Club Obi Wan

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:47 pm**

_ wrote:
Hmmmm... Berman's did not lose the ToD business as costumer. They did both ToD and LC. You are drawing causal relationships between everything, and that's not the case.

Peter was blackballed because he worked for another costumer on a Bond film without telling anybody. I had discussions with both Berman and Howard back in 2000 about this. For Berman it was the last straw with a subcontractor he did not like - personally or professionally. In fact, I had to apologize to Monte and Noel because I opened a can of worms between them. I’m the person who told Monte that Peter worked on Last Crusade, and that Wested Leather was the same company as Leather Concessionaires. Before I told him this, he did not know Peter had been working for them again.

But back to the Temple of Doom? There was no jacket business to bid out. Cooper had the license and as part of this they supplied the jackets for Temple. There was no jacket work to subcontract out. The jackets were made from the patterns Neil Cooper made from the Western Costumes mock-up before Raiders was shot. No jackets were made by the staff at B&N. That is pure fiction from the mind of Peter Botwright as an attempt to discredit others and confuse you all into parting with your money on more of his jackets.

this part doesn't make sense

The jackets were made from the patterns Neil Cooper made from the Western Costumes mock-up before Raiders was shot.

They had to have made entirely new patterns. The ToD jacket is completely different.

Maybe it's something Anthony Powell wanted to be different from Raiders?

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:32 pm**

this part is exactly what I was flirting with 2 years ago or so.

the terry jacket looks extremely alot like the temple jacket. IMO.

who knows ( probably _

) that this maby is a mock up jacket from before they shot raiders which Terry then used for this scene and that it later became the jacket pattern for temple?

I just find that these two jackets almost look identical.

same pattern/cut. low yolk. collar looks the same. smaller pockets.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:48 pm**

The jacket seen being worn on horseback also looks a lot like the Bantu Wind jacket.
It was also said at one time it is a Wilson's jacket.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:51 pm**

yeah I know. I did some work on that too not long too ago. you might remember.

anyways, I just think they look alike. at least the pattern. hey! at least we can agree on that we know they all are brown.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:54 pm**

Yes I remember you made some good points that it was the Bantu Wind jacket.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:08 pm**

so basically, they made a completely different pattern.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:24 pm**

When you mention destruction of jackets in B+N inventory, is that both Raiders and ToD or just ToD?
I'm convinced the Tod jackets were Coopers, but also convinced while he may have started with his patterns made from the WC mock up, he finished with a different jacket.
He made the pockets closer in size to a real A-2 for one thing.
About buckles, the Hawaii Raider jacket also had buckles, but without prongs. TN's buckle on the Raider jacket is pretty much a duplicate in style.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:25 pm**

_ wrote:
RCSignals wrote:so basically, they made a completely different pattern.
lol! This is what makes thus place great. See, I would have read that and said "So, basically it is the same pattern, but they've refined it.

Knowing what I know about the Hawaii jacket I have to say different pattern.
But yes they did also 'refine' it LOL

along the lines that all Raiders jackets share similar basic elemental features, I agree.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:36 pm**

another that would have escaped is the jacket Sgt Hack has.

I agree that we don't see Raiders jackets in Temple of Doom.

I'd like someone to find a shot of Vic wearing his in a scene of the movie. I'm not saying he didn't, just that it must have been a scene in real motion as it isn't obvious.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:40 pm**

RCSignals wrote: I agree that we don't see Raiders jackets in Temple of Doom.

I'd like someone to find a shot of Vic wearing his in a scene of the movie. I'm not saying he didn't, just that it must have been a scene in real motion as it isn't obvious.

According to the write-up for TOD, you don't have to watch Vic to see his Raiders jacket: Ford wears it in some scenes. So there is a Raiders jacket in TOD

Regards, Geert

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:45 pm**

gwyddion wrote:
RCSignals wrote: I agree that we don't see Raiders jackets in Temple of Doom.

I'd like someone to find a shot of Vic wearing his in a scene of the movie. I'm not saying he didn't, just that it must have been a scene in real motion as it isn't obvious.
According to the write-up for TOD, you don't have to watch Vic to see his Raiders jacket: Ford wears it in some scenes. So there is a Raiders jacket in TOD

Regards, Geert

i know the write up says that. Find a scene with it though. The Raiders jackets should be easy to tell by their features....

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:09 pm**

gwyddion wrote:
RCSignals wrote: I agree that we don't see Raiders jackets in Temple of Doom.

I'd like someone to find a shot of Vic wearing his in a scene of the movie. I'm not saying he didn't, just that it must have been a scene in real motion as it isn't obvious.
According to the write-up for TOD, you don't have to watch Vic to see his Raiders jacket: Ford wears it in some scenes. So there is a Raiders jacket in TOD

Regards, Geert

Without trying to be difficult, where do we see this? What scenes do we see Ford wear a Raiders?

the terry jacket looks extremely alot like the temple jacket. IMO.

I can see these similarities as well, Holt. We have been told in the past that we're dealing with a Wilson's in these scenes. Lately, people are leaning more toward the Bantu Wind jackets being used in theses scenes.

The question has been asked before, but not answered that I've scene, why, after making the Imam's jacket, did Cooper refine his pattern to be more like the BW?

Tell me what "major differences" I missed.

To play devil's advocate, the side vents. Quite a bit of difference in those between the Temple and the Raiders.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:36 pm**

RCSignals wrote:
_ wrote:
Hmmmm... Berman's did not lose the ToD business as costumer. They did both ToD and LC. You are drawing causal relationships between everything, and that's not the case.

Peter was blackballed because he worked for another costumer on a Bond film without telling anybody. I had discussions with both Berman and Howard back in 2000 about this. For Berman it was the last straw with a subcontractor he did not like - personally or professionally. In fact, I had to apologize to Monte and Noel because I opened a can of worms between them. I’m the person who told Monte that Peter worked on Last Crusade, and that Wested Leather was the same company as Leather Concessionaires. Before I told him this, he did not know Peter had been working for them again.

But back to the Temple of Doom? There was no jacket business to bid out. Cooper had the license and as part of this they supplied the jackets for Temple. There was no jacket work to subcontract out. The jackets were made from the patterns Neil Cooper made from the Western Costumes mock-up before Raiders was shot. No jackets were made by the staff at B&N. That is pure fiction from the mind of Peter Botwright as an attempt to discredit others and confuse you all into parting with your money on more of his jackets.

this part doesn't make sense
The jackets were made from the patterns Neil Cooper made from the Western Costumes mock-up before Raiders was shot.
They had to have made entirely new patterns. The ToD jacket is completely different.

Maybe it's something Anthony Powell wanted to be different from Raiders?

Ok, I see where I went astray, in this quote from the Last Crusade write up "This problem related to an incident that had occurred just prior to Temple of Doom beginning production. It involved some issue of 'protocol' surrounding work Leather Concessionaires did on a James Bond film. Berman’s company did not win the contract for that film, and as has been related by several of those involved, Berman and Peter had a falling out at an industry function for that film".

I read "that film" to mean Temple of Doom, not the James Bond film.

Here's my rewrite for idiots (me being the idiot):
"This problem related to an incident that had occurred just prior to Temple of Doom beginning production. It involved some issue of 'protocol' surrounding work Leather Concessionaires did on a James Bond film. Berman’s company did not win the contract for that film, and as has been related by several of those involved, Berman and Peter had a falling out at an industry function for [the Bond] film".

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:37 pm**

And again, not trying to stoke a fire, but I don't believe the main page write-ups are a good source to quote after recent revelations. For example, Peter apparently used the WC mock-up as a guide for building his jacket, not a James Dean jacket pattern; it looks like it was the BW jacket used in the truck gag, not a Wilsons; and it was the BW jacket that Nadoolman aged by the pool, not one of Peter's , etc.

And this doesn't even cover the MAJOR revelation that Neil Cooper built a jacket that was apparently used in the Imam's house scenes and Hawaii.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:37 pm**

Of course, more would be revealed as new sources become available and concretely documented.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:33 pm**

crismans wrote:
gwyddion wrote:
RCSignals wrote: I agree that we don't see Raiders jackets in Temple of Doom.

I'd like someone to find a shot of Vic wearing his in a scene of the movie. I'm not saying he didn't, just that it must have been a scene in real motion as it isn't obvious.
According to the write-up for TOD, you don't have to watch Vic to see his Raiders jacket: Ford wears it in some scenes. So there is a Raiders jacket in TOD

Regards, Geert
Without trying to be difficult, where do we see this? What scenes do we see Ford wear a Raiders?

According to this thread in the archives: http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... 35&start=0

_ wrote: In addition, in the "back and fourths" of shooting in Sri Lanka, there were times when Harrison grabbed whatever jacket Vic was wearing instead of his own. This includes his stunt jacket (cooper) during Elephant riding sequences, and his Raiders jacket in the village sequences. It drove Phyllis Townshend nuts (script supervisor / continuity). So…. The NH jacket did see screen time and it was on Ford’s back…

So Vic's Raiders jacket can be seen in the village sequences.

Regards, Geert

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:26 pm**

Do you see a Raiders jacket in those scenes Geert? I don't. A Raiders jacket should be very obvious compared to a ToD jacket.

I do see Ford wearing what is plainly a ToD jacket.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:38 pm**

I think I see a raiders jacket. but not in THE village scene.

its at the end of the movie when they walk back to the village.

the jacket looks like it drapes like raiders, it has a higher yoke ( well, it looks like it) and I dont think that it is even Ford walking.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:50 pm**

that's the unclear image of Indy walking away?

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:18 pm**

yeah,

here it is.

I think it ''acts'' different. looks way more drapy. darker. and the I think I make out a high yoke line. to me it really looks liek a raiders jacket...

but then again it IS very unclear.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:20 pm**

Unless it's the night sequence when the boy with the torn manuscript comes up to Indy and you can't make the jacket out clearly (as has been hypothesized before might be where the Raiders jacket was seen), I've never seen a Raiders jacket in the village scenes.

I've forgotten where the info came from that a Raiders jacket made it on to the screen in ToD.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:23 pm**

probably _.

Posted: **Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:30 pm**

Indiana Holt wrote:probably _.

Probably. What I meant is that I've forgotten where his information came from.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:32 am**

crismans wrote:And again, not trying to stoke a fire, but I don't believe the main page write-ups are a good source to quote after recent revelations. For example, Peter apparently used the WC mock-up as a guide for building his jacket, not a James Dean jacket pattern; it looks like it was the BW jacket used in the truck gag, not a Wilsons; and it was the BW jacket that Nadoolman aged by the pool, not one of Peter's , etc.

And this doesn't even cover the MAJOR revelation that Neil Cooper built a jacket that was apparently used in the Imam's house scenes and Hawaii.

Oh, so your saying we should not be reading the main page eh? Just kidding there Crismans.

I understand the point your making there.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:50 am**

Indiana Holt wrote:yeah,

here it is.

I think it ''acts'' different. looks way more drapy. darker. and the I think I make out a high yoke line. to me it really looks liek a raiders jacket...

but then again it IS very unclear.

Just remember that this was shot at the ILM property with stand-ins, if I remember right. They may have just grabbed a costume out of the archives.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:15 am**

Indiana Holt wrote:yeah,

here it is.

I think it ''acts'' different. looks way more drapy. darker. and the I think I make out a high yoke line. to me it really looks liek a raiders jacket...

but then again it IS very unclear.

the reaason it looks different is because in this scene it was the stunt guy walking down the path, not harrison ford , they shot this when harrison was in the hospital , hence the different look.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:17 am**

_ wrote:Oh - Vic wearing his jacket? Easy. In the scene where Willie and SR disarm the room with the spikes and rush in. That's Vic she passes. We see his face. That's his jacket he's wearing. Vic is doing stand-in duty as Ford is in traction due to his back.

It should be his jacket then, when they manacle Indy and SR in the cage with the kid who describes the black sleep. All the over the shoulder shots of Indy are Vic, I've always believed, as the hair cut is different. Looks to me that shots of Ford were inserted.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:19 am**

indyclone wrote: the reaason it looks different is because in this scene it was the stunt guy walking down the path, not harrison ford , they shot this when harrison was in the hospital , hence the different look.

Nope. As stated earlier this was filmed back at the Ranch with ILMers. I believe its on one of the DVD behind the scenes and the village huts were just painted cardboard as reference for mat shots later.

The end scenes in the village, where the vegetation was lush and villagers colorfully dressed were actually shot first on location, then the village destroyed to shoot the scenes that first appear in the movie.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:21 am**

Mike wrote:
_ wrote:Oh - Vic wearing his jacket? Easy. In the scene where Willie and SR disarm the room with the spikes and rush in. That's Vic she passes. We see his face. That's his jacket he's wearing. Vic is doing stand-in duty as Ford is in traction due to his back.
It should be his jacket then, when they manacle Indy and SR in the cage with the kid who describes the black sleep. All the over the shoulder shots of Indy are Vic, I've always believed, as the hair cut is different. Looks to me that shots of Ford were inserted.

you are correct , sir , most of the shots of indy from the back are vic , they had to shoot alot around harrison while he was away in the hospital , even the shot of indy and willie and shorty running from the water is also vic , then they cut away to the full shot of harrison running its funny cause you can see the difference in the stance from vic to hharrison when they run .

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:30 pm**

Maybe someone who is good at capturing screen shots will do thoe and post them

I still don't see an obvious Raiders jacket. Could the continuity person have forced Vic to wear Ford's ToD jacket when ford was a way and Vic filled in? for much of it the jacket wasn't worn but still.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:35 pm**

_ wrote:
RCSignals wrote:another that would have escaped is the jacket Sgt Hack has.

I agree that we don't see Raiders jackets in Temple of Doom.

I'd like someone to find a shot of Vic wearing his in a scene of the movie. I'm not saying he didn't, just that it must have been a scene in real motion as it isn't obvious.
See... I don't know whether he has a jacket or just the patterns Neil made. In my conversations over the years he's referenced the patterns, but I've not heard or noticed a reference to a jacket. ......

I was meaning specifically the jacket Sgt Hack has that Cooper gave him, and apparently was an 'unused' stunt jacket. Sgt Hack used it to have the 'blue Label' jacket made. It is a very different jacket in details and would not be one of the main 'Hero' style jackets.
You probably know the one I refer to. In the context of jackets destroyed and Sgt Hack's story for it, it would be a jacket that escaped destruction.

Club Obi Wan

Differences in the TOD jacket

Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: So I'm guessing no one checks out the main site anymore?

Re: So I'm guessing no one checks out the main site anymore?

Re: So I'm guessing no one checks out the main site anymore?

Re: So I'm guessing no one checks out the main site anymore?

Re: So I'm guessing no one checks out the main site anymore?

Re: So I'm guessing no one checks out the main site anymore?

Re: So I'm guessing no one checks out the main site anymore?

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket

Re: Differences in the TOD jacket