Club Obi Wan

So here is the pants experiment I have discu$$ed with a few of you. Last year I took a vintage pair of 1940's men's trousers that had a great fit on me, and sent the measurements to Magnoli for him to duplicate and combine with his adventure pattern for the pockets front and rear. I had them cut larger in the thigh area so they would be a little baggy, and I had the rise cut higher than most so they fit at my true waist, rather than a little low. This is also based on the vintage pants measurements. They have a much better drape and fit than modern pants do. I also have a pair of Noel Howard pants that are great, but they are off the rack and not tailored for me. I also tried on a pair of Wested pants and had to return them because of the low rise fit, and the lack of leg room for my body type. I was sorry to have to return those, as they had a good look and great fabric.

Now I wanted to try a fabric that I thought would be more screen accurate, and a pattern that I felt more reflected the SA Noel Howard design, based on the photos posted on the Indylounge site. Look over there in general gear for the SA pants details thread. Thanks for all of the photos and drawings to bring this project together. The fabric is 100% Cavalry twill wool in a medium to dark brown color. It was very difficult to track down a source for this. I'll let you decide if you like the color you see in the photo for yourself. This was all I could find after much searching. Normally I wouldn't give my source away, but for years I have been going to B. Black fabric in Los Angeles. I want them to get plenty of business and re-order more of this so they will always have a great selection of this fabric for us in the future. They recently purchased some of the inventory left over from Levine Brothers. Levine brothers was right around the corner from Western Costume in North Hollywood, CA. Last year when I went to Levine's, they said they had supplied fabric to Crystal Skull. That is all they knew. They closed their doors before I could go back, so off to B. Black to buy fabric.

I have photographed a pair of Noel Howard's LC pants - the lighter ones, and the darker more Raiders(?) color is the new Magnoli pants I just received. The jacket you see in the pic is for color reference. This is a Wested novapelle jacket - un aged. Let me know what you think. Perhaps Magnoli can shed some light on the ordering process of these pants should there be other interested parties. Let me know what you think.

This has been a crazy road to follow to get this piece of gear I really wanted dialed in. Now off the the tailor for the military hem.

Indiana Jake

Looking great Jake! Nice work. You definitely have a unique pair of pants. Funny, I was in B. Black today when I sent you the email. They definitely have the best selection of wools. Michael Levine's is right down the street. I don't know if it's the same Levine's but they also told me they supplied fabric to the studio. Cool if so. I spoke to a younger gent with a rich French accent who seemed to really know his wools. Great area down there. I had a lot of fun looking around.

Looking forward to seeing these in person.


W.E.

Hey Indiana Jake,

Wow, they look nice. The color doesn't seem that dark at all. You know, I really envy you guys who just walk into B. Black and Sons (and you know who you are). The Chicagoland area is a long way away from LA. But wait, something is wrong... Wait... I know- you're not wearing the pants! Where's the Indy gear? Come on now. Bag, jacket, shirt, holster... Let's see the whole deal.

Dan S

Alkali,

Thanks for your help. See the whole deal?? Hmmm? With which shirt I might ask? Wait, I can't put it all together till I go to the tailor and have the military hem finished. Just in time for summit, the perfect time for a photo op. Sorry, you will have to wait for the rest of the gear picture.

Jake

Love the darker coloured pants Jake! Would be good to see these listed on Magnoli's site

I agree those are real nice. Just about perfect! The only thing I would alter would be just a little more curve on the scalloping on the pocket flaps. NOT to take away anything from what you have created. I think Magnoli should definitely offer these.


Nice job!

I want a pair of each!!!!!

the Indy world needs more Magnoli gear. he produces very high quality garments and they are very SA.

he gives very good customer service and is a super nice guy!

go Magnoli

So I finally had a chance to get the military hem done in time for the QM Summit. I followed the pants hemming thread, and I'm very pleased with the results of this hemming technique.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=39008

If you should get a pair of these pants from Magnoli or anyone else, be sure there is enough extra fabric added to the length, and that you retain any extra fabric necessary to do a proper job hemming the pants in this manner. I prefer to order my pants long and unhemmed, so I can have them fitted properly by a tailor once I have received them.

Jake

Come on, show a picture while you're wearing them!

They look good, great back pockets! For the colour it would be helpful if you had a pair of Noel's raiders but seems to be ok from the picture.

Indiana Jake wrote:Now I wanted to try a fabric that I thought would be more screen accurate, and a pattern that I felt more reflected the SA Noel Howard design, based on the photos posted on the Indylounge site. Look over there in general gear for the SA pants details thread. Thanks for all of the photos and drawings to bring this project together. The fabric is 100% Cavalry twill wool in a medium to dark brown color. It was very difficult to track down a source for this. I'll let you decide if you like the color you see in the photo for yourself. This was all I could find after much searching. Normally I wouldn't give my source away, but for years I have been going to B. Black fabric in Los Angeles. I want them to get plenty of business and re-order more of this so they will always have a great selection of this fabric for us in the future. They recently purchased some of the inventory left over from Levine Brothers. Levine brothers was right around the corner from Western Costume in North Hollywood, CA. Last year when I went to Levine's, they said they had supplied fabric to Crystal Skull. That is all they new. They closed their doors before I could go back, so off to B. Black to buy fabric.

Jake, I'm kinda curious how Levine ties in to the Magnoli pants. Are you saying that you picked up some fabric from Levine and had Magnoli make a pair of pants with said fabric? Would love to hear more about them!

Levine Brothers was right around the corner from Western Costume. While I was there looking for something else, they told me they supplied fabric to Crystal Skull. Before I could get back again to buy some fabric for pants, Levine closed and sold off their inventory to B. Black. I found my fabric at B. Black and sent it to Magnoli to have the pants made.

I am really happy with the way these pants came out, and I have been working them into my regular wardrobe. Just the other night I was at a party wearing a Wested Jacket which someone quickly recognized. They then saw 405 boots. Now I had to come clean about my Indy pants as well. I offset the Indy gear look with a light blue dress shirt and a vintage tie.

When Magnoli made these pants for me I sent him measurements of a vintage pair of pants that I have from the 1940's. I wanted them to fit higher at the waist (unlike HF's) and fuller in the legs. The look is classic from the era. I love 'em. So the cut may not be SA, but the details are right on.

Indiana Jake

Finally new pics with the pants and all of the gear. Mixed and matched to confuse all those who notice.



Photography by Lion Tamer

Jake,
That's just one picture!
Now that you have our attention, please tell me there's a couple more shots you're going to share...

Mitch,

You're the pro at Indy photos. What did you have in mind?

Jake

Jake,

Can you post an item number or other details on the fabric. I love the color and would order, but not being in the LA area I checked their website and couldn't find anything there. I assume they have a limited selection of fabrics on their site. I'll call the store directly, but it would be helpful to have more details to place an order.

Thanks,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jeff,

I bought the last yards of the bolt so there is no more of it left. They do have some other colors, but the trouble is how difficult it is to find this. Call and ask for color swatches of uniform grade 100% cavalry twill in browns, khakis and tans. I started looking casually over a year ago using the internet and the knowledge that some others had of retailers in high quality men's fabric in Los Angeles. I am not a costumer or tailor, so I do not have access to any other good sources for this. However I'm sure there are others who could point right to it. You will have to hunt down some swatches to find the right fabric. Do what I did and spend hours looking through various websites. What a hassle! IndyRiv was desperately trying to find more of this fabric. I corresponded with him, but never got the name of where he found the fabric. He was looking in the UK which is a good start. New York might also be a good place. He was a member here for a few months and is now off of the list. Not sure why. If he hasn't found it he's really close. Tracking down more of this fabric will be the beginning of an adventure - trust me!

Indiana Jake

I'm right with you. I spent the better part of a year looking for fabric and found some that I really like and had a pair of pants made. The fabric itself is great, but the color is too light for ROLA and just a shade lighter than LC or KotCS.

I didn't realize you had bought the last of their inventory. Maybe if enough of us contact them asking for the fabric you bought they will be more inclined to renew their stock.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jake wrote: IndyRiv was desperately trying to find more of this fabric. I corresponded with him, but never got the name of where he found the fabric. He was looking in the UK which is a good start. New York might also be a good place. He was a member here for a few months and is now off of the list. Not sure why

And gone with him is the excelent list he compiled that detailed places to find Cavalry twill in the colours we need, wish I'd saved it. I'll probably do a bit of hunting myself at some point and try and find some of those suppliers again, some of them were pretty good.

Those trousers look great Jake. very nice indeed

Wow Jake,

Those look great! Too bad the fabric is gone at B Blacks. Well done.

Dan S

One source that IndyRiv mentioned was www.winebergs.co.uk He said they would do made to measure pants with the correct fabric. You are welcome to contact them, but they are an un-tried source for Indy pants. I'm not sure they will sell fabric alone. Perhaps Magnoli can shed some light on getting some fabric that is the uniform grade cav twill. Now if we could all agree on a color!

Indiana Jake wrote:Finally new pics with the pants and all of the gear. Mixed and matched to confuse all those who notice.

Mitch LaRue wrote:Jake,
That's just one picture!
Now that you have our attention, please tell me there's a couple more shots you're going to share...

Indiana Jake wrote:Mitch, You're the pro at Indy photos. What did you have in mind?
Jake

I'm no pro, but I sure DO appreciate the compliment!


Anyway, sorry for the confusion, Jake... I didn't mean that I wanted you to take more photos... I just meant that you had said "new pics" (plural)... so, I was just giving you a "I'd love to see MORE of them, please!" But if you don't have any others, that's fine... I'm glad for what you've shown us.
They're great looking pants, that's for sure!

My gear is pretty much where I want it short of a little distressing and aging. So now I don't have any excuses which makes it time to consider some new photo adventures in my gear.

Indiana Jake

These pants are amazing, probably one of the most SA colors I have seen. Cavalry Wool Twill is extremely hard to find now, I think in the U.K. they do have it, but it is pretty expensive if you are getting it from another country. At least that is what was said from another person here on COW who is not a member anymore. Is there any of the fabric left over from the hem work that maybe someone could take a sample or maybe even send a sample to Magnoli. I will probably buy another pair from Wested in the future, cause they turned out so well the first time around, unless there is a discovery of more of this color in the Cavalry Wool Twill

IndianaChris

If Magnoli doesn't already have a piece of this left over, I will send a piece to him if he wants it. There may be top men working on it right now.

Indiana Jake

Yes, I have a swatch of your cavalry twill. And I am working on my own batch at the moment...

Kind regards,
Indy

Indy Magnoli wrote:Yes, I have a swatch of your cavalry twill. And I am working on my own batch at the moment...

Kind regards,
Indy

Well looks like you have your Top Man working on the job. Sounds great Magnoli, I hope you find some of this fabric.

IndianaChris

Has nailing the color always been the biggest roadblock in getting SA Raiders pants?

generalFROSTY wrote:Has nailing the color always been the biggest roadblock in getting SA Raiders pants?

No, the biggest was getting the back pockets right. The colour has hardly been a problem because there has always been Noel Howard's product as reference.

Erri wrote:

generalFROSTY wrote:Has nailing the color always been the biggest roadblock in getting SA Raiders pants?

No, the biggest was getting the back pockets right. The colour has hardly been a problem because there has always been Noel Howard's product as reference.

What were the factors that were holding back getting the pockets right? I am looking forward to seeing more pics of these. I currently have a pair of LL Bean 'taupe' colored pants that I use for my gear. They fall on my body just like Indy's pants, the color is close, it has pleats and back pocket flaps. Pretty good for Indy pants, I will stick with them for now and wait until later on and decide if I want to upgrade...but I haven't yet upgraded my Joker pants to Magnoli's Joker pants so any Indy stuff from Magnoli will have to be put on a wait list!

generalFROSTY wrote:

Erri wrote:

generalFROSTY wrote:Has nailing the color always been the biggest roadblock in getting SA Raiders pants?

No, the biggest was getting the back pockets right. The colour has hardly been a problem because there has always been Noel Howard's product as reference.

What were the factors that were holding back getting the pockets right?

None really. Just that most of buyers didn't care of 100% accuracy on this piece of gear for some reason, so vendors could't be bothered changing their design for those few who were claiming that back pockets were not correct. Last Crusade-ish pockets have always been the most common.

When I met Noel Howard I told him about the Raiders pockets issue of course (I am one of those die-hard fan of correct pockets). He said he would have changed the design and make it identical to the screen used pair he had, as soon as he had some time (at that time he was just going to start working on a new project). However he never had the time as he, sadly, passed away while he was still working abroad.

Aside from Noel no other vendor ever really cared of making them right so much that some members had to start making trousers themselves in order to try and get the correct pockets (PLATON pops up in my mind).

So finally in 2010 perhaps this issue will be forgotten once and for all. After the success of the new pattern all other vendors will copy it and all the indygeardom will benefit from it

Thanks for the info.
Are we expecting this level of quality and accuracy from Todd's upcoming offering?
I know he has plans on doing them in wool and in the appropriate Raiders color and has had considerable input from gearheads.
Considering his price points on his other items his Raiders pants should be a great buy. I'm currently using the LL Bean 'close enough' pants - really great, but if there is better out there, I know I will want to go after it.

generalFROSTY wrote:Thanks for the info.
Are we expecting this level of quality and accuracy from Todd's upcoming offering?

Precisely. I expect no less

Erri wrote:

generalFROSTY wrote:Has nailing the color always been the biggest roadblock in getting SA Raiders pants?

No, the biggest was getting the back pockets right. The colour has hardly been a problem because there has always been Noel Howard's product as reference.

Hey All,

There have been other problems besides the back pockets. As of this writing, no one has gotten most of the details correct, which is a shame as Wested had the screen used pants (and patterns for same) and has apparently done nothing about it. Even Magnoli, who makes a very nice product (by all acounts) hasn't gotten the "false waste band" right yet.

Pleats, color, and a pointy back pocket flap aren't the only details to copy. In the jacket section, folks go on endlessly trying to get the exact look of a particular sceen, and will custom order three or four jackets until it's right. That's real dedication! The hat section is the same. This maker has the right kind of felt, but the wrong color, or this hat maker bashes better, or has a better ribbon. And let's not even mention about whips!

I really hope Todd can get this right. I'd love to see more disscusion on what the right details even are. I started this thread: http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=44513 . Just cause you've got a good hat and jacket, (and whip) doesn't necesarily mean that your pants (and shirt?) don't matter. We've got more disscusion on bag strap buckles and widths than on pant's details I think!

Anyway, sorry about the rant. I'm really excited to see what Todd comes up with.

Dan S

There have been other problems besides the back pockets. As of this writing, no one has gotten most of the details correct, which is a shame as Wested had the screen used pants (and patterns for same) and has apparently done nothing about it. Even Magnoli, who makes a very nice product (by all acounts) hasn't gotten the "false waste band" right yet.

No offence to Magnoli but I still have to see a very screen accurate product from him. Don't hang me for this statement people. The trousers in discussion here are nice but I'm talking in general. If I had to put on a scale of screen accuracy products from all vendors I would never put any Magnoli's product on the top 3 for any of the gear parts.

Wested only recently had access to those screen used trousers but Peter has not yet changed the pattern because he has very little time to do so. Too many jacket projects. I know he will eventually do it though.
Todd beat him on time but I won't mind having 2 accurate trousers offers, one from Todd one from Peter in the future.

As for the other details, most of them were unknown until very recently. The Wested trousers were are a copy of MBA trousers, and not a particularly good copy either. Don't know if they were corrected in later years but in 2005 they came with a crotch that could reach your knees... no just kidding, but it was a too low crotch.

So as I said, we could indeed summarize that the pockets were the main element that was shamefully most overlooked by all vendors until now. Considering that the waistband details were unknown to most until recently, that the colour was already known through Noel Howard products and even the military seam was noticed on screen and confirmed by Mr. Howard.
(I could say that the belt-loops were the second most overlooked element, here is just an example I have in hand... http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq10 ... nts001.jpg )

I hate to contradict, but the false waistband on the recently new pants that I had Magnoli make do indeed have the correct detail. When you compare the waistband of the NH next to the ones I had made, you can see what he did to copy it. And don't worry Erri, I won't hang you.
I also purchased Magnoli's 'regular' Indy adventure pants. While they are still a great pair of pants, they are indeed not the same pattern or fabric of the NH pants I had him copy. (You can see how this pants project has cost some $seriou$ R&D)
As far as NH pants having too low of a crotch - I say just pull them up! These are pants were made for an actor patterned after pants that were supposed to look like they were made in the 1930's. However because they were originally patterned in the 1980's they may have a rise unique to whatever the costumer was doing to suit HF's taste and still look like period trousers. No offense Erri, but so many young kids are wearing their jeans and pants extremely low in the rise and can't understand why a pair of traditional men's trousers or pants before 1960 come up so high on the waist. Some people are basically not accustomed to this fit. I know my father and grandfather would understand it. All I can say is that it in my humble opinion it looks a lot better. The pants you see me wearing in the pic do indeed have a high rise and they fit me fine. However we all do have different body types. Trousers with a good fit is usually is the result of good tailoring and pattern making.

I do agree that the belt loops are shorter than the NH loops in the picture. I have enough fabric to correct this at some point.

Indy pants are quite a simple and straightforward pair of pants and we have gotten by with close-enough's for some time. I do hope anyone attempting to make these pants as a regularly offered piece of gear truly nails it. That has not been done. Like jackets, hats and whips, we are starting to notice more of these details. With so many other pieces of gear that are first rate, it is time for the pants to be done right.

Indiana Jake

The wested have a low crotch, not NH. You misunderstood me. the NH pair I have is totally fine (and beloved).
You confirmed my words in a way, to get anything near screen accuracy from Magnoli, you have to custom order. If you order regular stuff it's not up to the level of details of some other brands. As I said your trousers are looking nice and they are by far the best I've seen from Magnoli.

Anyway I'm not as young as you think. Low jeans were not in fashon when I was in high school and I've never owned a pair. Always had old-school clothing mostly. I can judge when a low crotch is too low.

You might be surprised to know that I also share Ford's 80's waist (33")... I could safely say that if the crotch of a pair of trousers look way too low on me, it means it's definitely not screen accurate, as the waist/crotch ratio is not correct. However it is on NH trousers, gladly.

This is a low crotch (wested) http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... G_2023.jpg and http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... ad7ac2.jpg
This is a proper one (NH) http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... 0b5f70.jpg

Erri,

My misunderstanding regarding the Wested trousers. Yes, the Wested crotch is too low. I bought a pair, tried them on and quickly returned them for this very reason. Strange pattern or cost cutting? I do agree that the NH pants do have a higher rise and a better fit.

As for your pictures, all of the pants you show look good on you, and I do not see the difference in rise from these views. That being said, I'm glad that you are happy with the higher rise fit. It works! If I only had a 33 inch waist again!

As far as your age, that comment was only to offend everyone younger than you and me who wears low jeans and doesn't understand what a good pair of mens' trousers should fit like. A high rise is practically foreign to them. I'm done with low rise jeans, and the people who shouldn't be wearing them. They only look their best if you're in really good shape. I do hope this style disappears very soon.

Indiana Jake

Indiana Jake wrote:...that comment was only to offend everyone younger than you and me who wears low jeans and doesn't understand what a good pair of mens' trousers should fit like...I'm done with low rise jeans, and the people who shouldn't be wearing them...I do hope this style disappears very soon.

(Fox crosses his fingers in salute to these words of Jake's and quietly begins humming "Pants on the Ground" to himself...)

Indiana Jake wrote:I hate to contradict, but the false waistband on the recently new pants that I had Magnoli make do indeed have the correct detail. When you compare the waistband of the NH next to the ones I had made, you can see what he did to copy it.
Indiana Jake

Hey Indiana Jake,

I can see that your pants are done right (by special request) but does that mean Magnoli has changed the pattern for all "Indy" pants? Other than some nit-picking around the belt loops, you've got really accurate pants, but that was all by request. I don't think anyone makes pants as accurate as yours are- yet. (Todd?) Just saying, our favorite vendors have been slacking off about the pants. And more than just the back pockets.

Dan S

The pants that Jake received are the standard Adventure Pants pattern now.

Kind regards,
Magnoli

That is awesome Magnoli!!! So is the darker Raiders color wool cavalry twill standard now or are you still working on that?

Hey Indy Magnoli,

That is excellent news! Well done sir! Keep it up!

Now about those belt loops...http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=44513

Dan S

The standard color is still the dark khaki in wool blend, but we're working on doing a custom run of fabric just for these pants shortly. Dropped belt loops are also standard, just need to make sure they are making them consistently long enough.

Kind regards,
Indy

Indy Magnoli wrote:The standard color is still the dark khaki in wool blend, but we're working on doing a custom run of fabric just for these pants shortly. Dropped belt loops are also standard, just need to make sure they are making them consistently long enough.

Kind regards,
Indy

Very good news Magnoli, you are the Top Man for the job. I will be watching this post quite frequently since there will be a custom run of this fabric that looks like it will be done. Very good news indeed. Keep up the great work Magnoli.

I'm glad to see that this project has had a slight ripple in the Indygear community. I look forward to seeing the next pair of pants that someone on COW orders with this new batch of wool that Magnoli is getting. When you order some, I might suggest that you request a third or quarter of a yard extra fabric to have on hand so you can get the military hem done by a local tailor.
Did I forget to mention how happy I am with these pants?

Indiana Jake

Indiana Jake wrote:One source that IndyRiv mentioned was http://www.winebergs.co.uk He said they would do made to measure pants with the correct fabric. You are welcome to contact them, but they are an un-tried source for Indy pants. I'm not sure they will sell fabric alone. Perhaps Magnoli can shed some light on getting some fabric that is the uniform grade cav twill. Now if we could all agree on a color!

I was just looking over this thread again and enjoying those nice pictures of that great pair of pants (something I've done several times now)... and I realized that there was something I meant to mention before (and in response to Jake mentioning that LINK above):
On the Main Page of the Winebergs website go to the selction banner near the top of the page and click on the "Cloth Gallery"... now scroll down the new page and click on the "Cavalry Twill (Cloth Code TW/CT)" button...
Take a look at that "Fawn" color...

Looks pretty nice (to my eyes, at least)

http://www.winebergs.co.uk/department/cloth-gallery/

Trousers available from £89.95

What about mid grey?

Mid grey looks good, not sure what color jake got though. There is always that redish tint in the Raiders pants, although the mid grey looks very nice.

IndianaChris