Club Obi Wan

As many know, I have worked on my Raiders block off and on for several years. Now, to my eye, the back of the hat, the roll on the rear side was always a bit off on my original Raiders block. In fact, when I look at the Raiders hat, the back seems to be different from the front. What I mean is, the front looks to be more stove piped than the back, at least on the back radius. Almost as if it were two hats, two different hats. Of course, that isn't the case.

One thing that my final block does do, is to correct this rear radius, while still presenting a rather straight sided hat as viewed from the front.

Here is the back as it would appear now. I think I am closer than ever on getting the back right.




Here she is from above, and presents a fairly accurate replication of the film hat.



Of course we need to see a front shot so here it is.



And the back.




I did crush this hat, getting some bulging going on, but really did not spend much time in the crease job. Not like I fussed over it for a long time. Just a fairly quick crease job, to lend what most customers would do if they creased a hat from this block. With a bit of fussing, you could tweak it to the different scenes. This is just my generic crease job, I guess.

Way back when I first reverse engineered what I thought was the Raiders block, I tended as many do, to caricaturize the block. Making it straighter than it actually was, taller, etc. We tend to each have our own vision of this hat, and I am no different.

What really got my attention was when I viewed the Indy 4 film. Although we made those hats, to hold one in hand, doesn't seem to match up to what I see on the film. It is of course identical, but something comes into play when you film a hat, and then compare it to one in hand. They don't always look the same. I wonder just how much of this takes place with the Raiders fedora. I think if I had a real Raiders fedora, in hand, I might not even recognize it as a film hat! Unless I already knew that it was. I think this is a variable, that must be considered when replicating anything. I am not the first to mention this. Years ago, someone on Indy Fan said, that if we had a Raiders hat in hand, we might not recognize it as such. So, this isn't an original idea! I stole it.

One thing that I have noticed is as long as your Raiders block is in the ballpark, it will lend that certain look that makes a Raiders fedora, a Raiders fedora. It can actually be "off" from the original, but still close enough to pull off the look. This applies to the dome as well as the rest of the hat. In fact, the dome on your block could be flattish, or slightly domey, and still look good. If you get too much dome, you can see it in the creased hat, as being "off". Same with the front and back taper of the block, and the amount, or lack of taper on the sides. I feel you actually do need a little bit of taper on the sides. That will crease out, and still give you a straight looking crown, but a compact crown, as I see the Raiders fedora as having. It doesn't look wide on Ford's head, in fact, to me, it looks to be a size too small in some of the scenes. It doesn't have a blocky look to it, that comes from perfectly straight sides.

I realize this when comparing the CS fedora to the Raiders fedora. Knowing exactly what the CS fedora is, blockwise, helps me in seeing what the Raiders hat was, blockwise. The CS was perfectly straight up on the sides. And because of this, in certain scenes looks blocky. Not a bad thing, as many vintage hats in old films looked that way. But it is a bit different from the Raiders fedora, in that aspect.

The biggest thing I learned from working on my Raiders blocks over the years is this. What I end up with, is my own personal perception of the Raiders fedora. And your perception may not be the same as my own. I reckon I have tried every blockshape imaginable, in seeking the Raiders blockshape. Every different shaped dome, and every different degree of taper on lack of it on all parts of the hat. I know more what the Raiders fedora "is not" more than that I know "what it is".

There is one varable that some don't address, and that's the type of felt used. If you had the exact same type of felt as used in the film, you might find that your blocks won't lend the look, that it lends with a more dense beaver felt. So, Marc and I found out years ago that you have to make your block, or tweak it to suit the type of felt used. I saw this alot in the thinner felted HJs I used to reblock. My regular Raiders block that I used with beaver bodies was too accentuated, and yielded a caricaturized Raiders fedora. I actually had to have a set made, just for those thinner HJs. To take out the caricature. This block set works well with the thinner, softer felts, as long as the felt has no shellac and is not dense like beaver.

The hat above, is an HJ, reblocked by me. The block used has taper, and more taper than one might think, yet, when creased, the soft felt magically loses the taper built into the block. IF this were a beaver body, it would not do so. It would have a slight taper, in fact, too much IMO for a Raiders fedora. But with a soft felt, it works. Fedora

As always, Steve, it looks great, my friend! I am truly impressed! Beautifully rugged work!

Speaking as someone recently who had to learn this stuff the hard way, this all sounds very familiar. I started with a quite straightish block and had to add more and more taper - heaps more than I would have expected at the front and back, in order for it to match at all angles. And it's also amazing how not only the amount of dome / curving and exactly where that occurs on the block really affects specific curves when viewed from certain angles. Heaps crazier than I would have thought to get that block that works from every angle. Especially when you see angle AND/OR curve X needs to move Y degrees or whatever to match perfectly from such-and-such an angle, or whaever part of the hat;and you've got to get your head around HOW that looks post and then pre bashing in order to adjust. THEN hope it doesn't negatively affect anything else! Nerve wracking! You've almost got to be a geometry professor!

Yeah, but it is also alot of fun. Or used to me for me. I spent so much time with sander in hand over the years that I finally got tired of doing it. In that quest, I saw several different blocks that would yield a good Raiders fedora, and all were better than what we could get from the vendors at the time. These days with new attacks on the block, I have seen some amazing looking Raiders fedoras. By new folks looking to do what I did several years ago. If the same thing happens to them that happened to me, over time they will see a nuance that they missed, and go back to sanding again. The longer you look at the block and the hat it yields, the more apt you are to see an area that could be improved. Unless you get lucky and get it right in a shorter time frame than me, within your own perception of course. It would have been much easier to have a real Raider film hat, and then use it as what you are copying. Copying a hat from a film is difficult, as many have discovered. Fedora

This may sound weird, but Steve your hats are sexy. Such curvy lines, soft and smooth to the touch. Yowza! That is a beautiful hat. I NEED to get a rabbit AB!

Dave

DR Ulloa wrote:This may sound weird, but Steve your hats are sexy. Such curvy lines, soft and smooth to the touch. Yowza! That is a beautiful hat. I NEED to get a rabbit AB!

Dave

Take a step back David.

I don't have a problem. I swear!

Dave

This may sound weird, but Steve your hats are sexy. Such curvy lines, soft and smooth to the touch. Yowza! That is a beautiful hat. I NEED to get a rabbit AB!

Dave



Take a step back David.

Now that is funny! Thanks guys. While the Raiders fedora is my fav of the series, I grew tired of working on the block. But after 5 or 6 years, I reckon it was time to just quit. I had already tried everything possible, and figured I could never get closer, to my own perception of that hat. In the past, I would watch that film again, with a hat in hand, and see some small area that was off. And back to the sanding bench I would go. I would fix that, to find it threw another area off!! So, then you had to figure how to keep the area you had fixed, but change the other area that was off!

With all of this said, at the end of my own quest, my first and original block was still present in my final block. I just added taper, and changed the radius on certain parts of the block. I found out a true 360 is too blocky early on, just too straight, especially on the front and back. Sure, when you crease a hat that came from a straight front and back block, you got a reverse taper, but the Raiders fedora did not have true reverse taper. Instead, it had a bulge in back that looked to be a reverse taper. But they are different. The only hat that shows a true reverse taper in Raiders, is the one sitting on the wing of the Flying Wing. But this is due to a soft hat, sitting on its brim. You can get that, with a front and back tapered block, if the felt is really soft. It is a distortion, caused by sitting a soft hat on its brim. Fedora

I've been working on my own Raiders block also. I bought a vintage one on ebay a while back that immediatley looked pretty good to me, and after just a little sanding was fairly happy with the results.

What I thought was funny was the comment Steve made about how different something can look in life and how it looks filmed/ photographed. I loaded some photos of my block onto my computer this evening and immediately thought "Wow - does it really look like that?!"

I'm sure I will continue to tweak it, also, but I have to say that Steve is quite the inspiration in his quest to get it right. I'm also a little disturbed at how obsessed we've all become to do that, but...
It's just such a darned cool looking hat!

We have several folks who have come up with their own Raiders block, and I think they have done great jobs! I really can't tell which one is better, and I put my own in the mix, when I say this.

But I have a great idea. Someone needs to do, IMO, what I did when I first started. So what did I do? I built my first block in my own size. I then offered to block any member's hat here for free(if you wore a size 7 1/4),,(later added a 7 3/8 block, and added this size to my offers) just pay the return postage. I reblocked free hats for quite sometime, honing my skills, and getting better as time passed. Only after doing this, and I was comfortable with my skill level, did I launch my business. And then, it would not have happened, unless I had to urged into by sharptoyes. Each time he would press me into starting my own line, I always had an excuse, for not doing so. I had no sources, and had no clue as to where to find them. It wasn't so easy back in those days, for a new guy. So Sharptoyes, called me up one day, and basically said, Ok, here's your sources, for felt, sweats, and liners. And they are waiting on your call! I no longer had that excuse! And the rest is history.

A very few took me up, I guess some were waiting to see how bad I messed up their hats!! My good friend Rick 5150 trusted me, and I think sent me a hat he had washed in a machine to distress it, but it shrunk up instead. I reblocked it, and it turned out well, for that period of my experience, and he posted pics, that got the ball to rolling. I started to get more and more hats in, as time passed, and this is how I learned the craft.

To me, that is a great way to start out, although no one but me ever did it. But I think at the end of the day, it had something to so with us getting the Indy 4 gig. I had built up a bit of good will, by what I did. And that good will may have influenced a member here, suggesting to Peter B. to mention Marc and I, to Bernie, when Bernie called about the jacket, and asked Peter where could he get that darn hat?

These days, folks want to start selling their hats, right off the bat. Now, nothing wrong with that, so don't get the wrong idea here. I just think there are better ways. And in the end, I think this approach, at least going by my own success, will sell you more hats in the future. I am the only one to ever do this, and my sales prior to Indy 4 were BIG. I already had an 8 month lead time, when we got the Indy 4 contract. And orders were still coming in, at that time. I think I sold so many prior to Indy 4, mainly due to the way I started up my hatmaking biz. Folks posted pics of my reblocks, and it was such an improvement over existing vendor's hats, in looks, that it grabbed the attention of alot of people. So when I finally did offer my own line, folks were already well aware of what my reblocks looked like. My first order of felt bodies from sales of my own line, was 6 dozen bodies! I had sold 72 hats in a short time frame, like a month. From there, it only increased.

I was doing those free reblocks, to help out folks. My fellow fans. I was rewarded later on with the Indy contract. I can't help but think, what I did early on with those reblocks was karma, in a loose sense. But, I was also helping myself out at the time. I was getting to work with all different brands of felt! It was a great learning experience, because back then, getting help or tips from another real hatter was as rare as chicken teeth! So, I learned most of my skills by trial and error, first on my own huge hat collection, then later on, on the fans here. I even stated that here, during that time period, how I was helped, when thanked for the free reblocks publically, here.

So my own advice to any new hatter, is to do free reblocks for awhile. In the end, you will look back to see it was a very smart move. Plus, there are so many skills in this craft that takes time to learn. There is more to hatmaking that the basic stuff you see online. And unless you can actually work with a real hatter, the way LLS did with me, by coming over and spending a week, it will take you a couple years to learn it all. Or even if you did not get the opportunity to actually come to visit me, like John Penman, he did spend alot of hours on the phone, learning the finer points that took Marc and I years to learn. We never have posted all of the important key elements in hatmaking, here on COW, or anywhere else. We always gave a broad overview. Why is John P. making such great hats today? I wish to think, it was because he had experienced help, that both Marc and I offered to him. The same thing applies to LLS. Now, I am not extending any offer to help out anyone else, or is Marc. We have helped two folks, and I think that is enough. But I had an ulterior motive, with me helping these two guys. I see my retirement coming up fast, and I personally wanted a couple of guys to make hats the way I make em. So they could help keep my own tradition alive, and also the way that I make hats. I differ from tradtional hatmaking somewhat. Current hatmaking is a very fast process, with not enough time spent on key areas, that make for a better hat. We went back to the old way, and I know my hats, most of them, will be around long after I am gone.

So far, I have been the anomaly here, in the way that I started. But, I have been paid back, many times over. Yeah, you can reap what you sow. I would not change a thing, in the way that I got started. In fact, I think it is the best way to do so. But then again, when I started, I never planned on ever making my own line. I was doing it as a hobby, and allowed the Indy fedora fans to get a more accurate Raiders fedora, than was available at the time. And I was interested in learning the craft, not in selling hats, at the time. And if not for Sharptoyes pushing me into it, I would still be doing free reblocks. So thanks Sharptoyes, where ever you are today.And thanks to those early COW members who trusted me with their own hats that I reblocked. Without you guys, I would have never got to make the Indy 4 fedora for the film. Fedora

Wowzer! That hat blows my mind!
I think I speak for the rest of the members here when I say that we won't hold it against you if you decide to post more pics of it...even if they are outdoors in natural light, with a sexy lady holding it...or something like that.
What are the chances of getting a Henry that looks that good?

Steve,

I can say with no doubt in my mind. My hats wouldn't be half as good without all the help I have gotten from you and Marc. That and all the frankenstein hats that are in my garage. I experiment a lot. I think that is needed. I will never be able to thank the two of you guys enough. You have given this guy a 2nd chance at a productive life. After leaving the fire department because of my neck and back problems. I really thought I would be laying around watching TV all day. This is the only thing I can do with my chronic neck and back problem. I'm able to work around the problem having the hat biz. I love you guys for what you gave me and forever in your debt.

Thanks again

John

I love you guys for what you gave me and forever in your debt.

Thanks my good friend. Both Marc and I knew of your disability, but you also had that passion for hats too, which is all it took for us to offer any help we could give. I have personally told you one of the key secrets that only a few of us use in making these hats. Because, I wanted you to make the best hat out there. There is more to an Indy fedora than just the "looks" although that is very important as well. So, like ours, your hats will be around for decades, instead of ending up in file 13. Unable to be reblocked, like most of the other offerings. You make a "real hat" in the traditional sense of the word, and both Marc and I are proud that you carry on our own tradition. Mine, Marc's, yours and LLS's are untypical made hats today. We don't use any fast methods, but opt for the way hats were made at the turn of the last century, and we fuss over every hat. There is much more to hatmaking, than just getting the "look". There is a very long tradition behind the way that we make em'. And it isn't something you can learn in a short period. Not if you are doing these by hand.

And that is the reason, I suggested any new hatters start out doing free reblocks. Unless you have a collection yourself that you worked through, ruining some in the process! That is the cost of learning the trade, without the help of an experienced hatter, and a good one at that. I have seen one line , that shocked me, quite sometime ago. "you do not attach a sweatband, by just sewing through the reeded portion of the sweat!" Those are the temporary stitches! That hold the sweat in place, until you can put in the permanent ones that actually hold the sweat in the hat. Yet, this was the method used by that person. It's the guy who wanted to show you the "shortcuts". And, this worries me, for the customer. But he does not hang out here, and I sure won't divulge any names. But, the guy was supposed to have been trained by a real hatter. Those shortcuts come back to bite ya, if you want to keep selling hats.

I ruined alot of my own hats, early on. When I finally stopped doing that, I then offered free reblocks, in my size, to get to work with the various types of felt. But mostly because I just wanted to see the differences in various felts, and the differences, are vast, when you get down to it. And you can't work all the same! You have to be flexible in your techniques. As you found out.

By the time I did my first reblock for someone else, for free, I had already reblocked and made sweatbands, and bows, etc, on around 50 to 60 of my own hats. Most were new hats, but quite a few were vintage hats, that I Indy-ized. This is when I found out, vintage thats, most, were taper proof. And contained much better felt than you see in most hats today.

These days, IF I get in one of my first hats, I cringe! Not at the pounce, or the blockwork, but regarding the sweatband. It took me the longest to get a decent looking seam on the back of the sweat! But while ugly, in the stitching, none had come loose, but the appearance was pretty bad. Also, my bow work improved expoentially over time.

One thing about hatmaking is you are always learning how to do it better, and the evolution of my own hats is a great example. And only time will get anyone there, some faster than others. I was quite amazed at the hat you sent me to critique. You learned much faster than I did!! Some folks are just naturals when it comes to certain crafts. You are one of them. You certainly are doing what you were intended to do! A natural born hat maker. Regards, Steve

In the fire department I wore on my helmet the number 3495. Thats my dear friend Barney's badge number from the FDNY. I did that not only to honor him but to remind me every time I put it on. not to do anything to hurt the fire service or that I would never do anything that Barney wouldn't be proud of anything I did.

I try and do the same with hat making. I never want to do something that the two of you guys would say to yourselves. " Why they heck did we help that guy."

I will always be indebted to you and Marc. Thanks again.


On a side not. I know who you are talking about when it comes to sweatbands. I have seen it in other hat brands. Most recently in a panama hat. The sweatband moves in the hat. He gets 475 - 600 for his panama's. It just blew my mind that he did it thats way.

Wow, Steve. I'm a little shocked. Looks like your skills extend beyond hats. A missed career in politics or advertising? As this thread has clearly been triggered by me, and serves to discredit all of my efforts, I feel I have the right to respond.

For those who don't know some of the key principles of competitive differentiation in advertising and political spin, what you are basically saying is that you and only you have the "Colonel's Secret Recipe", and anyone else is only worthy of providing free reblocks. But even if I or anyone else in that position were to do so, you wouldn't share your "secrets" to anyone other than your existing two students anyway. Riiiggghhht...

What I see here is an attempt to divert the criteria by which people buy hats, and to put your strengths out there while infering that all other products are weak because they don't do things the way you do. But it's a position that has no basis in evidence that you have put forward, or that I have seen on the boards. There are hatters in Australia and New Zealand too. There are also suppliers. There are also numerous suppliers in other countries. Let's say I've found none difficult to approach or talk to to pick their brains. I even know how to sew a sweat in properly and came to my own conclusions within about 2 seconds of working with certain brands of headband that they are terrible. We all learn in different ways. So I just want to put it out there that you aren't the only one with access to knowledge.

But regarding blockshape. This is something I haven't mentioned on the boards until now, but I have -never- seen a hatter present evidence of having nailed the blockshape like I have in the last few days. I have also NEVER seen someone present photos of a hat that has come straight off the block and be able to be bashed to precisely match the Raiders hat in the way I have from all of these angles. I'd like to challenge anyone to duplicate what I've done here - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44705&start=0 , including the behind the scenes Idol Grab shots, etc. If you can't get it to do the full range, and be able to present the original shots if requested, you haven't nailed the block close enough in my eyes. Even for myself, it has been my goal to know vs. all evidence that the hat on my head is as identical as possible as that worn by Ford. In offering copies of the block and hats, it's appealing to others that want the same thing.

But it's interesting that rather than having a discussion about comparing block nuances, the discussion has been redirected to other things. Is it because presenting an exact duplication of the shape from every conceivable angle with dozens of photos to prove it is too much? That it conflicts too much with the old "every hatter has his own vision of the block" concept, and the defense mechanism kicks in, so the pitch has now changed?

I'm fine to have this discussion btw, if it has come to this. It's just sad - if a guy makes a hat out of his own passion and you try and swat them like a bug. All I ask is that you allow people to judge my block and any hats I may make for people on their own merit...

Easy there Yojimbo, all he said was in fact that it is a good practise to start doing a lot of hats in order to get a lot of practice before risking going into business. Some people might take to it off the bat, but on the whole a little practise never hurt someone, right?
BTW, every hatter has their own "secret recipe" and share of trade secrets. Heck, I guess that every craftsman has those. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that because otherwise there would not be a possibility to compete on a healthy level.

Yes I do think what you have done is remarkable, and I already applauded you so this is in no way an attack. Just a friendly request not to take things too personal.

Regards, Geert

Sorry Yojimbo, but I think you're adding a little too much conspiracy theory here. I didn't read any ill intent to Steve's postings, more like a 'do as much as you can to get your hands dirty and learn the nuances' than a 'buy mine, their's stink.'

Your response to this perceived attack sounds vaguely like other vendors who attack competition only to find that they're only alienating themselves from their client base.

Not a warning…yet…but lets try to keep the flaming down a bit.

Just to clarify, I was not trying to attack anybody. I feel I AM the competition that is being attacked (whether purposeful or not). And let me be clear, from what I have seen of Adventurebilt, Penman, and Garrsion's hat's they are all great. I would love to own an AB. It's a hat that any hat-appreciating person would aspire to own, and I count myself among them without restraint. I'm not trying to bash anybody or start a fight with people who I respect. But to be honest I felt a bit bullied.

For the record I am not into conspiracy theories. But when certain things are said that I can see amount to an undermining of what I am offering people, I feel I need to defend my own position. My post is not intended to be any more than that. I'm just a guy who only started playing around with this stuff BECAUSE I am really particular, and I don't like any sort of inference that maybe lurking beneath the surface, my work isn't up to scratch, especially when I have spent many hours/days/months on this getting it right to satisfy a market of one picky dude - myself.

Somewhere along the way it morphed into "I wonder if other people will appreciate the things I've found aren't good enough?" Like what if you could get an Akubra that is built like a tank, with really great quality felt with EXACTLY the right block shape? I do think of these things - it is these things that drive my interest in taking my personal neuroses and using them to give people a different option, that's all. But I'm digressing - I'll put that new news about that stuff in my own thread as this isn't the place for it.

I hope those reading (especially you, Steve) will understand / empathise with my perspective on the matter.

cheers, Kurt / Yojimbo.

Yojimbo Jones,

I think Steve was trying to give people like YOU some free advise. Re-blocking hats is a very good way to get your skill level to where it should be for making and selling hats. I can not tell you how many time I re-blocked, re sewn in sweatbands, ribbon and even liners before even thinking about taking orders from people. I still think of myself of learning.
Steve has been a member here in good standing and maybe he should have been given the benefit of the doubt of what he was doing before attacking him. I think you did a good job with your block. I don't think your block is 100% spot on but it is darn close. I disagree that the Akubra is bullet proof. I think it's a good bang for the buck. Not the best bang for the buck.
I myself would never come into the hat making world and place myself in line with the likes of Steve, Marc, Art and a few others. Try and take the humble road on this one and give Steve the benefit of the doubt or at least try asking him in a PM or e-mail before attacking him in public. I don't like jumping in on threads like this but it really grind my gears when people attack Steve. Who is a good and dear friend and has given so much to the Indy gear crowd. All the different offering of Indy hats are all because of Steve. Before Steve started making Indy ( Raiders hats) there where slim pickings. He open the door for so many people and raised the bar. He raised the bar very high I might had. I doubt very much if you would be doing what you just did recently if it wasn't for Steve. Long story short. Show the MAN some respect.

I think I've made it clear in my post above that I'm not attacking Steve and where I am coming from, and that he has my utmost respect, of course, as noted above. I'm constantly trying to work on my own flaws. On occasions like this, my lack of tact is one of them. Despite the overt passion above, I am actually quite a humble guy believe it or not. But when I read the comments above it seemed to be pretty clear what they were saying under the surface. I gave it to others to read to make sure I wan't overreacting and they agreed. If Steve would like to clarify where he's coming from, obviously I would welcome that.

Just to be clear, I never at any stage claimed to put myself in the same league as the people you point out - what I did say is that knowledge can come from numerous sources.

As for who is in line with who, THAT'S FOR THE CUSTOMERS TO DECIDE. My only point is that I wanted to ensure I would be given a fair opportunity to allow the members of COW to do so without posts that seem to be coinciding with my recent posts making them think "but he wasn't trained by Steve".

BendingOak, I'd just ask you to reread the above posts from Steve from a perspective of being outside "the privileged few" and think about how that may infer that person's place in the market.

Wow, Steve. I'm a little shocked. Looks like your skills extend beyond hats. A missed career in politics or advertising? As this thread has clearly been triggered by me, and serves to discredit all of my efforts, I feel I have the right to respond.

I'm sorry the above is not a insult or attack?????? If you had upmost respect for him you would have handled it privately.

Just to be clear, I never at any stage claimed to put myself in the same league as the people you point out - what I did say is that knowledge can come from numerous sources.

No, but you are acting like it.

allow the members of COW to do so without posts that seem to be coinciding with my recent posts making them think "but he wasn't trained by Steve".

Again, I think you are reading into things.

there is more to hat making than the surface. Just taking a raw body and stretching it over a block, cutting the brim, sanding the felt, flanging the brim and sewing on the trimmings. I think thats what Steve's point is. Read the title of the thread. He is addressing the back of his block. He has that right. Just like you titled your thread

"THE Raiders Block Uncovered? " Big boast coming from the new kid on the block. I doubt you would even attempt or get close WITHOT all the ground work Steve did for everyone. Steve also said that all the blocks he has recently all look good. I would assume yours is one of them. Thats a complement

Steve did the exact same thing when I started into hats. I took the advise and did re-blocks. It helped out a lot. I didn't get pushed out. I got got pulled into being helped by him. WAY TO GO Yojimbo.

Be Seeing You

Alright, gents, back in your corners please. It seems everyone here wants to have the last word on the subject. Let mine act as such before things keep spiraling downward.

Gosh, my post was taken in the wrong way by Yohimbe. I apologize my friend. That was not my intention at all! I thought I was giving good advice for future hatters, and it comes from my own direct experience. I started out, differently than some, and I still think if anyone wants to have a better chance at success, my formulae works. That advice is actually worth something, yet, I shared freely. Just thought I was doing folks a favor, by illustrating my own sucess story. And successful it was. The good will, created by the way that I started out, still serves me today, and it is impossible to gauge just how much it has.

Way back, I gave away free hats of mine, to the less fortunate, never blew my own horn in doing so, as most was done quietly, behind the scenes. Michaelson even would mention a less fortunate person(privately offline), asking if I could help, and every time, to my memory, I did indeed help. But not just Michaelson, a couple more folks too. I would still be doing that today, IF, my lead times were not so ghastly. So, in the future, you can expect the same from me. I had several guys in the past years that wanted to own one of my hats, back when they were 225.00 but could not afford it, and after I determined these were indeed real cases, I gave away several of my hats to help these fans out. I have charged several times only my actual cost, to other people, who were disabled, but COULD afford the cost of my materials, so I gave my labor away free. Now, is this advertising? One could see it that way, but since at the time, we remained silent about these deals, it was never used to advertise my hats. And I only bring it up now, just to show the doubtful that I not only talk the talk, but walk the walk, whenever possible.

Part of my percieved contentious post just suggested that some of the new hatters, offer free reblocks prior to coming out with their own line of Indy fedoras. It serves two important facets. First, you get to see how different brands of felt require different techniques in constructing the hat. You learn important lessons by doing this. And are less apt to destroy another's hat, later on, when you get in a run of felt that is totally different than what you generally get from the same supplier. It will save you money, because you don't have to throw that body away, and start over! And throw it away, many times you must do, because no one wants to send out a hat that has flaws, created by the hatmaker, or the factory. I am currently working on a hat for Marc, in the camel color. It was going great, until I got to poucing the brim. My first pounce revealed a piece of what looked to be wood, a small chip, that ran all the way to the core of the felt. Now, sometimes you can dig out and then pounce out the trash that all hatters eventually see in some bodies. But not this one, because it ran too deep. A less experienced hatter, not wanting to throw away a hundred dollar body, might try to get by with it, thereby leaving a small area on the brim that was basicaly a low spot. I threw the body away. As any good hatter would do.

I do give my opinions, probably way too often here, but I think I have earned the right, somewhat to do so. My hatmakng started out purely as a hobby, and for years I sold pure beaver hats here, that would generally sell in the 500 to 750 dollar range, if bought from an established hatter. I did not do this with the intention of making a lot of money. I did it because at that time, the offerings from most other hatters were lacking in a big way, if you wanted a Raiders fedora. And, having spent around 7500 bucks on the various other brands, at that time, I wanted a more durable Indy fedora, and one that looked more like what we see onscreen. But, I was not trying to make a living from my hatmaking. I saw myself as helping out other Indy fedora fans who were like me, not happy with what we had bought, at that time. And my pricing reflected that until we got the Indy 4 gig. It was still nothing more than a hobby until Indy 4. That changed everything, mostly due to the demand that was greater than a one man show could handle and still have livable lead times.

So, you took my post as an attack, upon you, and perhaps other new hatters.

I feel I AM the competition that is being attacked (whether purposeful or not).

Sir, I don't see anyone here as my competition. That may sound odd, but I really don't. There are only two guys that can make exactly what we put into Indy 4, Marc and myself. That is 90 per cent of my business, today. You can copy it, and that is fine, but I did things when we made those hats, that would make them hard to replicate, exactly. And neither Marc or I use strictly traditional techniques in how we make our hats. We learned these, over years, some of it came from making thousands of hats, and some came from the help of old hatters, like the guy Marc found in Europe who had retired, but shared things you never see online, or read about. This craft is like that. You can get a general idea of how to make a hat, but there are so many small things, details, that are never told, and for good reason. Those little secrets are something all old time hatters know about, but seldom share, because they want to have their own little special secret, that makes for a better hat. But with these hatters, the main difference is in the sequence of the techniques, and not so much as something that know one else knows about.

Making hats involve a learning curve, that only time and making hats will aid in getting there. There really are no short cuts in hatmaking, if you want to make it the best that you possibly can. This applies not only to hatmaking, but also every real craft out there. And that is why I have suggested now, and in the past that a hatter needs to make many hats before he starts selling them, UNLESS you actually were trained by another hatter, who already has made all of the common and uncommon mistakes, and can save you from repeating his own experience. Do you absolutely HAVE to do it in this manner? Of course not! But, it is a very intelligent way to learn the craft. The traditional way of learning the craft, involved paying a hatmaker to teach you the craft. Then only after you had worked for him for few years and were able to make the hat correctly, you then worked for free for a period, before he would give you his blessings. At that time, you could start up your own biz. This insured that the new hatmaker could produce a well made hat, and kept the quality of hats way up there.

Can you make hats, by making a few scores, and then offering them to sale? Sure. And much depends upon the skill level of the hatter that is doing this. Some catch on faster than others. John caught on the fastest of anyone I have seen in my years of doing this. He was a "natural" but all are not born "naturals". Plus, he did have help from me and Marc, which speeded him up in reaching the level he is at. He did not have to repeat our mistakes.

There is so much more to hatmaking than just making a hat that looks accurate to Indy's. That is only a small part of hatmaking. Learning the "right" way to make a hat is more important, and in the long run, is what will determine if you are successful in your enterprise. And also, unless you have the luck of working under an experienced hatmaker, you will like me and others, have to learn by trial and error, with a little help from other experienced hatters, if you can find one that is willing to do so. Generally these guys are really close to the vest on their methods. So, you can't skip the "time" variable if self taught. And that was my main point in my percieved contentious post. And I told HOW I did it. Which I still think is the best way to get into this Indy fedora biz. But certainly NOT the only way.

No one has to take my advice, but I give it because I know that it works! And I do it, to try and help out. I do understand how, if you are not aware of my own history, some things that I do post can easily be taken in a way that was not intended, by me. I know this is the case with you, going by what you posted. And I now understand that folks that do not know me, and what I have done here, over the years, can totally misunderstand my intentions. Just trust me, when I say that my intentions are meant to help you guys out, and not trash you. My own success story speaks for itself.

In the future, I wil try and refrain from giving advice. It would actually benefit me not to give it. That I do, should show, this isn't about me trying to hurt another hatter. Once you are in this for awhile, hatmaking, you may find out that what I have said, was indeed the best advice you got when you first started making hats. 10 years from now, I doubt many new hatters will still be making hats. But the AB brand will be here for as long as Marc is alive, and long after I retire. I know our success was dependant upon the way that I started hatmaking. You can follow my example or not. But, I am proof, that my own methods from the get-go, has gotten me to where I am today. Perhaps I should have been greedy, and kept all of those methods to myself? Sometimes no good deed goes unpunished. But seriously, my critiques and pats on the back are intended to help and to encourage. But also to point out that making great hats involves a learning curve, and alot of practice is essential. I got mine from reblocking and rebuilding my own huge hat collection at that time, followed by reblocking other brands of hats for free. Pics of these free reblocks were posted here, so that when I finally did offer my own line, I already had a market for them. I started off with a bang, and my first order for bodies were 6 dozen, or 72 hats that were sold already. From then on, the orders just increased overtime, and the Indy 4 fedora we made for the film, increased expoentially my sales. Part of this increase was from here, but most of it were from non members, who never knew what COW was. I was given a world wide market, and this all started out as free reblocks to my fellow fans here, which built good will, and that good will played a very important role in us being selected to make the Indy 4 fedoras. My formulae, while not calculated or planned, and came from me just wanting to help out my fellow fans, paid off in spades. And most of my own success, I feel, goes right back to the manner in which I started. By starting this as a hobby, with no intention of it ever being anything other than that. But it says more about my personality than anything else. I would hope it would say something about my character, that some have questioned over the years, who did not know my own personal history with this hatmaking deal I have going on.

So Yohimbe, you took my post in the worse possible way, but I can understand why. The way you percieved it was NOT the way I intended it. I thought I was giving out advice that works, which would have helped anyone who took it, as being wisdom from a guy who started out making hats as a hobby, with no income generated from it, and ended up making the Holy Grail of fedoras. The Indy 4 fedora. But, no hard feelings on my end. And I mean that. I want friends and not enemies.

Now, do I feel some here have taken shortcuts that will come back to haunt them, or complicate their business? I sure do. But that is just my opinon. And I have offered my free advice, addressing this issue that I feel is very important. But by me saying this, it is not intended to insult, or cut anyone down. It is just advice, that come from my own quest. And I would hope, would be seen for what it really is. The most capitalistic thing I could have done, was to remain silent. When I saw a hat from one hatter, who was installing sweats the wrong way, I never made an issue of it. I would never mention a name, unless it was an experience that I had back when I was buying hats from various folks. And then it would have been a complaint from me, about the hat I bought. I have seen several brands that are what I consider pretty bad craftmanship, and remained silent. But, with that said, I have been very vocal about mass produced factory hats that lacked in quality, and craftmanship. But those attacks were against a big factory, and not a real hatmaker. And certain factory like the Akubras, have gotten much praise from me. And other folks critisizing brands like Stetson, to Hatco's attention, as evidenced on TFL, and changes were made by Hatco, for the better. The main case being the luering powder Stetson used to use in some of their dress hats, that would bleed out onto your shirt collar if you got caught in a rain. They no longer use it! So by me and others bringing this to their attention, they now make a better, dress hat. I am currently even working with Hatco, on improving their hats. Very gratifying to think such a large company would ask me! If I were your run of the mill hatmaker, I would have declined their request. But I am not that typical hatmaker. If I can help them improve the breed, it serves every hat wearer who buys that brand. And that is what I do. That I would attack my competition, especially here, is ludicrous, to me, but it really helps when you know my history, and what I have done here. Only then could you totally see my posts for what they really are. We just don't all have the luxury of being old members, migrating from Indy Fan, in the Great Gearhead Exodus, that killed that great site.

So, I see this hoorah, as nothing more than a misunderstanding. And as I said, no hard feelings on my end. I am sure some of it comes from my own writing, and not being a great writer, that can easily be misconstrued. Regards, Fedora

Michaelson even would mention a less fortunate person(privately offline), asking if I could help, and every time, to my memory, I did indeed help.

You never turned me down, my friend. Thank you again.

Regard! Michaelson

Steve, I'm SO glad you have responded to clarify. THANKS - I do appreciate it.

Sorry if I jumped the gun on this and read something that wasn't intended or even unconsciously legible by anyone else. But I'm glad you see why.

To give you some background on myself in turn to explain how this happened, I own a small marketing company, and it's my job to give people advice (mainly small to medium businesses) on how to best approach their market. The insight I have isn't easy to turn off when it comes to what other businesses are doing in the way that they project themselves. A company is normally always looking at how to get word out about their own strengths vs. others weaknesses is just an obvious part of the strategic game. If I were advising a client as to what to do in your position as new people came into your market, believe it or not, I'd actually tell them to do exactly what you did (From a marketing perspective it's a compliment) because it reinforces the criteria of the market in a way that benefits you and those aligned with you. Now at this point in time, I'm not saying you did it on purpose - but that's what caused my brain-snap. Because it seemed like way too much of a coincidence. And because in this COW environment I had tried to leave all that stuff at the door as much as possible myself, and all of a sudden it felt like a helpful / show&tell / "look at the cool thing I did" kind of culture turned into one that uses advice to play a bigger game.

So with a cooler head, I get where you're coming from. I agree with much of the sentiment. But the difference beween when you started to now is that it's now a fairly saturated market. From what I know of the time period when you were doing free reblocks, there weren't so many vendors that range from high quality to cheapies. So any market share a new business is likely to get by entering into this environment is very limited, compared with what you achieved by spreading the word about your hats in the way you did. I get where you're coming from, but on weighing up what I have to offer people vs. the value that they need to get, the return on that investment is likely to be very slight, especially when they would be paying shipping to Australia and back. On thinking really hard about quality issues people could have with reblocks (as you've noted with the Christys for instance) vs. me having complete control over the production process, it's just not something that makes sense. It could result in more bad news and costs for the customer, and I obviously don't want that.

This is why I've posted the survey so people can see the options I've provided instead of the reblocks which some have requested. If you check it out viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44764 you'll note that it's designed to get a handle on what people want, and then provide it. What I'm also trying to say is that I'm in no rush to get anything out there before I know I can deliver something that's 100%. The options shown aren't just based on what I've picked up via the net and in books. They're also on me being given advice by hatters and distributors who know the craft as well as the ins-and-outs of many hat offerings. Coincidentally, a couple are people I've known for years.

It's actually looking like I may be working with some of them on efforts to reinvigorate the global market for quality fashion hats - something I'm quite passionate about, and I'd love to have you involved if that comes to pass. Especially with your insights. It's an absolute shame the industry has got to the state that it's in, especially when you hear some of the stories they have told me about their visits to hat & felt factories in China, etc. on buying trips. But that's a whole other kettle of fish for a different thread.

Anyway, I hope this clarifies things.

Sincerely, Kurt.

Glad we got this resolved! And as with all of the new guys that are getting into hats, I wish all of you the best of luck. I have stated several times, the hats look great! If I missed any, it is just because I don't always get to read all of the threads, or follow up at times. Like today. Because of a long day ahead of me, this will be my only post, and the only one I will get to read, for today. It's my day to cover up all of my blocks, for this weeks work, so looks like I will be doing reblocks today, after I get the blocks filled. And 3 Indy Mag fedoras. So, a long day ahead of me. Fedora

Back when I first started working on a more accurate Raiders block, this section of the block baffled me the most. I was convinced, from the investigations I had done on screen grab measurements, that the back of the block had its own unique affect that was completely different that the front of the block. The back end of the bash terminated at a lower measurement from the brim than the front. On an early block I was using, the front and back was at the same height. No matter how I "forced" the effect to happen, the back of the block would lose all resemblance to the film hat. The hat would lack the "full" look that the film hat had and the hat would do the dreaded taper. . More so, was answering the question "If the back of the hat is lower than the front, how does the hat look so "boxy" in the exterior temple scene at the beginning of Raiders. It measures taller from the brim on the back than the traditional turned hat. It seemed like two completely opposite affects that occupy the same spot on the block. The solution ended up being quite simple, though. Not simple in figuring it out. Just simple in how it is done.
What many folks here do know is that I worked to recreate a block style I saw on a vintage HJ that Steve had. What most don't know is I have worked on many different block combinations. I wanted to get an understanding of the "hat block world" as well as the hat making world. I learned, as I worked on different blocks, that each aspect on the block itself - height, tapers (front and/or back), no taper (front and/or back), diamater of radius roll to the crown top, slope along the top of the block, no slope along the top - just to name a few, have everything to do with what type of bash job makes a certain look on a hat. In other words, one block won't do it all. The block that made Bogart's hat in Casablanca won't make Indy's hat. Plain and simple. Like many of you, I started with an Akubra. Never did get it to work. You can get "close enough", but if you're wanting to get accurate, "close enough" ain't even close.
Rambling, I know, but as many are doing now, trying to make a block, you will soon learn that a block has many facets to it. These things are what I wanted to learn as much as reblocking my own hat. I wish good luck to those who are trying to make their own block. It confirms to me that I ain't the only guy looking at the fine details besides the verterans at this site.
Yojimbo Jones carry on. You have got a pretty good start. When you get satisfied, regardly where your endeavors take you, you will always be able to keep your hat looking the way you want it.

Is the Henry made using ABs most accurate Raiders block, or different than what is used for the hand made?

Fedora wrote:...to hold one in hand, doesn't seem to match up to what I see on the film. It is of course identical, but something comes into play when you film a hat, and then compare it to one in hand. They don't always look the same.

That's exactly it. It's probably been covered here before, but when something is photographed (in this case a hat) the particular focal length can add distortions to the image. For instance:


This photo was taken at the lens' widest setting (35mm equivalent of 36mm focal length) and at about eighteen inches away. Notice how the proportions are exaggerated. No grief about the hat please, I know it's not perfect.


This photo was taken with the lens set approximately to 50mm which is the same angle of view as the human eye, and around four feet away. The proportions are (just about) accurately presented.


This was taken at the telephoto end of the scale (35mm equivalent focal length of 432mm) and about ten feet away. The image is more compressed (although it doesn't look like it).

The same goes for people too.

That's exactly it. It's probably been covered here before, but when something is photographed (in this case a hat) the particular focal length can add distortions to the image. For instance:

Glad you added some more credence to this deal. Of course, we have talked about it many times prior, but sometimes the newer guys missed it. This one fact plays into anything we replicate from using something that is filmed, or even photographed.

Some of the hats in CS, depending upon the angle and other things, look like what we made. While others, don't look like it. But, I know, from info gathered while the filming of the last film was being done, that all of those hats were the same, and clones, at least when I shipped them off to them. No doubt some getting real wet and then re-used will be a factor as well, and of course, Bernie utilizing his jiffy steamer many times in putting the creases back in, once Harrison had destroyed the crease job, is another factor to add as well. And, I know of at least one hat in the film, that morphed back to the round oval block used to make the hat, prior to shipping it to me, to reblock on the CS block that was a regular oval. If you see a hat in Indy 4 that looks to be a bit wide for Ford's head, this was one that I failed to stabilize well enough, into the CS blockshape that I used. And, it morphed back into a round oval. One of those hats made it onto a can of Dr. Pepper, and I cringe each time I used to see it. Thankfully, this only happened on one hat, as best that I can tell, and I would bet it originally was a stunt hat, in Ford's size. The last hat in the film, the wedding hat, was a stunt hat, in Ford's size that Bernie grabbed, probably because it was made in Ford's true size, and I know this due to the liner. It did not have that rare European side seamed liner that all of Ford's hat got. It had my modern plain white liner that I put into the stunt hats, or at least many of them. I think Ford used the tighter fitting 22 7/8 sized hats for the film, the action work especially, and the 7 3/8s hats, made for various stunt men was used for that final scene. And probably because it fit him correctly. But, I don't know for sure, as to why they used a stunt hat in that last scene, so just conjecturing here. Fedora

What most don't know is I have worked on many different block combinations. I wanted to get an understanding of the "hat block world" as well as the hat making world. I learned, as I worked on different blocks, that each aspect on the block itself - height, tapers (front and/or back), no taper (front and/or back), diamater of radius roll to the crown top, slope along the top of the block, no slope along the top - just to name a few, have everything to do with what type of bash job makes a certain look on a hat. In other words, one block won't do it all. The block that made Bogart's hat in Casablanca won't make Indy's hat. Plain and simple.

Yep, you nailed it. Different blocks, were designed with what was needed for that final creased look. And some blocks are designed for an open crown hat. But most of these can be creased of course.

With the Raiders fedora, or even the TOD and the rest, the devil is in the details. I found that several different block numbers, vintage blocks, all would yield a good looking Raiders fedora, and most folks would be pleased with what they got. But, to a real anal person, (I hate that term, and need another one to use) discrepicies would be obvious, unless the block was real close to the original one used. And you can get close, yet still not be exactly perfect, and it is hard to tell, even for the anal fans.

But I think we can honestly say that today, there are several hats available that used not to be available, that get close to the Raiders fedora that most are satisfied. It was not always this case. These are different times. When I first joined Indy Fan, years ago, most of the hats we could buy suffered from being too tapered, or too short, and no one had a good Raiders bow. Those times are gone, and today we have a plethora of Raiders fedoras, thanks to the internet, and the growth of Indy fandom.

I started at a great time, back when fairly accurate Raider fedoras were rare, with the Optimo, finally getting close, as they had those straight sided old blocks that had basically fell out of use. There was a vacuum there, that I helped fill. Timing is everything I guess. Fedora

generalFROSTY wrote:Is the Henry made using ABs most accurate Raiders block, or different than what is used for the hand made?

IIRC, the Henry is made on a block known to have been used by HJ but not definitively "the" Raiders block.

Fedora wrote:...I hate that term, and need another one to use...

Fastidious?

How about "analytical?" After all, it's where the "nickname" derives from.

You could also go "neurotic". It's what I tend to run with.

LLS, you describe a situation that is all too familiar. Learning what adjustment would achieve what effect. I have only made one block, but it took many forms. I made the block a solid inch higher than necessary, and it got shorter and shorter until I revealed the right amount in the right combination that yielded a block that matched every angle and curve correctly. Oddly enough in my case, the back range of back 3/4 angles were the ones I got spot on first, then the top arc, and the front and its assiciated angles took me probably twice as long again. But I may have approached it in a really weird way compared to others. Believe it or not, having lots of photographic / film-making experience plays a big part in being able to figure it out. It is also a way you could easily cheat certain effects if you knew how to do it, as the shots above show. But it wouldn't help in achieving the block in the end - like an old teacher of mine used to say - "If you cheat, you cheat yourself"

When all was done and I could progressively match it to many angles in the film something Steve had mentioned popped into my head that I had forgotten. It was a weird English blockshape. I hadn't had any idea what that meant until I looked at the block that worked, and like LLS, the curves and angles are not what I would have expected. But once you get your head around what the shape is doing, make total sense and looks elegant - to me anyway.

How about "analytical?" After all, it's where the "nickname" derives from.

Ok Bink, I am simple and gullible. Is this true? IF so, it don't sound so bad now using "anal". But knowing you, this was just a very observant and good joke! I just don't know of another word that nails it the way anal does. It has a certain, uh, way of defining myself.

While we are on block shapes, anyone ever notice in TLC, in the behind the scenes footage, when Indy was chasing the tank, on his horse, that the crown has popped up, and appears to be really flat? Flatter than any other fedora crown I have ever seen. And totally unlike the Raiders fedora, or even other hats in TLC. I alway wondered about that one hat.

Also, in Raiders, the hat changes colors of brown. I see some that appear to have a yellow undertone, but most look to have a red undertone. Has to be something also to do with filming and what happens to colors if filmed, in different lighting.

But, I don't see such a huge color shift in TOD or TLC. In the opening of Raiders, when he walks into the sunlight, and you see him from the rear, the sun and lighting hitting hat hat makes it look yellowish, in undertone. Could be just my tv though.

Fedora wrote:

How about "analytical?" After all, it's where the "nickname" derives from.

Ok Bink, I am simple and gullible. Is this true? IF so, it don't sound so bad now using "anal". But knowing you, this was just a very observant and good joke! I just don't know of another word that nails it the way anal does. It has a certain, uh, way of defining myself.

Well, it all depends what context you're using anal, I suppose. If you're a proctologist, it takes on a whole other meaning!

While the word you hate to use can be taken in a number of ways, we tend to shorten words sometime out of sheer laziness. (I do this, too!) Let me rephrase what you said above and see if what I suggest makes sense, though:

But, to a real analytical person, discrepancies would be obvious, unless the block was real close to the original one used. And you can get close, yet still not be exactly perfect, and it is hard to tell, even for the analytical fans.

Does that work?

Fedora wrote:...in Raiders, the hat changes colors of brown...Has to be something also to do with filming and what happens to colors if filmed, in different lighting.

Once again, you hit the nail on the head. The image goes through a lot from the time it's photographed until we see it on DVD. For example (like you said) the lighting could impart a certain hue, the coating on the lens might affect the color too. Not to mention the response curves of the film stock, the chemicals in the processing, color timing of the duplicating negative (also the response curves of the negative) and so on. Then whatever changes happen after the film has been scanned and the colorist does his thing. To sum up, it's nearly impossible to show the exact color of an object on the screen.

Fedora wrote:...Could be just my tv though.

Try using the THX optimizer on the Indy discs (if you're not using an LCD or plasma display). You'll need the blue filter glasses to do this right. After your TV is 'calibrated' it will give you a much closer representation to what the digital colorist saw, not what the 'actual' colors were.

Taking into account the effects of the lens and the processing of the image, unless someone could actually hold the item in question in their hand under different lighting conditions, I think it would be nearly impossible to match the exact color. I guess we'll just have to settle for 'screen accurate.'