Club Obi Wan

After reading the Last Crusade article on the main site, there were a few things that jumped out at me. They have to do with the Lee Keppler-Wested link. According to the official account, the following is true:

1. Peter Botwright patterned the LC jackets based on a Lee Keppler-made Raiders jacket (which the latter designed based solely on close study of production photos and the film itself).

2. In the mid-to-late 90s, Peter Botrwight claims to have made the early Raiders Westeds based on "original patterns". However, this is disputed –even refuted- by some because of fact number 1.

However, the following is also true: the Lee Keppler jacket and the early Westeds are very different. For example:

Wested: Inseam attachment of side straps to back panel.
Keppler: Exterior "X box" attachment to the back panel.

Wested: Side straps connected to the lower portion of the pocket hand warmers
Keppler: Side straps higher up and a few inches from the cargo pockets theselves.

Wested: Large, more rounded cargo pockets.
Keppler: Smaller, more angular cargo pockets.

Then we delve into another area. As you can as we can see from the following pictures on the left you have a Martin Grace stunt jacket and on the right a 1999 Radiers Wested. As we can see, the above Wested jacket specs are "part and parcel" to the Martin Grace jacket.



Another shot of the same jackets (ignore the Raiders promo pic on the right)



Conclusion: Clearly, the early commercially-available Westeds in the 90s were not patterned on the Lee Keppler or Last Crusade jackets. They are based on some other patterns that are shared with the Grace jacket (and the Bantu Wind) jacket dating from production on Raiders.

If this is the case, then which pattern were the early Wested's based on? Early Radiers prototype patterns?

The Martin Grace jacket is very telling: To me it says this: Peter did have this "original pattern" even if he was specifically asked by LFL to replicate the Kepler jacket for LC production. He obviously reverted to these old patterns for his early Raiders Westeds.

Any thoughts? Ideas?
Cheers, guys!

Lee has let us know that there are some timeline inconsistencies with the write-up that need to be fixed. But I will defer to those who know more about the individual jackets than I to shed any light.

I will say from personal experience that early (late 80's/early 90's) Westeds were not consistent. Jackets I got through that time period were made different each time I got one. Not meant as a slam or detriment, just stating fact.

I'm at work and looking at my phone so the pic is small but I believe there is some dispute that the jacket you pictured is Martin Grace's jacket, in fact, that it is a screen used jacket at all.

That's some interesting info there, Mike. (It'd be great to see some images of those jackets!) The questions that stand out in my mind are:

-Why wouldn't Peter simply continue producing the same Keppler-spec jacket in his early Westeds?

-What accounts for those differences on the early Westeds?

-Lastly, why are the early Wested patterns so similar to the Martin Grace and unused stunt jackets?

One has to deduce that Peter was basing himself on patterns that had nothing to do with A. Keppler or the B. "Hero" Raiders jacket batch.

-Why wouldn't Peter simply continue producing the same Keppler-spec jacket in his early Westeds?

That is a good question. If I remember my history correctly, Lee approached Peter about making some jackets for him to sell in an arrangement that was similar to that he had with Flightsuits (this arrangement with FS was in the air at the time?). Peter sent him what was has become the infamous "bell hop" jacket. Lee then worked with Peter to revise the patterns. Of course, I hope that Lee can come in and provide more light on this or correct me where I'm off course here.

So why Peter went back to a pattern more reminiscent of what he was selling before meeting up with Lee is a good question.

*Edited to add that I see I've basically just reiterated what _ said above but I'll leave my post as it raises questions when you completely edit something out.

Thanks for the info and insight, _. According to my info -mostly past threads- those were pictures of a Butterfields auction of Martin Grace's jacket.

More to the point, the only thing I'd like to know more about is the reasons why the 90s Westeds looked like they did. Having made LC just a few years before, it's food for thought.

Also, _, what can you tell me about this pic?



It's supposed to be a David Hack jacket. Again, this jacket's appearance is very close to those early Westeds.

According to David Hack, sebas, it's a Cooper made jacket using the original pre-production WC supplied patterns, and not a Wested.

Gentlemen, in the spirit of allowing freer flow of discussion, we've stayed out of this so far....but please leave your weapons with the bartender before continuing or this one will be closed down.

Thanks!

Regards! Michaelson

Just repeating what I was told at the time it was first posted. You'll have to argue that point with David. I'm just the messenger.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:According to David Hack, sebas, it's a Cooper made jacket using the original pre-production WC supplied patterns, and not a Wested.

Thanks for the info Michaelson. I'm aware it's not a Wested, but again, the specs (the pockets, the lower sidestraps) are the same as on those early Westeds.

Would it would be fair to assume that there is some connection between them?
That the early Westeds are based on some sort pre-production or prototype patterns?

We can assume just about anything after almost 30 years, as long as they're recognized and stated as being just that....assumptions. I usually defer to those posts/discussions where the vendor and actual participants have signed off on what the history says happened. Everything else is pure conjecture.

Makes for great conversation, but it's never worth raising anyones blood pressure at the end of the day.

Regards! Michaelson

That jacket in the pic looks almost exactly like my 2001 lambskin Wested Raiders, right down to the 2-inch wide stormflap (the one on the left):
h
SD

The Butterfield auction jacket does not look like the Hawaii jacket we see in the movie, however it does look like an early Leather Concessionaires/Wested jacket (similar to Sebas jacket.
The likelihood that the Butterfield auction jacket was not a screen used Raiders jacket nor Martin Graces jacket but an early Leather Concessionaires/Wested jacket is far more plausible.

Leather Concessionaires on left, Auction on right



The auction jacket has an 'odd' distressing pattern as well, more like the Last Crusade jacket, and similar to what was applied to the 'Kurtz' jacket (which was also auctioned as 'screen used' but appears more as an early Leather Concessionaires jacket, cloth collar stand and all.)

St. Dumas wrote:That jacket in the pic looks almost exactly like my 2001 lambskin Wested Raiders, right down to the 2-inch wide stormflap (the one on the left):
h
SD

Except the Wested has the rounded 'Peter Pan' collar tips, always made me feel a 'little less manly'.............yes I've got one from that era (in the back of my closet)

sebas wrote:

Michaelson wrote:According to David Hack, sebas, it's a Cooper made jacket using the original pre-production WC supplied patterns, and not a Wested.

Thanks for the info Michaelson. I'm aware it's not a Wested, but again, the specs (the pockets, the lower sidestraps) are the same as on those early Westeds.

Would it would be fair to assume that there is some connection between them?
That the early Westeds are based on some sort pre-production or prototype patterns?

Cooper patterns?

The 'Cooper' Raider shown in that photo could well be a Cooper prototype (it doesn't look like the jacket on screen) that was kept around for possible 'expendable' stunt use but was never used. This may also be why Sgt Hack called it (was told it was by Cooper who gave it to him) an 'unused' stunt jacket. Usually stunt jackets will be the same as main jackets, tha tobviously is different from the main jacket.

No, what I said was 'original pre-production WC (Western Costume) supplied patterns', not 'Cooper pattern'.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:No, what I said was 'original pre-production WC (Western Costume) supplied patterns', not 'Cooper pattern'.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes I understand you are saying the Cooper (prototype or whatever it was) was made based on WC patterns.

But in response to Sebas question as it is a Cooper made jacket it becomes a Cooper pattern copied (if he is correct about Wested getting their early jacket pattern from it). If we follow DL's statements she was happy with the jacket pattern (of WC) but not the Wilson's made jackets.
that Cooper jacket would seem to confirm the WC pattern had a bi-swing back.

Other than that the rest of my post stands as a possible explanation for the jacket being kept around the set but remaining unused.

Ah, understood.

Regards! Michaelson

RCSignals wrote:The Butterfield auction jacket does not look like the Hawaii jacket we see in the movie, however it does look like an early Leather Concessionaires/Wested jacket (similar to Sebas jacket.
The likelihood that the Butterfield auction jacket was not a screen used Raiders jacket nor Martin Graces jacket but an early Leather Concessionaires/Wested jacket is far more plausible.

Leather Concessionaires on left, Auction on right



The auction jacket has an 'odd' distressing pattern as well, more like the Last Crusade jacket, and similar to what was applied to the 'Kurtz' jacket (which was also auctioned as 'screen used' but appears more as an early Leather Concessionaires jacket, cloth collar stand and all.)

Just for clarification, that is my jacket pictured on the left. It was made in November of '98.

My thoughts after several rounds of Butterfield jacket threads are close to RCs. Due to the many similarities between that jacket and late 90s/early 2000s, I think that the Butterfield jacket is an early LC/Wested jacket that was distressed Last Crusade style (wasn't it auctioned off around the time of LC?) and presented as a screen used jacket. I'm not saying that this was done on purpose. Those that put on the auction might have very well believed it was screen used. It has several noticeable (well to us anyway ) differences between it and the jacket "pattern" we see most on screen.

If we go by the information _ recently brought us (as I understand it), the Bantu Wind jacket was made by AD? (the name escapes me) and proved unsatisfactory. Cooper, under supervision by Spielberg, made his own version of the jacket which was then subsequently used on screen. The timing of these events seems to indicate that the Cooper made jacket was the one we see in the Imam's house and in other scenes (as the La Rochelle filming began on Monday, June 23 and ended on Friday, June 27, and the Iman's house scene was filmed on June 30).

Whose jacket/design then is the jacket Hack used as the pattern for the Blue Label jacket then? Why would Cooper make the hero jacket pattern and then make a different pattern that more closely resembles late 90s/early 2000s Westeds? Could someone who has a Blue Label (I sold mine) post a picture of the back of the jacket? This might shed some light. In particular, I would be interested to see the yoke.

...or as my high school physics teacher used to say....'you're lookin' at rabbits and seeing bears'.

_ wrote:On the blue label? .......…

'M' says it is made using the Western Costumes pattern, (which is not the final jacket pattern used for the movie). Is that your understanding as well?

The subsequent jacket you mention made by Neil is a different pattern, the one we see throughout the movie (Bantu Wind jacket excepted). Correct?

St. Dumas wrote:That jacket in the pic looks almost exactly like my 2001 lambskin Wested Raiders, right down to the 2-inch wide stormflap (the one on the left):
h
SD

I'm seeing the same thing as SD here (if I'm understanding him correctly). I know that Hack would never purposefully try to mislead us here, but, to my eyes the jacket he used as the pattern for the Blue Label looks like an early Wested (even down to the leather), same as does the Butterfield's jacket.

_ wrote:Sebas,

I'm reading what you say and I look at the pictures. I'm sorry, but I think this is a case where you see a silk purse but I see a sow's ear. That Wested you show a pic of looks just like the one I wore (proudly at the time) to examine Terry Leonard's jacket. I came away disillusioned with pages of notes documenting what was wrong with the then current Wested. If you love your old Wested, then more power to you. But I see the same jacket I'd never wear again after I saw how bad it was. It's what motivated a lot of changes in the jackets we get now, and I for one am proud we were able to affect those changes.

It's not about that, _. Sure, I like my old Wested, and I do realize there's loads of innacuracies associated with it. Most jackets these days are far more SA. Having said that, this thread isn't an effort to somehow "vindicate" it. I'm just curious as to how or why the old Westeds are remiscent of those "other" lesser-known Raiders patterns. That's all.

Certainly, had Peter continued making those early Westeds with the LC Keppler pattern instead of "reverting"? to these other specs, he would have been a lot more "SA" from the get-go. I wish he would answer that question directly.

sebas wrote:......... I'm just curious as to how or why the old Westeds are remiscent of those "other" lesser-known Raiders patterns. That's all.

Certainly, had Peter continued making those early Westeds with the LC Keppler pattern instead of "reverting"? to these other specs, he would have been a lot more "SA" from the get-go. I wish he would answer that question directly.

Sebas surely you know the answer.

[MOD EDIT]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23571&p=630566#p630566

there are many more if you search.

crismans wrote:My thoughts after several rounds of Butterfield jacket threads are close to RCs. Due to the many similarities between that jacket and late 90s/early 2000s, I think that the Butterfield jacket is an early LC/Wested jacket that was distressed Last Crusade style.

I'll admit that the distressing is reminscent of Last Crusade, but it's a Raiders jacket. Here are two pictures of the same jacket (pointed out by Holt).



No press studs, and the collar is Raiders all the way.
That's what I see anyway.

Thanks for the link RC. I thought that thread was dead and gone years ago! I'll have a gander...

It's an early Leather Concessionaires/Wested jacket, the distressing is what one would expect on a Last Crusade jacket and was probably added just for the auction, just as the 'Kurtz' jacket.
Add press studs to the Butterfield auction jacket storm flap and people would be saying Last Crusade all the way.
It's certainly not a movie jacket.

RC, for the sake of not re-igniting the flames here, please refrain from quoting locked threads. Some might come in fresh to this and think an argument is starting here. So far its been (mostly) alright, but lets not make us step in "heavy handedly".

That's fine. Sebas had just said he wished Peter would 'answer that question directly'
I simply pointed out he had. Of course Sebas can just do his own search for such posts.

makes sence. I have allways thought that the imam jacket looks so incredible like a TN.

Indiana Holt wrote:makes sence. I have allways thought that the imam jacket looks so incredible like a TN.

Yes there is an old thread here of comparison photos somewhere that makes a good argument for which scenes which jackets appear in , being worn by Ford. 'Hawaii jacket vs 'striated' jacket.

i know...

I also believe many - including myself - got this and the "Sparks" jacket copy confused because they happened at the same time.

I got this confused myself at the time. It was something of an unfortunate coincidence that Tony was making the "Sparks" jacket and the Raiders I at the same time. It really confused the issue for a while, but I think the points have become clear enough over time.

From what I gather, Sparks had an early Wested (much like we've been discussing here) that he wanted Tony to copy. This was right around the same time that the screen used Raiders was delivered to Tony. I believe that Sparks ended up getting a Raiders I from Tony in addition to the copy of his Wested.

Adding to the confusion at the time was Slydini's post of his Raiders I. Tony, not knowing at the time (but I bet he sure does now! ) how fanatical we all are about the jacket details, suggested to Slydini some improvements to the jacket to make it more wearable and durable. Slydini agreed to these modifications and 001 was created. The numbering threw many people (including myself) off. 001 was NOT the first Raiders jacket Tony had made, it was the number that Slydini wanted and it was available. After the uproar, Tony understood how much we were into the details and his Raiders are now copies of the jacket he examined (not including sizing, of course) unless modifications are asked for. This is what I've gathered from my and other people's conversations with Tony about the jacket.

This perfect storm of events really confused the heck out of everyone, but, like I said, the smoke's lifted and the story is pretty clear. At this stage, I tend to agree that Cooper's jacket went with Lucas and was the jacket that Tony examined.

Until something else pops up...

I believe the Cooper either made it's way back to or never left Georges office. I believe the Cooper was what Frank delivered to Tony to copy and is covered by NDA. I also believe many - including myself - got this and the "Sparks" jacket copy confused because they happened at the same time.

Just to clarify, as more info has come to light, you now believe the Cooper made jacket went to Hawaii rather than Martin Grace's?

crismans wrote:Adding to the confusion at the time was Slydini's post of his Raiders I. Tony, not knowing at the time (but I bet he sure does now! ) how fanatical we all are about the jacket details, suggested to Slydini some improvements to the jacket to make it more wearable and durable. Slydini agreed to these modifications and 001 was created. The numbering threw many people (including myself) off. 001 was NOT the first Raiders jacket Tony had made, it was the number that Slydini wanted and it was available. After the uproar, Tony understood how much we were into the details and his Raiders are now copies of the jacket he examined (not including sizing, of course) unless modifications are asked for. This is what I've gathered from my and other people's conversations with Tony about the jacket.

This perfect storm of events really confused the heck out of everyone, but, like I said, the smoke's lifted and the story is pretty clear.

For my part, it was not only the numbering that threw me off. Further confusion was caused when it seemed to me, at least, that SA TN Raiders jackets only started appearing on COW after Indiana G stated he had requested some modifications from Tony for his own. I realise that the appearance of TN Raiders jackets at COW is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the chronology of all the Raiders jackets TN produces, but this coinciding of events still blurs things for me.

If you look back and re read all of that from the time, you will see that it was not necessary for G to have sent anything but only to have asked for an exact duplicate. In the end that is what G received. G was confused by Slydini's jacket as were many others, and even though the situation of Slydini's jacket as been explained to extreme, people ignore it and hang on to the original posting of Slydini's jacket.

G's jacket was not the first accurate duplicate of the Raider jacket made.

RCSignals wrote:If you look back and re read all of that from the time, you will see that it was not necessary for G to have sent anything but only to have asked for an exact duplicate. In the end that is what G received.

I guess my mind is stuck on this post by G, where it seemed that Tony was not familiar with the hero pocket style we all like, only those of Slydini's.

Indiana G wrote:Mr. Nowak and i went through the pocket flaps in quite some detail. the jacket that he has on hand has slydini's pocket flaps from what he described.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34025&p=495139&hilit=nowak#p495139

Michaelson wrote:We can assume just about anything after almost 30 years, as long as they're recognized and stated as being just that....assumptions. I usually defer to those posts/discussions where the vendor and actual participants have signed off on what the history says happened. Everything else is pure conjecture.

Makes for great conversation, but it's never worth raising anyones blood pressure at the end of the day.

Regards! Michaelson

As _ says, a stronger way of saying what I posted yesterday.

Regards! Michaelson

RCSignals wrote:If you look back and re read all of that from the time, you will see that it was not necessary for G to have sent anything but only to have asked for an exact duplicate. In the end that is what G received. G was confused by Slydini's jacket as were many others, and even though the situation of Slydini's jacket as been explained to extreme, people ignore it and hang on to the original posting of Slydini's jacket.

G's jacket was not the first accurate duplicate of the Raider jacket made.

Agree RC, G and I got our jackets within a week or so as I remember and basically all of the discussion involved in letting Tony know that this 'band of brothers ' was just interested in exact replicas (in our sizes) of 'the jacket that matters', warts and all and that's what he has concentrated on, unless asked specifically to alter something to customer's request...

_ wrote:Also, the less scrupulous tend to use them 'creatively' to confuse. If ankle-biters put as much effort in participating for honorable reasons... Well, fill in the blank…

_, while you're greatly revered by everyone on this forum (especially those of us that have been here for years) as an authority on the subject at hand, I have to say, when you start hammering members with a self-righteous, belittling and often sarcastic tone, not only is it insulting, it really defeats the purpose, nor is conducive, to any discussion.

No one is trying to sabotage any sort of findings or conclusions and to openly suggest that is ludicrous. If you really want to limit insight, theories and speculation on the subject to where only you few "band of brothers" can weigh in, then go for it.

I find it sad and disappointing how the atmosphere on so many threads here at COW often takes on this exclusivist (and often nasty) tone. Like I said, it's not conducive to any discussion, which is the whole point of a forum.
In any event, thanks to everyone for the feedback.
Sebas

sebas wrote: No one is trying to sabotage any sort of findings or conclusions and to openly suggest that is ludicrous.

Sadly, Sebas, this hasn't always been the case, as I'm sure you may have seen in past threads. Not everyone has an agenda, but some have had agendas on the boards before, regardless of what section you're reading. There have been countless threads since my time moderating the boards, where folks will come in just to stir waters and nothing more. It's a been sad truth and something we strive hard to prevent, hence the warnings we are forced to include in threads like this one. It does make it difficult to keep open dialogue, especially when known facts become blurred and new information does come to light.

That said, it's in everyone's best interests to remain civil and on the true topic at hand.

Satipo wrote:

RCSignals wrote:If you look back and re read all of that from the time, you will see that it was not necessary for G to have sent anything but only to have asked for an exact duplicate. In the end that is what G received.

I guess my mind is stuck on this post by G, where it seemed that Tony was not familiar with the hero pocket style we all like, only those of Slydini's.

Indiana G wrote:Mr. Nowak and i went through the pocket flaps in quite some detail. the jacket that he has on hand has slydini's pocket flaps from what he described.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34025&p=495139&hilit=nowak#p495139

G was incorrect in that post. You are concentrating on one post and taking it out of context of all of the discussion. Keep reading.
I have also talked to Tony extensively, and those pockets he put on Slydini's jacket were his own design. You know full well the story of Slydini's jacket and Tony adding details to improve it (because the original had so many mistakes in it's construction) yet you are stuck on that one post of G's.

_ wrote: Respect is what happens when one does the right things for the right reasons. One does not get respect by saying or doing things that are easy.

Uh...okay. Look, I'm not looking for "respect" nor am I trying to say or do anything that's "easy" or any of that nonensense. I'm just curious about the origins of that early Wested design and thought I was bringing up interesting discussion. Really.

I assumed you were just mistaken in your pics and timeline. But, if you feel guilty about something? Well, not my problem.

Allrighty then! Thanks again, _.

Okay, now I'm really confused. I recently found these pics of an old Leather Concessionaries jacket in an old thread:




Very interesting, because this is clearly a jacket with stadard Indy traits: i.e. Exterior back pannel side strap stitching, side strap placing a few inches from the cargo pockets. All SA.

However, the Wested 90s offering, has the opposite: Inseam side strap stitching and lower side strap placing attached to the hand warmer:





I had (wrongly) assumed that the Leather Concessionary jackets all had these (innacurate) 90s specs to them. These pics, however, show otherwise.

Question: Based on the above, what accounts for Wested's move to revise the 90s jacket specs (the inseam stitching and incorrect sidestrap placing)? They obviously had it right on the above Leather Concessionaries jacket!

Sebas, how old is the first jacket pictured, who owned or owns it?
It may have been custom specc'd. Is that specified in the thread you found it in?

It still appears to have aligned shoulder and bottom yoke seams, and it has an un-tapered (straight parallel sides) back panel.

Yep. Keep in mind, ALL Wested/Leather Consessionaires jackets were custom jackets. There were NO 'standard' off the rack made jackets until just the past couple of years, so no two jackets were EVER the same. They were just that. Custom.

Regards! Michaelson

Interesting info, guys. I dug that pic up in an older thread. I'll go back and see if I can discern its age.

Regarding mine, in 1998 I simply ordered a "Raiders authentic lamb" and sent Peter my measurements.
It came as you see above: inseam sidestrap stitching and attached to the hand wamers (much like the Hack jacket). Very un-SA. However, I never asked Peter for any special specs whatsoever.
Why he chose these, I have no idea...

'Back in the day', all he ever asked was your height and weight. All I ever asked for was to have 25 inch sleeves. Your jacket would then arrive within a few weeks.

He didn't have the crush of orders like he has now, and like Mike said on page one, none of mine were ever the same either. We didn't care. We were happy to actually own a real, honest to gosh Indy jacket. It wasn't until we had as many vendor choices and access to the kind of information and photos we have today that we see these differences from jacket to jacket.

Thing is, and just saying this as a side comment and nothing more....isn't that the charm of a custom hand made jacket? No two are alike? Just a thought.

Regards! Michaelson

To me, precision is the charm - of both fit and with the specs I request - whether it's a jacket, suits, or whatever.

I've sort of missed the point of this thread - surely there's not a huge amount of significance that can be hung on anything Wested has produced in the last 20 years because they've covered every conceivable variation in that time. I mean, a broken clock is still right twice a day. Plus, you're giving Peter a bit too much credit in the production process - it's not like he manufactures each jacket himself, or even oversees them all. I've yet to see any evidence that anything other than that was the case during the Raiders era, either.

Michaelson wrote:..........

Thing is, and just saying this as a side comment and nothing more....isn't that the charm of a custom hand made jacket? No two are alike? Just a thought.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes and no. No two jackets especially 'hand made' will be exactly the same in minutiae detail. They will however share a consistency.
.