Club Obi Wan

I'm having an issue with Wested. I ordered a Custom Raiders on saturday, stating in the extra requests box to check my mail for exact sizes and extra specs.

This was my mail

Here are my exact sizes. Please make sure to follow them, since the standard order form allows just exact numbers (for example 46 instead of 45.5).


Chest at n****e = 43.5 inches
Trunk at navel = 45.5 inches
Neck = 17 inches
Arm at largest point = 14 inches
Shoulder = 10 inches
Sleeve = 24 inches
Back lenght = 25.5 inches
Front lenght = 26 inches


I'm 165 cm tall (65 inches) and my weight is 88 kg (194 pounds).



And here are my requests:

- Gussets
- Lining Type: Cotton body and satin sleeves
- Zip: 5 gauge aluminium zipper with small zipper pull that extends to the bottom of the jacket
- Name Label: Luca Papale
- Collar: Raiders collar to join storm flap half way between zipper and edge
- Side Straps: Length : 8.75 inches (22.3cm), width: 1 inch (2.5cm). Sewn with X box pattern, double stitched
- Side strap buckles: black rectangular slides
- Pockets 7.25” tall x 6.25” wide with scalloped flaps
- Inside pocket: piped pocket
- No leather facing on zipper
- Storm flap 1.5” width with rounded top corner
- Pleat depth 1.5”
- Arm seam 1” below the yoke seam
- Yoke 5”
- Back panel extended all the way out to the arm seam
- Slit (narrow piped) pocket
- IMPORTANT: please, do extra heavy reinforcements on the pockets, pocket flap corners, straps, yolk and armpits.


Please send me a confirm stating you received this mail and attached it to the order.

Thank you for your kind attention,

As you can see, it's a "normal" specs list, not too long. It would have fit the Special Requests box, but I had to give my sizes too, so I decided to use the e-mail.

Today Gemma emails me and says

Dear Sir

Many thanks for your details I will attach this to your order for you and there will be an extra £20 to be charged for this order as this is a custom made that will take extra time. Please confirm then I can process.

Cheers Gemma

ANOTHER 20£? I mean, Custom means "made with special features and measures". So why should I pay another 20 extra pounds, when I already paid 30£ more than the Standard model?

I replied to Gemma this way

Dear Gemma,

I think there might be a misunderstanding here.

On the Wested site, the Standard Raiders Jacket is 135£, while the Custom Made is 165£. So, I already paid the difference between standard and custom, since I ordered and paid for a Custom. I don't understand why I should pay another extra 20£.

If this is due the extra specs list, please notice that many of the things listed here are already included in the standard form (like gussets, lining type and name label). The other specs would have fit the Special Requests box, also included in the standard order form, but I preferred to send the list in a e-mail since I also had to provide my exact measurements. Nowhere on site is specified that asking for special requests would have made the price go up.

I hope we can solve this issue.

Waiting for an answer, I give you my greetings

In the meantime, I'm asking for your advice.

So, guys: what do you think about all this? Did this happen to you too?

For years the standard custom sized jacket (ie back length, chest size, sleeve length and choice of zipper, buckle and lining.) was £145. It's now £165 plus any extra specs, which yours has. There is no upper limit on price, but it does not often add up to more than an extra £20 or £30.

The £135 jackets are completely off the rack and mostly made overseas, so you can get one of those for that price if you want.

But it's written nowhere on the Wested site that Special Requests make the price go up! And Gemma didn't mention this before I placed the order, when I contacted her. This is a little dishonest, in my opinion.

I mean, I buy a custom jacket believing it will cost me the price that is listed, and THEN, when I already paid for it, they ask for more? No, this is not correct. If there is a special requests option, it should be written that choosing this option will make the price go up.

Plus, I talked with a fellow italian Cower, Indiana Strones, who said me he recently ordered a custom jacket with a spec list just a little shorter than mine, and they didn't ask for more money

Well it has been specified elsewhere. They should have a note next to the special request box that says "Additional charges may apply, please enquire before ordering." They do say to enquire about special requests. I mean, you could ask for gold bullion thread, (not that they do it) and you'd expect an upcharge in that case wouldn't you?

They did, in all fairness tell you that it would cost more and asked if you wanted to proceed.

I think Strones has had a couple of jackets from them, I think they get a little more lenient with repeat orders.

I got my custom LC jacket about 6 weeks ago and had just a few less specs than you and they didn't charge me any extra.

Kyle

Yes, but it wasn't exactly your first Wested, was it Knibs

Regards, Geert

They should have a note next to the special request box that says "Additional charges may apply, please enquire before ordering." They do say to enquire about special requests.

Sorry, KT, call me silly but I'm not able to find where they specify that. They not mention it in the order form, anyway.

and I enquired BEFORE ordering, by the way. I sent Gemma an email explaining I had that list to attach, but she said to me to place the order before, and then re-send the list.

Anyway, why should some customers charged more, and not some others?

Restless Dreamer wrote:

They should have a note next to the special request box that says "Additional charges may apply, please enquire before ordering." They do say to enquire about special requests.

Sorry, KT, call me silly but I'm not able to find where they specify that. They not mention it in the order form, anyway.

and I enquired BEFORE ordering, by the way. I sent Gemma an email explaining I had that list to attach, but she said to me to place the order before, and then re-send the list.

Anyway, why should some customers charged more, and not some others?

Wrong or not, most companies tend to "reward" return customers by giving them something extra or giving them some form of discount. Not having to pay for extra specs falls into that category. It also depends on what exactly those specs are that make them different from the spec lists of those who did not have to pay extra. My guess is that the extra costs are for the reinforcements you asked for

Regards, Geert

I've orderd only one jacket from Wested using one of the Holt's list of specs. No extra charges for me.

Wrong or not, most companies tend to "reward" return customers by giving them something extra or giving them some form of discount. Not having to pay for extra specs falls into that category. It also depends on what exactly those specs are that make them different from the spec lists of those who did not have to pay extra. My guess is that the extra costs are for the reinforcements you asked for

still, I don't get why charging me more AFTER I placed the order. as I already said, I don't see any disclaimer near the special requests box.

I hope Gemma can give me more detailed info about that...even if I know she is quite cryptic when answering questions. To be honest, I'm really not interested in paying 20£ more for those specs. If the situation will require it, I will ask to ignore them and proceed with a standard custom, without extra specs. But still, I'm disappointed.

So basically a custom from Wested varies only from the standard in that it is custom sized.
Other requests to pattern changes and requested additions are an up-charge.

Crazylegsmurphy touched on this in his thread

Other requests to pattern changes and requested additions are an up-charge

but this not applies everytime, if I understood well. Bazzano Jones, for example, stated that his jacket - which had Holt's specs - was not charged any extras - and it was not an "old customer discount" since it was his first jacket.

so, which are the criteria about charging or not extra money for extra specs? random?

The last jacket I bought from Wested I used my credit card to pay. It had the agent 5 specs and a Holt collar. I got told the total cost including shipping and I said that was ok by me. Imagine my surprise when an extra 20 pounds is charged to my credit card. I discovered this only when I checked my statement. I emailed Wested about it and was told "that was extra for shipping to Australia".

I have always been charged extra for any extra specs and I have ordered several Westeds back in the day. I had wondered about this as well as some people didn't seem to be charged but I always was. Seemed very arbitrary to me.

The reinforced stitching does carrying an extra charge. I would mind this at all but I had problems in that area anyway (which isn't germaine to this thread).

Clutters wrote: I emailed Wested about it and was told "that was extra for shipping to Australia".

that's simply nonsense in their site there are various shipping options, and Australia is included too. So the extra is already included in the bill you pay. so I guess they messed things up.

I'm starting to dislike these Wested guys

I have always been charged extra for any extra specs and I have ordered several Westeds back in the day. I had wondered about this as well as some people didn't seem to be charged but I always was. Seemed very arbitrary to me.

that's what I think, too. Why charging some, and not some others? I'm confused

It could be that Wested has to "alter" their exisiting pattern for say a size 44 jacket. For example; your waist and shoulder measurements may not be the standard measurement/size for the size 44 jacket pattern so they have to change. I had to pay extra because I wanted specific chest, shoulder, back, and waist measurements that are more then likely different from a regular sized 38 measurements. Since Wested's custom are more or less, pick your chest size, pick you back length, pick you sleeve length and your done, anything above those with regards to waist or shoulder or collar or whatever may cause the extra cost. Thats what I think, if its right or wrong is another story...

TheExit148 wrote:It could be that Wested has to "alter" their exisiting pattern for say a size 44 jacket. For example; your waist and shoulder measurements may not be the standard measurement/size for the size 44 jacket pattern so they have to change. I had to pay extra because I wanted specific chest, shoulder, back, and waist measurements that are more then likely different from a regular sized 38 measurements. Since Wested's custom are more or less, pick your chest size, pick you back length, pick you sleeve length and your done, anything above those with regards to waist or shoulder or collar or whatever may cause the extra cost. Thats what I think, if its right or wrong is another story...

But you're already paying custom prices to have it made to measure. And I don't think that any of the other vendors charge for sizing if you're already paying the price for a custom jacket (one caveat is that I have seen where other jacket vendors--such as military reproductions-- charge more for big sizes). But they don't charge to have the sleeves a certain length or the waist a certain width (and I've had these things done by most of them).

Not trying be argumentative here, you may be correct. But if Wested is charging extra past the custom jacket fee for making the jacket to measure, they would seem to be the only company that does so (at least in my experience).

crismans wrote:But you're already paying custom prices to have it made to measure. And I don't think that any of the other vendors charge for sizing if you're already paying the price for a custom jacket (though I have seen where other jacket vendors--such as military reproductions-- charge more for big sizes). But they don't charge to have the sleeves a certain length or the waist a certain width (and I've had these things done by most of them).

Not trying be argumentative here, you may be correct. But if Wested is charging extra past the custom jacket fee for making the jacket to measure, they would seem to be the only company that does so (at least in my experience).

Crismans, I totally agree with you on everything you say. I probably should have worded mine better, but I think, and this is a BIG I think, that Wested's current custom offering is picking sleeve length, back length, chest size, lining. They charge extra for gussets, extra for an extra inside pocket, so if they need to alter waist measurements, shoulder measurements thats probably why they do that. It doesn't make any sense since they are cutting the leather to size, and if they have to change the size of the waist in regards to the what the pattern states, why is that extra?

Now I don't want this to start a war or anything, but the way Tony Nowak asks for measurements covers all the important ones; chest size, shoulder length, back size across, front length, back length, sleeve length, waist length. These 7 measurements should be the standard when ordering a custom jacket at the minimum. Other vendors ask for even more to make it fit even BETTER, but thats how they do there business.

Again, I don't know if Wested IS charging extra to make it "made to measure" but with my experience it is possible since those additional measurement requests are not outlined on there online order form. This is all my opinion, and it could be right, or it could be wrong.

On my first jacket I only had a couple of specs and had no mention of extra charges, on my second one I had a long list (http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=554042#p554042) and Gemma warned that there might be an extra charge but I got away with it.

I see where you're coming from Exit, and you may very well be right in that collar, waist, etc. measurements are adding to the price. I guess I was more saying that I don't understand this practice (IF, in fact, it's the case) rather than the point you were making. Should have clarified more myself!

crismans wrote:I see where you're coming from Exit, and you may very well be right in that collar, waist, etc. measurements are adding to the price. I guess I was more saying that I don't understand this practice (IF, in fact, it's the case) rather than the point you were making. Should have clarified more myself!

No worries , and you know what... I don't understand it either Crismans its a custom right, so why can't we get a CUSTOM?!?

I noticed that too. When you fill out the custom order, you pay extra for the gussets, etc. There is also a column for 'special requests'. Shouldn't all of these things be a part of the custom order?

RD you have a simple out on this. You can cancel your order.

My distinct impression is that Wested is simply much more ad hoc in its business model and production methods than other vendors. This has the benefit of lowering costs (Westeds are among the cheapest mainstream Indy jackets available), but the downside is that there is a tremendous variety in the jackets themselves as well as individuals' buying experiences.

I agree that things should be clearer, but I will say that it's still awfully impressive that they can do a detailed custom leather jacket for the price. I'm only scared off by the variations and uncertainty of the ordering, but they do seem to be filling customs more accurately these days ... I read fewer complaints and many more very satisfied buyers.

They are a bit of an enigma.

Sad thing is that requests like reinforced stitching have only come as a result of a tendency of Wested's to be reported as having their stitching come apart after a little while. (I'm now also in that boat after just a year.)

SO someone may be on the fence about choosing Wested, have thought "If I ask them to fix X problem, I'll be safe" and then get hit with a belated surcharge for the privilege... Bummer.

Okay, I've deleted about 3 posts trying to find the right words to get my point across without sounding inflammatory. Can't seem to get it right, so I'll chuck it for now and just try a different direction.

RD, I hope Gemma gives you some detailed information on where the extra charge is coming from (I'm guessing stitching but it may be from other things as well). This info would really help in forming an opinion as to what is going on here.

At the risk of being inflammatory; When will people learn?

OK, got that out of my system, and I'll move on. Tibor is right. There have been more happy customer posts here, which is a nice change of pace. But anyone who does any research before buying a Wested has a full-color roadmap of the hazards and limitations of dealing with them. Especially when it comes to customization requests.

Peter himself has tried to make us understand that laundry lists of changes are not something they want to deal with. He tried to put an end to it, but I see lists growing steadily again. Partly, that's Peter's fault for letting it happen. Partly the fault of gearheads who won't take 'no' for an answer.

If you want a good custom Wested, you're best odds are to stay as close to standard as you can, and customize like you would a car at the dealer. If there are 3 stereo options, don't ask for a fourth one not on the list. You are asking for a "no" or a problem.

With that in mind, what does the order in question do that it shouldn't? Specific collar/stormflap arrangement; Exact measures for straps; exact pocket measurements; storm flap measurements; pleat depth; arm seam placement; exact yoke size; reinforced corners. Last I heard, Peter did not consider these things "available options." Do some get it? Yes. Which creates bad precedence.

But if people listened to Peter in the first place and stopped asking, maybe there would be fewer contradictions. I'm not saying that one should "not want" these kinds of customizations, I'm just saying that Wested has been fighting this level of tweaking for several years. But people just won't learn. So, maybe that extra 20 pounds they throw around sometimes is a rap to the knuckles for breaking the rules, which they willfully break to improve customer satisfaction (which was on the decline last year).

You are correct Chewbacca, a precedence has been set with the laundry lists and their acceptance.
People see a price, and are attracted to it because they say it is lower than other makers custom jackets. Problem is they want more than is offered in the custom at that price. When these additional requests have been largely accepted people come to assume it will always be this way.
I suppose what has to be spelled put is exactly what is considered Custom in that price over the standard off-the-rack pre-made jackets. If additional customisation is available it should be made clear what is accepted as addition and at what extra price, if any.

If Wested was consistent about the quality of jackets and applied many of the regular requests about storm flap, yoke/arm seam/back panel config, slit inside pocket, collar config and pocket flap shape as standard there would be no need for laundry lists anymore. Most of the people wouldn't notice the changes made to the Custom ROLA.

hey, gotta lot of posts to reply to ok, let's do it.

RD you have a simple out on this. You can cancel your order.

maaaaany thanks for this useful suggestion, KT

I agree that things should be clearer, but I will say that it's still awfully impressive that they can do a detailed custom leather jacket for the price

you have a point here: their prices are very good. and I would have paid the extra 20£ as well, IF they had said this BEFORE. I mean, I think that jacket is worth a 20 extra pounds, but what irritates me is that it was not clarified in the site that variations on price would have applied. Plus, I don't get which criteria they use for asking more money - if they use any. I'd like to know why some lists are charged extra, and others are not.

RD, I hope Gemma gives you some detailed information on where the extra charge is coming from (I'm guessing stitching but it may be from other things as well). This info would really help in forming an opinion as to what is going on here.

I hope that too

At the risk of being inflammatory; When will people learn?

(I'm not quoting the entire post in order not to make mine too long).

You are completely right, Chew. But you see, it's my first jacket and I didn't know that the spec lists were making problems. I mean, everyone I have heard talking about Wested never mentioned me this extra charge. This comes to a complete surprise to me. So, when will I lear? Well, I have learned the lesson right now Should I ever consider buying another jacket, I would not ask for too many extra specs. But I didn't know anything before placing the order...

If additional customisation is available it should be made clear what is accepted as addition and at what extra price, if any.

totally agreed! They could just write near the Special Requests box "Variation on price may apply", and it would be just fine.

VP wrote:If Wested was consistent about the quality of jackets and applied many of the regular requests about storm flap, yoke/arm seam/back panel config, slit inside pocket, collar config and pocket flap shape as standard there would be no need for laundry lists anymore. Most of the people wouldn't notice the changes made to the Custom ROLA.

Exactly what I was trying to say, VP (see 3 deleted posts comment above). There are certain things that people look for as far as specs go. Sometimes you get these, sometimes you don't. For instance, I ordered a washed lamb Raiders and a washed goat LC around the same time. The Raiders came with D rings and the LC came with the sliders. A simple fix, sure, but details like this should be standardized by now. It seems that a lot of Restless Dreamer's specs were to make sure these details were in place (and as Yojimbo says, to correct some perceived quality problems such as stitches popping around pockets).

If the quality and standard specs were more consistent, it would go along way to eliminate these laundry lists. These lists came about as trying to get the jackets more SA. Fix a few details and most of the common laundry list specs would already be addressed, thus eliminating their need.


But what I'm saying isn't anything new, unfortunately, I've seen this same solution brought up by others without it going anywhere so I have my doubts.

this is an old issue that has been discussed before. I totally agree with you, guys, but we'd better let it go - as far as I know, similar discussions have lead to flame wars in the past.

maybe Peter has got his own business reasons to avoid to add those specs, who knows. for example, details like "no leather facing on zipper", and "smaller zipper that extends to the bottom of the jacket" make a more SA jacket, but even less durable. the point is, no matter how reasonable seems to us that Peter should add these specs in the standard jacket: this ain't gonna happen, it seems.

I've got news for you. I'll post my email exchange with Gemma.

Dear Sir

Many thanks for coming back to me, the extra amount would be for the under arm gussets and you stated you wanted no leather facing which is classed as the ROLA pattern which is extra to have this done.

If you would require just the standard custom raiders jacket there will be no extra charge.

I will await your response.

Cheers Gemma

So it seems that the extra charge was for gussets and the no leather facing...but the gussets price was already included in my bill. So I said her

Dear Sir

I will cancel the no leather facing for you and cut you a standard raiders jacket not the ROLA jacket. Please note all jackets with no leather facing are an extra £20.

Many thanks Gemma

All jackets with no leather facing are an extra 20£, huh? And so why is the ROLA jacket the same price as the Raiders? And why did she mention the gussets in her previous email?

My feeling is Gemma is starting to get a little confused with her job - no offense. She often contraddict herself. This was my answer

Dear Gemma

Thanks for your answer. It's fine with me to cancel the leather facing spec, but please remember to add the other specs included in the list and to follow my sizing guide.

Bye,


LP

Now I really hope she will not forget to add the other specs AND the gussets to my jacket - I paid for the gussets, I want them; the other specs she could miss them, I would not have too many troubles with that, but the gussets...they have to be included.

And I really hope Wested will cut me a right sized jacket

Just wanted to share this story with you. What do you think about it?

RD,
I really hope you get the jacket the way you like it. And Gemma was really confusing in my emails with her. Its better if you call. Sometimes I just wanted to scream! Good luck!

You're right, a call might be useful, but I'm not too good at spoken english. I fear for even more misunderstandings, and a phone call gets lost in the air, while emails stay. Verba volant, scripta manent. I prefer having a written text to which grasp at rather than words, if you know what I mean

Agreed RD. I'm the same way.

What is so funny is that at the university campus I currently work at, they are doing their best to make the campus a 'paperless' society.

They're sending out everything electronically, from news items to official forms to check stubs. What's so funny? Folks then print out a paper copy of the electronic document so they will have a hard copy record for their files.



Regards! Michaelson

unbelievable!

she replied me

Many thanks for letting me no I will now process your order for you.

Cheers Gemma

then she proceeded with the order, and THEN sent me another email

Dear Luca,

I have now processed your order for you, the request for the back yoke we are only able to do this if the jacket is a ROLA. If you decide to go for the ROLA jacket there will be an extra charge of £20 please get back to me and let me no.

Cheers Gemma

so, she processes the order FIRST, stating is everything fine, and THEN says "ah no, you have to change something"!!!

boys, I'm very disappointed...I replied this way

Hi again Gemma.

Sorry, but I have a complain.

You proceeded the order after telling me the only problem was the no leather facing. I agreed to remove that spec and you said that now it was all right.

Then, AFTER proceeding with the order, you are telling me another spec is going to be missed. You should have informed me BEFORE proceeding, I reckon. Why didn't you mention this issue in your last mail?

Plus, I checked on Wested site. ROLA jackets and Standard Raiders jackes are the same price: 165£. So why are you saying that the ROLA is 20 pounds more?

I think things are getting a little confused here. Could you clarify them for me?

Thank you very much,


LP

Well, my opinion about Wested so far is that they are not serious people, and that they try to rip off lame customers.

Please pick up the phone and talk to them.

The changes on a jacket reach a tipping point beyond which they will charge you that little extra. It's because the jacket takes more time to make. More time is more cost to them.

Please talk to them and either sort it out or cancel.

As I said before, I'm not calling them. I risk messing things up even more by calling them. I'm not good at spoken english.

And the matter is not about the extra pounds. Is that Gemma is creating a real MESS about this order, first asking for more money for gussets, then asking to eliminate some specs, and then asking to eliminate others AFTER charging me the bill. This is not a good way to do things. If the yoke was a problem, she should have mentioned it BEFORE proceeding.

If you are not willing to call them then cancel.

At this point you have worked yourself up into such a lather there is no way you will be happy with anything they do.

you're wrong. I'll be happy if they stop asking again and again for more money which I don't have to pay. She can't proceed the order telling me the jacket is going to be the way I want it, and just after taking the money say "naaah, I was joking, ain't gonna happen".

I'm not going to cancel the order for a mistake they commited. I have been clear and precise from the beginning, they have been nebulous and vague. Now I want to see things clear.

Everyone can do a mistake, but it seems to me their mistakes are intentionally made to create confusion in the customer, that's what I think.

I got some news for you. You have no order. Until they accept it, there is no order. Period...

_...they accepted it, and charged my card the money, saying my order was going to be fulfilled except for the no leather facing. this was fine with me. but AFTER charging me the money, they said that ANOTHER spec would have been missed - or I should have paid another 20£.

Practically, they first said one thing, and then another after proceeding the order.

You are smoking crack...

this is what I'd call a flame, but I'll just ignore it.

Wested is perfectly in their rights to charge what they feel is appropriate

yes but it's all about how things are lead. if you say me "the price for the jacket you requested with these specs is TOT", I pay that TOT and expect to have my jacket done the way it should be. you cannot add AFTER charging me the money that my jacket is NOT going to have the specs I wanted.

Not to inflame, but the effort put into this? If you put that much effort into losing a little weight, you might just be able to buy off the rack... Let's get real...

you know, telling a folk he should loose weight is another thing I'd call a flame. but I'll ignore this too, and respond that I'm already following a regime and lost 7 kg in a month and half, just for the record. I don't need a person I don't even know to tell me what to do with my life.

EDIT: I notice you edited your post...

_ wrote:RD - Did they charge your card, or did an authorization get run to make sure the card was good?

they did charge my card. how clearer could I be?

You cannot force somebody to sell something to you if they do not accept the terms.

they did accept the terms! do you read what I write? Gemma told me that they would have made my jacket WITH my specs (except for the no leather facing) for NO extras. Then, AFTER charging my card, she told me that the leather facing was not the only problem.

The weight thing? It was just good advice...

it was not. it is unpolite to say something like that to someone you don't even know, and the way you did.

The smoking crack thing? It was just a logical reading of your behavior...

well I don't know how it feels somking crack so I can't say. maybe you do?

_ wrote:And RD? I am unsubscribing to your posts. I cannot stand the complaining without reason, and you are quite frankly a trainwreck waiting to happen...

it's fine with me Me, I warned the moderators. You are offending me by stating I'm a drug addicted, a trainwreck, a fat guy who should use his efforts to loose weight instead of complaining and some other things I would not exactly call nice. You can have your own ideas and opinion, but you are exposing them in a rude way and I'm not accustomed to let anyone offend me. I hope the moderators can solve our issue and bring back peace.

okay boys. make room in the sandbox for the guard dog.

play nice!