Club Obi Wan

Let me preface this by saying that I'm probably not in the position to buy a new jacket in the very near future, but I have afew questions for later down the road...

Now, to business. I've had my Todds Standard for nearly 18 months now, and wear it all the time. I haven't really had any durability issues with it, but at some point down the road, I would like to get something a little more rugged and durable, preferably something in goat. I've been looking around at all of the vendors and am somewhat overwhelmed. I wouldn't spend more than $500 at the very most (so that rules out Tony). Also, if possible, I would like to avoid buying internationally, (which would rule out Wested and Magnoli) as I've heard it can be quite expensive and can cause problems if I were to go the custom route and something not fit right. So I've been looking at the US Wings goat Indy jackets and the G&B Expeditions in goat, the latter being at the top end of my budget, though from its reputation, worth every penny. I have a few questions about the fit of both of these... First off, I need a size 36 (which also rules out Wested OTR). The Expedition comes in 36S, R, and T, according to the website; however, they don't have a chart that gives the measurements of an Expedition in say, 36R. Do any of ya'll happen to have, or know the measurements (chest, sleeves, length, etc.) of an Expedition in size 36? Or should I email them?
The Wings jacket comes in a small, which according to the website corresponds to a size 36, but I've read on here where people have said that the Wings jackets run somewhat big, in which case a small probably wouldn't fit me. And Wings also doesn't give the measurements for their different sizes of jackets either. (And by 'fit' I mean 'fit like an Indy jacket should', not 'I could wear this.)

I realize that this was long and I apologize for any incovenience/boredom/frustration it may have caused. I'm just a bit overwhelmed. But I'll greatly appreciate any feedback you guys could give me.

Thanks,
-Bogart

you've already narrowed your options by a lot

One option you didn't mention is a custom from Todd's

Email or call Jessica at G&B. She'll give you the finished jacket's measurements. Good luck!

V/R,
DLJ

Yeah, I've narrowed it down...somewhat. I mean, if I end up having to go the custom route I could go with Wested (preferable, due to price, but I've read stories where getting what you want, communication, etc. have been hit-or-miss) or Magnoli. But I did have Todd in the back of my mind as well, the only thing is that he only offers lamb or cow, and I would prefer goat...but cow is very durable too...and Todd's jackets are very SA, IMO (though I'm not a stitch Nazi). I guess it just depends on what I find out about the fit of the US Wings and the Expedition. Then I could decide if I could do OTR, or need to get custom.

-Bogart

"Stitch Nazi". I like that.

You posted about 10 seconds before me Dragonlady, but thanks, I'll definitely do that.

Thanks,
-Boagart

Oh, and does mentioning that you're a COW member do anything for you as far as service and/or price goes at Wings or G&B?

So many options...so little money! I feel you brother. I once saw a button that was a satire of the old "So many women..., so little time" cliche. It said "So many women...., so few talk to me.

Yeah Rundquist, that's the one problem with this obsession - er...hobby: too little money!

I just emailed G&B and Wings, so now I just have to wait and see what they say.

-Bogart

When I've emailed USWings i usually get a response from Sgt Hack himself, so don't be surprised if you do.

I sound like a stuck record when smaller guys ask about Wings jackets.

I wear a 40 short, then I gave my measurements to Wings when getting an A2 they sent me a medium. It DROWNED me.

Eventually I got a XS, it still feels a little roomy!

For the price, with nothing about it custom, I've never felt G&B has much of an Indy vibe. USW are good quality jackets but with accuracy issue. There's also Todd's custom jacket. Or keep saving.

First off, RC, who is Sgt. Hack?

Second, KT, if I wear a 36 there's pretty much no way I can wear a USW and it look like an Indy jacket?

And lastly, Raider S, the Expo appeals to me b/c of its tank-like construction (from what I've read). But, do you know if a Todd's custom a very solid jacket as well? If so, that may be a possible option.

And, btw, I'm 5'9" and about 130 lbs., so based off of that do you guys think i would probably have to go with a custom jacket?

Thanks again for the help guys,
-Bogart

Oh, and Raider, the reason I probably wouldn't save up for a Nowak is because personally I just don't think I could justify spending $750+ on a jacket. They're incredible jackets, don't get me wrong, but personally I don't think I could spend that on a jacket. Nothing against those that have them. Really, that's awesome. But that's just me.

Sgt Hack is the CEO of US Wings.

You can find his story on their web site. Interesting man who has led an interesting life.

don't discount a US Wings yet, it may fit you.

On the Todd's Custom, I was leaning toward his custom jacket in cow, so I asked for samples, and was very impressed with the lamb he was sourcing. It was really a good hide, very supple. Jackets made from other vendors are more substantial than the Standard that you may be used to, and if you decide to go Wested, etc., you may want to look into the slimmer, '80's' cut. Also, Wested sleeves will be significantly larger in diameter than the Standard, unless you request otherwise. Vendors will send leather samples at your request, and you can narrow your choices based on the type of leather you most prefer. These samples will generally give you a good preview.

I've owned a Todd's custom and it was very well made.

Texan Scott, do you have a Todd's custom? If so could you post a pic or two?

Crismans, was your Todd's cow or lamb? And if you have 'em can you post pics?

Thanks again guys for all your input. The jacket things is a bit overwhelming for someone who doesn't know a whole lot about jackets.

Thanks,
-Bogart

IndianaBogart wrote:
Second, KT, if I wear a 36 there's pretty much no way I can wear a USW and it look like an Indy jacket?

I've not heard of someone your size having success with USW, they do make kids sized ones but I suspect you might be too tall for one of those to work.

Maybe get the biggest one of those plus the smallest adult Indy they make to try out. I don't know their restocking policy, it may not be too bad.

Wings jackets are cut too big to fit well for someone who wears a 36, IMO. Go with Gibson & Barnes, or do the custom order with Wested. Ordering from Wested isn't that scary or anything. For a made-to-measure jacket from England, the price is unbeatable. If you do go with Wested, don't get too hung up on a bunch of custom SA details. Their standard jacket is just fine. I'm very tempted to check out their horsehide, which might be a leather to consider for your more durable jacket.

also in case you weren't aware the us wings goat indy is such a dark brown its almost black in colour.

I've previously had a wested (lamb) and a Todd custom (cow). I much prefered the Todd - it just captured the look better.... I'm now waiting for a Magnoli as the ones I've seen have been first class - I have high hopes!

I was really tempted to get a Todd's custom, but haven't yet. The lamb he was sourcing was high quality. Bogey, if I were in your shoes, with your options, I might be tempted to go with a custom Wested, and request all the leather that you might be interested in. I have or have had a dark brown lamb, authentic brown lamb, washed goat, soft goat, and copper novapelle. Depends on what you are looking for, but you might really like the washed goat? Their new copper novapelle, which is distressed cow is an excellent hide. However it may be heavier than you may be wanting? I have a soft goat, and it was very pliable, but very shiny out of the package. With the 'ol tried and true, water treatment method, you can 'make it your own'. Top hides from my perspective: authentic brown lamb, washed goat, soft goat, copper n/p. You can use your std. to tweak a custom's measurements, no matter which you choose, like total length, sleeves, gussets, hidden snap at the end of the storm flap, pocket placement/size, etc. depending on the features you like most. PM if I can help further.

I had the washed cowhide, which was a very nice, soft leather. Seemed like it would really hold up as well. It felt too short to me, so I sold it to gi_canuck who has a thread about it around here somewhere, probably around page 2 or 3.

I have a Wested HH. Where it has worn, the hide is gray underneath, which I don't like. If that wouldn't bug you, the hide seems resilient. If you go the custom route, ordering from Wested is a little bit of a roll of the dice (which I know from experience). I'd familiarize myself with how some have taken steps to put luck more in their favor.

Ordering an off the rack is very straightforward.

Ok, so I just got an e-mail from Sgt. Hack, letting me know that he would forward my e-mail to some one in another department to get the measurements I requested. He said it should take a few days, but from what I've been hearing on here, I'm leaning to toward ruling out the Wings jacket, because A) the fit seems like it will prbably be too big B) I was not aware that their goat was nearly black. So, I'll of course wait until I hear back from them, but I'll probably rule USW out. Now I just have to hear back from G&B...

As for the custom thing, I'm not opposed to it (and I'll most likely have to go that route if I want something besides a Todd's standard). Price-wise, Wested seems to be the way to go, due to the fact that they're about $200 cheaper than Magnoli and Todd (as for customs charges, I have no idea. ). They also have the most types of hides. Still, I just seem to read people's horror stories about waiting months for jackets, and not getting returned emails/phone calls, and getting the jacket wrong, and cancelling their orders, etc. And also I've read where some people have said that they don't think that they're the most durable jackets. And that's what I'm wanting: a durable, hard-wearing Indy jacket. Which is why I would prefer goat due to it being stronger than lamb, but not weighing a ton like horse. So if I were to go the custom route, it woudl be between Magnoli (possibly), Todd, or Wested. Todd seems to be the easiest one, simply because he's in the states, his jacket is super SA, but no goat. Magnoli can do anything you want, and I've not really heard anything bad about his jackets. Wested, cheaper, plenty of hides to choose from, but I don't know how hard-wearing it would be.

Again, I'm really sorry about sounding like a complete newb, and probably driving you guys crazy.

Thanks for all the help,
-Bogart

Okay, for durability, custom fit, and around $500 (since you mentioned Magnoli, I'm assuming this is around your budgetary limit) I'd go for the Magnoli. There's not a ton said about his jackets here but everything I've heard has been positive. He offers full customization and the price listed includes shipping (like you, I'm not sure of custom charges).

If you're good in OTR sizes, then a G and B might be right up your alley. I've owned one and they are super tough. Tank tough isn't an exaggeration. Now, for what I'm about to say no amount of will save me. Many here absolutely swear by them, but I'm not a huge fan. They just lack "soul" (for lack of a better word) to me. A great jacket but I just don't get an Indy vibe off it, although they certainly look the part. The leather is almost too tough, too smooth, to give me that Indy vibe. But this is just my opinion, and I'd say I'm definitely in the minority here.

I'm on a strict budget right now so I understand how $200 or so can be a lot, but I wouldn't go the cheap route if you're wanting a jacket that lasts.

Kt Templar wrote:

IndianaBogart wrote:
Second, KT, if I wear a 36 there's pretty much no way I can wear a USW and it look like an Indy jacket?

I've not heard of someone your size having success with USW, they do make kids sized ones but I suspect you might be too tall for one of those to work.

Maybe get the biggest one of those plus the smallest adult Indy they make to try out. I don't know their restocking policy, it may not be too bad.

I'd contact bink and ask him, as I believe he can tell you of his experience with the smaller sized Wings, if you're interested.

As to discount, definitely tell them you're a COW member when dealing with Wings. You DO get a discount from them.

Regards! Michaelson

Crismans, did I read that right? Magnoli's price of $495 includes shipping from New Zealand? If so, that's definitely a good thing. Magnoli could be within my budget, but that, along with Todd's custom is at the very top end of my budget. You also mentioned OTR, which I'm looking into right now. I've emailed G&B about the measurements. I'm just not a real big guy and I need a 36, (which rules out Wested OTR) and sometimes that's even a tad big. And I'm gonna be even more picky than usual because I want it to fit like an Indy jacket should. And like you, I'm on a budget, but I don't want to get too cheap and then spend more in the long run on a replacement(s).

Thanks,
-Bogart

Ok, I just got a size chart from USW emailed to me, but I can't make anything out of it, maybe you can? (Well, I can figure out some of it.)

Chest (in half) 21 (XS) 22 1/2 (S)
Sweep (relaxed and in half) ??? 19 (XS) 20 1/2 (S)
Back Length 27 1/4 (XS) 27 1/4 (S)
Cross shoulder 18 1/4 (XS) 19 1/4 (S)
Cross Back ??? 15 3/4 (XS) 16 3/4 (S)
Cross chest ??? 16 1/4 (XS) 17 1/4 (S)
Arm hole (how do I measure that?) 24 1/4 (XS) 25 (S)
Upper arm (in half) 9 3/8 (XS) 9 3/4 (S)
Sleeve opening (relax and in half) ??? 5 3/8 (XS) 5 3/8 (S)
Sleeve length (from CB) (center back?) 33 3/4 (XS) 34 1/2 (S)
Neck circumference 17 3/4 (XS) 18 1/2 (S)
Collar height at CB ??? 4 1/2 (XS) 4 1/4 (S)
Collar point ??? 5 (XS) 5 (S)



I've already pretty much ruled out USW, but I figured I would just check out the fit before I rule it out for sure.
Is it just me, or does 27 1/4 seem awfully long for an Indy jacket?

-Bogart

Well the chest measurement given for a small would fit a 40 well.

Do any of you guys happen to know if/how much Wested adds to the chest measurement? i.e. Would a 36 measure exactly 36 inches around/18 inches across? Or do they add a few inches, making it more like 40 or 42 inches around?

Thanks,
-Bogart

I just got an e-mail back from Jessica at G&B and she said that the chest measurements for a 36 is actually 47 inches, which, being 11 inches bigger than I need, I'm gonna rule out. So that's the Expo taken out of the equation. And I've gone ahead and marked off the USW due to the length being too long, and hearing about the goat being nearly black, as well as other accuracy issues.

Have you checked with Todd or Magnoli?

I've looked in to Todd and Magnoli briefly. Of the two, I would most likely go with Magnoli. Nothing against Todd, I've got lots of his stuff, but some one made a fair point when they said (in another thread) that Todd's makes jackets, whips, bag straps, etc, etc. And Magnoli's jacket maker makes jackets, and only jackets. Also, Magnoli offers goat, which is what I'm looking for, and Todd doesn't.
As of right now, I've really got it narrowed down to Wested or Magnoli. I'm just trying to look at this from a financially wise perspective too. I've kind of re-thought my budget and, as a college student, I am really having a hard time justifying a $500 jacket. I can do $300-330, but I don't know if I can let myself spend $500...on a jacket; firearms are another story....

-Bogart

I don't think Todd has one manufacturer that makes all he sells, and neither does Magnoli

RCSignals wrote:I don't think Todd has one manufacturer that makes all he sells, and neither does Magnoli

Ah, I guess that serves me right for just putting what I saw someone else say one in another thread and not doing any real research. Sorry about that.

-Bogart

I have a Wested ROTLA Goat that I bought probably close to 10 years ago, and it has held up EXTREMELY well. I wear it quite often, and can't hardly get it to distress. I've worn it a lot training horses, working in the rain, chainsawing trees, etc, etc and it still looks almost new. very tough. I contacted Peter, and at his suggestion went to a tailor, had my measurements taken and forwarded those to him, and within a few weeks had my jacket. It fits a little snug, and always has, but I think that's pretty SA for Raiders.

RaidersBash wrote:I have a Wested ROTLA Goat that I bought probably close to 10 years ago, and it has held up EXTREMELY well. I wear it quite often, and can't hardly get it to distress. I've worn it a lot training horses, working in the rain, chainsawing trees, etc, etc and it still looks almost new. very tough. I contacted Peter, and at his suggestion went to a tailor, had my measurements taken and forwarded those to him, and within a few weeks had my jacket. It fits a little snug, and always has, but I think that's pretty SA for Raiders.

;0

It's posts like this that make my decision difficult. I hear great stories like this one, where you've had your jacket for 10 years, which makes me want to get a Wested. And then I hear others about people getting theirs and something happening to it in under a year, without putting any real wear and tear on it, which makes me hesitant.

-Bogart

It's the one I'm wearing in my Avatar), but I'll take some pics this morning and post them (i'm such a pic. posting nut I can't believe I got hit with THE BANNERS!!!)

To recap: approx 10 year old Wested ROTLA in Goat, worn often, used and abused. The goat is unbelievably strong and resistant to wear. A cowhide this old would look so distressed at this point, and the goat shows hardly anything.

RB, that looks terrific. It looks like a very well-loved and worn leather jacket should. And you haven't had any problems with it? Construction, etc.?

Thanks for the pics, btw.

-Bogart

That 'ol goat is really holding up well. I've got a new goat and I plan on beating the B-movies out of it, as soon as possible!

IndianaBogart wrote:RB, that looks terrific. It looks like a very well-loved and worn leather jacket should. And you haven't had any problems with it? Construction, etc.?

Thanks for the pics, btw.

-Bogart

Sorry it took a a bit to reply. I was out of town.

I haven't had any problems with the jacket. Like I said, I followed Peter's advice and went to a tailor to have my measurements done. The jacket has always fit a little snug for my liking, but I think for Raiders that's probably accurate. I've worn it in the rain several times, have worked horses in it, bucked lumber with chainsaws and all kinds of other activities and it still looks almost perfect. I do clean it from time to time with different leather care products (whatever is handy, sometimes neatsfoot oil, sometimes mink oil, i'm not real particular). There is a slight discoloration on the front that shows up in the pics, along the storm flap around pocket height, and that came from moving a car battery...go figure. don't think it was the acid, but there's so much stuff that gets mixed in with the dirt and grease under a hood, who knows...

Thanks for input, RB. And like I said, it looks great. Thanks for posting the pics.

-Bogart

US Wings measurements are screwy. Over 27 inches in length for an XS! For someone who actually needs an XS, (5'6" or so) the jacket would come down past mid-thigh...

I'd meant to mention this the other day. Goat is an 'ok' hide, and it is known for its toughness. If you were to choose a hide based on its strength alone, it would be a 'no-brainer'. We've seen A-2 goat hide jackets in museums that are 60+ years old, and look just about as new as the day they were first produced. Regular goat hide has a plastic-y feel and consistency, and would not be my first choice, jmho. Even Peter, who sources that hide says that it is not a popular leather, but if you have to go goat, the washed goat is one of the best goat hides you can get. Soft like lamb, pre-distressed and easy to mark, it is one of the higher quality hides for an Indy jacket, as these most recent threads (jrabbit and others) have pointed out. The consistency of washed goat feels more like a slightly thicker, supple lamb jacket than regular goat hide.

Regular goat hide has a plastic-y feel and consistency...

I'll agree with that. My goatskin jacket felt like vinyl when I first got it. It broke in really well, but there is a little bit of that plastic feel carrying over. I'm not so keen on pre-distressed hides though. They look a bit fake. I'd rather break them in myself, I think.

So, if goat then washed goat? Cause I've already seen some washed goat jackets that looked really good. (Jrabbit, etc.) And if not goat, then what do you recommend next?

-Bogart

Washed goat.

..which I assume is an acid wash.

There are goatskins available that don't have that "plasticky" feel at all. I had a goat Wolverine jacket from Magnoli that didn't feel a bit like plastic, and my G and B in goatskin didn't have the texture described. In addition, I've had swatches from other vendors that also didn't didn't feel that way.

So goatskin that is very nice to the touch is out there if you look around.

My G&B has the plastic feel and so does my Wested, soft goat. I've noticed though that the G&B lamb is totally different in appearance and has alot of character. Don't get me wrong, its a viable hide, but not my first choice. More of a preference issue, of any of the goat hides, washed goat is the best I've seen.