Club Obi Wan

Remember this thread? http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42721 I proposed the crown of the Raiders hat was pulled down over the top of the ribbon muffin-top style because the Tannis turban was worn over the hat. It was met with so much resistance, I didn't bother/dare to post these pics in that thread. This was my Fed 4 Winston 360. I put the hat on, wet my fingertips, and pulled the crown down over the ribbon. O.K., maybe the turban wasn't involed, and Ford put his hat on, wet his finger tips and did this too. Here's the latest Winston 360, a pre-Raiders HJ, I've blocked it to begin tapering lower than the original W360, and I'll tell you why later, but it has undergone "muffin-topping." It's a fine, thin felt that has been softened with 4 reblocks, so the effect isn't overly extreme. The reason I bring it up now is fedoraraiders claims to have a "little trick that is secret, and in the pic of his hat compared to a LLS, look at the indent just above the ribbon on the right side of his hat. I don't know if fedoraraiders is doing the muffin-top, and if this is his secret, but muffin-topping is a great distressing techniqe if you are going for the SOC look. Your hat should be a 360 stovepipe, or close to it, because it will give you less backtilt. I have been repeatedly folding my crown at the top of the ribbon on each hat I've owned for about 8 years now, to try and get the Raiders look. Muffin-topping gets it for you in seconds, and extreme.

I think that the bulging, or muffin-topping, is a result of taper, or shrinkage. I think that when the Tunisia weather finally got to the hat, they had to come up with a way to keep the hat in shape and purposely made the felt bulge in that way. I can get any hat to bulge, from wool to beaver and with ease. I have dont this to a hat with taper and the taper goes away, if it is little enough. I think you are right, to an extent. I don't think it was as extreme as that first picture you posted, but the one of it on your head looks better. Another reason I don't buy into the 360 theory is that there IS a lot of tilt back on the Tunisia hat and while being worn. Your tilt back goes away while worn. But I think you are right about the muffin-topping, for sure.

Dave

I recreated this same effect by using a rubberband. However, I'm convinced the bulging in the SOC hat came from the hot & sweaty Tunisian conditions.



Richard

don't know if fedoraraiders is doing the muffin-top, and if this is his secret, but muffin-topping is a great distressing techniqe if you are going for the SOC look. Your hat should be a 360 stovepipe, or close to it, because it will give you less backtilt. I have been repeatedly folding my crown at the top of the ribbon on each hat I've owned for about 8 years now, to try and get the Raiders look. Muffin-topping gets it for you in seconds, and extreme.

You know 3M$, there really isn't anything new going on with the SOC fedora. You did this first here, the bulge deal. In fact, I think you are the original SOC hatter. I kept waiting for someone to chime in, about you. I did not want to hijack his thread, anymore than I already did, so I did not mention it. But glad you brought it up. You have always thought, outside the box.

The SOC fedora is still an oddity to me, and I still wonder the hows and whys of that particular hat. And one question I hope someone asks D.L. if they ever get the chance. "what did you do to get the SOC hat, to look so...well worn and distressed?" I well recall her saying, that she and Harrison sit on it, wadded it up, etc, so that it looked like a well worn, fedora. Is this all she did to the SOC hat? Hard to believe. Something did happen to it though. The ribbon has slid up,(why?) it bulges all over, the brim break droops. It had to be intentional! Many of the other hats in that film just look new.

3M$, what do you think of the CS block? I ask you, because from the front, the CS block is like your own 360. It goes straight up, no taper. But, the front and back of the block does have taper, like most of the vintage blocks you see. Probably 1/4 an inch from bottom to top. On the CS block, when creased ala Raiders, the hat just looks to be too straight. To the point of being blocky, stubby. And that is what prompted me to think the Raiders block was not this straight, on the sides. The Raiders hat just looks more streamlined to me, which of course could come from Ford wearing a 7 1/4 when in fact his head size is a 7 3/8. Either that, or the block just tapered in just a little bit. When I made the hat for the film, I used a 7 1/4 block instead of the 7 3/8. Why? Well because of the fullness of the block they had picked. If I would have used the right size, the hat would have looked ridiculously blocky. Wider than his face. So, I adjusted, and it worked out ok. And so glad I chose to do that at the time.

There is a famous ancient building, can't recall what it's called, or where it is. But very old. It tapers as it goes up, which from the ground looks to be non tapered, and in balance. It's an illusion. If the structure was perfectly straight up, it was said, the building would appear to be larger at the top than the bottom, and all esthetics would be lost. When I heard that on the history channel, I immediately thought of hats!!!

I proposed the crown of the Raiders hat was pulled down over the top of the ribbon muffin-top style because the Tannis turban was worn over the hat. It was met with so much resistance, I didn't bother/dare to post these pics in that thread.

Well, resistance to a new idea is understandable. But, that theory makes sense. SOMETHING, caused the bulging of this hat. For some reason, I just can't see D.L. pulling a tight cord around the hat to create those bulges. I just can't. I can't see her wanting to intentionally create those bulges either. I think it just happened, with the sort of felt that was used. Perhaps, the hat was injured in the filming, she had no back up hat with her, and she fixed it, thereby creating the SOC fedora. Who knows? We may never know.

and in the pic of his hat compared to a LLS, look at the indent just above the ribbon on the right side of his hat.

Looks like a cord impression. When I first saw that pic, I saw two hats that look to come from the same block. The difference, is the right one is just taller, and the top crease just a bit deeper due to the taller hat. And it has the bulge. I guess its my eyes playing tricks on me though. Or rather my "eye" Still, even with one eye looking the resemblence is remarkable, as he said he used a different blockshape. But, it has to be a few tweaks, and not major changes. It very well may be the angles too that give me this perception. They are different angles for each hat. Maybe if they were on the same angle, I could see the difference.

One thing though I think is for sure. There is nothing new today in regards to the SOC fedora that has not already been done here, by you or someone else. Only the names change. You have always been an inspiration to me, and sometimes you get lost in the chaos and new members. I still have a pic of that duct tape Raiders fedora you made, somewhere on a cd. Do you still have a pic of it? If so, man, I would love for you to post it again. It was awesome dude! (can't believe I used those more modern terms!) And lots of new folks here now that have never seen your early work in other mediums. It still blows me away, as I have a hard image imprinted on my brain of that duct tape Raiders fedora.

Hey, you getting some gray around the temples? Join the club my friend. And post more man. I miss reading your posts. Fedora

I recreated this same effect by using a rubberband. However, I'm convinced the bulging in the SOC hat came from the hot & sweaty Tunisian conditions

Well, usually, the hot and sweaty heat would cause rabbit felt to shrink and taper, not bulge.

But, if you could have held in hand that vintage HJ I sold to Pagey, you would understand the bulge. This hat, after I got it, and wore it for awhile, started to bulge in the right places just from wear. It almost seemed like gravity was pulling the felt outward and downward, without any help from me. LLS also held this hat in hand, and he would tell you the same thing. It just bulged on its own! And the felt was very similiar to the Raiders felt, just a lighter brown that HJ stocked at one time. So, since I have seen a vintage HJ bulge like what we see on the film, it just HAS to be the sort of felt used in that hat. And, until now, I had forgotten about it, or I would have mentioned in my above post. So, I think part of the mystery is solved regarding the bulges. It's all in the felt. But to date, I have only seen one hat with this type of felt! And it was a very old HJ to boot. I would bet that whomever made that felt, also made the felt for the Raiders fedora. I would bet on it, if I were a betting man. Because, I have literally seen scores and scores of different brands of hats, vintage and new. And only one would bulge like that, on its own, with no help.

I want to think that Mr. Swales had some old bodies left over from the bespoke days at HJ, and used that for the Raiders hat. I do recall him telling someone that the ribbon was old stock he had on hand, so perhaps the bodies were old as well? Fun to think about it too. Afterall, the Raiders felt does look so vintage like in appearance, to what modern felt looks like. A big difference between the Raiders felt and the LC felt. You can tell the LC felt is modern stuff. It looks so common to our era. Fedora

Fedora wrote:

There is a famous ancient building, can't recall what it's called, or where it is. But very old. It tapers as it goes up, which from the ground looks to be non tapered, and in balance. It's an illusion. If the structure was perfectly straight up, it was said, the building would appear to be larger at the top than the bottom, and all esthetics would be lost. When I heard that on the history channel, I immediately thought of hats!!!

The columns on the Pathenon are designed like that - with a bulge built into them.

I'm completely ignorant when it comes to felt and making hats so this is probably a dumb suggestion... if so please forgive me. Could the bulge and reverse taper in the SoC hat be caused by the felt shrinking under the sweatband but not shrinking further up the crown? It strikes me that if it were worn constantly in really hot conditions the felt may shrink unevenly - the exact reverse than if the hat got wet with rain (where the top of the crown would shrink first)- it would shrink most where it was in contact with the head and sweat. This would be why the hat kind of looks like it's a size too small and has been crammed on HFs head and also why the ribbon looks like it's slipped up the hat? The hat has shrunk - but only under the sweatband?

Here is a small photo most will recall. Looks like the hat was just sat upon and then placed on his head!

Could the bulge and reverse taper in the SoC hat be caused by the felt shrinking under the sweatband but not shrinking further up the crown?

In this pic here, to me it looks as if the sweatband has been cut down in width(I think I can see where it ends, under the ribbon) and, the ribbon has been tightened really tight on the top edge, for some reason. The Raiders ribbon was very tight, unlike the LC hat.


Here is a rarer pic of the SOC hat. Notice just how far the ribbon has slid up on the left side as viewed. Looks like 3/8s of an inch from the brim break. So, the retaining stitches have been removed, for some reason. The crown also looks to be a smaller hat size than Ford would wear. It is very straight, yet not blocky looking in its width, compared to his face. And the bulges are not so obvious, but the pic isn't that clear, so.....

You know, looking at this now, it occurs to me that hat ribbon also is prone to shrinking. Indeed, attaching ribbons in the first place involved getting them to shrink just right to hug the hat. If you get a ribbon wet and then dry it in the desert sun (as I'm sure happened (accidentally or on purpose) during the Tunisia shoot, there's going to be lots of shrinking going on. This could explain some of what we see in the SoC hat. The sweatband could also be seated wrong in the hat (maybe it had to be reattached by less skilled people on set), and appears to be lower. Really, I see all kinds of very normal ways that could have created the SoC hat, be it with intention or not. I would maintain that the only way to get the look is by putting the hat through #### and then some, and basically destroy it. And hope it is ruined in just the right way...

I believe I am the first to muffin-top and live to tell about it. I never muffin-topped untill 3 months ago- It's a compound "S" fold made with a lot of pressure. I just now discovered it can be done with your fingers with the hat off, but I wouldn't have come up with it if I hadn't done it on my head first. .. I was trying to do what the turban might have done to soft Raiders felt in 120 degrees, but it might have happened during one of the retakes when Marion climbed up on Indy's shoulders- or not at all. As I stated, I have for years folded the felt at the top of the ribbon to get it to bulge- it has to be done many times to start to get some bulge. The SOC hat doesn't just "bulge" it puckers in tight on both sides of the hat, there's a gap, then bulges. I'm just saying, I think muffin topping is a new (and instant!) way to get this effect, whether it is what actually happened to the hat or not. It can be localized, just done where you want it, and the amount of felt pullled over the ribbon can be a little or a lot. Bullitt, the rubber band looks like another good option, and now that muffin-topping is off my chest, I'll admit I think the cause is probably the high heat and sweat and rare super felt. But how many are going to have, or want to have 120 degree heat to live in to shape their hat? You could wet the felt at the top of the ribbon and dry it with a lamp or hair dryer and get an effect, but you could ruin your hat if you didn't have a feel for the process. Heat and moisture will shrink the felt. If the Raiders SOC look IS about muffin-topping, no felt gets shrunk.

3M$, what do you think of the CS block? I ask you, because from the front, the CS block is like your own 360. It goes straight up, no taper. But, the front and back of the block does have taper, like most of the vintage blocks you see. Probably 1/4 an inch from bottom to top. On the CS block, when creased ala Raiders, the hat just looks to be too straight. To the point of being blocky, stubby. And that is what prompted me to think the Raiders block was not this straight, on the sides. The Raiders hat just looks more streamlined to me, which of course could come from Ford wearing a 7 1/4 when in fact his head size is a 7 3/8. Either that, or the block just tapered in just a little bit. When I made the hat for the film, I used a 7 1/4 block instead of the 7 3/8. Why? Well because of the fullness of the block they had picked. If I would have used the right size, the hat would have looked ridiculously blocky. Wider than his face. So, I adjusted, and it worked out ok.

I bought 3 styles of telescope Akubras, thinking I might find the original "Australian model". When I popped the top on these telescopes the block shape angled in sharply where the old crown height used to be. I hand-telescoped the crowns on my Winston 360's but it didn't come close to matching the taper of popped up factory telescopes. So now I make a block that starts to taper at 3 1/2 inches, where I think I see a line on the Raiders hat, indicating the top of an Australian model HJ. The first 3 1/2 inches are still stovepipe, but I might yet throw a little taper into the lower 3 1/2.

I still have a pic of that duct tape Raiders fedora you made, somewhere on a cd. Do you still have a pic of it? If so, man, I would love for you to post it again. It was awesome dude!

http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/ ... index.html

That first pic I posted of my old HJ didn't reveal too much about muffin-topping. Here's a new pic. fedoraraiders, my apologies, Your technique may be different and more valid than mine. I don't know if your secret even had anything to do with this facet of the hat. Every success to you.

That looks a lot better than the first pic you posted. And now everyone can see what you are talking about. That looks great. You can see the felt bulging on the side too. I believe this is how the SoC hat got to look the way it did. It was intentional, in my opinion. I've tried doing this too and got great results.

Dave

Here is that duct tape fedora. It still blows me away.



On the SOC fedora...well, perhaps one day someone will ask her how she did it. And perhaps she will recall! Fedora

djd wrote:
Could the bulge and reverse taper in the SoC hat be caused by the felt shrinking under the sweatband but not shrinking further up the crown? It strikes me that if it were worn constantly in really hot conditions the felt may shrink unevenly - the exact reverse than if the hat got wet with rain (where the top of the crown would shrink first)- it would shrink most where it was in contact with the head and sweat. This would be why the hat kind of looks like it's a size too small and has been crammed on HFs head and also why the ribbon looks like it's slipped up the hat? The hat has shrunk - but only under the sweatband?

Good thinking, hmm, sounds logical to me. Sounds like we need a field test experiment. Maybe that combined with soft, floppy, battered felt contributed to the effect.

Top of the muffin to you!

Off-topic here, but...

Fedora wrote:Here is that duct tape fedora. It still blows me away.

Hey, this would go well with my duct tape bullwhip!


You guys use the hat for summits, right? Wanna use my whip? Hehehe...

Could the bulge and reverse taper in the SoC hat be caused by the felt shrinking under the sweatband but not shrinking further up the crown?

The thing is, one part of a felt hat that generally is not prone to shrinkage is the area under the sweat. But, the leather itself tends to shrink. And that can be confused with the felt itself shrinking.

When a felt hat shrinks, this usually takes place on the tip of the crown, and then a few inches below it. That causes taper. The reason the felt shrinks at the tip, or top is because this is where the felt has been stretched out the most. Fedora

This is something I've been thinking about for some time, too. This is all I've been able to come up with...

If this production schedule is correct:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44477

And this hat truly is the Hero hat used in Tunisia:
http://www.screenused.com/index.cfm?
(Which, considering it still shows it's muffin-topping even today, seems to be true.)

Then the SOC hat got it's look somewhere between England and Tunisia and it was probably intentional.

I'm blaming the ribbon - the way it peeks out from under the bow leads me to belive there was either some serious distressing (or that it was even replaced for some reason), making it too tight for the hat, which also seems to figure as the bow stitching has obviously distressed/torn the ribbon underneath in front.

Thoughts?

How about this:

Studio scenes are shot. Raven Bar is filmed with big FIRE, which is HOT. Ford sweats.

Move to Tunisia, which is also hot. Ford sweats some more. Hat sweat band shrinks. They remove the sweat band, whch allows that part of the hat to sit tighter to his head, and what is left at the top muffin tops.

And top of the Muffin to you too!

I tried to imagine all the things that could have happened, but who knows? If there were a dozen hats ordered (I'm guessing a few of the German hats could have been included in that.) who knows how many were actually "Indy" hats, and where they were used.

But I think it's safe to say that the Flying Wing/ SOC hat is the same, based on the "muffin topping".

And since I wanted to re-do the ribbon on my Christy's anyway, I figured - what the heck, let's do a little Mythbusting. (Love that show! And Adam is obviously an Indy fan, too.)

So I took the ribbon bow apart, and measured it - 14 1/4". I then wetted and dried it with a hairdryer on hot. It shrunk about about an inch. I then ironed it and it shrunk even more - I was left with a 11 1/4" ribbon!

So, I bumped it up a notch - I wetted the entire ribbon and tossed the hat in the oven @130 degrees. Guess what happened...

No muffin-topping, but the hat shrunk. LOL- I kind of saw that coming, but had to try! I gave it one more try - wetting the ribbon and "roasting" it in front of the fire like a marshmellow - it made some more steam come out the crown, but no notable shrinkage.

I still think that the ribbon on the Tunisia hat shrunk somehow, but I don't know that it would be strong enough to compress the felt. If the felt was a better, non-shrinking variety as has (I think) been proven, then maybe the ribbon would shrink, leaving the felt to muffin-top, but I have my doubts. There's definately something wrong with the ribbon, though -it's WAY tight, so maybe the hat WAS damaged and repaired, giving us the SOC/ Tunisia hat.


Like the Tootsie Pop ad- the world may never know.

Chewie Louie wrote:Top of the muffin to you!

Aww, you beat me to it. I was thinking the same thing when I read the title!

When was it ever discussed that Indy wore his fedora UNDER the turban? Why would he ever do such a thing? Don't tell me it was because he wouldn't part with his iconic hat, because there are plenty of scenes in which Indy could be wearing his hat, but opted not to.

Does "Screenused" still visit the forums? Being the owner of the Hero hat, perhaps he could answer some of the questions concerning the sweatband and such. Though it sounds like Steve is right about the felt itself being to blame for the effect and why it doesn't act that way in TOD or LC.

Which brings me to a topic that may be for a whole new thread: What happened to the other Raiders hats after the production so that they weren't used in subsequent movies? Weren't there about a dozen ordered? Even if that included the grey hat worn by Ford and the German ones (may even be the same?), it seems only the "hero" Elstree/Tunisia hat has turned up.

What a find, if the others could be tracked down.

His last post was last October, so he hasn't been around for quite a while.

Regards! Michaelson