Club Obi Wan

So here's the latest AB acquisition

Pure Beaver made in 2005 with "Cairo Hat" written under the sweatband

Unlike the first AB beaver I posted here earlier, this felt is high quality and will not taper if you run into rain or hit it with some steam from time to time.

The boxes are amazing and I recommend them to all AB owners.


http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w342 ... G_3927.jpg
http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w342 ... G_3928.jpg
http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w342 ... G_3930.jpg
http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w342 ... G_3931.jpg
http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w342 ... G_3933.jpg
http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w342 ... G_3935.jpg

Garrett, that AB looks FANTASTIC!!! Where are you finding these???

If I may ask, how many AB's do you now have?

That box does look awesome. I want to get one for each of my ABs.

Have you had an AB with poor quality felt? I've never seen one. Could it just be the run of felt? I think Steve has been using his felter from the start.

Dave

Stellar, Garrett!! You take great pics of your hats as well, showcasing the stovepipe effect. And, I second jnicktem....where the heck are you getting these? Got any you might want to unload? Nice score, my friend!!!!

David

Oh, and how tall is that crown? To me it looks just a bit taller than usual. Could be the angles though.

I only have two Adventurebilt fedoras - Both pure beaver raiders but two completely different felt manufacturers.

I bought the first one last month from Steve (see Brassy Brown Raiders with Original Block thread) - lighter colored felt than the normal AB offering and it was one of only several bodies that Steve received last year and experimented with. Upon using minimal teakettle steam this felt body tapered considerably. Needless to say I was more than disappointed after spending $140 on a product I thought was high quality.

In any case, this AB is much different and quite stellar. This fedora was purchased from a member here (Thanks Aaron!)

Specs are 5" Bashed Crown, 1 1/2" Ribbon, 2 3/4" x 2 1/2" Brim

Good lookin' hat there Garrett! I agree w/ Tenured Professor - you take great pics . Enjoy the hat in great health bro!

All the best,
Captain D

great pics and this hat ist wonderful . I want to have one so like this on this price.

Wow that is a nice hat box. Where do you get one of those?? Those are nice. I have to get me one of those. Right now I don't have anything for my hats to be in. Probably expensive to get one of those, but looks nice.

IndianaChris

I bought the first one last month from Steve (see Brassy Brown Raiders with Original Block thread) - lighter colored felt than the normal AB offering and it was one of only several bodies that Steve received last year and experimented with. Upon using minimal teakettle steam this felt body tapered considerably. Needless to say I was more than disappointed after spending $140 on a product I thought was high quality.

Yeah, I was surprised as well when you told me about the test felt hat. This body used to make that hat is from a major company, which I cannot name for obvious reasons. But it was a brand new body, and I was shocked to find that a little tea kettle steam tapered it up so much. Post a pic of it Garrett so we can all see it. I actually steamed it when styling it(purely from habit as it was not needed) and it did not taper at all. But my steam is a cooler steam than one gets from a teapot.... I don't use teapots because the heat from the stove plus the steam together has shrunk up some of the hats I bought before I started to make hats. So, I always stayed away from this sort of steaming after that. But other folks have used the stove top steaming on my own line of hats with no bad results.

I am just curious Garrett. Why did you steam a really soft felt crown to begin with? Generally on soft felts, you don't really need steam as the felt is so soft that it is generally moot to use it. Steam is more often used on a shellac crown, or a really dense felt, which that hat wasn't either. I am sure you had a reason, just not sure what that reason was. fedora

Ok, Garrett is according to an email pretty upset about this hat shrinking when he used a teapot.

I learned the hard way with a 450 dollar Optimo years ago. Then as my learning curve advanced, I found out, steaming a soft felt hat is the last thing one needs to do. A soft felt does not need steam. Just your hands.

But you can steam my own AB line, which this hat was not. I would have reblocked this hat for free, but it is at John's now. I think the next time I have a test hat, it will go in the garbage. But I do feel if he had left the hat alone and just wore it, maybe tweaking the crease with just his hands, there would never have been a problem. It was treated with water repellant, which should have made it last for awhile before it needed a reblock.

So I will sell no more test hats here. It was a nice hat when I sent it out. And I cannot be held responsible when someone steams a soft felt hat, over a stove. Most soft felt hats just won't take it. I thought that was pretty common knowledge, here. I gues not. I have never owned a new felt hat that would not taper over a heated tea kettle. Except my own line of felt, and that is why I use it, and some other hatters do too. If you put a Henry over the tea kettle it will taper as well. So, DONT DO IT PLEASE. Fedora

Sorry if this seems obvious, but can you use an elemented electric kettle that doesn't need a stove? I've used this so far and haven't noticed an taper on my Akubra (Not to say that it hasn't though)

Ian

Fedora wrote:Ok, Garrett is according to an email pretty upset about this hat shrinking when he used a teapot.

I learned the hard way with a 450 dollar Optimo years ago. Then as my learning curve advanced, I found out, steaming a soft felt hat is the last thing one needs to do. A soft felt does not need steam. Just your hands.

But you can steam my own AB line, which this hat was not. I would have reblocked this hat for free, but it is at John's now. I think the next time I have a test hat, it will go in the garbage. But I do feel if he had left the hat alone and just wore it, maybe tweaking the crease with just his hands, there would never have been a problem. It was treated with water repellant, which should have made it last for awhile before it needed a reblock.

So I will sell no more test hats here. It was a nice hat when I sent it out. And I cannot be held responsible when someone steams a soft felt hat, over a stove. Most soft felt hats just won't take it. I thought that was pretty common knowledge, here. I gues not. I have never owned a new felt hat that would not taper over a heated tea kettle. Except my own line of felt, and that is why I use it, and some other hatters do too. If you put a Henry over the tea kettle it will taper as well. So, DONT DO IT PLEASE. Fedora

Steve, I for one know that this should not be done and I am not expert. Please, continue selling the hats with test felt. Maybe just sell with a disclaimer stating that this is not YOUR felt and may shrink or taper if not handled carefully. I would happily buy one of your test hats if they would be in my size...

Dave

Ian wrote:Sorry if this seems obvious, but can you use an elemented electric kettle that doesn't need a stove? I've used this so far and haven't noticed an taper on my Akubra (Not to say that it hasn't though)

Ian

I would say that anything that releases hot - as in water thats turned to vapor due to heat - steam is a no-no.

You can understand where Steve is coming from though, taking such pride in his work that he would not put his name to what could potentially be an inferior product...

If I ever needed to use anything to manipulate a bash, then it would be a light mist with a spray bottle...but thats about it, and i have maybe only had to do this 2 or 3 times...I remember my first wool felt hat literally tapered and shrank before my eyes with a kettle's steam



Cheers

Unfortunately, I was not able to manipulate the felt to the point needed to create a proper effect (cave bash LC) so I used steam. I have owned over 160 some odd vintage hats (at the fedora lounge since 2006 and that's where most of my posts are) and they were all able to take teakettle steam without any problems and I'm talking COPIOUS amounts. Having said that, I only own a handful of modern hats and since they are all custom made, I didn't need to tweak the bashes on them. So, if it is the general rule of thumb that one should not use steam on a modern factory hat body, I would not have known that and was going off of what I knew with personal experience on over a hundred vintage hats - beaver, rabbit and blends. I also thought that the AB's were "stabilized" or put through a rigorous process to kill the felt so minimum taper will happen if any when faced with the elements or steam.

The felt being what it was on that AB is NOT Steve's fault. I simply wasn't informed of the characteristics of that particular felt and can see why he would never use that supplier. Once Penman blocks that AB back to spec, I will most likely sell it here.

Needless to say - LESSON LEARNED

DR Ulloa wrote:

Fedora wrote:Ok, Garrett is according to an email pretty upset about this hat shrinking when he used a teapot.

I learned the hard way with a 450 dollar Optimo years ago. Then as my learning curve advanced, I found out, steaming a soft felt hat is the last thing one needs to do. A soft felt does not need steam. Just your hands.

But you can steam my own AB line, which this hat was not. I would have reblocked this hat for free, but it is at John's now. I think the next time I have a test hat, it will go in the garbage. But I do feel if he had left the hat alone and just wore it, maybe tweaking the crease with just his hands, there would never have been a problem. It was treated with water repellant, which should have made it last for awhile before it needed a reblock.

So I will sell no more test hats here. It was a nice hat when I sent it out. And I cannot be held responsible when someone steams a soft felt hat, over a stove. Most soft felt hats just won't take it. I thought that was pretty common knowledge, here. I gues not. I have never owned a new felt hat that would not taper over a heated tea kettle. Except my own line of felt, and that is why I use it, and some other hatters do too. If you put a Henry over the tea kettle it will taper as well. So, DONT DO IT PLEASE. Fedora

Steve, I for one know that this should not be done and I am not expert. Please, continue selling the hats with test felt. Maybe just sell with a disclaimer stating that this is not YOUR felt and may shrink or taper if not handled carefully. I would happily buy one of your test hats if they would be in my size...

Dave

+1

IndianaChris711 wrote:Wow that is a nice hat box. Where do you get one of those?? Those are nice. I have to get me one of those. Right now I don't have anything for my hats to be in. Probably expensive to get one of those, but looks nice.

IndianaChris

http://www.sarahshatboxes.com/resultsAd ... enturebilt

scottyrocks6 wrote:

Ian wrote:Sorry if this seems obvious, but can you use an elemented electric kettle that doesn't need a stove? I've used this so far and haven't noticed an taper on my Akubra (Not to say that it hasn't though)

Ian

I would say that anything that releases hot - as in water thats turned to vapor due to heat - steam is a no-no.

Steam (from water) usually is hot assuming it is produced at sea-level atmospheric pressures.

So, unless I go into the Ionosphere, how do I steam hats then, or is this just the rule for less dense soft felt hats? Is it that the heat is not needed, just the water droplets? Is there a forum about this? I realise that this isn't the place to discuss it.

Ian

Steam (from water) usually is hot assuming it is produced at sea-level atmospheric pressures.

So, unless I go into the Ionosphere, how do I steam hats then, or is this just the rule for less dense soft felt hats? Is it that the heat is not needed, just the water droplets? Is there a forum about this? I realise that this isn't the place to discuss it.

Soft felt hats, that have no shellac and are really soft in the crowns just don't need steam. These are meant to be styled with just the hands and a good eye. I don't understand why a soft felt would need steam. I do understand how a real dense or shellac crown needs it to put in the creases though.

But if you must use steam on a soft felt, use a travel steamer, the one for clothes. The steam is cooler and you are less apt to over expose the felt to the steam. I have a hat steamer, a big contraption that has a remote water heater, so that when the steam gets to the nozzle, it is a cool steam, relatively speaking. You can hold your hand in it for a bit before you have to pull it away.

When I put the creases in the hat Garrett bought, the test hat, I did them by hand, then passed the crown through the steam just to see if the steam would shrink the felt. It was afterall, a test hat, as I was testing out the felt from this well known hat maker. I saw no shrinkage and thought, well, it looks to be fairly stable felt. The stock HJs I get in, taper when I do this to them, BEFORE I reblock them. But I saw no shrinkage on the test hat, and figured the felt was ok.

From Garrett's experience, it seems this felt isn't very stable, and not in the same ballpark as my own felt. But I knew that from just the appearance of the hat body, and also in how difficult it was to get a half way decent finish on the felt. It took alot of pouncing and never did clear up like it should have.

I do feel bad about this though, as I am not used to my hats shrinking like this one did. But, it was a test hat, and was sold as that. I was hoping he would wear it and keep me posted on how it held up over the long haul, which would have concluded my evaluation of this felt. I never ever thought it would be exposed to steam, or I would have mentioned not to do it. I have had my Akubras way back taper a little with hot steam, and I never used steam on them after that. I used water to refine the creases, and this worked great.

Garret, I will make it up to you on down the road, perhaps with a free reblock when that AB needs it. Your call my friend. Steve

Thanks for the answer to my question Steve!!

You've probably just saved a few hats' lives.

Incidentaly; Still loving my CS AB!

I've had my AB for 2 years and it's still like the very first day.

Is it common to have ABs (as any other hat -beside rabbits-) reblocked after some years of use?

(I've got 1 beaver AB and some other hare felt hats, and they don't seem to have change a bit, no sign of tapper)

I've read that reblocking a hat is good for it and helps kill the felt...if it can take it. Beaver hats like the ABs and Penmans will be better after a reblock.

Dave

I've had my AB for 2 years and it's still like the very first day.

Is it common to have ABs (as any other hat -beside rabbits-) reblocked after some years of use?

(I've got 1 beaver AB and some other hare felt hats, and they don't seem to have change a bit, no sign of tapper)

Very gratifying to know the AB is still looking good. On the reblocks it really depends upon how well the hat is taken care of, the amount of rain it sees, and honestly how good the run of felt was that was used to make your hat. I notice differences in some runs, that I attribute to perhaps a new employee that is not up to speed, but really, I don't know why some runs are better than others. A new hatter would not notice this, as it took me some years before I could see the differences. Today, they stand out like a sore thumb.

Most ABs will last the customer a few years before a reblock is needed, and then as I said, the manner in which the hat is treated figures into this. I really don't get in that many reblocks, but I have to admit some of these indeed do need a reblock because the hat has tapered on the top. This is normal with new felt, that is exposed to the elements. But many of the reblocks actually are not tapered, but the way the hats were creased morphed it into a hat with taper. I can steam these hats really well, and punch it out to open crown, and recrease it, to a non tapered hat. But, I always reblock these anyways, because this makes the hat look new again. And I want to return the hat as new looking.

Regarding steam, on my own hats, I just never use steam, even with my really dense beaver felt. I have found that my hands constantly messing with the creases suffices, plus, if I get the hat too steamy, the leather sweat may wrinkle up, as it shrinks from the water in the steam. But if I were to use steam, on my own, I would insert my 7 1/4 hat jack into the hat, to keep the sweat stretched, until the steam dried completely.

A serious hat wearer really needs a hat jack by the way. The hole in the hat will not shrink, but the sweatband will, especially if you sweat into the hat. And nothing worse than a too tight hat!

But again, on the steam issue, a soft felt hat really does not need steam, and soft hats are more apt to taper anyways with the use of steam. Steam is for really dense felt or hats with shellac added. The steam softens these hats up temporarily so you can get good creases in them. Then once the moisture dries, the creases stay put.

On all of my ABs that I make for you guys, I use alot of steam in the styling stage, mostly because it makes this stage quicker. I really don't have the time to fiddle with these hats, in the crease job, so steam shortens this up a whole lot. And of course, with my felt, the steam also adds memory to the crease job, so it goes back to this style even if you punch out the crown.

By the time I ship a hat out, it has been heated up, wetted down, and steamed many times while still on the block. I actually block my hats taller, and shrink them up while on the block, as this helps maintain the original block shape for a longer time. Sometimes when I get down to the last 1/4 inch that needs to shrink up so I get the desired crown height, it can literally take me a couple hours of repeated wetting and ironing the felt to get that last bit of shrinkage. This extra effort pays off though, in the stablility department. When felt shrinks while on the block, it is less apt to shrink once you take it off. Only a few of us do this, and I shared this with LLS and John early on. But most other hatters will not take the extra time to do this. It hurts production speed.

Now I know I just gave away one of our secrets, but that's ok. I doubt if most hatters would put this amount of time into hatmaking anyways. But Marc, John, me and LLS all know there is more to a good hat than the looks. If the looks fade away fast, it really is not what most would call a good hat. This secret is nothing new, but has been lost in time when hats went out of style.

But I would make a hat in no other way! Felt shrinks, that is what it does. This shrinking is what makes fur, "felt". If the fur did not shrink, you could not use it to make a hat body. So this shrinkage is inherit in fur felt. What a hatter wants to do, if durability is important is to try to get the shrinkage out of the felt, while still on the block. Or as much as you can. Some fur like beaver just tends to not shrink as much, once you get it off the block. It tends to felt tighter too, due to the small size of the fur fibers. Smaller than rabbit or other animals. Finer. And this is the reason we chose beaver, as we wanted our hats to last you long enough to become an old friend, yet was of such a high quality fur as to be refurbed as many times as needed until the green felt finally died. Once felt gets to a certain age, it no longer reacts to the elements, i.e. shrinkage.

I know that if I only owned two hats, one that I had made, in beaver, and another hat that was rabbit, made by whomever, the beaver would still be around long after the rabbit hat was buried. There is a good reason why beaver has always cost more, besides the fact that it is a wild animal and can't really be farmed. It has always been the most expensive fur to use in a hat because it just lasts longer. Due to the ability of beaver to felt tighter than any other fur. This tightness creates strength in the felt. It makes a very strong felt hat. And because of this, it will also keep the head dry longer in a rain. It is like comparing a loosely woven cotton fabic, to a densely woven canvas. The loosely woven cotton will leak first. So, it really is about the denseness of a fur felt. Well, I reckon I have talked enough.... Fedora

I've read that reblocking a hat is good for it and helps kill the felt...if it can take it. Beaver hats like the ABs and Penmans will be better after a reblock.

yes as beaver hats age, they just get better. They mellow with age. The reblocking speeds up the aging due to the heat used. Fedora

This one is 5 years old according to the sweatband but it doesn't look like it needs a re-block

Yeah Garrett, that is off of my old block, my original one. A caricature no doubt of the Indy fedora. But hey, at the time I created this block, it was such a vast improvement over the tapered hats of that time frame. And this alone sold alot of them. Today, I can see where this block was top heavy, but it was a straight sided hat! This is a common mistake made by new Indy hatters. We over emphasize aspects of the Raiders fedora. And then as time passes and you get better, you start to change your blocks, to take out the caricatures. At least I did. I think you have to have a real passion about this one hat in order to keep working on the blocks you use. No one to my knowledge has ever nailed this hat on their first try. It might look good from the front, but loses accuracy on a 360 view. And all I think are guilty of the caricatures at least at the outset.

LLS has tweaked his own blocks and he is real excited about it. Supposed to post a pictorial of his new work here this weekend. I can't wait!!! The guy has a superior eye, IMO. And feels he has stumbled onto an even better block than he is using now. It's a compulsion with some of us. He has worked on this block for a couple years now, and when you do it yourself, with sander in hand, it is indeed work. Gotta be passionate to put so much time into one blockshape. But once the bug bites you, you just keep at it until you are satisfied. We are self critiquing guys really, and while many customers rave about how good a hat looks, it takes alot to satisfy us. I think we just see things others don't. Not sure.

From the looks of this hat, it has tapered zero, which is surprising even to me. Made in 05, thats bout 5 years ago. You got a keeper there, and the run of felt was excellent as the hat tells me.

I think I owe ya, and when you want that hat changed to what I use now, my Raiders block, its on the house. I can't stand a disatisfied customer, even if what I sold wasn't my felt. It's the principle of the matter that makes me feel guilty, I guess. Fedora

This hat is a treasure, indeed. Steve, do you have photos of a fedora blocked using your latest Raiders block?

Hey guys,
I just wanted step in and comment on what an amazing resource this site is, not just for the nerd-tastic Indy details, but for the wealth of information pertaining to the creation of hats and leather jackets, etc. Steve, thank you for sharing so much about your craft with us. I mean, I know you were a fan first, and then a hat-maker, but it has been really terrific to watch as you learned your craft and become somewhat of an expert on the subject. I have learned so much about hats from you, both from years of lurking and my time as a member of this board. I love this forum because I know I will always learn new things. So thank you for sharing your trade secrets...

Not to go to far off topic sice Garret open the door. Those hat boxes look like a good investment, might have to p/u one or two. Nice thing is there in my neck of the woods, about an hours drive.
Oh and the hat look awsome.
Croft

do you have photos of a fedora blocked using your latest Raiders block?

No, but I will take a few pics of one of the hats I am making today, which is a Raiders fedora. Stay tuned. Fedora

I'm no hatmaker, and I admit that have used teakettles to steam my hats, including my Henry. Luckily, I have had no problems with taper.

Reading the above posts, I was wondering whether anyone has tried using a cool air humidifier to steam a hat. They are relatively inexpensive to purchase, but I don't know whether they produce enough steam to make a moderately stiff felt more pliable.

cowboy, don't hi-jack my thread. If you want steam source recommendations then use the search function. Let's keep this thread on track - either pics of new AB raiders blocks or something relevant.

Um, Garrett, a little politeness goes a long way. No need to get snippy. But since you yourself mention steaming technique (and stream in your very first post), and it has been discussed here by you, Steve and others, it is a valid and relevant question and not really not that much of a hijack, unless you'd prefer me to clear out half the thread, including yours and Steve's comments. Additionally, your original topic alone has nothing to do with a new Raiders block, so you're now going off topic, too. There are also plenty of other threads for just showing pictures of Adventurebilts. So, should I close this one down, since the thread is all over the map and not really relevant to your original post?

Thanks, Bink. Since it's sometimes difficult to judge tone in written text, I'll assume Garrett's post came off sharper than he intended.

So as not to clutter the thread, anyone who wishes to respond to my previous posting is certainly welcome to do so via PM.

cowboy827 wrote:I'm no hatmaker, and I admit that have used teakettles to steam my hats, including my Henry. Luckily, I have had no problems with taper.

Reading the above posts, I was wondering whether anyone has tried using a cool air humidifier to steam a hat. They are relatively inexpensive to purchase, but I don't know whether they produce enough steam to make a moderately stiff felt more pliable.

I myself have never used cool air humidifier to steam a hat. I don't think I can advise you on that.I never really use steam on any hats that I make or sell. I like to work them over a period of time until they settle in.

Yeah, doubtful a cool steam would work. You do need "some" heat. A teakettle or pot generally has the heat coming up from the eye of the stove, plus the steam coming out of the kettle or pot is hot enough to cook meat. Now, some hats will do fine even with this method, but I reccommend not taking the chance on most hats. I would rather err on the safe side. Fedora

binkmeisterRick wrote:Um, Garrett, a little politeness goes a long way. No need to get snippy. But since you yourself mention steaming technique (and stream in your very first post), and it has been discussed here by you, Steve and others, it is a valid and relevant question and not really not that much of a hijack, unless you'd prefer me to clear out half the thread, including yours and Steve's comments. Additionally, your original topic alone has nothing to do with a new Raiders block, so you're now going off topic, too. There are also plenty of other threads for just showing pictures of Adventurebilts. So, should I close this one down, since the thread is all over the map and not really relevant to your original post?

I think garret just wanted to make sure he got to see Steve's new raiders block.

Nothing wrong with that, but then don't get snippy and start calling out other folks for taking the original topic off course, when the question had everything to do with the current evolution of the thread, and especially when the originator isn't himself technically on topic. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

binkmeisterRick wrote:Nothing wrong with that, but then don't get snippy and start calling out other folks for taking the original topic off course, when the question had everything to do with the current evolution of the thread, and especially when the originator isn't himself technically on topic. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

I hear you Bink. I think he just got a bit excited about Steve not seeing his post.

Fedora wrote:

Garrett wrote:I bought the first one last month from Steve (see Brassy Brown Raiders with Original Block thread) - lighter colored felt than the normal AB offering and it was one of only several bodies that Steve received last year and experimented with. Upon using minimal teakettle steam this felt body tapered considerably. Needless to say I was more than disappointed after spending $140 on a product I thought was high quality.

I think the next time I have a test hat, it will go in the garbage. But I do feel if he had left the hat alone and just wore it, maybe tweaking the crease with just his hands, there would never have been a problem. It was treated with water repellant, which should have made it last for awhile before it needed a reblock.

So I will sell no more test hats here. It was a nice hat when I sent it out. And I cannot be held responsible when someone steams a soft felt hat, over a stove. Most soft felt hats just won't take it. fedora

Noooooo! Steve, don't let this stop you from offering test hats to COW members!
I would have loved to grab this for $140. If fact if you ever run across anything in the
23 1/4 size (any color or style, not necessarily Indy) let me know...

I am waiting on a KOTCS (2 years and counting) and know it will be worth the wait. With the economy as it is, ordering back then is probably the only way I could get an AB. A test hat may be the only way I will get another.

I know at times, you mention that you should have jumped the price earlier but I hope you understand the appreciation from many, many of us that know your hats are worth much more but couldn't afford it otherwise. (and are buying to wear and enjoy and not to resell)

For all those people and myself.... Thanks!
Pete

Well, what I thought was a Raiders hat was a CS, so...but here is one using my last Raiders block. It's Marc's hat. I creased it like the the PR photo with Indy standing by the mantle in the Raven.



But here is my oldest AB, my first one, bout 5 or 6 years old, reblocked with the new block last year. It's one of my rain hats.

Creased slightly differently than the one above, but same block used.



Top of the hat looking from above. And an angle I don't think I have ever posted.



Side..


Other side..


This one has an odd brim size. 2 7/8 front and back, 2 1/2 on the sides. I generally don't use more than a quarter inch differential from front to sides, but I guess I was experimenting with this brim once upon a time.

Although this is my last attempt at replicating this Raiders fedora, with final(for now) block, I still have my straighter blocks too. With caricartures still in. Fedora

Thank you for the photos Steve. For some reason, I really like the caricature block that my current AB was made with. Just something special about it I guess. Down the road I may have you convert it into a CS similar to what knibs7 did in this thread:
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44640

Marc's...hat...is...beautiful! What an amazing looking hat. Same felt and ribbon as Mark's, I gather? Simply amazing. Please asl Marc to post a pic or two when he gets it.

Dave

Yeah Dave same felt and ribbon combo. Marc had wanted a vintage khaki, but when I went to that spool, there wasn't enough left for another hat! I bought that roll as a partial roll once upon a time, and apparently used up what little there was of it over the years. But had plenty of this color on the hat above.

For some reason, I really like the caricature block that my current AB was made with.

ANd that is why I kept all of my original blocks. Actually I have 3 sets of Raiders blocks. The original, the later tweaked ones, and my last one. Wait, make that 4 sets of Raider blocks. I have a set of LLS's as well. LLS was kind enough to turn my own sized block into what he came up with, and I bought a set of blanks and made a complete set in his work. So, I figure one of these will please most everyone. I will probably end up with 5 sets eventually. LLS is working on tweaking his own set as we speak, and if I see something l like better....I am not too proud to copy what I see on his! But, credit is always given when I do copy. I always give credit where credit is due.

Way back I started from scratch, when I tried to replicate the Raiders fedora blockshape. And this is a great way to get into Indy hats IMO. You learn so much about blocks, and what a different radius will do, or not do. And where the breaking points count, etc. And seldom do guys that start like this keep their status quo. We are always changing something, although I ran out of energy in the last couple of years to do any tweaks. But LLS is carrying the torch, he is younger, more energetic. And still has that compulsive passion to take this farther. Neither one of us was ever totally satisfied with what we had done. But I think we see things others don't see. And it bothers us.

At one time, early on, I really thought I had this blockshape nailed. The years and the scutiny of the film hat tells me differently. To date, I don't think a single soul has really nailed that blockshape. Close? Sure, but some of us are after complete perfection, and are hindered by only being able to see this hat on film. If I had a real deal pristine Raiders fedora from the film, I could replicte it perfectly. But, I don't have that, none do. And this is a huge variable! Huge. LLS basically is trying to replicate a vintage HJ that I used to own, that looked closer to what we see on film than any other HJ we have seen. When he made his first block, he "assumed" some changes had occured in this blockshape over time, and added those back. He is now taking those changes out, and is replicating exactly what that HJ had in blockshape, and from his call this week, he seems pretty elated about his new efforts. I am waiting patiently for his next new post here in which he will unveil his new work. And if I like what I see, as I said, I have no qualms about copying. If I ever get the time, which looks doubtful. He took all sorts of pics of that hat, even in the silhoutte, shadows. And I still have pics of it somewhere on a cd. We both feel this was the correct block used. He did from the get go, but I was somewhat hesitant, only because of the habit of old hats to lose some of the original blockshape over time. I have since changed my mind on that issue though. Some do, and some don't.

What really drove this home to me was the Raiders fedora, I posted above. The brown rain hat of mine. Hats, in my experience, once blocked with a particular blockshape, seem to always remember the original block used. No joke. So, when I reblocked the above hat last year, on the newest Raiders block, coming off the block it looked right. But, as the months passed, it is morphing back into the original blockshape used! Or worse, a combination of the first block and the last. Now, I really instill the blockshape into all of my hats. That is why it takes me so long to make just one, from start to finish. I use alot of water and heat, etc to do this. On the other hand, one can take a new HJ or Christy, and that original blockshape is not remembered very well by the felt. Probably because the way they are blocked, very fast. So, I can put a new blockshape into these, and it stays. My block job becomes what the hat remembers. And I know this is due to the way that me, John, Marc and LLS block our own line of hats. But this can hinder in changing a hat from its original blockshape. When I turn a Raiders fedora into a CS, or vice versa, as the months go by, the hat starts to revert to the original blockshape, some more than others. So there is a down side to changing a block shape on an AB, or an LLS, or John's. Seldom does it seem to last! Especially if you are changing the shape in a big way, like from a CS to a Raiders, or vice versa. In this scenerio a change from a CS to a Raiders will tend to take on the new shape better, over time, because the Raiders block is not a full as the CS. So, it shrinks down, to its new shape and the shrinkage aids it in not returning to a fuller crown. But a Raiders to a CS, in my experience, won't last. Because the felt was shrunk originally to the Raiders block, which is not as full. SO, when you stretch that out, to the CS, it tends to want to shrink back to the Raiders. Bored? Fedora

Thanks for the info, Steve. Based on that I think it would be best to simply order a new beaver CS from you which I'll likely do before the end of the month budget pending.

think it would be best to simply order a new beaver CS

Yeah, at least with the CS, you get exactly what I sent to the film. And the thing about the CS fedora, is when it finally does taper a bit, it still looks good. Seems to morph into a decent Raiders fedora before the reblock. That is the good thing about real straight sided hats. And the CS is about as straight as a blockshape gets. On the sides at least. And this block was used at one time in hat history. This hat is indeed a real deal vintage blockshape that was once used for fedoras. The "Fedora" imprinted on the bottom is the givaway! So, not like we did not use a real fedora block to make this hat. But, it is unusual in so far as fedora blocks go. It is a rare blockshape that is very hard to find today. I found a partial set on ebay years ago, and then watched for years to find others to match. They never turned up, and I still look weekly. To date, zero. While I had a set made, two sets actually, I still like using the original vintage blocks, when I can. All who wear a 7 1/4 to 7 3/8s, get their hats made on Ford's block. The original vintage one. I sent hats to the film using a block that makes a size 7 and 7 1/8, along with a 7 5/8 film hat from an original block. The other sizes, I had to have replicated using Ford's vintage block as the model. Fedora

Being a 6 7/8, I can't help but wonder how close to the vintage block did the replica block get? Any photos of a 6 7/8 CS, anyone?

Steve, how do the dimensions change for a CS 6 7/8?