Club Obi Wan

WOW! This certainly does clear up a few things! For everything I have heard, there were 2 conflicting stories to the hats orgins. One story was that Harrison and Steven went to HJ and that's where they got it, and the other was D.N. went to HJ and bought their Australian model. According to this she didn't go to HJ (unless HJ stocked Akubras... which I am not so sure about).

Also, as the stories went, that D.N. and Harrison were the ones creating the look of the fedora. Apparently D.N. had nothing to do with creating the fedora.

Do any of the receipts state what model hat they went with? Was it a modified "Poet" or something else?

So they were Poets? Interesting. I believe D.N. stated that they were modified Australian models.

It's hard to refute facts.

Thanks for sharing this information!

The problem is now there are three conflicting stories as to how the fedora came to look the way it did. We have Nadoolman's side, Swales side, and now Spielberg has a version too. I am more inclined to believe that Spielberg and Ford worked on shaping the hat than anyones else but it just seems logical for the costume designer to do that. Confusing but now we have more to speculate on! Thanks!

Dave

Actually, Swales version lines up nicely with this information.

That said, other than DN claiming to have picked up the hat at HJ, her version kind of works too. Remember, she was off the lot after the first day (stated in the new research and by her own recently posted interview), so she had no CLUE what hat they actually used, and more than likely assumed they used what she 'designed'. Heck, even in agent5's interview she still claims they used Redwing boots. She didn't even know they changed THAT before the first frame of film was shot. She knew what she recommended and designed for the costume, but after that it was all 'assumption' on her part that it was all used exactly as she spec'd.

Regards! Michaelson

Just in interviews that I have seen on DVD, SS has an acute sense of detail regarding direction, down to the perspective of envisioning a shot before it is filmed. As he puts it, "I've already shot that scene in my mind". Someone with such an attention to detail would not be as apt to forget such things....known to lose sleep over how the fedora was going to look, before filming the latest installment, etc. You would expect that he has honed quite an eye for details over the years.

_ wrote:

Michaelson wrote:p.s. No reason to back into this section 'hat in hand', _....you were hand trimming hat brims before you ever started down the dark path of jacket research.

True... I still don't have fingerprints since I shaved them off doing dimensional cuts...

What were you using to cut them with??????

Thank You, _!!!!!!!

I am so glad you have looked into this. Reading all your jacket research had me asking myself what you had on the infamous hat.
Again,
Thank You

LLS

Definitely interesting to follow the facts and see which stories hold up to new discoveries. And also interesting how all tend to have nuggets of the truth, but some bend it to their own personal needs. Not pointing out specific people as all who've told the stories have aspects of said actions.

"Nubs". Love it!

Awesome find _, finally some truth out there that at least can be shared. At least we know one hat is grey. Thanks for researching the hat, at least Swales story fits well into what you have found here. Keep up the great work.

IndianaChris

_

Dont you think its time to address the really burning issues now? Where are the socks receipts? The Indy Under Wear. The fans must know.

Ken

PS - I love the fact debate raged for years on things like that colour of the hat and one receipt could pretty much clear it up in seconds.

How about archiving this one? I only read the first two posts but that's archive material already to my eyes

_, just out of curiosity, what was the address of HJ shop on the receipt?

Also, do you have the possibility of asking Spielberg (as I understand you're in contact with him?) if Ford's grey hat was the same one worn by the nazi in Cairo? Does he remember?

By the way... EVERYTHING now makes sense after these information, D.N. stories, Spielberg's accounts... even Swales' stories. Thanks!

_, I have a couple questions for him....

ask him why the heck he hasnt returned any of my emails, phonecalls, letters. etc. etc....

last week I sent him only like 86 emails, so he should get them.

its getting frustrating.....

_ - thanks for the info. Good of you to do this. This really is great stuff.

Here is what confuses me - and perhaps you dealt with this indirectly in what you said about her memory - What you found seems to contradict things I have heard Deborah say. For example - this quote is from an interview she did with the Raider.net back in 2005. (I am sure you have read this):

"During one of our first fittings I emptied boxes of felt fedoras for Harrison to try on at Berman’s. Hats are extremely individual, and it is absolutely impossible for anyone to determine what will be right for someone else’s face. The height of the crown, the width of the brim, the ribbon, the color, are all components of the hat that will frame the actor’s face and imbue the character with substance. We took our time. Costume designers must also consider the needs of the cinematographer when designing hats – will the audience be able to see the actors face and eyes? When we found one that could be adapted, crown shortened, brim narrowed, I travelled to Herbert Johnson’s hatters in Saville Road to find the model which most closely resembled the one in my hand. They offered an "Australian" model – which, with fiddling, became the Indiana Jones fedora. I ordered one dozen, and I believe that number made it to the end of the film."

Actually most of this could still fit in the context of what you found ie - it doesnt sound like she bought hats at Bermans only tried them on HF there. What I have a hard time reconciling though is the last line about her ordering a dozen hats at HJ (I am sure I have heard/read her claim to have bought hats at Herbert Johnson in other interviews as well). While she might not remember or see the difference on the Redwing shoes I can't imagine she would not be able to tell that the hat used in the movie was nothing like the hat she bought if she had only bought one hat that was rejected by SS. In other words, if she had bought a very distinctive Aussie hat, that was obviously not what Indy wore and I am sure she would have noticed. Not that I expect you or anyone else to know , but how could she forget a thing like that?

I certainly believe what you have found but is there any chance a bill or 2 got lost - I mean who of us haven't misplaced a reciept or two in our lifetime. Or perhaps it grouped in with another expense? You did say she did not manage her budget well. By the way, do we know what the budget for the costume was?

Lastly is there another thread explaining the issue with the agreement with B&N and the rights to the wardrobe? Curious what the issue with this was.

Thanks
Canada

Lastly is there another thread explaining the issue with the agreement with B&N and the rights to the wardrobe? Curious what the issue with this was.

I can't answer any of the other things, but the Raiders jacket write-up does a good job explaining the above. And I don't think that any new revelations affect that part!

Great stuff _! Thank you buddy!

After 90 minutes interview I would have also thought it was an interrogation
Anyway it all fits, thanks _.

By the way, who's Monte Berman? the man from Del Monte?



It's Monty Berman

No problem, Patarsin. WE understand.



Regards! Michaelson...or is it '-sun'

I have an email buried WAY down in my 'save' file (one of the few IG items that I ever kept) that was sent by DN to the IG general mail box, claiming our information posted on the main page was all wrong, and attempted to get us to line our story up with her recollection. She said we were an Indy gear site. We owed the truth to the members.

The webmaster and I BOTH thanked her in reply, and asked what specific items she found so wrong, and would she answer a few specific questions we had regarding contradictions her 'history' had with other participants stories so we could correct them, or at least confirm with the other folks involved.

We never received a reply.

Regards! Michaelson

_ wrote:But Erri? I'm still not passing personal requests on the Spielberg...

Ah yes I know and understand, although my question wasn't personal, just a gear history question... trying to get more info on the famous grey hat. Well anyway, whatever info you get you know we will appreciate hearing it.

Interesting about the "fawn" colour. Did the receipt say what kind of grey? I know they had at least 2 different grey felts back in 1981.



Nice new avatar Michaelson

Erri wrote:
Nice new avatar Michaelson

Thank you!

Regards! Michaelson

Erri wrote: Interesting about the "fawn" colour. Did the receipt say what kind of grey?

I believe Spielberg's quote was, "The hat was [effin] grey!" Does that help?

binkmeisterRick wrote:I believe Spielberg's quote was, "The hat was [effin] grey!" Does that help?

In this case I think we should cross-check with Herbert-Johnson and ask if they ever had an "effin" colour

Well, if it was an HJ, an English hat, then it was "grey."

Thanks _. Very interesting. So, the prototype, Australian hat from HJ, wasn't a prototype after all. She never had the crown shortened, or the brim cut down....and sounds like she presented an unmodifed Australian hat as the Indy fedora prototype. Now, this makes no sense, but little about what we have heard of this fedora makes much sense, i.e. the conflicting stories of its origin. Someone had to have suggested the dimensional cut brim, which was NOT that common even during the heydey of hatting.

Going by what D.N. has said, she took one fedora with her, in her personal luggage to France at the onset of filming. Now, I have to wonder, IF she even went to France!

And yeah, S.S. is a hands on guy, going by what I know. I was amazed at the time, that he was the one to pick which hat was to be used in this last film. It surprised Bernie too! I think. Fedora

From catalogs I've seen over the years, Poets came (come?) with 3 inch untrimmed brims, so they could bash and trim the hat to the customer's wishes. I'm not sure what they do now, as everyone I've seen over the past 7-8 years are trimmed and bashed.

Swales uneven hand cut sissored brim trims are legendary.

Regards! Michaelson

Would a hat maker just put a dimensional cut on an raw hat? I don't have a clue.

No, I don't think so. A dimensional cut brim is so rare, someone had to have requested it. IMO. We heard once upon a time that this cut was used to show the face, etc. But not sure how a hat that was longer in front and back than on the sides would accomplish this. I was always puzzled by this. And the stock Poet, came with a 3 inch brim, still does.

And we still have the glaring difference between the Raiders fedora and what was used in the next film. The Raiders fedora was just so different than what followed. We have always wondered why. And when we heard that what D.N. had made for her, was a bespoke hat, we thought we finally had the answer! Now, that entire story of the bespoke hat, is questionable, and we have taken a big step backwards... Thanks _! Just kidding. Just when you think you have a handle on this Raiders fedora, the floor falls from beneath you. Fedora

Yep. Sissored.

I remember Max Schulte (IndyDiggs) telling me of going to London on a business trip, personally going to HJ and order a Poet from Mr. Swales himself, and watching Mr. Swales take a pair of long sheers and hand cut the brim for a dimensional cut to match what he made for Raiders (per Max's request).

Max said it looked pretty good from a distance, but was really rough looking up close. After a while the edges softened up, but he said he just watched in horror as the man did the deed.

Regards! Michaelson

This is fantastic info _!
Interesting the HJ hats they bought were listed as 'Fawn' colour and not Sable?

In an interview with Deborah she said...

During one of our first fittings I emptied boxes of felt fedoras for Harrison to try on at Berman’s. Hats are extremely individual, and it is absolutely impossible for anyone to determine what will be right for someone else’s face. The height of the crown, the width of the brim, the ribbon, the color, are all components of the hat that will frame the actor’s face and imbue the character with substance. We took our time. Costume designers must also consider the needs of the cinematographer when designing hats – will the audience be able to see the actors face and eyes? When we found one that could be adapted, crown shortened, brim narrowed, I travelled to Herbert Johnson’s hatters in Saville Road to find the model which most closely resembled the one in my hand. They offered an "Australian" model – which, with fiddling, became the Indiana Jones fedora. I ordered one dozen, and I believe that number made it to the end of the film.

Sure alot of details she went into, regarding the hat. Almost as if it really happened this way. If not, she is a great story teller. The question is, did she do this or not? Swales' acount only mentioned S.S. and Ford. Perhaps, she had already been to HJ, and S.S. and Ford picked the hat up that had the brim cut, to her specs, but was open crowned. They then took this hat and styled it, using the hot water, wash cloth,etc. This would explain the dimensional cut brim. I mean, Ford and SS had to have known to go to HJ....and if so, this could explain her involvement. And Swales only recalled the pickup of the hat, after D.N. had designed it? This is important stuff here. Fedora

Fedora wrote:Someone had to have suggested the dimensional cut brim, which was NOT that common even during the heydey of hatting.

_ wrote:I have two AMEX receipts from Steven's card to Herbert Johnson, Ltd, and the reimbursement he took. The first was for £175. The next was for 5 @ £875. So it looks like six total for £1,050. I don't see anything going through B&N.

What are the dates on the 2 receipts?
Because, my own deduction is, SS and HF went one day to HJ shop, look for a specific kind of fedora. Found "Poet".
Then talk to Mr. Swales (or some HJ employee), asking for some tweaks on the existing "Poet" (i.e.: change ribbon and bow, dim. cut, least tappered crown...). That day they bought one existing Poet -without modifications-, take it to France (BW scene)
Then they come back to UK, and just come by at HJ to pick up what they order....
Possible???

_ wrote:With the 5 is a note pad sheet with hand-written "5 Poets for S. Spielberg, pick-up" on the back it says "4 fawn, 1 grey"...

and mistery solved: the hat in the clipper and Washington scenes was GREY.

_, thanks for info!!!
Regards.-

Having gotten two HJ's back in the day through Lee, both were 'hand cut' by Swales, so I can attest to how it was done by scissors. If memory serves, the first even had the scraps he cut off. You could tell he did it my sight, if you will, as they weren't perfect matches to each other, but had the same characteristics…meaning they were trimmed off at the same points.

I believe Fedora used the dimensions of my second to study his dimensional cuts, but I'll allow him to confirm.

I asked Lee about the scraps and he said that's what Swales did for Harrison, cutting dimensionally to allow the camera to see the eyes and did it just rough right there on the spot. So there's another story that jives with other's tellings.

_ wrote:

Indiego Jones wrote:

_ wrote:With the 5 is a note pad sheet with hand-written "5 Poets for S. Spielberg, pick-up" on the back it says "4 fawn, 1 grey"...

bye-bye "Sable"...
and mistery solved: the hat in the clipper and Washington scenes was GREY.

_, thanks for info!!!
Regards.-

No... Read my caveat. Jesus! This is why I don't like offering up too much.

Sorry....you posted that in the meantime I was writing my post (I'm too slow in english)
(previous post edited)

Fedora wrote:In an interview with Deborah she said...

During one of our first fittings I emptied boxes of felt fedoras for Harrison to try on at Berman’s. Hats are extremely individual, and it is absolutely impossible for anyone to determine what will be right for someone else’s face. The height of the crown, the width of the brim, the ribbon, the color, are all components of the hat that will frame the actor’s face and imbue the character with substance. We took our time. Costume designers must also consider the needs of the cinematographer when designing hats – will the audience be able to see the actors face and eyes? When we found one that could be adapted, crown shortened, brim narrowed, I travelled to Herbert Johnson’s hatters in Saville Road to find the model which most closely resembled the one in my hand. They offered an "Australian" model – which, with fiddling, became the Indiana Jones fedora. I ordered one dozen, and I believe that number made it to the end of the film.

Sure alot of details she went into, regarding the hat. Almost as if it really happened this way. If not, she is a great story teller. The question is, did she do this or not? Swales' acount only mentioned S.S. and Ford. Perhaps, she had already been to HJ, and S.S. and Ford picked the hat up that had the brim cut, to her specs, but was open crowned. They then took this hat and styled it, using the hot water, wash cloth,etc. This would explain the dimensional cut brim. I mean, Ford and SS had to have known to go to HJ....and if so, this could explain her involvement. And Swales only recalled the pickup of the hat, after D.N. had designed it? This is important stuff here. Fedora

This makes sense to me. But, what then of the Akubra bought through Morgan? What if she went to HJ to have them modify the Akubra? Maybe that's what she meant by Australian model. All of this that I'm reading about Nadoolman now leads me to believe that she had a lot less to do with the hat than I previously thought. I have no doubt in my mind that Ford and Spielberg creased the hat themselves. Maybe the dimensional cut was them too. Imagine: Ford and Spielberg go to HJ to pick up the hats. Ford tries one on to make sure it looks right. Spielberg looks at Ford and says "Harry, I think we need to take some off of the brim. It's a hair too wide." So, they turn to Swales and ask for a bit off the sides and he obliges. Plausible?

Dave

You know, when Bernie was trying to get the right hat for Indy 4, it was obvious to me that Ford was giving him input on the hat. In fact, Bernie and Ford chose the shorter crowned sample I had with them. The 5 1/4. And the larger brim, 2 7/8 by 2 5/8. And this hat was in the bag, they thought. So, we had made several of these hats with those specs and was about to overnight them to Bernie. He called, and said, hold up! He had found out S.S. was gonna film test the costume, and pick which hat he wanted. He did, and picked the 5 1/2 crown, and 2 3/4 by 2 1/2 brim. Which was not the one that had been previously chosen. My point is, Harrison had a good idea of what the hat should be in specs. Which tells me, what S.S. has said, fits in with this, in regards to the Raiders fedora. Not that I would question what Steven told you, that would be pretty silly.

I am still somewhat puzzled though, over Deborah's real involvment with "the hat". Someone, and I have to take it to be S. S. decided on the dimensional cut(being a director with knowledge of camera angles, and such) , and had the ribbon changed out. From the stock wide Poet default ribbon, to the 39mm dark brown ribbon. They then recieved the hat open crown, going by what he told _. Now, if S.S. and Ford styled the hat, wtih the tight front crease, why did this crease style not be used in TOD? They would have known about it, especially, if they did it themselves. It's the little things that seem to throw a pebble in the gears. It seems to point to another person, being involved. Like the gal who was taking D.N's place, as someone had to.

The change in hats from Raiders to TOD to me, points back to a costumer designer. That is, a change in costume designers. Afterall, Tony was the designer in TOD and TLC, and those hats did not have the same sort of crease job done on them. Like this is what he chose, instead of the tight front crease. Why no continuity with the first hat? Seems like it would be very important. But I am trying to get some sense from all of this. Perhaps it is just impossible to do so. Bernie told me pre production was always complete chaos. This may figure into the hat story as well. But what arose from this chaos, was a pretty cool hat, regardless of whom is responsible for it! Too bad Mr. Swales has passed on. He could probably shed some light on the story. Or more light. Fedora

Well, I've read a couple times that Spielberg did NOT want a Raiders fedora for CS. I think you may have said this as well. So, maybe Spielberg decided in his mind to leave the Raiders fedora as is and move on to a different style for the rest of the films. This might be responsible for the change in style, as far as the hats go. With his eye for detail, he would have seen the difference immediately. So too would Ford. I think this was a concious decision made by Spielberg. Maybe Powell actually tried to get something more Raiders like into ToD but Spielberg shot it down, like the original CS specs. Who knows. But I think Spielberg had more to do with the hat, now, than we all gave him credit for.

Dave

What if she went to HJ to have them modify the Akubra? Maybe that's what she meant by Australian model.

Well, it is looking like we have to discount everything D.L. as stated over the years. Yet, someone let her tell this fabricated story on the bonus dvd that came with the release of the Indy Trilogy on dvd. See, this is not adding up to a clean story. Why let her fabricate the hat story, and then distribute it world wide? I mean, her story was on the dvd set! Doesn't this seem odd? Now, we hear that she basically left real early, and it seems as if she actually had little to do with the hat at all. And she even wasn't at B and N for the fitting, and letting Harrison try on hats. Remember in the Indy Fan interview, she stated they must have tried on a million hats, in arriving at "the look" Then she said, she went to HJ and used the Austrailian hat, as the only hats in stock were Italian looking models, short crowns, stingy brims. She stressed the Indy hat was no available for sale at the time, it was bespoke. And it was bespoke using a Aussie hat that was in stock at HJ. They cut the brim, perhaps shortened the crown, and changed out the ribbon. And used this as the model for Swales to make the rest.

Yet as _ said, this could be what she wished she would have done, in hindsight.

Where does the Akubra from Morgan figure in with this? Was this the hat, that was used instead of the HJ Australian hat? So, the Aussie HJ never existed? It was the Akubra Aussie hat instead? Fedora

Just tossing this out there....we all know that they used 'Secret of the Incas' film as an example of what they were going for regarding the 'look' for Raiders. Charlton Heston's 'Harry Steele' wore an Africian safari type wide brimmed hat. Anyone who's ever watched this film may have noticed that it caused Heston to be forced into holding his head at rather weird angles in order for his face to be lit on any interior shot. Reflectors are used to bounce light back into those dark recesses, but from personal experience, they're also the most noticable when they are moved or used inappropriately during a shot.

I believe the Akubra may have been grabbed first by DN because it did come close to the Harry Steele hat, but because of that lighting problem of Heston's face in 'Secret', they went with a hat with dimensional cut brim to avoid that lighting problem, as a LOT of Raider's scenes were interiors.

Like I said, just free wheeling here....

Regards! Michaelson

_ wrote:

Erri wrote:After 90 minutes interview I would have also thought it was an interrogation

And in fairness? At least half of that was Deb talking about her book...

LOL that's called a monologue then.

Back on topic, I wonder if it still fits the story of Swales spraying HIMSELF bleach around the ribbon. Is my memory playing tricks? Why would the shopkeeper do such a work? I would more easily believe that he sold to Spielberg open crown hats wrapped in plastic, in cardboard boxes.
This also makes me think again that this was one hat that you could purchase in HJ if you bought a poet in 1981. No special block other than what was regularly used for a Poet hat in 1981.

Well, I've read a couple times that Spielberg did NOT want a Raiders fedora for CS.

Well not exactly. Bernie did not tell me that. He only said he wanted continuity with TLC. But this was Bernie telling me, he himself wanted continuity. Now, this probably came from S.S. I never thought about it at the time, as Bernie seemingly at this point in time, was in charge of picking the hat. This changed, as I have said.

Now, they wanted continuity for Indy 4, but not for TOD? See, that is puzzling to me. The jacket had a rough contintuity. And the hat did if the color is the prime factor. But the details of the Raiders hat was dropped in TOD. No turn. Different style of front creases. Yet the TOD and TLC hat had a bit of continuity as did CS. The only real different hat in crease style was Raiders. Like they had a different costume designer than TOD and TLC, which of course they did. This fact, that the designer was different, logically explains WHY that hat was unlike what followed. Those pebbles are real bothersome to me. And logically point to D.N. as the creator. Even if you disregard ALL stories of the hat, and only use appearance as the only consideration. Fedora

Fedora wrote:Well, it is looking like we have to discount everything D.L. as stated over the years. Yet, someone let her tell this fabricated story on the bonus dvd that came with the release of the Indy Trilogy on dvd. See, this is not adding up to a clean story. Why let her fabricate the hat story, and then distribute it world wide? I mean, her story was on the dvd set! Doesn't this seem odd? Now, we hear that she basically left real early, and it seems as if she actually had little to do with the hat at all.

Oh thats an easy one... When they finally released the DVD set, we were around. They had spies in here.
They knew we'd scutinize the heck out of it... Someone was playing us and we all fell for it!

Maybe the fact that Raiders was supposed to take place in 1936, and Temple in 1935, SS wanted to make folks recognize they were completely different stories from different times.

Regards! Michaelson

Back on topic, I wonder if it still fits the story of Swales spraying HIMSELF bleach around the ribbon. Is my memory playing tricks? Why would the shopkeeper do such a work? I would more easily believe that he sold to Spielberg open crown hats wrapped in plastic, in cardboard boxes.
This also makes me think again that this was one hat that you could purchase in HJ if you bought a poet in 1981. No special block other than what was regularly used for a Poet hat in 1981.

Never head the one about the bleach. So that one is a new one for me. Yes, it appears now that the Poet was in stock at HJ. And that is what was used. Which means that the Poet in 81 was not the same block as the Poet we have come to know from HJ. When they changed sources for their hats, the blockshapes changed with the supplier. Which would explain the differences in the Raiders fedora, and the hats that followed in the other two films. Going by this new account from SS, this was not a bespoke hat at all. But a stock Poet, that somehow got a brim cut, and a ribbon change. The details of the mods, we don't have, as we have to totally discount D.L's story. Yet these mods were done, at someone's request. Someone was actually working on this hat. It appears now, to be Ford and Steven.

D.N. said she sat on the hat, Harrison sat on the hat, and they ended up with what looked like to be a well worn hat. I recall seeing a pic of her and Ford together, not on set, that dated from this time period in pre production. Is it possible, that this did occur? If so, this would explain the Raiders hat creases. If she was there for this, she probably had something to do with the crease job. Logical anyways. Plus many fabricated stories have facts laced in with the fabrications. She had to have some facts in her story. Fedora

Thanks _!

Here is what she said in an interview that is on another site.

"I mean I worked on pre-production and through the shooting at LaRochelle and then the whole company picked up and went to Tunisia and the reason I didn't go was that I had already been gone a couple of months and then my boyfriend, John Landis, proposed marriage. ...He didn't like it, I mean...movie marriages don't last because husbands and wives or girlfriends and boyfriends are separated for separated for such long lengths of time and it was really hard for us. And so, this is just an aside, a personal aside...then Monte Berman, who has since died - but he was a wonderful old guy - and he actually...I designed my wedding dress and my wedding dress was made by the people who made by the people who made the costume for Indiana Jones as a gift for my wedding. So, I actually designed my wedding dress when I was designing Indiana Jones and then I flew home and I got married."

And Steven probably is ok with her today. He worked with her in 1983 on The Twighlight Zone, which was after Raiders of course. But of course, chose another for TOD. So he must not have forgotten! Forgave but didn't forget.

But it looks like she probably did, and this doesn't contradict the info _ gave us, have some input at one time on the hat. She was around as long as the shoots in France, which put her handling the hat for at least a small amount of time. If she handled the hat, she must have worked on the hat, at least with the crease job. Fedora

Ok, I see my thoughts are just spattering on the wall unnoticed! I can take a hint.

Regard! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Maybe the fact that Raiders was supposed to take place in 1936, and Temple in 1935, SS wanted to make folks recognize they were completely different stories from different times.

Regards! Michaelson

This is exactly what I was thinking regarding the changes in style of hat from Raiders to TOD, since TOD takes place in 1935 before Raiders in Indiana Jones's realm of things. I think were getting somewhere as far as maybe the style of the Raiders hat. _, keep talking to Spielberg about this hat, I wonder if something maybe else will come up that we don't know. It is interesting though if Swales put in the dim. cut or was it someone else, who really designed this hat?? Was it Swales, Deb. S.S. & Harrison or was it a combination of people. Sounds like it could be a combination of ideas. Very interesting information thus far.

I noticed your thoughts Michaelson

IndianaChris

IndianaChris711 wrote: I noticed your thoughts Michaelson

IndianaChris

Fedora wrote: I am still somewhat puzzled though, over Deborah's real involvment with "the hat". Someone, and I have to take it to be S. S. decided on the dimensional cut(being a director with knowledge of camera angles, and such) , and had the ribbon changed out. From the stock wide Poet default ribbon, to the 39mm dark brown ribbon. They then recieved the hat open crown, going by what he told _. Now, if S.S. and Ford styled the hat, wtih the tight front crease, why did this crease style not be used in TOD? They would have known about it, especially, if they did it themselves. It's the little things that seem to throw a pebble in the gears. It seems to point to another person, being involved. Like the gal who was taking D.N's place, as someone had to.

The change in hats from Raiders to TOD to me, points back to a costumer designer. That is, a change in costume designers. Afterall, Tony was the designer in TOD and TLC, and those hats did not have the same sort of crease job done on them. Like this is what he chose, instead of the tight front crease. Why no continuity with the first hat? Seems like it would be very important. But I am trying to get some sense from all of this. Perhaps it is just impossible to do so. Bernie told me pre production was always complete chaos. This may figure into the hat story as well. But what arose from this chaos, was a pretty cool hat, regardless of whom is responsible for it! Too bad Mr. Swales has passed on. He could probably shed some light on the story. Or more light. Fedora

This really is a fascinating thread but I am at work and have only time for a quick response. First, _, thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. I, like you, like to think positively about people and would hat to think someone is making stuff up. Your point about her looking at the films success in hindsight - wishing she had done things differently makes some sense. Everyone wants credits for the winners and no one claims the failures. Although you would think when you are working on a GL/SS film there is a high chance of success and you would want to give it your full attention. But then your point about her getting married makes sense. I think you would have made a great detective because I like how you cross reference your interviews to weed out the inconsistences. Yes, if three people remember it one way and one another it makes sense to believe the three especially when a guy like HF has no vested interest in the answer right? Makes no difference to him but it would to Deborah.

Fedora - you also bring up a great point - why was the hat in the following films be so different especially if the first hat was developed by HF and SS. My thought is that the hat was done quickly (by HF and SS) who are trying to shape a hat based on what a guy at the store told them. The first hat I tried to steam I pretty much ruined so perhaps they just got it to a point they were happy enough with it. When the next film came along the new costume designer, who now had time to tweak the hat, they had a professional do it and who offered suggestions and who could make it more like the way SS wanted it (without the tight pinch etc).

The big question for me though is the Raider's hat a happy mistake or the product of much deliberation and group effort.
best
Canada

Fedora wrote: Never head the one about the bleach. So that one is a new one for me.

You're kidding me? It's from a thread you started!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17060&hilit=bleach+swales

darthjones wrote:Hey, guys! I haven't had the chance to come out here that consistently. I REALLY have the blinders on with regard to my work lately. But Swales in 1986 said that he did not do the Toht hat to my recollection. He only said that he did gray and brown Indiana Jones hats. He said that the ribbon was replaced on both (each of them at the time usually the same color as the hat) and that the Raiders hat was sprayed with some diluted bleach. He didn't say whether he did the bleach or someone else did though.

Sorry I haven't photo'd my hats over here yet.

And Steve - any of those twisters get close to you?! Looks like everything was north of you but not by more than several miles! What a storm system. Wow.

I know it was 4 years ago but I thought you would remember something like THAT about the hat... unless it came out to be an unreliable source.
Gee 4 years... time runs


More on this story came out again in 2009

darthjones wrote:In 1986 Swales did INDEED say that he cut the brims and pinched the hat in the shop for Raiders. He said that H. Ford showed up for the fitting too.

But he told me then that he shaped them all there. He also said that some very diluted bleach was sprayed on them (didn't say by who) but that the studio did most of the aging.

And he said that all of the hats were made from the stock Poet they had at the time. He demonstrated how the brim was taken down from 3 1/8" etc.

Some of the reasons I believe him are that no one really knew about HJ then. Matter of fact, I myself am the one that told Lee Keppler originally where the hats were made back in 1984! Ask him! Swales had no one bugging the @#$% out of him and he seemed to have a lot of fun that day speaking with us and answering my goofy questions. He even gave my dad a hat for free that day. No kidding.

There is some stuff he talked about that I am hazy on but I do remember this much at least.

And the hat out of which I got the address via the then LFL archivist, David Craig, was a super pinched top to bottom, bleached out hat on the greener side (funny huh, pinched/ shaped like Raiders, not reddish though but greenish ???) and not tapered. Ribbon was bleached a little bit too.

(quote from this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41119&hilit=bleach+swales&start=50 )

Who said what?

Also keep in mind that The Twilight Zone was a bunch of directors doing different segments and a co-Landis production. Thus her tie into the movie.