Club Obi Wan

I want to demonstrate the bash nuances on this particular hat. This is the first time I see a turned hat in the film. It becomes the first version, since this was filmed first in the studio to my understanding, so it is a "clean" version of the turned hat. What I mean by that, this is how the hat started out before being put through day to day use on the set. From this hat, I see the basics of Indy’s hat starting out that get pronounced more as the film progresses.



In the upper left pic:
1. The left eye bash travels back almost to the center of the bow. This is unique for this hat. The other bashes stop in front of the ear some even "half-way" between the eye and ear. This bash causes a certain effect I'll show later.
2. The back of the hat drops lower that the front or center. This angle is really looking up toward the hat. Not dead level. Even at this angle though, the back of the hat is clearly seen lower that the front. Note the appearance of "rverse taper" at the back of the hat. I think this is an illusion. A later picture will show this. This looks this way because of the angle of the hat to the camera.
3. The rear left "flip" of the brim is apparent. Like the fin on a Chevy. Notice the quick dive off to the back of the brim.

In the lower right pic:
1. The back left "flip" has gone away and you now have the long arc that works its way from about the eye to the brim position at the back of the hat.
2. The center bash from this angle looks shallow. Especially at the very front. It appears to match the top of the hat at the front. The deepest part is in the middle of the bash. Note the uneven depth along the right side of the center bash.
3. This leads to a unique Indy thing. The very back of the center bash. I notice a sudden drop to the bottom of the center channel. The very back of the cener bash is more of a "u" shape than a "v".



In the left pic:
1. As Indy turns, I see the transition spot for the rear flip as it approaches the front of the left brow. The brim edge become flat. to then lead around to the front of the hat.
2. The left eye bash is a long sided triangular shaped bash. I see taper toward the top and as the top os the bash makes its way to the bow, it produces an angular long side going back down to the front at the ribbon. The bash clearly starts abobe the ribbon at the front.
3. This show a clearer example at what the back of the center bash does. It has a short angled brop the the bottom of the channel. Note the small shadow on the inside of the channel just before it drops to the bottom of the channel.

In the right pic:
"A" and "B" shows how far back the left eye bash travels on this hat. Right to the back of the center knot of the bow. Right down Indy's ear. This is a "hat height" side view.
1.The back side profile of the top of the hat shows a long drop to the rear. Lower than the front. Meeting at a definite point that leads to.....
2. The very back of the hat. It drops straight down to the brim. I think this is what causes the "illusion" of reverse taper. This is the visual effect of a straight line. Note, in contrast, to the front of the hat. Note the slow rake up from the top of the ribbon to the top of the hat. Doesn't look straight up to me.



The top pic:
1. Moment of truth. The turn is revealed. The prominent right side favor of the brim.
2. The upper right eye bash is pointed , "angular". It even has a "tapered" look to it.
3. The upper left eye bash has the same look as the right side. This is due to how far the bash goes back. It produces a taper look to it also.
4. The left rear flip is evident hear. You can see how it plays out toward the front and drops off sharpl toward the back.
5. This is the transition point for the brim as it makes the flip down for the turn effect of the front. The narrower brim width is move forward due to the turn causing this spot to happen on the brim. Right and left side of the front of the hat do their own things.

The bottom pic:
1. The right "heavy" side of the brim. Pure turn. What makes this hat different than most is there is not a channel. You know the one. You see it on the Raven Bar hat, Well of Souls....
2. The dent that goes under the ribbon on other hats is not as evident here. A small shadow shows where it eventually will be. Just not now.
3. Squarish looking top of the bash. Taperish looking
4. Squarish top of the hat. Taperish looking.

This is my second favorite bash style. It clearly shows the beginning of all the little things we see in Indy's hat. It is just at the beginning stage on this hat.

LLS

Hey LLS, love the breakdown of this bash. You always deliver when it comes to details! I love this hat as well. If this is your second favorite bash, what would be your first?

Thanks. The devil's in the details. It comes down to close-enough or screen accurate. I keep striving for the latter.
My favorite bash is tied between Raven Bar and Cairo. I know. Shouldn't I have just one. "Why should I" I say. Indy didn't. My third is the exterior temple hat. I do believe each bash is achievable out of one hat. A 360 degree hat that keeps me saying "That's it!". Not "What's missing?"
LLS

And this is what Indy Gear is about!!!!!!!!!!!

I always noticed this hat had some taper to it. But, I also feel, it was caused by the lower height of the back of the hat. Most hats, when pulled down low in the back, tend to pull the sides in. Some more than others.

Good eye on the bow side crease too! I think this is the only hat that had that crease to run back that far.

But you are right. This is how the hat started out. Compare this one though to the opening scenes outside the temple. It has the front creases not going back that far, and the back is taller. I think. Which presents a sqaurer looking hat, IMO. Great work my friend. This could be used by the fans who want this particular look. Copy and paste!!! And send your money to LLS. He is doing the work for all of us. Fedora

Also notice that the top of the hat, the dome, doesn't have the camel humps as pronounced as the SOC hat. The sides of the humps were pushed in more on the temple hat. Fedora

Oh, what do you think the back height of this hat is LLS? Bout 3 3/4? How about the front? And how much hat is above the front crease. Never said I was easy! I think we will find this hat is shorter than most would want to admit. As I have said several times. But, I tend to make perceptions, other people's. Which means taller. Fedora

Fedora wrote:Also notice that the top of the hat, the dome, doesn't have the camel humps as pronounced as the SOC hat. The sides of the humps were pushed in more on the temple hat. Fedora

I think this is due to the bash style of the front. The top of the bash on each side is pushed back so far, it forms more of a straight line across the top. This plays away from the eyebrows or "camel humps". Kind of forces them out so to speak. The evidence of this is from the back view. You see how the center bash meets the top of the hat crown at the front of the hat.

LLS

Fedora wrote:Oh, what do you think the back height of this hat is LLS? Bout 3 3/4? How about the front? And how much hat is above the front crease. Never said I was easy! I think we will find this hat is shorter than most would want to admit. As I have said several times. But, I tend to make perceptions, other people's. Which means taller. Fedora

Believe it or not, the front is around 4-1/2", the center is just at 5" and the back is between 3-1/2" and 3-3/4"! This is consistent between all turned hats.

LLS

Bless you guys and your sharp, SHARP eyes and amazingly analytical brains!
MAN, you guys sure know your stuff!

Sometimes I think that you (David), Steve, Marc, John, Holt, 3thoubucks & fedoraiders could together write an entire encyclopedia JUST on "The Raiders Hat(s)!"

(Apologies if I missed another well-known Hat Expert... those gentlemen were just off the top of my head.)

Do we think that this hat, or possibly the plane hat he fiddles with in behind the scenes footage is possibly the hat from Christy's? Just wondering.............

Believe it or not, the front is around 4-1/2", the center is just at 5" and the back is between 3-1/2" and 3-3/4"! This is consistent between all turned hats.

Yep, I thought the front and back as you said was these heights. Now, one more, just for giggles. If the front is 4 1/2, that leaves about 3/4 inch of hat that lies above the 4 1/2 inch front crease. (assuming the hat was 5 1/2 open crown) I don't see 3/4 an inch of hat above the front crease, but I need more eyes so look...








What I am gettin at is this. If I use any of my blocks, make the hat 5 1/2 inches open crown, and then I crease the front down to 4 1/2, I get about 3/4 an inch of the crown sticking up and above the front crease. Which looks off to me. It is just too much and throws off the look. But, I still have 5 inches on the sides. So, perhaps this is due to the type of radius of the dome, or the domeyness of lack of it. For me to get the 4 1/2 on the front, yet still not have too much hat above the front crease, requires the open crown height to be less than 5 1/2. And at least on my blocks, I have to block em at 5 1/4, in order NOT to have too much hat above the front crease. Which drops the final creased hat down to 4 3/4 on the sides. Now, not much, but it's 1/4 an inch difference but....and yes this is detailed stuff here. Just wanted your thoughts LLS. Fedora

Here is the back of the SOC hat. To me it just looks like when compared to the inside the temple hat, someone just defined the humps by pushing out the inside of the hump to make it more defined.(at least on the right side as viewed) That is, it is bulging outward and upward instead of being flattened down. This back view has a rounded look to the top of the crown, an not angular. Also, notice how this pic makes the hat look shorter.

Do we think that this hat, or possibly the plane hat he fiddles with in behind the scenes footage is possibly the hat from Christy's? Just wondering.............

Gosh, never thought about it Oklahoma. You talking bout the TOD plane hat? Fedora

Believe it or not, the front is around 4-1/2", the center is just at 5" and the back is between 3-1/2" and 3-3/4"! This is consistent between all turned hats.

The CS hat was taller. Which most knew anyways. Front height, 4 3/4, back 4 to 4 1/4 depending upon scene, 5 inches on the sides, 5 1/2 open crown. And Bernie and Ford chose the 5 1/4 open crown version. Just comparing hats here, as to make it easier to grasp what we are talking about. Hopefully one day, someone can do a side by side with the Raider and CS, to really see the differences. No doubt if they had went with the Raider specs on the creases, the CS had would look different. And better, IMO. Fedora

I have a Raiders hat from John in beaver as well as two of your CS hats, Steve. I wouldn't mind doing a comparison. I did a comparison of the two before but that was on workmanship. I could photograph different areas and measure different heights and widths. just let me know what you would like me to stress and I can do it tomorrow.

Dave

^^ I would love to see this.

I have a Raiders hat from John in beaver as well as two of your CS hats, Steve. I wouldn't mind doing a comparison. I did a comparison of the two before but that was on workmanship. I could photograph different areas and measure different heights and widths. just let me know what you would like me to stress and I can do it tomorrow.

Thanks Dave, but I was thinking along the lines of comparing film stills of both hats from similiar angles. A chore. This would be the most useful, as it would be apples to apples, using what was filmed. Thanks. Fedora

Ah, that does make more sense. In that respect, I can't be much help. My copy of CS is on Blu-Ray and my laptop is not Blu-Ray ready so I could not possible get screen caps from CS. Hopefully someone can do this soon as I would love to see the results.

Dave

Ah, I found one of LLS's Raider fedora studies. LLS really studied this hat for a long time before he got into making them. His hard work paid off too. Dedication.



This is where LLS was studing the SOC fedora, and was determining the creased specs of this hat. I think either I, or he posted this quite awhile ago. But, it shows you how serious this guy is with the Raiders fedora. He did his homework, and did it well. Like me and Marc used to do, LLS and I can literally talk on the phone an hour discussing the nuances, that make this fedora real special. Keep em coming LLS! I really enjoy these studies, and I know it takes alot to time to do this for the folks here. And, it is enlightening as well.

A question, another one! Why is the middle ruler look to be down lower than the bottom edge of the ribbon? It looks as if it were lined up with the bottom of the ribbon, it would show the hat as shorter than 5 inches. I meant to ask you this a long time ago, and then forgot to do so. Seeing this pic again, reminded me of that. Fedora

I totally agree, these studies are extremely helpful! Your insight LLS, really shines ligtht on this hat we all love so much! Thanks for sharing!

Why does this hat look soooo good? Look at it.


Borrowed from Fedora


Borrowed from Fedora

It's uneven, lop-sided, bulging, dirty, sweaty and nasty. And yet I think, 'Now that's what a hat is supposed to look like." What's up with that?

Dangerman009 wrote:Why does this hat look soooo good? Look at it.


Borrowed from Fedora


Borrowed from Fedora

It's uneven, lop-sided, bulging, dirty, sweaty and nasty. And yet I think, 'Now that's what a hat is supposed to look like." What's up with that?

Because it screams adventure!!

You're right, it does scream adventure.

Oklahoma Jones wrote:Do we think that this hat, or possibly the plane hat he fiddles with in behind the scenes footage is possibly the hat from Christy's? Just wondering.............

Good question. Christy's in Raiders. ... Never heard that one before. I will say that the hat in my pic demonstration is the hat Nadoolman coneived and was bespoked by folks at Herbert Johnson. Question remains as to the actual person who was on set on a daily basis that actually handled the costume.

Fedora wrote:

Believe it or not, the front is around 4-1/2", the center is just at 5" and the back is between 3-1/2" and 3-3/4"! This is consistent between all turned hats.

Yep, I thought the front and back as you said was these heights. Now, one more, just for giggles. If the front is 4 1/2, that leaves about 3/4 inch of hat that lies above the 4 1/2 inch front crease. (assuming the hat was 5 1/2 open crown) I don't see 3/4 an inch of hat above the front crease, but I need more eyes so look...








What I am gettin at is this. If I use any of my blocks, make the hat 5 1/2 inches open crown, and then I crease the front down to 4 1/2, I get about 3/4 an inch of the crown sticking up and above the front crease. Which looks off to me. It is just too much and throws off the look. But, I still have 5 inches on the sides. So, perhaps this is due to the type of radius of the dome, or the domeyness of lack of it. For me to get the 4 1/2 on the front, yet still not have too much hat above the front crease, requires the open crown height to be less than 5 1/2. And at least on my blocks, I have to block em at 5 1/4, in order NOT to have too much hat above the front crease. Which drops the final creased hat down to 4 3/4 on the sides. Now, not much, but it's 1/4 an inch difference but....and yes this is detailed stuff here. Just wanted your thoughts LLS. Fedora

This is completey due to the type of dome on the top of the hat. 4-1/2" on the front is accurate and consistent with the "turned hats". Much of my block experience is due to making many...and I many many versions. Not from just replicating the Raiders block, but from wanting to know "what do diffeent elements of a block do to make a hat crown to bash a certain way". The pics you have as examples are looking straight on at the hat from eye level. The Well of Souls hat when Indy is lookin at the Cobra you see more "camel humps" on the hat because the viewing angle is looking more down the channel. Unfortunately the turned hat is twisted so it masks the look. You see more hat on each side of the center bash looking down the center bash rather that just the front. The hat looks only slightly taller on each side of the film hat from these example shots. The bash is at its deepest debth at the center of the hat. I think that answers your question.
LLS

Digger4Glory wrote:I totally agree, these studies are extremely helpful! Your insight LLS, really shines ligtht on this hat we all love so much! Thanks for sharing!

Your are very welcome. To quote Indy "Always glad to help"

LLS

Fedora wrote:Ah, I found one of LLS's Raider fedora studies. LLS really studied this hat for a long time before he got into making them. His hard work paid off too. Dedication.



This is where LLS was studing the SOC fedora, and was determining the creased specs of this hat. I think either I, or he posted this quite awhile ago. But, it shows you how serious this guy is with the Raiders fedora. He did his homework, and did it well. Like me and Marc used to do, LLS and I can literally talk on the phone an hour discussing the nuances, that make this fedora real special. Keep em coming LLS! I really enjoy these studies, and I know it takes alot to time to do this for the folks here. And, it is enlightening as well.

A question, another one! Why is the middle ruler look to be down lower than the bottom edge of the ribbon? It looks as if it were lined up with the bottom of the ribbon, it would show the hat as shorter than 5 inches. I meant to ask you this a long time ago, and then forgot to do so. Seeing this pic again, reminded me of that. Fedora

Got a hard drive dedicated to pics that would make this look tame. . I am definitely an Indy ""hat geek. Even after all this time, Steve, I, too, could talk about the nuances of this hat 'till the cows come home. . Ain't embarrassed one bit. .
The ruler sets in that spot because I was attempting to deal with "lense distortion". I, also, was projecting the top of the ribbon to guide the ruler by. The Cairo hat has its own sets of factors. You have to be careful using it study numbers by. The ribbon rides up in spots, so I figured the top of the ribbon would be a better guide. Don't get me started on tha Cairo hat. That one will have its own thread.
On a side note, look at the ruler at the front of the hat. Just like in the side view of the Temple Chasm hat, the front slopes back. It is not straight up from the ribbon. Not like the rear of the hat. The ruler in this pic runs right with the back of the hat. Things that make you go..hhmmmmm. . clue .

LLS

David, Question for you. The ribbon is 39 mm and that = to 1.5354331. A tad more than a 1 1/2 ribbon. Would that slight difference throw off the height estimate of the front, back and side creases?

BendingOak wrote:David, Question for you. The ribbon is 39 mm and that = to 1.5354331. A tad more than a 1 1/2 ribbon. Would that slight difference throw off the height estimate of the front, back and side creases?

Hey John,
Yes that is true. Back then, my goal was to put the Raiders hat into "real" numbers. There was a lot of assumptions back when I did that. Back then, it was floating around that the hat was 6" open crown, 5-3/4" open crown, 5" open crown. The simple thing to me was to work off the ribbon. I use 1-1/2" wide ribbon as a basis to figure the ratio of other aspects of the hat. Using this number, I instantly dispelled the over exaggeration of the hat. At least, dispelled to my curiosity. It came out so consistant between different hats that the results lead to the numbers that make sense and produced "real life" results. So much so, that the margin of error was going to be less that 1/4". Lots of difference between 4-1/2" and 4-1/4" in the hat world. One thing was sure, though, to measure 4-1/2", you could definitely rule out that it was 5". It just gave me a more accurate number that then allowed me to think in more precise terms. Sorry for the surveyor minded jaron.

True 39mm=1.5354331 in. That means there would be an inherent error of 0.0354331 per 1.5". Graphically that relates to being about the width of the tick mark on the ruler. Very slight. That seems to fall within being 1/8" translated to the whole height of the hat. To me that falls with a safe zone for getting the hat right. More that that and it become 1/4". I've made hats with a 1/4" more height to it and it didn't look "right" to the film hat. Remember, the numbers had to produce the "turned hat" and a "non-turned" hat (i.e exterior temple).

LLS

You did some real good detective work here. I for the most part agree with your measurements but it could be like you stated ( correct me if Im wrong) that the heights could be ( key word there "could be") an 1/8 inches higher?

Maybe that 1/8'' difference is why the Raiders hat looks 5 1/2'' in some shots, 5 1/4'' in others, and rigiht in between those two in still more shots. Or could it be that since Swales was doing all this himself on a tight schedule, his blocking was done fast and dirty and no two hats came off the block with the same height?

Dave

Thanks John.

To address both John and DR Ulloa, the 1/8" is subjective and drawn completely from my own observations. A bash can be dropped or raised 1/8" and it not make much of an overall visual difference. What I mean by that is when you have the hat in person and adjusting the front or back of the center bash, putting it on your head and saying to yourself "Wow the hat has really changed its overall look." Not really. Rather, I have found that by changing a transition point on the block itself, that is when you end up saying this to yourself.
Swales and the staff at Herbert Johnson are the only ones know how much "care" they took to produce each hat. Hard to say if that plays into the hats different appearances. Just from the observations of the other hats, i.e. Terry Leonard, Martin Grace... , the hats appear to be consistant. Indy's obviously has the most "character" put into it. The hat was turned and therefore, just like warping the brim produces the swoop, the block is being warped that results in the asymmetrical look of the hat. Examples would be like those pointed out in my pics: the different front right and left eye bashes, the different look on the back of the hat as the center bash terminates at the back of the hat. All these little things go into creating the look. The look that we Indy fans instinctively realize when we watch Temple of Doom and Last Crusade. You just don't find these fine points showing up on those hats.
The hat looking "taller" from a certain angle in one bash style then looking "shorter" from another angle with the same bash style, you can tribute that to the block itself. It is unique.

The ruler sets in that spot because I was attempting to deal with "lense distortion". I, also, was projecting the top of the ribbon to guide the ruler by.

That is what I figured it was LLS. Just wanted you to clarify it. I also figured someone might notice this, at some point, and ask anyways.

You also addressed an important point. When the hat is turned, it warps not only the brim, but the blockshape as well. Asymetrical.

And while as you said, 1/8 an inch in crown height is not very noticable, the same cannot be said for the brim. Seems like on the crown when you do move up or down 1/4 an inch, this IS noticable, by some folks. But probably not that many. We sure notice it though.

Way back when I first started looking for an Indy fedora, I saw the hat as being taller than it actually was. This changed when we replaced our very old tv. It turned out that our old tv was going bad and it distorted the images. It made hats look taller! When I threw in the VHS on the new one, the hat magically shrunk. True story.

Also, years ago, I recall Rundquist doing a study on the crown height, with a pictorial, using a film stil, and himself wearing a new Optimo he had just bought, and perhaps another popular hat of the time, a Federation. He proved the hat was shorter than most were thiinking at that time. But I think he was met with a few objections too. So, we have been talking about this for a LONG time. Yet I still get requests every now and then, to make it like Indy's. 6 inches tall! If I can't talk them out of it, I go ahead and make it 6 inches. But gosh, that is a very TALL hat! Hoss Cartright dimensions.

I watch alot of TCM. Alot of the films that were done in the late 50's and early 60's that feature dress hats, show alot of hats that are only 4 inches tall, creased. When D.N. called the Raiders hat, a tall crown, we have to consider the norm for dress hats of that era, and slightly before then. A 5 inch tall hat would be tall when compared to the 4 inch ones. Fedora

The front crease could be 4 1/2 or 4 5/8 tall or somewhere in-between. The sides would then be somewhere around 5 to 5 1/8 and the back at anywhere from 3 1/2 to 3 7/8.