Club Obi Wan

Ok, like the header suggest's. I have a AB beaver and I keep getting this recuring issue at the top of the pinch/bash. Now I've sent it off to be cleaned and re-blocked, it keeps coming back and I swear I only grab it by the brim or if by the pinch just by the upper area. No ware near the bash.

I've tried my hat brush, no luck. I've even tried a tooth brush, no luck.
So I've read many ah story about Naptha as a cleaner. I want to know if I were to use lightly and only in the specific areas.

?? will it change the color in these area's.
Does anyone one have any ideas as to what causing it. It does happen on both sides, the pic's below are the worst.
Here's the pic's.
W/no flash
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W/flash


Please let me know your thoughts, I'll send it back for another reblock/cleaning, I just want to know whats causing it and if naptha will help in cleaning it. I love this hat, I love all my hats.

Croft

Oh and here's a pic soon after getting it back from Fedora.
If you look hard enough, you can't see any discoloring/whatever, the fedora looks clean and of course awsome.



Croft

I'll be interested to hear.
This has happened to my Peter's Bros. hat.
I completely dipped it in naptha for a few hours.
The hat looked good and clean with no discoloration, but these areas remained "pebbled".
I too have no idea.

C

I don't think it needs to be cleaned to me. It looks like the felt is matted down. happens some times. If you take some sand paper and hit that spot it should kick it back up. Thats what I think it might be. I'm not sure what grit sand paper to use as I didn't make the hat. I would wait for Steve to recommend what to use or better yet what to do.

Then thats what I'll do, 80 grit?, ..........................just kiddin.
I to was going to wait to see if Steve chimed in, Thanks John.

Croft

Just moving this over to the Fedora section. I thought it was a better place for it.

Dalexs

Thanks Dalexs, I orriginaly thought of putting it here, so I put a link and then you read my mind and put it here. Thanks.
Now if I can get a certain someone to give me his thoughts and what grit.

Croft

I'm no expert, but my thoughts upon first reading this was that the hat mottled. John knows his stuff, though. I'd wait for Steve because he made the hat, but if he doesn't reply in a couple of days, I'd do as John's suggested.

Dave

This could be one of two things, or a combo of both. First, it could be shellac, IF you added any to this area to make the front crease stay put. If so, apply some naptha there, work it in so the felt absorbs it, and this should make it go away. I do get hats in for reblocks that have had extra shellac added, which bleeds throught the felt, and eventually forms a crust like texture.

The other thing is I may used too fine a grit at one point in time to pounce the hat. Some runs of felt just won't take the finer grits that we use to get a real smooth finish. If this is the case, grab a piece of 150 grit and gently sand this area to bring back a longer nap.

But, I think this looks like too much shellac. I could be wrong as I would have to feel the hat. I treat all hats with a naptha based water repellent. So, that area may have been there after I pounced it, yet the naptha cleared it up. Try the naptha, zippo brand lighter fluid first. Than if it does not go away, try the 150 grit sand paper, followed up with the naptha app.

I recall clearly seeing this on your hat, and my impression was, you had added some stiffener to the top of the hat to keep creases in. But, I can't recall if I thought the top of the hat was stiffer than normal. If that is indeed stiffener, only denatured alcohol will leech it out. But the naptha may get rid of it, although perhaps not permanently. Fedora

Thanks Steve, I'll try the naptha first. I do recall you making a comment about this paticular lid having more stiffner added when orriginaly order as thats how I wanted it. Now I see why everyone likes a floppy Fedoras (like my AB rabbit) No more stiffiner for me.
I'll let you know first chance I get to experimnt.

Croft

No more stiffiner for me.

yeah, the thing is, pure beaver really does not need any shellac. But, every now and then, my feltmaker's hired hands, seem to forget these are dress bodies and NOT western bodies.

I think some lighter fluid rubbed in those areas will help out quite a bit, as that is what did. But, eventually we may need to give that hat a bath in alcohol to leech out the shellac. I have seen only a couple of hats that were this bad, thank heavens. This is not the norm is my point. Fedora

Well I finally found Zippo lighter fluid. Problem is, no where on the can does it say Naptha,
(says: Premium Lighter Fluid, clean burning improved ignition low order. back of the can has written: Contents: Light Petroleum Distillate)
I've been in contact w/Steve and his response just confused me even more (no offense Steve). He basicly said

I am pretty sure it is Bruce. But it has to say naphta on the can.....or if lighter fluid, it won't say that. But lighter fluid is the same. Steve

So seeing as it doesn't say Naptha, does this mean Zippo no longer has naptha as an ingriedent.
Or has anyone else used this newer Zippo (black can) product? I don't want to ruin one of my cherished possesion. I could try the one brand I dound that did list Naptha which was Ronso (might have that wrong, )

Any help would of course be apprecaited.

Croft

Go get the no name stuff at Walgreens. My dad smokes & gets the cheap stuff in the squeezable plastic bottles. Right on the back in small text it says "Contents: Naptha". If yours does not say it, I would play it safe & not use it.

Or has anyone else used this newer Zippo (black can) product? I don't want to ruin one of my cherished possesion.

No, I have not used it. It might not be naptha. I would make sure the can said "naptha" just to be safe. If this does not work,(it should as this is what I used to get rid of the visible "too much shellac" marks) the next step would be to try ethanol alcohol. One of these will work.

This is my first experience with extra shellac showing up later on as a visible area. Not sure why it would do so. Looks like when shellac gets some age on it, it shows up as a white area. I have a hat now in for a reblock, that the customer requested I make the hat as stiff as I could. I don't see any telltale signs of the shellac though, but it may appear when I iron the hat. If it does, I will try alcohol since your spots came back, with naptha. Fedora

Better safe than sorry, I'll return it and pick up the brand Ronsol, any one ever use this brand? I have read the back and naptha was mentioned.

If this doesn't work Steve, looks like my lid will be returning home to Papa.

Croft

The Ronsonol is your safe bet. Never realized Zippo changed is formula.



Sorry for the low quality pic, my wifes camera doesn't take close up pics very well. My bottle of Ronsonol clearly shows "Contains Naphta" on the front.

I was curious to see if there was a pure naptha product on the market and when googled, a recipe for making lemon drop candies came up and this product is mentioned.

"Naphtha- This is a petroleum product professionaly used by woodworkers as a solvent and is an ingredient in lighter fluid. If there is a paint store near you, go there and buy VM&P Naphtha (Varnish Maker's & Painters). This is pure naphtha, and the best product to use. Zippo or Ronsonol lighter fluid also may be used, but they both contain other levels of petroleum which may cause your finished product to taste like lighter fluid which can stay with you throughout your trip. It's very nasty."

So if you use this brand your hat will also be safe to eat.

Bulk
http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.com/se ... &x=58&y=11
http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/us/eng/ ... htha_r1k3/

Quart
http://www.amazon.com/Rockler-VM-P-Naph ... B001G9TGQI

Went on line tonght when I got home from work and the hardware store near by has listed that they have VM&P, Naphtha. So tommorrow I'll call and see. Man who'd thought this would be so hard.
Any prefence for method,I read on one search, a fellow COW used cheese cloth. ?
Croft

The hat I reblocked, that had added stiffener, also featured those white areas after I pounced the hat, which I do after ironing. I treated it with my water repellant treatment which is naptha based and the white ares vanished. But, now I know it will come back! Bruce, did yours just come back by just wearing the hat? How long did it take?

One thing is for certain, I will never add extra shellac to any hat again. And other hatters here, please read this thread! Croft, I am sure the naptha will temporarily get rid of the white areas, but I feel that to totally correct this is gonna require ethanol, and if you drink Everclear, this will leech out the shellac. I would pour some in a wide bowl, punch out the hat to open crown and dip just the parts of the hat affected into this stuff. You may have to let the hat dry and repeat though, as there is alot of shellac in your hat. This white stain will come out though, I am sure of that. Just gotta take some but not all of that shellac out of it. Fedora

I'll try the Naphtha first Steve, as the hardware store had to order 6 just to get my 1 qt. in.

But I'm curious though,

but I feel that to totally correct this is gonna require ethanol, and if you drink Everclear, this will leech out the shellac

What is ethanol / everclear? And were does one buy it, hardware store/paint store or the liquior store .
And if I do go the route in the future, will I have to remove the liner, cause I'd probably just send it back to you for a "major" overhaul.

But, now I know it will come back! Bruce, did yours just come back by just wearing the hat? How long did it take?

Don't know really, how long t to to show up, I know that when it came back from the last reblock it was fine, a little handling, a little weather and I started noticing them, they were there the last time I'd sent it for a reblock. Thought that'd cure it, looks liek I'll try one process first then the other, can't hurt, right =. These babys are tough.

Croft

EverClear, you would get at the liquor store, I assume you would want the really hard stuff 190 proof 95% pure grain alcohol. Ethanol alcohol is really hard to get as it is pure alcohol and is hard for an individual to come by.

Indiana Croft wrote:I'll try the Naphtha first Steve, as the hardware store had to order 6 just to get my 1 qt. in.

But I'm curious though,

but I feel that to totally correct this is gonna require ethanol, and if you drink Everclear, this will leech out the shellac

What is ethanol / everclear? And were does one buy it, hardware store/paint store or the liquior store .
And if I do go the route in the future, will I have to remove the liner, cause I'd probably just send it back to you for a "major" overhaul.


[quoteBut, now I know it will come back! Bruce, did yours just come back by just wearing the hat? How long did it take?
]

Don't know really, how long t to to show up, I know that when it came back from the last reblock it was fine, a little handling, a little weather and I started noticing them, they were there the last time I'd sent it for a reblock. Thought that'd cure it, looks liek I'll try one process first then the other, can't hurt, right =. These babys are tough.

Croft [/quote]

OK, after much searching I found Naphtha from VM&P. Today was nice out so I tackled my AB issue..... whoa now, this not only didn't do what I wanted but really shows the effect of the varnish, never realized how much was in there, looks like I'll be off in search of some Ever Clear 180 proof.

Check out the pic's.
First is just after I applied the Naphtha, you can see up in the top area of pinch some of the area, but wait to you see the 2nd pic after it was compltley dry


2nd pic.
[url][/url]

And I was wondering if the Ever Clear would solve the issue with my HJ front pinch, I just noticed this the other day, thought it was just faded.



Croft

Wowza! That looks like a crust. Does it feel like a stiff brush would brush it off? This really has be wondering now exactly what is in my water repellant that temporary cleared that shellac up? Apparently not naptha, but sure smells like naptha.

Croft, take that everclear, and pour it into a bowl, deep enough so you can actually dip just that area into the everclear. Whish it around to help leach the shellac out of the felt. If you dip that HJ in everclear, it will taper quicker than you can say jack sprat, as it dries! When I have to take shellac out of my dress bodies, when in error the feltmaker added some that should not have been added, I soak em in denatured alcohol. To leach out the shellac. The bodies will shrink up by about 20 per cent as this stuff dries. Not a problem with a raw body though. I once soaked my own HJ that I had added too much shallac to, in the alcohol, and it shrunk up to half its original size. I no longer own it. File 13 time.

If you are unsuccessful, send it to me, I can take all of it out. Might have to reblock the hat though, not sure. That felt should be getting old enough to get some stability. Fedora

I'll make some calls to the liquior stores to see who has everclear. Shrink quicker than jack spratt, huh, you funny. I'll also try a stiff brush, have one that I use on my tan army boot, has a nylon bristle, this should do the trick.

Ah the adventure of it all.

Croft

Well I went to the liquior store the other day and alas, Everclear is no longer sold in NH. Other than sending it back for a complete re-build what other ideas.

Oh and since I took the above pics, it seems to have toned down some, meaning it's not so bad, still there, but not so bad.

Croft

Other than sending it back for a complete re-build what other ideas.

Go to the drugstore, and buy a couple small bottles of ethanol alcohol. 90 per cent by volume. Not isopropyl as that is not the same stuff. In my local Rite Aid, I buy it, right next to the isopropyl. It may say grain alcohol, not sure, but shoudl say ethanol somewhere on the bottle. If you can't find that, go to a hardware store and see if you can by a small can of denatured alchohol. This is ethanol, but with methanol mixed in, so it cannot be consumed. The methanol is deady, and cannot be drank, plus the fumes are toxic. So, if you use this stuff, do it outside, and let the hat dry outside. Drying times are fairly short, unlike naptha.

Croft to me, after you used the naptha, it looked like the shellac was sitting mostly on top of the felt? If so, a stiff brush would take much of that off. Looks like it tried to leach out of the hat but stayed on the surface. But, pics don't always tell the whole story, so not sure if this happened or not.

From now on, any request of additional shellac, I will have to turn down, as we know now what can happen with extra shellac. Which is fine with me, as I won't have to buy anymore!! That stuff costs 50 bucks a gallon, but the hazardous shipping is very high, so a gallon can run you a hundred bucks or even more. For what? Ground up beetles and ethanol? Might pricey bugs there! Fedora

Thanks steve for the tips, I'll get a stiffer brush than my regular hat brush, and also look for the other product.
Ya it did seem to be sitting on the out layer of felt, so maybe a brush might do the trick. Don't know when I'll get to it, but when I do, I'll post the results.

Thanks again my friend.
Croft

OHHHKAyyyyyyyyyyyy folks, just gave the ol AB a dip in denatured alcohol, you can actully see the alchol discolored, hoping it's the shelac I'm trying to get rid of. Once it's dried some I'll dip it again, untill I no longer see the "crust" like look. Hope this solves my problem.
Once I'm done I'll post pics.

Croft

Ok, hat has had time to dry................oh oh, it's harder than ever, either the shelac is closer to the surface or the denatured alcohol reacted differently than planned. And dang if the "crust" I'm trying to be rid of is still there, but not as bad. When I went to rebash it was very stiff, very stiff. Well unless Steve thinks this is normal, I might just throw in the toweland send it back for a complete overhaul.

Croft

When I went to rebash it was very stiff, very stiff.

The alcohol activates the stiffener, that is, what was not leached out. Generally though, working the felt with your hand will soften that up quite a bit. Denatured alcohol will take it out though, might have to dip it a few times to get most of it out. I always just soak the entire hat, once I pull off ribbon, liner and sweatband. And swish the hat around so as to help wash out the shellac. What surprises me is that the application of alcohol did not clear up the shellac stain. Even if it did not take it all out. Didn't get exposed to tree sap or something like that did it? Or some other substance? I am a bit confused now as to why the alcohol did not work. Never had a problem with it, and I used to use that stuff alot to get out shellac from the factory. And what is even more odd, is I made a hat for a guy that was so stiff from the added shellac you could almost stand on it. I just got it back for a reblock, and the extra shellac never showed up as yours has. So, puzzled quite a bit on this issue with your hat. His hat had even more shellac than yours. Yet, his never showed up like yours. I had one that did, so to date, two have shown this, and the others never showed it. That is what is so puzzling about this deal. Same brand of shellac used too. Fedora

Not to worry Steve, about the mystery that is. I'll be sending it along as the ribbon might need to be replace, I sorta sinched downward so to minamize any chance of the alcohol getting on it, well some may have it's now kinda has a wrinkle in it.

So it'll show up on your door step soon enough, strip it down, work your magic and make it floppy.
Whats the current turn around time and if theres any $$$ needed for new ribbon, please don't hesitate.
Croft

Everytime I stumble across this subject title, it makes me smile....as the first thought that goes through my head is ....'definitely NOT with a lit cigarette or cigar hanging out of your mouth at the time.....'



Regard! Michaelson

Oh Michaelson, you crack me up.

Thankfully I quit smoking years ago.

Croft

Hey Steve, Kind of unrelated, but after treating a felt with naphtha or alcohol, would you recommend oiling the hat or conditioning it in any way?

Hey Steve, Kind of unrelated, but after treating a felt with naphtha or alcohol, would you recommend oiling the hat or conditioning it in any way?

Not generally Rick. But, I treat my own hats with oil, regardless, because in processing the furs, all of the natural oil is stripped out. I doubt the naptha or alcohol has any more to remove, if used to take out shellac. The oil has already been taken out in the processing.

Oil works very well as a water repellant treatment as I have mentioned before. And no doubt an oiled felt will last longer than a non oiled felt. It acts as a lubricant. So, the tight front pinch on the Raider hats if lubed, would not be as apt, over time to break the fur fibers. It seems felt hats and leather jackets are very happy to get an oil applied peroidically. Makes for longevity.

So would oil help this area of my HJ (one you reblocked so many years ago) which has a worn look to the front pinch.
And if yes what kind of oil and do I apply to the whole hay or just the area I'm trying to darken.

The HJ in question.


Croft

So would oil help this area of my HJ (one you reblocked so many years ago) which has a worn look to the front pinch.
And if yes what kind of oil and do I apply to the whole hay or just the area I'm trying to darken.

Not sure Croft. I think you might need to treat it before problems arose. I use defracturnated coconut oil. Available online at cosmetic supply sites. Odorless. I think if I were trying to darken up just that one area, I would only apply it to that area. Fedora

Thanks Fedora, I'll try it, what the hey. And speaking of hey, your still not charging for reblocks, cause I'm gonna try and send out that hat this week.

Croft

Been awhile since I posted on this thread, well I tried but in the end the hat won. It's now in the hands of it's maker, hopefully Steve can make it into the hat I should have ordered in the beging. A floppy Raider so to speak, not one w/to much stiffner cause I wanted my hats shape to stay put.

Any way hopefully Steve will chime in with his thought on this paticular lid.

Croft

He probably just turned it wrong side out and started all over again.



Regards !Michaelson

Probably right, I'm kinda hopeing he show a stage by stage showing on how he fixes this one, if any reason to show why not to ask for extra stiffner.

Croft

Just got my fedora back all nice and clean and so faf so good, keeping my fingers crossed that this doesn't return.



and one long shot.

Ah, that's the nice outfit Croft... and great hat you've got!!!

No doubt.
Great Gear in that last shot, Croft! And the fedora's lookin very nice!

Hat looks great. How's the floppiness compared to before you sent it away?

Your gear looks good, what jacket are you wearing?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Not floppy, floppy, but deffenitly not as stiff as before, I'm able to mold and shape it better. I'm really like the out come much better than the last re-block, not sure if it ever got a deep cleaning like it did this time. Steve said he had to use a whole gallon of naptha/achole to get as much out as possible.

The jacket is from Kohl's, it's dark brown w/a permanet hoodie sewn in. Kinda gives the layer look without having to put two items of clothing on. The brand is Sonama. Here's a link.
http://www.kohls.com/kohlsStore/mens/co ... Jacket.jsp I work there so I hope it's ok to share the link, it's a nice jacket. Left shoulder has a patch I sewed on from KOTCS, red & white army patch to give it some charachter. I've a Rogue squadren coming next.

And thanks, Croft