in the first place. (I could have ordered the Magnoli larger, but I chose not to). I love them both for colder weather, but I would not wear either when is gets crazy cold!

Magnoli does have a flannel lining available, but even cotton would be warmer than nylon or the like. That stuff conducts cold. However, if you plan to layer, a slippery lining will make life easier.

Of course, you could get an B-3 jacket, which would be for colder weather only.

Hides, as a general rule, make sense in that heavier by weight equals warmer, lighter equals cooler. BUT, since not all hide is cut the same thickness, it's best to ask those in the know once you zero in on a manufacturer of choice.

I've successfully layered under lambskin, goatskin, deerskin, and heavy cowhide over the years....though I now prefer cowhide due to it's density and flexibility when it gets extremely cold.

Thing is, I've found goatskin the MOST flexible in subzero weather exposure, so we're kind of back to where YOU started, aren't we?

Regards! Michaelson

It took some times to get used to, but goat kinda' wears on ya' after awhile.

Texan Scott wrote:It took some times to get used to, but goat kinda' wears on ya' after awhile.

Yeah, some old goats do that to you sometime.

Oh, we were talking about jackets, right?

Regards! Michaelson

...right!

The horsehide A-2 flight jacket is probably the classic leather jacket of all time. It is also probably at least a partial inspiration for the Indy jacket. During WW2 (and straight through to today) everyone appreciated it’s style. German aviators and officers would routinely “confiscate (and or) liberate” them from captured American aviators. Fighter and bomber pilots painted and put patches on them, personified them, and turned them into works of art.

And yet they weren’t great for keeping you warm at high altitude. The A-2 (and the Navy’s M-422/G-1) were throwbacks to the preceding era of open cockpit flying where leather was used to stop the wind.

During WW2 many flight crews traded their A-2’s for other jackets like the popular tank crew jacket, which was cloth with a wool blanket lining. Indeed the A-2 was cancelled during the war and replaced with the B-10, a jacket made from cloth gabardine with an alpaca lining.

http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/weba ... rodid=1264

The Indy jacket has always looked great, but has never been that functional (unless all you want is to look good).

Chewbacca Jones wrote:
Of course, you could get an B-3 jacket, which would be for colder weather only.

I have a B-3 which I use at night, in the middle of winter, when I'm hanging outside at a coffee shop and enjoying a cigar. I live in So. California and can't really use it otherwise. But on those occasions when I can use it, you can't beat sheepskin. It's awesome.

Rundquist wrote:

Chewbacca Jones wrote:
Of course, you could get an B-3 jacket, which would be for colder weather only.

I have a B-3 which I use at night, in the middle of winter, when I'm hanging outside at a coffee shop and enjoying a cigar. I live in So. California and can't really use it otherwise. But on those occasions when I can use it, you can't beat sheepskin. It's awesome.

Well yeah, especially sheep skin with fleece still attached

Leather won't keep you warm, so use it as a wind breaker. Lately, the outdoor clothing world uses breathable fabrics for shells (e.g., gortex). That being said, what leather breaths the most? They all breath, except for caribou. Caribou is the only waterproof leather. Ask any Native American from Alaska. There are no caribou indy jackets. So, then you have to consider the finish because the finish is really what gives some particular leathers their water-proof reputation. People seem to think horsehide is waterproof. No. Scrape off that plastic-like finish and you get a leather that soaks up water like a sponge. So, the best thing would be to consider a leather without a thick finish, as this will allow your skin to breath.

On a cold day, I can layer with my horsehide Wested. In the end, I get a lot of trapped persperation.

I have a washed goat Wested also. I can layer with this and feel warm and dry all day.

I understand that goat is the most water resilient of hides.

CM wrote:I understand that goat is the most water resilient of hides.

Of the hides I've owned, I'd say that's true. But I have no experience with horsehide, so that might be more resistant. Goatskin is not my favorite hide in terms of feel and look, but it has proven the most useful in my collection because of it's water resistance and it mid-weight warmth.

One of these should definetly fit the bill:

Rundquist wrote:The horsehide A-2 flight jacket is probably the classic leather jacket of all time. It is also probably at least a partial inspiration for the Indy jacket. During WW2 (and straight through to today) everyone appreciated it’s style. German aviators and officers would routinely “confiscate (and or) liberate” them from captured American aviators. Fighter and bomber pilots painted and put patches on them, personified them, and turned them into works of art.

And yet they weren’t great for keeping you warm at high altitude. The A-2 (and the Navy’s M-422/G-1) were throwbacks to the preceding era of open cockpit flying where leather was used to stop the wind.

During WW2 many flight crews traded their A-2’s for other jackets like the popular tank crew jacket, which was cloth with a wool blanket lining. Indeed the A-2 was cancelled during the war and replaced with the B-10, a jacket made from cloth gabardine with an alpaca lining.

http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/weba ... rodid=1264

The Indy jacket has always looked great, but has never been that functional (unless all you want is to look good).

that's why the A-2 and M422/G1 were 'summer flying' jackets and why the fleece jackets existed for winter wear.

The later cloth jackets weren't exactly fought over, in fact according to many WW2 aircrew veterans I've known it was the A-2 that was fought over to get after the cloth jackets came out and worn in flight, if one didn't already have an A-2. They were a 'symbol' of belonging, not just a jacket.

The AAF went to cloth mostly because of cost.

All that aside Blueoakleys, the best you can do is layer for warmth under your jacket.

Well, keep in mind, no matter WHAT the season is/was, it's still pretty dang cold the higher you fly, so summer OR winter, at extreme altitudes, the A2 wasn't the be all DO all jacket for an aviator. The allies found out the hard way during WW2 that in order for a bomber to survive without fighter escort (and they had to for quite a while before the long ranger fighter was created), they HAD to fly extremely high....more than likely the reason the A2 took a backseat and a warmer jacket was substituted in its place.

Regards! Michaelson

don't forget they also had electrically heated flightsuits.

Blue, you've got to love your goat.

blueoakleyz isn't your Wings jacket an A-2?

RCSignals wrote:don't forget they also had electrically heated flightsuits.

....yep...when they worked.

Regards! Michaelson

RCSignals wrote:

Rundquist wrote:The horsehide A-2 flight jacket is probably the classic leather jacket of all time. It is also probably at least a partial inspiration for the Indy jacket. During WW2 (and straight through to today) everyone appreciated it’s style. German aviators and officers would routinely “confiscate (and or) liberate” them from captured American aviators. Fighter and bomber pilots painted and put patches on them, personified them, and turned them into works of art.

And yet they weren’t great for keeping you warm at high altitude. The A-2 (and the Navy’s M-422/G-1) were throwbacks to the preceding era of open cockpit flying where leather was used to stop the wind.

During WW2 many flight crews traded their A-2’s for other jackets like the popular tank crew jacket, which was cloth with a wool blanket lining. Indeed the A-2 was cancelled during the war and replaced with the B-10, a jacket made from cloth gabardine with an alpaca lining.

http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/weba ... rodid=1264

The Indy jacket has always looked great, but has never been that functional (unless all you want is to look good).

that's why the A-2 and M422/G1 were 'summer flying' jackets and why the fleece jackets existed for winter wear.

The later cloth jackets weren't exactly fought over, in fact according to many WW2 aircrew veterans I've known it was the A-2 that was fought over to get after the cloth jackets came out and worn in flight, if one didn't already have an A-2. They were a 'symbol' of belonging, not just a jacket.

The AAF went to cloth mostly because of cost.

All that aside Blueoakleys, the best you can do is layer for warmth under your jacket.

I’m not going to deny that the A-2 had/has a high cool factor. But you’re wrong about the tanker jacket. There are many pictures of pilots wearing the thing. The A-2 may have been designated a summer flight jacket, but that’s what you were stuck with in the cockpit of an airplane. The B-3 was too bulky for use in a cramp cockpit.

I’m sure that cost, not to mention a lack of leather supply played a role in the cancellation of the A-2. The airforce was not much for sentimentality. But general folklore (get it?) says that General “Hap" Arnold cancelled the A-2 because he wanted "something better". The A-2 was not warm. Leather also gets stiff in the cold. Guys froze in those things.


PS- You would be more likely to see happy pilots wearing an A-2 in the cockpit of a P-51 then you would see a happy pilot wearing an A-2 in a P-38 for instance. In the P-51 you sat on top of a radiator. You could actually get hot in one. You froze in a P-38. That’s one of the reasons that it was better suited for the Pacific theater. Well, that and the engines were less likely to blow up in the Pacific.

That's fine. As I said I've known my share of WW2 pilots (fighter and Bomber) and Bomber crew personnel.
I'll believe what they tell me about the A-2. I get 'folklore', do you?

There are many photos of pilots and crews wearing A-2s. There are many photos of the same with people wearing both. All newer aircrew past a certain point were only issued cloth and had no option unless they could scrounge an A-2.

But none of that helps Blueoakleys

RCSignals wrote:That's fine. As I said I've known my share of WW2 pilots (fighter and Bomber) and Bomber crew personnel.
I'll believe what they tell me about the A-2. I get 'folklore', do you?

There are many photos of pilots and crews wearing A-2s. There are many photos of the same with people wearing both. All newer aircrew past a certain point were only issued cloth and had no option unless they could scrounge an A-2.

But none of that helps Blueoakleys

Yes the A-2 was a popular jacket. Yes it was discontinued. Yes the B-10 was standard issue from that point on. But pilots were never ever issued the tank crew jacket, yet some still got their hands on them.

My father is an aviation nut, specifically WW2. There’s 50 years worth of books and magazines at his place. Some of it I’ve naturally picked up through osmosis.

My point is/was not to de-glorify the A-2. It’s the classic leather jacket of all time. My point was that the A-2 (or any 1 layer leather jacket) will not keep you as warm as a jacket with a lining.

A B-10 is warmer than an A-2, period. If you cared about staying warm during high altitude flying, it stands to reason that some pilots might opt for the warmer jackets if given a choice.

RCSignals wrote:But none of that helps Blueoakleys

Exactly. Regardless of the debate on who wore what in WWII, the thread pertains to someone in the present trying to find a warmer jacket. Let's get this one back on the rails.

binkmeisterRick wrote:

RCSignals wrote:But none of that helps Blueoakleys

Exactly. Regardless of the debate on who wore what in WWII, the thread pertains to someone in the present trying to find a warmer jacket. Let's get this one back on the rails.

Not exactly. The whole point of bringing up the cloth jackets was that they both had linings and were used by some over the leather alternative by choice. I didn't push the discussion off center.

I don't care where this goes, there's always something fun to talk about.

Yes mine is an A-2
And I'll try and get some pics tomorrow. I've actually noticed it getting softer AFTER being doused with rain.

Sooo what I've learned so far is that the leather type isn't going to matter because one doesn't trap heat better than the other (this is actually a relief since I can just worry about style of leather) BUT if you have something like a sweater, then the heavier the more trappy it will be...

Hmmm so going to liners then....

I don't know... I've noticed a difference from one hide to another. Maybe I'm more sensitive than most? In any event, you're right about layers and linings. For more wintery wear, that's what will make the real difference.

Wear your sheepskins! Another option I've seen is pilots wearing a flightsuit over their 422 jacket. Some of the AVG guys in China did that pretty routinely.

Of course that might get you a few stares on the street these days

Rundquist wrote:............ I didn't push the discussion off center.

neither did I.

blueoakleyz wrote:........

Hmmm so going to liners then....

Liners? as in a jacket thqat comes with one or retrofitting?

What you are really getting at is back to layering. Wearing something warm under your jacket. a fleece jacket, a fleece vest, a sweater.

There are leather jackets that come with removable liners (flight type jackets, Motorcycle jackets, etc), and it has been said a few times that Magnoli will make an I-J jacket with a removable lining if that's what you want.