Calling all Jacket Experts...

BwanaJohn · Post by **BwanaJohn** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:26 pm

Is there, or is there not, a Screen Worn Jacket from an Indy Film (also a hat and whip) on display at The Smithsonian? Last time I checked it was still in Washington...Thank you.

BwanaJohn · Post by **BwanaJohn** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:47 pm

Thank you. So much for solving these Jacket Disputes...on to the next arguments!

Forrest For the Trees · Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:03 pm

That explains why the jacket was not on view after the recent renovation. Hmmm... How about the hat? Do they still have it?

Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:06 pm

As much as I agree with Todd on most stuff. I cant on this one.

I did some heavy screen grab work because I am a HUGE LC fan and to me it really looks like the smithsonian is screen used. I have more pictures then this.

we have a big thread on this too somewhere...

Im not looking to start anything here. hey! the author did call for all jacket experts, so, I thought I'd share my opinion

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:10 pm

Was there only one jacket used for the hero jacket in LC?

Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:12 pm

no, the main Hero jacket used is ownded by Ford himself.

there was this jacket (smithsonian) and the jacket that is displayed at the chicago museum.

all 3 worn.

BwanaJohn · Post by **BwanaJohn** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:13 pm

That's why I like this club...Great Research Photos!

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:37 pm

I defer to Todd on a lot of this stuff as well, but the thread that Holt mentions presents a VERY compelling argument that the Smithsonian jacket is screen used, particularly during the battle with the tank scenes. I know Holt put forth a lot of good evidence as did Indiana Strones if I remember correctly.

On a side note, I'm thinking that many here (including myself) believe the Chicago jacket was used primarily in the castle scenes. I wonder where the jacket Ford has was worn? During the scenes in the Grail temple perhaps?

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:50 pm

OMG seriously? How many times are we going to go over this?!?!? Sorry, not trying to be a D-bag, but PLEASE use the SEARCH function.

Kyle

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:55 pm

crismans wrote: I wonder where the jacket Ford has was worn? During the scenes in the Grail temple perhaps?

I thought the same thing at first, but now I think the jacket used in the Grail Temple is the same one that's on display in the Smithsonian.

Kyle

Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:59 pm

OMG seriously? How many times are we going to go over this?!?!? Sorry, not trying to be a D-bag, but PLEASE use the SEARCH function.

Kyle

Kyle. its getting old!

he's new!

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:21 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:
OMG seriously? How many times are we going to go over this?!?!? Sorry, not trying to be a D-bag, but PLEASE use the SEARCH function.

Kyle

Kyle. its getting old!

he's new!

Ya ya. I'm cool now.

Kyle

Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:26 pm

yes you have my friend. I respect your opinion. but you gotto admit that screen grabs has helped just alittle thruout the years? well, IMO it has

but, if Ford says he only wore one jacket thruout LC then how can anybody explain this?

look at the stormflap/collarstand constructions.

the jacket to the left has the collarstand meeting halfway onto the stormflap while the jacket to the right has the collarstand beginn at the end of the stormflap. I have more pictures.

both of these two jacket has also different strap placement. one is higher then the other.

sorry my friend. But Ford wears more then one jacket in the film. its right there.

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:33 pm

Maybe Ford just doesn't remember correctly? I have no doubt that Todd's sources are MORE than reliable, but I'm gonna have to agree with Holt on this one... The evidence is just too great to prove otherwise.

Kyle

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:45 pm

_, I have a world of respect for your sources and I fully understand that screen grabs can be misleading. But there is no amount of Fuller's earth, lighting (strobes, phosphorescent, incandescent, or otherwise) that can move a collar along a storm flap.

Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:46 pm

When I've relayed the screengrab evidence that some have gathered to people who work with this stuff, I hear the same comments of "that's dirt" or "that's lighting" or " that's fullers earth" or "those are remnants of this-or-that material that we apply"...

I understand that. but this is more then 'dirt' or 'fullers' its a whole different collar construction and the clear screen grab evidence is right there infront of us.

sorry my firend. as much as I know you do your homework it is possible that Ford remembers incorrectly. there are at least two jackets used by Ford. if not 3.

if I really, really need to do a whole presantation to try an'convince some people then I will. afterall its a hobby right

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:54 pm

The thing with screengrabs is that for better or worse, at least people have the ability to analyse the information for themselves with their own eyes. This sort of situation shows why I have difficulty in accepting some of the things you say, _. Like the whole Bantu Wind fiasco, it flies in the face of what we can see. You can't explain Holt's points away with construction, or camera angle, lens distortion, etc.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:59 pm

_, which auction was the Smithsonian jacket sold at? The Butterfield or another one?

BTW I understand the 'Kurtz' jacket (which also was not a screen used jacket (and may even be a newer 'fan' 'Leather Concessionaires' that was mistakenly represented), is now owned by Paul Allen

Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:14 pm

This is not trying to convince ''ourselfs'' thats not needed. you take one random donkey from the streets of himalaya and show this two him and he would say: ah, those are two different jackets.

sorry, but denying this is like denying that there was only one hat used in Raiders and that was an akubra

and in the picture under you can see the construction from the other side. this cant be explained away with ''because of different angles.'' its the way its constructed.and the smithsonian in the picture to the right above did not have this construction.

I know _ really does his homwork.. but Ford is no more then human like us and therefor can remember wrong.

we have to realize that we do this everyday( yes, its geeky but its our hobby) and Ford just takes this from nothing more then memory.

this is not 'dirt' not 'fullers' not 'stage lights and shadows' not 'distress marks from different angles' but this is a totally different collar construction and the evidence is right there in frot of us. I mean, ok we cant allways count on screen grabs. but its not like we use VHS screen stills today either. this is not hitting 'print screen' and hope for the best but working with a dvd program frame by frame by frame by frame... its a very nitpicking procsess.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:23 pm

_ wrote:Ford's pretty insistant he wore "his jacket" in LC. I've held it before and am working on getting some quality time with it. Maybe getting it a trip to Tony Nowak's shop. No promises...

that would be great if it comes to fruition.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:47 pm

I have to agree with you, Holt. Like I said, I respect _ and his sources VERY much, but the evidence is right there and can't be explained away with lighting, dirt, red hot magma, you name it. Someone has made a mistake.

If "Honest Abe" Lincoln came back from the dead and tried to tell me that those two pictures were of the same jacket, I'd tell him that I thought the shot had addled some things.

And I'm pretty sure there are at least two distinct jackets in Temple of Doom as well.

* I'm editing to add on how many times do we have to venture down this road. _, it wasn't that long ago that you told us, in light of some questions and inconsistencies that had been noted, you had to look at some of your sources' comments in a new light. Not toss them out, as they had proved correct on several things, but take some of their comments as either incorrect or exaggerated (I'm paraphrasing here). Now, in the face of what appears to be pretty incontrovertible visual evidence, that evidence is wrong because your sources say so?

No, screen grabs aren't the be-all, end-all. But neither are sources as memories fade and the human tendency to put those memories in a favorable light (as we've discussed with Nadoolman before). The best way is to use as many different approaches as possible and not dogmatically hold to one when other evidence points otherwise.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:52 pm

I don't know about that for Temple of Doom. Two jackets of the same pattern, one with more 'wrinkled' arms than the other maybe, but not much real distinction other than that.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:03 pm

RCSignals wrote:I don't know about that for Temple of Doom. Two jackets of the same pattern, one with more 'wrinkled' arms than the other maybe, but not much real distinction other than that.

I was replying to this by _:

but in Temple and LC, the is continuity documentation. Ford wore one jacket

I'm saying it appears that he wore at least two jackets. Not necessarily distinct in pattern but certainly in overall fit/appearance. I will grant that maybe it's one jacket that the arms could have "been worked on" to make them more wrinkled from one scene to another. I've not looked at it that much to comment with any kind of authority.

Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:17 pm

the images are so clear that they cant be mistaken.

show these two pictures to Ford and he too would say that these are two different jackets.

Ford:which movie are they from?

Intv:Last crusade....

Ford: oh

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:23 pm

so the question is, which jacket did Ford keep? Which of the two you show by collar configuration Holt does Ford wear the most?

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:34 pm

The thing is (and I'm going by memory here so Holt will need to verify) but I'm pretty sure that Holt made a convincing argument (again with those pesky screen caps but they are a tool in our toolbox and a valuable one) that the "castle" jacket is the one that was on display in Chicago. There's a long thread floating around here that really goes a long way to proving that the Smithsonian jacket was the "tank scene" jacket. If those two assumptions are correct (I'm saying if, here) unless Ford got hold of one of those jackets, then it would point to a third jacket being screen used.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:49 pm

I'm just waiting for _ to tell us LFL told him the second jacket was a matte painting.

Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:52 pm

you know st.dumas.

even though I dont agree with my friend _ on this issue here, were still agreeing on much and that your calling him out on wheter it be this or that are lame.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:57 pm

Fine, Holt, but I'm just holding eveyone to the same standard he does. He's the one who insists on proof then doesn't show his own. You can feel free to delete my last post in the interest of keeping the peace.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:39 pm

_ may well be right. If the jacket was distressed to look like the film one then this would explain the similar markings - they copied the original. The collar is harder to explain.

My problem is finding it hard to believe that the wardrobe people would distress a jacket in such an exacting fashion, when no one was able to do this kind of checking until recently.

Remember that it took us years to work out the truth about the Raiders jacket - and we're still finding out. I wonder what the official story about the LC will be in a year or two. Maybe we'll find that the screen used one wasn't a Wested but an early G&B prototype in goatskin...

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:45 pm

CM, maybe the person, 'modelmaker' used higher quality production stills, not screen grabs, to duplicate the distressing?
Just a thought

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:12 pm

Well, there's two trains of thought going here. First, that a "modelmaker" copied the markings of a screen-used jacket for the Smithsonian jacket. Certainly possible, but, as CM alluded to, why would they use this type of exacting care even for a jacket that is in the Smithsonian? Who would even notice the distressing marks (other than, perhaps, the sanding along the seams--which I would also doubt for a casual observer) other than the inmates here? As has been said numerous times before, to the casual observer, an A2 is an Indy jacket.

Secondly, there's the discussion that Ford only wore one jacket which is HIGHLY suspect (my opinion) based on screen grabs showing two distinct, very different collar stand/stormflap configurations.

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:17 pm

But it doesn't change the fact that there are TWO DIFFERENT COLLAR STANDS

Kyle

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:27 pm

knibs7 wrote:But it doesn't change the fact that there are TWO DIFFERENT COLLAR STANDS

Kyle

See my point #2 above.

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:37 pm

My bad. Apparently I don't know how to read.

Sorry about that, friend.

Kyle

CM · Post by CM » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:40 pm

crismans wrote:Well, there's two trains of thought going here. First, that a "modelmaker" copied the markings of a screen-used jacket for the Smithsonian jacket. Certainly possible, but, as CM alluded to, why would they use this type of exacting care even for a jacket that is in the Smithsonian? Who would even notice the distressing marks (other than, perhaps, the sanding along the seams--which I would also doubt for a casual observer) other than the inmates here? As has been said numerous times before, to the casual observer, an A2 is an Indy jacket.

Secondly, there's the discussion that Ford only wore one jacket which is HIGHLY suspect (my opinion) based on screen grabs showing two distinct, very different collar stand/stormflap configurations.

Yes. Exactly. I can't accept that anyone would bother to distress the jacket in exactly the same way. It's not like they are trying to fake the Mona Lisa, is it?

Are there good screen grabs of the jacket Ford wore in the Young Indiana series? This is meant to be the jacket he took home, isn't it?

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:45 pm

CM wrote:
Are there good screen grabs of the jacket Ford wore in the Young Indiana series? This is meant to be the jacket he took home, isn't it?

I think the jacket in MOTB is the same jacket used in the tank scene in LC

Kyle

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:48 pm

Kyle

WalkingEye · Post by **WalkingEye** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:26 am

Indiana Holt wrote:yes you have my friend. I respect your opinion. but you gotto admit that screen grabs has helped just alittle thruout the years? well, IMO it has

but, if Ford says he only wore one jacket thruout LC then how can anybody explain this?

look at the stormflap/collarstand constructions.

the jacket to the left has the collarstand meeting halfway onto the stormflap while the jacket to the right has the collarstand beginn at the end of the stormflap.

it looks to me that the stormflap collar junction on the jacket in the right photo lines up with the same point with the photo on the left. In the right photo the end of the shirts collar is resting on top of the jacket collar not next to it. if you look closely you can see what, at least to me, is the rest of the jacket collar just to the left of the shirt collar point; ending at the same point just above the edge of the snap as seen in the other photo.

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:29 am

Just look closely at the placement of the top snap. The distance from the edge of the storm flap to the snap changes

Kyle

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:45 am

Sorry, Walking Eye, but I don't see what you're seeing. The shirt folds or curves behind under the storm flap. It doesn't go over it, it doesn't obscure the flap at all. Both pictures Holt provided show clear views of the collarstand/storm flap configurations and they are different.

Plus, you have to factor in what Kyle said (and Holt earlier). The snaps aren't even in the same place.

Post by **Holt** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:05 am

_ wrote:
I'll count on you to help me with it.

I just did.

_. if you get the chance to look closer at Fords personal jacket. please take note of the collarconstruction. you gotto admit my friend. its interesting right

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:39 am

...and photos would be nice....

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:55 am

Now both those things would be great. With the production stills, if you can get positives or negs, get those suckers to a HR500. That'll do about 9000dpi if I recall.

Just spend the time scanning jacket shots moreso than hats, ok?

Post by **Holt** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:57 am

okay. here is the last effort..

Post by **Holt** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:58 am

oh, I see you allready had answered me

ah well, take it for what it is worth

Post by **Holt** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:59 am

_ wrote:
Yojimbo Jones wrote:...and photos would be nice....
I'm working on getting it into Tony's hands, with phots of him and Harrison...

OMG. that would be amazing. I have allways wanted a dead on copy of the LC jacket. you rock my friend!

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:37 am

So the AO jacket was distressed at the same time as the copies? Also, maybe keppler can answer: what hide was the AO jacket made of?

knibs7 · Post by **knibs7** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:54 am

Sounds good, Todd. I do admit that I am merely basing my assumptions on what the screen grabs show me and I know that you have far more resources than I do, so I'll just wait to hear from you. I'm not at all trying to discredit what you're saying, I'm just going on what I see. I will be more than happy to admit I'm wrong, just show me proof

Thanks for helping us out, my friend

Kyle

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:25 am

Sounds good. Looking forward to seeing the new write-ups.