Club Obi Wan

Hi everyone:

I just had to tell everyone about my latest run-in with PBB Global.

I had ordered my Wested back in May, 2003. (A few months ago)
Anyway, I got the usual $21.18 bill and paid it.

Then I sent the jacket back to Peter for some alterations, with the
customs documentation VERY clearly marked that the item was being
returned for alterations. I even pasted this all over the box that I packed
up the jacket in: JACKET BEING RETURNED TO ENGLAND FOR ALTERATIONS.

I put that all over the box. Anyway, PBB tried to bang me again when
the jacket came back from Peter for another $21.18. I called them and
told them that because the jacket was being returned for alterations, that
they could not hit the jacket again for the customs charges, since I had
already paid them. And because the alterations were performed for free,
there was no other charges that could be hit with a customs charge.
(As a side note, you CAN be charged some customs fees on alterations
if the people you send your stuff back too charge for the alterations).

So, they supposedly corrected the "problem" on their end.

Now, yesterday, I get another bill for $21.18 for the jacket AGAIN! I called
PBB up and told them that they had already cashed my check for this,
and to please look up their records because I already took care of this
oversight on their part. I gave them the check number they cashed, the
date and time and everything.

I told them that I was not going to pay customs TWICE for an item that
was already paid for. But today, I get a call from the woman in charge of
financing, Debbie, and she says that Airborne delivered another package
to my door over a month and half after I already had the jacket!

I told this Debbie that she and her company have made another mistake,
and that I am not paying this again. She said that I had to pay.

So, I used the old Michaelson line about providing me with some document
that has my signature on it to prove that a package was indeed accepted
at my residence. She then goes into this tyrade about PBB doesn't have
to prove the package was delivered, that I have to get the signature proof
from Airborne!

I told her that I don't have to prove a package was left for me since it
is THEY that use Airborne as their delivery service, and that, by law, any
package that comes into the U.S. from another country has to be signed
for my a person over the age of 14 years.

I told her that for all I know, this is a scam to rip people off, and that
SHE has to PROVE otherwise. I said I never got a package, and if it was
stolen off my front steps, that its then either Airbornes or PBB's responsibility
to find out what happened to it.

I can not believe these people. When I get packages from other outside
vendors, I always have to go to the post office and sign for it before they
will give the package to me.

Beware of PBB! They are trying to rip you off if you don't keep good
records!

Flathead

You handled that very well, Flathead. As I always advise, document, document, document. Unless they can provide proof to the contrary, as you requested, the ball is in their court. The only thing I'd suggest is to follow up in writing, politely of course, and send it back to them with the bill. Give them about 30 days to reply, then forget it. If they pursue this without providing proof, report them to the Better Business Bureau, as well as any Federal agency that regulates the collection of customs fees (no sure who does this, but they need to be advised of this type of practice going on in their name), that is, if you want to pursue this any further than you already have. Regards. Michaelson

Michaelson:

I have all my documents that I had to fill out at the post office when I
sent the jacket back to Peter, so, if I do pursue this anyfurther, I can
send them my actual SIGNED customs documents as proof.

But I am not going to give them the satisfaction at this point. As you
said, the ball is in their court, and it is they who must provide the burden of proof
to the contrary.

It just amazes me that they do this. The first time I got the jacket, I
didn't get the bill for about a month and a half.

I can't even imagine all the older folks (and some younger ones too for
that matter) that when they get a bill of ANY KIND, that they just
automatically pay it out of fear of getting in trouble.

I had a credit card company once cash my payment for two cents more
than the check was written for!!

When I confronted them about it, they said it was a glitch. I asked if they
had these "glitches" often, and they got kinda mad at me.

But when I asked them to credit my account for the two cents, they
wouldn't do it!! Even though it was their mistake! They told me that it
would cost them more than the two cents to fix the problem.

I told them that it was illegal to cash a check for more than it was written
for, and that I would be contacting my lawyer and sueing them, and that
would cost them WAY more than two cents! (It was not the money, but
the point of the matter).

Anyway, they gave me back my two cents. But, just imagine, if they
have say over ten million people that use their card. And they do what
they did to me to just 20 percent of them. And those 20 percent just
shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, what can I do". That company
has just ripped people off for $40,000 dollars!

Proof, proof, proof!! Just like you said!! Get it in writing every chance
you get!

Flathead

Well, for the two cents matter, I think it's kinda dumb to sue them for the simple fact that it was only two cents. I know it was the principle of the matter rather than the money itself, but the main reason they wouldn't do it was most likely because it was only two cents. If it had been a few bucks, then I could imagine you sueing them. And if they did it to 20% of 10million people, that'd only be $40,000 from 2million people, which isn't really alot. But as for that jacket thing, I agree with you, you shouldn't have to pay anything

Dakota Brown:

I wouldn't actually have gone ahead and sued them for just
the two cents. I just wanted them to know that I was serious
about this.

And it's not just $40,000 dollars. If they did this every month
to people, that would add up to almost a half million a year
they were ripping people off! That is no small amount.

And even if it was, as you say:

only be $40,000 from 2million people,
which isn't really alot

to rip off 2 million people, for even
just two cents, is still ripping off 2 million people! Ripping off just
one is one to many if its YOU! There are people who have had
their credit rating DESTROYED over things like this that did not
get straightened out, and they ballooned into a full blown
audit. And it all starts with just two cents.

My point is this, there are some places that make their living off
of the fact that some people will not stand up for themselves, and
just roll over and take it up the you-know-what because they
are either too afraid to speak up, or that they just blindly pay
what ever is put in front of them.

These crooks know that, and they count on it...

Flathead

Well, I think I jinxed myself in saying that I've never gotten a customs bill for any of my Westeds before. On Saturday, I got a bill for my lastest authentic lamb. As was said before, it is a couple of months after the fact. The misses wasn't too pleased and asked me to call to look into it. I haven't yet, but will ask for documentation of their services provided before I pay it.

Mike

Ready for this?
I am was still battling with PBB up until last month. I have sent 3 letters total, two to PBB and one to their collection agency asking for written proof of my requesting their services (ala Michaelson). It seems now they have given up!! BUT well just have to wait and see im not going to count them out just yet....I have a feeling they might still send me another bill. I will keep this thread updated If I receive anything else, or if I wind up with a victory....

I J

FLATHEAD wrote:Anyway, I got the usual $21.18 bill and paid it.

Trying to recall the details of when I got my bill (I'm getting old, it was only a month ago): This amount breaks down into $13.68 (estimated) for U.S. Customs, and $7.50 for PBB. Furthermore, they state that the Customs fee is your responsibility no matter what. They give you the option of cutting one check to Customs, and a second one to PBB, the implication being that if you wrote one for the full amount to PBB and they fled the country with your $21.18, they'd be sitting on the beach drinking one of those rum drinks with umbrellas in them while you were in the pokey, breaking rocks in the hot sun.

From what I can figure out, PBB's claim to their charge is to front the money for the Customs charge so that you don't have to go into a Customs office to pick it up. To me, that seems worth the money.

However, the only thing out of the whole deal that bothered me was the "estimated" Customs charge. Seems to me if they had already paid the money, they should know what it was.

Anyway, I cut two checks. This way I know the Customs money is going to the right people.

Plynk wrote:

From what I can figure out, PBB's claim to their charge is to front the money for the Customs charge so that you don't have to go into a Customs office to pick it up. To me, that seems worth the money.

However, the only thing out of the whole deal that bothered me was the "estimated" Customs charge. Seems to me if they had already paid the money, they should know what it was.

United States Customs charges 6 percent of the total DECLARED value of your package
as their fee. So, if PBB says it is an "estimate", you are right to question
the estimated amount. It is an EXACT amount, down to the penny. You
then have to pay this exact amount to release your goods to you.

However, if you have to send the goods back, for ANY reason, in our
case a jacket, and you have the jacket altered, you would ONLY have to
pay U.S. customs on the total amout of the alterations ONLY! If the
alterations were free, such as my case, and anyone else who has sent
their jacket back to get something fixed by Peter, they you absolutely
DO NOT have to pay customs fees again! I got this information directly
from the United States Customs office in JFK Airport when I called to
question a charge that I got hit for when I sent back a shearling jacket
to Aero leather this past year.

They said to dispute the charge, and they would look at it and deside
if they made a mistake in charging me again.

Believe it or not, I got the TOTAL amount of the second charge back!
It did take them to the very last day of their 90 day policy to get the money
but I did get it.

PBB can NOT charge a customs fee for the same item, clearly marked and documented
returning to this country according to U.S. Customs own people. This is
illegal. I called PBB and told them that the first time this happened to me,
and they said they would take care of it because I was correct. They seemed
to take care of it, but now I get the second bill. The woman on the phone
even had my notes about the return from 4 months ago still on the computer,
but she insisted that I had to pay, even though the notes said I did not.

So, like IndianaJames, I asked them to provide DOCUMENTED, SIGNED
proof with my signature on it, that I accepted this other mistery package.
They can not obviously, because none of us has ever signed for anything
that PBB ships.

I have no problem Plyck, paying what is rightfully due to anyone, but to
get charges out of the blue is wrong. Think about it this way. If you bought
a jacket from LL Bean or Lands' End, and it had something wrong with it,
and you sent it back for an exchange of another one, they would not charge
you a second time for shipping or anything else to get the jacket back to
you. No company that I have ever delt with in the U.S. ever charged a
second fee for delivery of an item that I had sent back for an exchange.

The only charge that can be sent to you in our case with an exchange from
Peter is a small processing fee of about 4 or 5 dollars to do the paperwork.
Thats it! If the package came thru the Postal Service, you would have to
pay this small fee to the post office to get your package. I have no problem
with that as you stated.

I do have a problem with an "estimated" bill. If it is indeed an "estimated"
bill, then they open themselves up to send you another bill, at a later date,
for more fees because the first one was only an "estimate". That is bullsh*t.

Flathead

What would happen if everyone sent this conversation to the Better Buisness Bureau?

This is almost an epidemic... too many people writing about the same company like this.

What recourse do you have if you demand documentation and they don't provide it?

Renderking Fisk

Actually, I plan to report this to the BBB anyway, whether PBB does anything
or not. The BBB will do a limited investigation of all reports that it gets,
and I am certaintly going to report them.

Indiana-sith, you should report them as well as everyone who has been
hit with any bill that is not right. I don't mean to report the first bill I got,
as that was a legitimate charge. I am not however going to pay the second
or third one that they sent me in error. Those are going to the BBB as
well as my return customs documentation that proves this jacket was
not supposed to get hit with any other charges, as it was getting alterations
for free.

I reported U.S.Wings to the BBB awhile ago because they would not
credit my credit card when I sent back a Crusher Cap that did not fit
me. I asked U.S.Wings how to go about sending the item back, as it
was their fault that their person who answered my questions via e-mail
suggested the wrong size cap for me, even after I gave them my head
measurements.

Anyway, I followed their return policy to the letter, and after over 30
days of not hearing from them, and then having them tell me that they
never got the return, even after I had their signature on the return
reciept showing they had indeed picked up the package, they still didn't
credit me.

So, I reported them to the BBB. I also found out that they had no less
than 6 other reports of non-compliance with their own return policies.
A day after the BBB sent me a confirmation e-mail that they were now
in the process of doing their investigation, guess what? Wings wrote me
and said that my credit was on its way! Gee, and it only took two months
and some serious threats to get it.

So, we should all give the BBB our information about PBB and let them
do their thing. Its free, and it gives the little guy some muscle to get the
job done right.

As I said, I have no problem paying what is fair, but when they try to
rip me off, then thats where I will draw the line.

Good suggestion Renderking Fisk!

Flathead

Just don't assume that your local BBB will follow up after you file the complaint. I'm involved with a filing on a Mineke store in Knoxville, and filed the claim on March 28th. The BBB is STILL processing this one, and only after my wife and I actually showed up in their front office last month did they finally get off their collective posteriors and begin an investigation in earnest. They're supposed to be good, over all, but make no assumptions that the BBB is a do all, fix all concern. By the way, who do you report the BBB to if dis-satisfied with THEIR service? Regards. Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:By the way, who do you report the BBB to if dis-satisfied with THEIR service?

The BBBB.

Mike

Regards. Michaelson

Good one....

Well I think this whole thing is a joke, period. The bottom line I think, is that one cannot request money for services rendered, if said services werent requested in the first place, thats my whole problem with PBB. Ill be ordering another jacket soon, I just hope I dont have to go through this battle again. The BBB reporting is a good idea for sure, is there a place to file a report online?

Cheers
I J

And as for this US wings trying to gip you on your hat FLATHEAD, well theres one more reason I wont be ordering anything from them but thats for a previous thread.
[/quote]

Yep, you can indeed file on the web, but be sure to follow up with what ever office you decided to file with, as for some reason the internet file number assignment and what the BBB office actually USES are two completely different things. Go figure. Regards. Michaelson

I did indeed file my report to the BBB online. I actually got a response
from them rather quickly in my case. And U.S.Wings also mentioned this
in their sorry excuse for a note they sent me two months later when they refunded my
money for the cap.

It does work, although sometimes slowly, in Michaelsons case. But it does
work. And, if for nothing else, the more bad reports a business gets, the
more other businesses will think twice about using them. Maybe, if we all
file our reports, then maybe we can put PBB out of business. Or at least
make other vendors think twice about using them if they have a bunch of
dissatisfied customers on the other end.

Flathead

Yep, like most things, a service organization is only good as the office you're dealing with, even BBB, so let my experience be a guage as to how the BBB works. Regards. Michaelson

This is of interest to me as I have a part-time work-study job at the Southwest Missouri chapter of the Better Business Bureau, and I find that there are a lot of misconceptions about the BBB. Some think it is a government entity, which it is not. BBBs are privately owned (usually by a board of directors), independently operated, non-profit organizations that are overseen by the Council of Better Business Bureaus. Thus each one operates and handles things a bit differently.

To whom do you complain about your local BBB? To the Council of Better Business Bureaus. It does listen -- the Miami BBB was recently closed down for gross violations of its charter.

The BBB can be an excellent resource if you're not sure where to turn with a complaint; they can very often point you in the right direction. BBBs do handle complaints as well, contacting the businesses in question and submitting a copy of your complaint, trying to resolve disputes equitably and in some cases even offering arbitration. But the BBB has no 'teeth' the way a government agency like the Federal Trade Commission does. The BBB relies on businesses wanting to uphold their good reputation. If a business doesn't want to cooperate and doesn't care what people think about it, there is not much the BBB can do about it.

There are other avenues, however. The FTC is one, and the state attorney general's office is another excellent place to file complaints, particularly if fraud is involved.

Michaelson, your Meineke complaint should have been handled by April 28, assuming your local BBB operates under the same rules that ours does. When we submit a complaint to a business, that business has 28 days in which to respond, at which point we are supposed to immediately forward their response to the complainant. The fact that your case is still unresolved would seem to indicate shoddy work on the part of your local BBB. The problem, of course, is that BBBs are non-profit, which means that usually only one or two people, usually the President and Vice-President, are actually drawing a salary. The rest of the people are either volunteers, or, as in my case, people receiving Federal work-study grants equating to about the minimum wage.

As for the incident of the two cents, I think I can account for that. Credit card purchases are often one to two cents off because of tax rates, which are usually not rounded off to the nearest penny. So if you buy something and the sales tax rate is 7.725%, the retailer's cash register may round it down to the nearest penny, while the credit card machine may round it UP to the nearest penny. It happens to me all the time.

Well, without getting into details, the woman who had our file was recently 'released', and a new person put on the case. Guess it was a matter of the first one just allowing things for all through the cracks. We'll see. Thanks for the info! If things don't pick up soon, I may be asking you for Council contact information. Most useful. Regards. Michaelson