Club Obi Wan

Wow guys, I've been researching to find the correct "khaki" colored webbing to go with my authentic WWII solid brass buckles. One thing that it has to be is 100% HEAVY-DUTY wool, 1-1/4" (1.25") wide and "khaki.
There are MANY samples of stock out there that fall under these terms. The problem is the type of weave in the web and the color khaki itself. Many of us have seen dozens of pictures, ALL looking slightly different. So what is screen accurate?

I thought it a good chance that Indy might be wearing an authentic belt from WWII. So I figured a good place to start would be those fellows who re-enact war. They MUST be as picky as we our about our subject. Here's what I found out about WWII Khaki. It's really NOT khaki, it's Olive Drab No. 3 AND this shade can very amongst the manufacturers of the time.
Here's some pretty interesting reading.

http://www.atthefront.com/khaki.htm

What color is the "right" color? There are many of them...
Despite rigid government specifications, "od" or "khaki" is not one single consistent color. All WWII uniforms and equipment exhibit a wide range of color and shade variations. When millions of items are produced, perfectly matching shades, even of the same color, are rare. With regard to od 3 (olive drab no. 3), originals range from olive, to pea green, mustard-brown to olive brown. There is no single correct shade. However, the later, a light olive-brown, is generally regarded as the most desirable. That's the shade that we go to great lengths to duplicate.
Further complicating matters are the peculiarities of light effects- in fluorescent or indoor light, even the happiest of khakis often appears more clearly olive. The same item in sunlight will usually appear much more tan or brown


OK, now that makes things soooo much easier.

But my guess is, since all these re-enactors like that particular shade it probably was the most commonly found. So today's re-enactor reproduction manufacturers are more then likely trying to reproduce such a color in their belts.

So here's a list of re-enactor reproduction companies;
Where to Buy
http://3rdidreenactors.synthasite.com/where-to-buy.php

Quite a number of places carrying these belts made by Mil-Tec® out of Germany.
Their product carries the name SEMS Inc. on it.

Quotes about their belts;
"Here you go! Own this faithful look-alike of the real ones issued over 60 years ago to our brave troops during the Big Red One."

"Our reproduction of the standard GI khaki trouser belt is right on. It's the correct OD color with black tip and comes complete with the black, open faced buckle issued to all Enlisted men. It's manufacturer marked SEMS INC. 1942."

Pictures of authentic and Mil-Tec® belts.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35223822@N ... 430706242/

Very Cool! That color looks spot on to the film belt for sure.

Nice work. Great research and fantastic find!

They seem to have them at sportsmans guide...a 2 pack even...

RaidersBash wrote:Very Cool! That color looks spot on to the film belt for sure.

Nice work. Great research and fantastic find!

They seem to have them at sportsmans guide...a 2 pack even...

RB, that is where I got the one picture I put on Flickr.

ALERT • ALERT • ALERT • ALERT

Check out this COUPON page! I just got the 2 belts for $14.97 +shipping.
You have to scroll WAY down the page to find the picture of the belts.

http://www.couponconnector.com/The+Spor ... +The+Guide

That at the front website is a crack up, I wanna buy that guy a drink
There's some great info there, cheers Lantzn

Starks,
Since it was a short drive between the two, and I was thinking about getting back into WWII militaria at the time, I met the owner at the shop in Louisville once when I was stationed at Ft. Campbell. Prior to that, while I was in college, I did some WWII reenacting and since that was the early 90s and the internet was in it's infancy, you had to know someone to find anything. When I found ATF in the late 90s via the internet I wanted to see how things looked in person.

The owner is an Army veteran and at the time of my visit I was an infantry company XO so he and I ended up commiserating. Basically our conversation centered on how picky these grown men trying to recreate battles can be. They all want to have the perfect, matching-in-color gear (but it has to be inexpensive) because form them to be accurate, the GEAR is very important. Yet these same "stitch-nazis" as he called them, will have no problem with they themselves being unfit and weighing 200+ pounds and trying to portray a front-line soldier of WWII, and pretty much anyone who doesn't want to shave their beard instantly become a German mountain troop.

I have to admit I empathized with him. It was one of the main reasons I never got back into reenacting. Plus, once I became a soldier I never enjoyed playing soldier again. I know my service buddies and I never complained about feeling unauthentic as soldiers because our gear was different shades of OD, or desert as it became later. His main argument (and one I'm inclined to share) was that if it was so important to "venerate the past" via reenactment with authentic gear, yet those portraying the past chose to do so with little to no personal sacrifice (i.e. physical fitness) then it felt a little like "Halloween Goes to War". We both felt it became a sort of disservice to the past. I mean, in war people are actually killed, maimed, scarred and yet no matter how authentic the gear was, it still had a pretend, game-like feel to it.

Does he go ever the top in complaining? Maybe a bit, but then again I remember how "retentive" people were with that stuff when few people were online and I can only imagine how miserable the daily requests for matching panels of fabric have become. Besides, the stuff he is makes/sells still can actually be found and was well documented in photos, writing, etc. So to have people constantly telling him, that his greener khaki is all wrong and he's a fool for trying to pass it on, I can see why he'd behave like he does.

I find it funny, proof-reading this, that this discussion is taking place on a site where we gather to look for and discuss the most authentic gear for an action hero from a movie. Then again, no one (to my knowledge) actually died in real life making these movies. And if replicating and the characters from a movie is what we do then so be it. I don't think the serious "I'm doing a service to the public, dressing up and popping caps to teach the past" attitude exists here. We all just think this stuff is cool.

So if whip cracking floats your boat then crack away. Right?

about two years ago i bought a khaki colored web belt from the department store called "kohls" here in the states. it cost me $9.99 and it looks great the buckle is a silver color , it may not be as screen accurate , but i think it was pretty close , sadly they no longer carry the belt anymore , cause i would like to buy another one for back up sine i wear the belt everyday with jeans .

indyclone wrote:about two years ago i bought a khaki colored web belt from the department store called "kohls" here in the states. it cost me $9.99 and it looks great the buckle is a silver color , it may not be as screen accurate , but i think it was pretty close , sadly they no longer carry the belt anymore , cause i would like to buy another one for back up sine i wear the belt everyday with jeans .

Keep an eye on eBay and you can pick up a nicely aged WWII brass buckle for around $10.

Tundrarider wrote:

I'm having a hard enough time as it is with just YOU snagging these all up!!!



Michael

starks_6 wrote:That at the front website is a crack up, I wanna buy that guy a drink
There's some great info there, cheers Lantzn

If you want to see how this guy REALLY feels checkout the very last paragraph on this page.

http://www.atthefront.com/aboutus.htm

I was able to see another REALLY good close up of the web belt in Crystal Skull - again, I wish that I could post screen grabs - but towards the end, Indy is yelling to Mutt and Mac to "get to the river!" while waving his arm (right before the big fist fight w/ the Russian thug and crazy killer ant scene). If you zoom up and freeze-frame, you get a really good pic of the web belt. The khaki looks a lot like the camel shade (Yep, I know, I know, lighting may be a factor, lol). On a positive note - every time that I've purchased a Camel web belt, I've never noticed any variation in color in contrast to what appears to be such a variety in colors to "Khaki."

There are a few links to *bay camel web belts to those who'd like to see the shade. I'd post one myself here, but based on the forum rules, I'd better play it safe ...

lantzn wrote:

starks_6 wrote:That at the front website is a crack up, I wanna buy that guy a drink
There's some great info there, cheers Lantzn

If you want to see how this guy REALLY feels checkout the very last paragraph on this page.

http://www.atthefront.com/aboutus.htm

Its good to see he does have a sense of humor! And that he puts so much effort into what he provides for people and enthusiasts.

Mountaineer:

I can sympathise with him and what you have said as well. I was interested in all his references to how in editing Hollywood manages to change the colours of clothing in the film, and films like saving private ryan and the band of brothers series are so de-saturated of colour. Lets face it, in the game of collecting accurate Indy gear thats one of the biggest problems we face.
Your spot on with the comments also of these guys being so particular about a uniform but dont take in the physical or the emotional aspect of being a soldier.... especially during a time such as the second world war when if you were injured, at times medical equipment and supplies were scarce and not nearly as good as what we have today. I think it takes a little more than playing soldier and worrying soley about the difference of colour in a uniform to really respect what these guys went through for the free world.
Its good to see the passion he has put in though to accurately recreating these uniforms, and its a shame he has to argue with people over that accuracy.

Ive found some people have a poor opinion to having others having any interest in the wars. My grandfather served in the navy and my great grandfather served in the Australian 5th lighthorse regiment in Egypt during the first world war.This has left me with a great appreciation for the people who have served. It has made me quite an enthusiast in the wars and Ive had in the past, on more than one occasion, people tell me I shouldn't have such a keen interest in war as its such a terrible thing..... and I find this a little disheartening. We appreciate and respect what these men have done for us, past and present by remembering them.

Well once again I'm stung by a picture on the internet. Upon further looking, I'm thinking the khaki color we're looking for is called Summer Khaki and became very popular in WWII. The belts migrated from this khaki to olive-drab #3 and OD #7.
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_c ... ts_ww2.php

I recieved a belt from a military surplus on eBay and the 2 from Sportsman's Guide. The SG belts had the pictures that looked the correct color but are actually the lighter of the OD which is OD #3. The belt from the surplus is a biege/cream color. My authentic WWII belt which is the correct summer khaki color (is to short for me) will be my real life guage for when I find the correct color. Holding a piece we cut from the end in my hand up to a picture of Indy in IJ4 solidifies the color for me.

Indy IV Screenshot - Big #### Ants scene
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35223822@N ... 1/sizes/o/

Larger version in the link above.

Thank you for posting this screen grab for me lantzn - its an awesome shot of the web belt - perfect.

Captain D wrote:Thank you for posting this screen grab for me lantzn - its an awesome shot of the web belt - perfect.

Sure thing, it was actually one of the only decent places in the entire film where you could see it in daylight. I skimmed through the whole thing and was rather surprised.

lantzn wrote: Sure thing, it was actually one of the only decent places in the entire film where you could see it in daylight. I skimmed through the whole thing and was rather surprised.

Really?

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii12 ... 4_74-1.jpg
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii12 ... 4_58-1.jpg
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii12 ... y4-010.jpg

Here is the screen used belt



Kyle

lantzn wrote:I recieved a belt from a military surplus on eBay and the 2 from Sportsman's Guide. The SG belts had the pictures that looked the correct color but are actually the lighter of the OD which is OD #3. The belt from the surplus is a biege/cream color. My authentic WWII belt which is the correct summer khaki color (is to short for me) will be my real life guage for when I find the correct color. Holding a piece we cut from the end in my hand up to a picture of Indy in IJ4 solidifies the color for me.

I purchased one of the belts from SG a while back. As I recall, it was advertised as WWII but was clearly of more recent manufacture and I returned it. I've since received a belt worn by a Navy vet in the 1990s. The color is a tan khaki very much like the one in the post immediately above.

Good pics, Kyle! Thanks for posting these.

Yeah thanks Kyle! Where did you get that pic of the screen used belts?

Noah wrote:Yeah thanks Kyle! Where did you get that pic of the screen used belts?

I took the pics when I got a special viewing of the hero costume

Kyle

knibs7 wrote:

Noah wrote:Yeah thanks Kyle! Where did you get that pic of the screen used belts?

I took the pics when I got a special viewing of the hero costume

Kyle

Kyle do you have a higher resolution of the same image? I've noticed that the web pattern is different in just about every brand and if I can see it better I may be able to determine it's origin by examination it to all the major brands or vintage stuff. Then all I'll need to do is examine the right brands colors for the right color. Thanks

knibs7 wrote:Here is the screen used belt



Kyle

I'm collecting all samples of webbing I've come across and will post a picture with the vendors names so folks won't end up buying these belts. I just receive another from a re-enactor vendor and while getting closer the color just doesn't match.

The weaving in this webbing looks very close to the hero belt above. The color is tan and looks a lot closer in color then most of the "khaki" samples I've received.

I picked up this belt at the local surplus store (M&I surpuls in Pomona CA) 'bout 2 years ago.
It cost me a woppin' $4.95 and included a brass plated buckle.
It's hard to take a picture that acurately depicts the color, but in real life, it is identical to the color and tecture of the screen used belt in the pic that Nibs posted.

The coton weave is very sturdy and has been used as my everyday belt since I bought it.

I just picked up a solid brass buckle/tip to go with it last week for $2.95 (http://straitcity.com/display/militaryb ... itary.html ). After removing the protective coating, spraying it with amonia glass cleaner and heating it up with my zippo, it has taken on a nice patina.

kwad wrote:It's hard to take a picture that acurately depicts the color, but in real life, it is identical to the color and tecture of the screen used belt in the pic that Nibs posted.

I just picked up a solid brass buckle/tip to go with it last week for $2.95

That the tough part here, when the picture looks right I've bought the belt and in real life the color is nowhere accurate.

Can you check the tip you bought with a magnet to see if it's also solid brass? Most vendors are brass plated. Do you know if they sell tips by themselves?

swapperoooo

i don't think it's very hard at all to replace. you can either pry it open to remove or just cut the tip off. the new ones just fold over and clamp on to the end of the belt. i know this 'cos i used to work at universal studios and we wore them for wardrobe. i saw one of the wardrobe ladies put one together. they just have a big roll of belt material, cut the length and put on the buckle and tip. that's it.

lantzn wrote:

kwad wrote:It's hard to take a picture that acurately depicts the color, but in real life, it is identical to the color and tecture of the screen used belt in the pic that Nibs posted.

I just picked up a solid brass buckle/tip to go with it last week for $2.95

That the tough part here, when the picture looks right I've bought the belt and in real life the color is nowhere accurate.

Can you check the tip you bought with a magnet to see if it's also solid brass? Most vendors are brass plated. Do you know if they sell tips by themselves?

lantzn,

The tip that came with the buckle IS solid brass.
When I installed it on my belt it had a shap edge, so I filed it a little.
It was brass all the way through (also, non-magnetic).

I don't know if they sell just the tips, but for $2.95 you get a buckle and the matching tip.
They also have very reasonable (and fast) shipping.


Also, they have a section under "Fabric Belts" that has 100% cotton belts.
Under that section there is two differnt shades of Khaki available, and you can buy them with either your choice of buckle or without.

Tundrarider wrote:Hey Lantz! I just bought a couple of brass tips, one shiney and one blackened. Appear to be solid brass (non magnetic).

PM sent.

Michael

Thanks Michael I bought both of them in the links you sent.

theinterchange wrote:Since the mention of replacing the tips, I'm considering a swap out with the Buckle/tip of my unwearable Magnoli belt for the one on my Todd's. How easy is it to damage the tip in the replacement? That way I've got a general idea if I need to walk on eggshells or just yank it off.

Randy

If you're talking about removing an already installed tip and putting it on another belt, then yes proceed with caution because you can dent it.
I found the easiest way to remove it, is to use a flat head screwdriver that is the same width as that which is between the pointed prongs on the tip. There are 4 prongs per edge. Start on one side at the end (not in the middle) and lift a little at a time moving along to each gap between the prongs. Move along these gaps and each side a LITTLE at a time so nothing gets bent out of shape.
Once remove be sure to straighten out the teeth (teeth face 90 degrees from lip) because they get bent back into the webbing when installed the first time. Use a little Elmer's glue on the tip of newly cut webbing to prevent it from fraying. Put the webbing in about halfway and press down evenly between two smooth hard surfaces. I put it on my countertop and used some smooth 1x4 to press it down. You could use a vise if you're careful and the faces are smooth. If you put the webbing in too far it doesn't flatten down as flat and the tip gets caught in the inside lips of the buckle which is a real pain. This is more so true with very thick webbing.
Hope this makes sense.

snark lark park

After removing the protective coating,

what methode did you use ?

Hy Cyrano,

I used steel wool to remove the lacquer coating.
It's not as harsh as using sandpaper, but it does still leave a little bit of a swirly surface.
Just scrub at it with the steel wool (I used 000 gauge). The coating will turn white and milky at first. Once the white milky appearance is gone, so is the coating.

Thanks kwad

I think you achieved a great result
Just ordered 5 buckles and belts from straitcity
IMO the web belt is one of the most useful piece of gear in realworld