Club Obi Wan

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... tegory=987

I'm not sure I'm supposed to post this but this guy claims he is selling a joe strain whip, but 2 out of the 3 pics are stenhouse whips!!?? I'd tell him but I don't know my moms ebay password.
scott

I posted about this whip last night and it appears to have been deleted. I posted about it because I've seen this situation before on Ebay where the whip wasn't what it was claimed to have been. So I thought I would point it out just to let anyone know to ask a lot of questions before bidding, but I guess we're not supposed to post about that stuff.

Jim

Admins:

This is an example of an ebay post that should stay. This has the makings of a fraud.

In fact, we caught a guy last year selling 25 whips that he copied a picture from another site. When pressed with that fact, which indeed was fraud, he retracted his auction.

-Sergei

It also states in the description that the whip has a shot loaded core. As far as I know niether Strain nor Stenhouse use shot loading in their whips. The bottom two photos are definitely Paul's.

There is another auction on there as well that looks to be a Stenhouse crafted whip also. I could be mistaken though. The description mentions DM several times, including the roo hide being purchased from him, but does not state who the actual whip maker is. Buyer beware.

Kyle is this the one you stated....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=3175
i dont think it is one of pauls whips....dont look
good enough...and this is the 3 one of these this guy
has sold each one with its own pictures. He also states
in the discription that the hide was selected for him
just my 2 cracks...
mola

Mola,

I wrote to that guy and he is the whipmaker. Apparently he buys his hides from Morgan.

Jerry

The_Edge wrote:It also states in the description that the whip has a shot loaded core. As far as I know niether Strain nor Stenhouse use shot loading in their whips. The bottom two photos are definitely Paul's.

The only whipmaker I know that shot loads roo whips, is Bernie. The nylon whipmakers have to shot load to get the proper weight and balance to work out. Convention for roo bullwhips is to weight them with lead tape on the handle foundation. Anybody else? Duke, Edge, Stenhouse, etc. care to chime in.

It is much easier to use lead tape than making a shot bag. I have done a few, but on my Indy bullwhips that I make, I use lead tape.

I think it's good to warn others about these frauds. I can just hear the "stampede" over to eBay. What some of us whipmakers may need to do is put a "copyright" across the photos on our sites. It happens ALL the time.

I was the one who alerted the owner of the whips being sold in that Dutch auction for about 25 roo bullwhips about a year ago. It was Alex Jacobs of www.cobrawhips.com
I told him about the situation and he said "No way, are they his whips".
Yet the seller/lister on eBay had Jacobs' whip pics on eBay. EBay was contacted by both Alex and me to warn the seller who was looking to gain several thousand dollars. He cancelled his auction immediately. Since then Alex has "copywright" on his whip photos on his website now from my suggestion.

Was I supposed to chime in and then ...crack out?

You did great, Robert!

Paul Stenhouse, you should contact the seller to warn him on copyright infridgement. BTW, you don't even have to have the word or the letter, C, to get copyright protection.

You might to check this out:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

Sergi,

I do shot load some of my bullwhips, especially some of the longer whips such as the 9 and 10 footers and up. Ala Bernie. It helps balance the whip. A small shot bag with about 1.5 oz of #9 shot carries the weight out a bit from the handle and actually seems to act as a shock absorber.

On the long handled (16" graphite) there is no thong weighting. The butt end has some lead wool in the handle core for balance. The thong is naturally weighted.

Basically it depends on what the customer wants, or in the case of my whips, whatever I am feeling about the whip I'm making.

I think there are a couple more whipmakers across the country that do shot load some of their whips. Steve Blanton does on occasion I think and Derald Bright has in the past as well as Benton Cassaday and several others.

Anyway that's my chime in time.

Jerry R

jerryrwm wrote:Sergi,

I do shot load some of my bullwhips, especially some of the longer whips such as the 9 and 10 footers and up. Ala Bernie. It helps balance the whip. A small shot bag with about 1.5 oz of #9 shot carries the weight out a bit from the handle and actually seems to act as a shock absorber.

On the long handled (16" graphite) there is no thong weighting. The butt end has some lead wool in the handle core for balance. The thong is naturally weighted.

Basically it depends on what the customer wants, or in the case of my whips, whatever I am feeling about the whip I'm making.

I think there are a couple more whipmakers across the country that do shot load some of their whips. Steve Blanton does on occasion I think and Derald Bright has in the past as well as Benton Cassaday and several others.

Anyway that's my chime in time.

Jerry R

That's good info Jerry. And it makes sense on longer handled whips with a graphite handle. I have owned a Blanton whip. I am for certain he does absolutely no shot loading. In fact hardly any special weighting. I cracked two, besides the one I bought. But that maybe just a small sample. The others you mention, I have seen pictures but no experience to tell either way.

Thanks,

-S

Dear Sergei,

I just sent the following message to the individual.

"Did you know that two of those pictures are whips I made? I didn't know you were selling them out from under me. C'mon now, straighten this out.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse"

It really doesn't bother me that he has done this, but I'd feel bad for the owner when they end up with something that isn't in the picture. Does this mean I get to sue the guy for millions!

I don't shot load anything, either.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Yes, I believe you could sue him if you wanted to. Hats off to ya for giving the guy a chance first, though. That's respectable. Far too many people go straight for the pocket book these days

Regards,

Farn

The top picture looks like the one US Wings offers.
The pic on USWings.com:



THe one on the auction:


It looks like he took out the background and additional pic of the handle.

Hi.

Yes, I know those pictures are yours. I took them form our site because I
don't have a digital camera to take a picture of mine. I took your pictures
because they look just like mine, but I did not mean to upset anyone. I am
sorry if I did upset you.

Is there anything I can do now to make peace with you? I really did not mean
harm. I promise that if the whip does not get sold and I have to auciton it
agian I will get some pictures of my own.

Also, my wife is telling me that I should have asked your permission first,
and she is absolutely correct. I don't know why did'nt I thought of that
before. Is it too late to ask for your permission to use those pictures?

Hope it is ok.
Best regards to you too.
Alejandro.




.....is the response that I got from this individual. I think I'll ask him to take down the pictures because it isn't what he is selling.

Interesting, though.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

I thought I'd be nice about it.

Dear Alejandro,

I would like you to take them down, since it is a misrepresentation of what you are offering. And, I own the property rights to these pictures. I don't know where you live, but in this country, it's called false advertising. My advice to you is that you get a film camera, and take pictures of several of your whips for reference. Then you may use a picture and state that the picture is similar. If you were buying a whip, and saw those pictures, that's what you'd expect to get. Anyone worth their salt can see that the three are different. Put yourself in the shoes of the buyer and represent yourself honestly.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

I realize this is probably way off topic, but I posted the back and forth messages out of interest to others. I'd certainly want to know.

Indiana jones bullwhips sure a fun! Is that redeeming enough?

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

THe one on the auction:


It looks like he took out the background and additional pic of the handle.

This picture is actaully taken directly from mark allens catalog(Western Stage Props) , it is the joe strain indywhip picture mark has had in it for a couple years now.

also, there seems to be a couple other ebay auctions within the past couple weeks where the seller used pictures that werent of the actual whip. There was another one that used the pictures straight out of marks(western stage props) catalog. I emailed him and explained to him the fact that all whips are not alike, even if made exactly the same and by the same person. And that he would have a better chance of selling it if he had a picture of the actual whip, and I gave him a few other facts that would help him out.

Needless to say no one bid on his whip, but he did redo the auction and added a picture of the actual whip.

I would also like to advise that one should be careful when confronting sellers about this sort of thing. I know it may seem to us that the people are misrepresenting the items(which in truth they are), but the point is that they are not intending to. Its easy to forget after we have been into this for so long, and have gotten so knowlegeable, that there are others out there who dont necessarily know what they have, or dont have all the facts.

This guy that has pictures of Paul S. whips on his auction, he seems genuinely sorry, and doesnt appear to be purposefully misrepresenting his item. To him its an 'exact copy' of the indiana jones whip, and Joe strains is also an 'exact copy', as well as all of us indywhip makers. But keep in mind, to him they seem to be the same.

No harm done, but it seemed a little harsh how the sellers were delt with. Im just trying to keep an accurate perspective on things.

In fact often I forget that aside from our elite whip groups and lists that not many people are very educated about whips. I find my self haveing to go back and remembering what I first thought about whips when I first got into it, and all the misconceptions and misinformation that I had before.

Its all a learning experience, I hope it never ends...

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Ps-By the way Paul S. Your whip the guy had pictured looks excellent. Good job. Quality work.

Paul,

Well, I thought I was trying to be nice about it, but I don't think that came across. Oh well. I'm not in the least bit angry about it. I'm just trying to look at it from the buyers point of view. I recently bought a kayak that didn't have everything pictured, because the seller took the picture directly from the manufacturers website. Experience shapes us, for sure.

Around Thanksgiving, I'll be near your neck of the woods, and wouldn't mind meeting up with you if you're in town. I 'd like that very much to put a name to a face!

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

If I were that guy, I would NOT be asking to meet you in person! He obviously still does not see that what he did was wrong. I know as a buyer, if I were told I was bidding on a Stenhouse or Strain whip, and then received a completely different product, I would be extraordinarily upset. I tip my hat to you Paul, for being so courteous, diplomatic, and patient with this guy. But keep your eye on his auctions...
Regards--Maryon

Well, He added two pics of what I think is the actual whip he's selling, but there is still one stenhouse whip pic there!!?? Oh well
-scott

This is what the guy wrote to me in an email the other day.

I don't have a picture of my actual whip because I don't have a digital
camera. I thought about using a regular camera, develping the picture and
then scanning it, but decided it was easier this way. The whip does look
exactly like those in those pictures.

I bought the whip directly from Western Stage Props and can show you the
invoice if you want showing how much I paid for it.

I also bought at the same time some videos, fibbings aussie wax and a whip
holder. If you are interested I can also sellyou this for another 20
dollars. This is less than half of what they are worth. I never even opened
the videos, they are in their original wrapping.

If indeed it is a Strain, and it's in the condition he says it's in, it's an absolute steal.

Paul_Stenhouse wrote:Paul,

Well, I thought I was trying to be nice about it, but I don't think that came across. Oh well. I'm not in the least bit angry about it. I'm just trying to look at it from the buyers point of view. I recently bought a kayak that didn't have everything pictured, because the seller took the picture directly from the manufacturers website. Experience shapes us, for sure.

Around Thanksgiving, I'll be near your neck of the woods, and wouldn't mind meeting up with you if you're in town. I 'd like that very much to put a name to a face!

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Sorry about that Maryon, That was Paul Stenhouse writing to me. Thats the confusion that happens when two people have the same first name. Sorry about the mix-up.

Paul S.,

I know you meant well, and you were pretty nice about it, it just came across to me that it was a little stern. No worries though, no harm done. Like I said he seems genuinely sorry. You did fine.

Around thanksgiving looks fine to me. I would love to meet up with you. I would hope your bringing whips with you.) You'll have to pm me with a general date, that way I can try to make sure Im home, just incase.

I love to meet up with fellow whipmakers, exchange stories and see how we make the same things differently. Its always such a learning experience to discuss whipmaking with other whipmakers. Two people can make the same quality whip, almost identacle on the outside, and performance, and the inside will be made almost a completely different way. Its so much fun.

If you dont mind my asking, what are you coming to St. Louis for?

Regards,

Paul Nolan

midwestwhips wrote:Sorry about that Maryon, That was Paul Stenhouse writing to me. Thats the confusion that happens when two people have the same first name. Sorry about the mix-up.

Ahhhh...that makes more sense. I thought that was a little strange....Well, 2 quality whip-makers meeting up...now that's a different story. Have fun, you two!
Regards--Maryon

Dear Paul NOLAN,

I'll be coming there for Thanksgiving with my wife's family. If you are in St. Louis or near, as your profile states, then I'll only be able to meet up with on Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving. I hope that works out for you. We'll have to talk more when the date approaches.

To anyone else reading along: Clear your minds. I didn't mean anything like, "Let's take it outside!"

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Of course not! I actually thought that the guy who was trying to sell that whip as one of yours was wanting to meet you. (I thought that would have been pretty gutsy of him!) It's all sorted out in my (sometimes confused) mind now. Based on what you posted here that you emailed to the guy, you were a true diplomat in dealing with him.

Oh, Paul (S)--it may be awhile (as, I'm a poor grad student!)--I'm seriously considering one of yours whips for my next purchase. 8-foot, 2-tone (med. brown and natural), 12 plait. Maybe for Christmas or when I get my student loan $$$ next semester... And I can't wait until the DVD shows up.
Regards--Maryon

Deary Maryon,

I see what you meant, now. I guess it is a bit confusing having another Paul to deal with.

Your DVD is going in the mail today, just so you know, and if you ever decide you'd like me to make you something, I'll be around. I'd feel bad, though, if your eyeballs got bigger than your wallet That happens to me sometimes, too!

Let me know how you like the video, if you wouldn't mind.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Dear Paul--

My eyeballs have already gotten bigger than my wallet this year....I do have to put Gear purchases (and anything other than food, rents, bills, and car payments) on hold for awhile. But I shall indeed let you know when I have the means for another whip--like I said, MAYBE sometime around Christmas. Your whips come highly recommended!

I shall indeed let you know when I get the DVD, and what I think. Based on what everyone here has said, it's going to be invaluble for both learning the basic cracks, and whip maintainence. I've got the circus and horizontal cracks down pretty well, but I'm still having trouble with the forward and the reverse horizontal, so hopefully the DVD will help me out with those. In another thread (the one where my boyfriend's pleading for help with his swivel-handle whip), someone mentioned that while the Alex Green/Mark Allen videos are good, yours is even better. I can't wait. I definitely plan to spend a lot of time with the whip this weekend--so hopefully the DVD will arrive by then.

Thanks for everything. You've been really great--another example of the fine people who gather here at Indygear.
Best regards--Maryon

Dear Maryon,

Hopefully your DVD should arrive today to your address. I mailed it on Tuesday at noon. I haven't seen the Alex Green video's, so I can't compare. I made this video with the idea of being able to teach others how to do it all. I think I came pretty close to the mark, but I'm sure there's room for improvement, too.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse