Club Obi Wan

This has been bothering me ever since I joined these forums.

I've long noticed with my jackets, and from watching this forum, is that the fit of an Indy jacket on even the closest S.A. body type is off...

NOTE: To make things easier, I've included the following photo. I will use TX to refer to the yellow line, and BX to refer to the red.



Looking through the pictures of Indy standing completely still, I've paid attention to the distance that both TX and BX try to illustrate... In other words, the part of the jacket which exposes the shirt.

I won't post pictures of Indy (except for the following one), as those are easily found... But looking at them, it is hard to imagine that Ford could comfortably zip his jacket all the way up. There just is so much space between both collar ends, for example, and in the body of the jacket as well.

Now some of you may say that the jacket is flaring inwards to create this illusion. That the straps may be tightened. That the lower the jacket goes, the wider the distance between those zipper teeth gets. But if that was the case, there would be an upside-down "V" shape to that distance. I've stubbornly had Westeds and Nowaks made that tried to emulate that idea, and they always came back with a prominent "V" shape, despite what logic would say.

Indy's jacket has a nice straight line down the zipper. Not a diagonal line, but a relateively nice straight line. Which I assume, going by simple logic, would mean that the distance of TX would be proportional (and very close) to the distance of BX. If one were to get a jacket that could comfortably zip up, however, the measurement of TX would be very small.

Now an argument here may be that the collar ends are pushed apart, giving the illusion of a longer TX. However, consider that Ford does alot of pacing, alot of action, and doesn't spend time toying with his collar, yet the distance of TX still remains relatively intact.

I know I'm geeking out abit here, but that's the point of this forum, isn't it?

I guess my point is that Ford's jacket probably needs several things going for it here... A collar measurement that is smaller than Ford's, a chest measurement that is smaller than Ford's, and a bottom width measurement that is smaller than Ford's. This would give it that nice look that a well fitting jacket wouldn't have.

And what would I consider a well-fitting jacket? A jacket that can be zipped without looking like you're about to burst the seams!

That's probably why most of the jackets I've seen (on CoW) and own either look like they have an upside down "V" shape where the TX/BX distance should be:



Or have almost no distance at all:



I guess getting a real jacket the way Ford's jacket fits him would simply be impractical in real life, unless you plan on always wearing it unzipped. But thoughts? Comments? And is it possible that Ford's jacket was purposely a size smaller to look cool?

We don't know, Castor. But since that's a CS and you speak with Tony, the man who made and fitted it, why not ask him? The only real opportunity we have to settle this one.

Also your hypothisis needs refining - what we see here is a jacket that is not too small (look at shoulders, sleeve and length - perfect) what we see in your hypothesis is a jacket tailored with less leather in the front panels, possibly so as to make it look like Ford has a broader chest...

Doesn't the fact that he's wearing a holster help push the jacket out like that?

CM wrote:We don't know, Castor. But since that's a CS and you speak with Tony, the man who made and fitted it, why not ask him? The only real opportunity we have to settle this one.

Also your hypothisis needs refining - what we see here is a jacket that is not too small (look at shoulders, sleeve and length - perfect) what we see in your hypothesis is a jacket tailored with less leather in the front panels, possibly so as to make it look like Ford has a broader chest...

CM, I agree that I could have worded it a bit better, but I don't think "Did Indy have a jacket with a smaller front than necessary" as a title would be as catchy

And I would ask Tony, but I doubt he would know the answer either, because working from memory of conversations we had, I think he mentioned that he did not directly measure Ford (as he made the CS jackets using measurements of an old jacket), and the only time he saw Ford was at the premiere.

djd wrote:Doesn't the fact that he's wearing a holster help push the jacket out like that?

Well, no, because the pictures I'm mainly referring to are after he gets his "utility belt" taken away from him. I'm thinking of Indy without his MKVII, or his gunbelt, so that neither the bag, nor the whip and holster combo will detract from the look.

I think it may have to do with Ford's rather unique posture myself. As well as how that posture changes drastically depending on what "mode" Indy is in.

This jacket had lots of room in the chest zipped up!!


This one zips up, but the pits squeeze in making it look off. Chest could a scooch roomier.

Castor Dioscuri wrote:

My jacket unzipped:


and zipped:


back while zipped:




Other than the side straps being pulled a little too tight, I'd say my fit is similar to the pic above when unzipped, and fits just fine when zipped.

JRabbit

Thanks guys, but to be fair...

Baldwyn, the jacket you're wearing is an Indy I, and a completely different beast. The way the Indy I wears is that it naturally falls "off the shoulders", and I'd agree that most (if not all) the Indy I's we've seen on CoW have that effect. However, the jacket I was hoping to address was actually a 'proper' fitting Indy jacket, like the CS jacket.

And JRabbit, no offense, but it really looks like the pose you have is 'forced' when the jacket is unzipped, and that you're purposely throwing your shoulders back, not your natural pose basically. Watching Ford in the movies, his pose isn't forced at all, and like I said earlier, he moves around alot, so the jacket gets shifted, yet always returns to the same position. If anything, I'd say his 'pose' would be having his shoulders slumped forward actually!

Great comparison pictures though, and it's great to have an open discussion like this!

Castor Dioscuri wrote:
And JRabbit, no offense, but it really looks like the pose you have is 'forced' when the jacket is unzipped, and that you're purposely throwing your shoulders back, not your natural pose basically. Watching Ford in the movies, his pose isn't forced at all, and like I said earlier, he moves around alot, so the jacket gets shifted, yet always returns to the same position. If anything, I'd say his 'pose' would be having his shoulders slumped forward actually!

HA! Well, other than Vogue dancing every now and then, I don't know that I "force pose". I thin I kinda just stand that way. But, I'll do some moving around a lot and see what the jacket does.

I suspected you were mostly focused on CS, but you out of 4 pictures of COWers, only 2 were wearing CS jackets

Ah, my bad!

One thing though that I just noticed is that your sidestraps seem to be cinched to an unhealthy degree? I hope someone would agree or disagree with me here, but from what I remember reading on these boards, cinching sidestraps too tight might be bad for your jacket in the long run, since they may end up tearing, or (as I found out the hard way) causing really nasty diagonal wrinkles from the 'pulling'. So something you might want to consider.

And while we're on that topic, Indy's in the movie also wasn't that tightly cinched either, judging from the movie and 'making-of' book stills.

Baldwyn, you caught me red-handed!

I was hoping though that I could get away with that as those pictures had the effect I was trying to illustrate- and were the first ones I found.

But you're right though.

Not CS, but we don't have examples of that zipped up:


LC seemed quite roomy. After all he's able to fit a cardigan under there.

Castor Dioscuri wrote:Ah, my bad!

One thing though that I just noticed is that your sidestraps seem to be cinched to an unhealthy degree? I hope someone would agree or disagree with me here, but from what I remember reading on these boards, cinching sidestraps too tight might be bad for your jacket in the long run, since they may end up tearing, or (as I found out the hard way) causing really nasty diagonal wrinkles from the 'pulling'. So something you might want to consider.

And while we're on that topic, Indy's in the movie also wasn't that tightly cinched either, judging from the movie and 'making-of' book stills.

Yep, I took those pics the night I got the jacket, and the straps were pulled all the way in from Wested. I've loosened them by about an inch on each side since that pic was taken.

I don't know Castor, I think you're just (as you said) Geeking out


Someone ask Ford what he thought of the fit.

All I know is how my CS jacket fits me. It fits very well, zips up, behaves as a jacket should and is comfortable. It's the only 'real' jacket of all the I-j movie jackets.

I never thought of Indy's jacket as being too small. All of my Indy jackets are SA and I've never thought of them not fitting properly. (Example on THIS page- see the middle pic of the TN jackets, that's me and it fits perfectly) The only times I ever noticed Indy's jacket being a bit snug is in the bar fight scene in Raiders and at the end of ToD.

Kyle

I think it is important to remember that Harrison Ford was personally fitted for the CS jacket. He didn't have his wife measure him and e-mail the results to Tony. Those jackets are based off of professionally taken measurements to fit HIM just so. Most of us, even ordering custom, do not have that advantage. Any tailor with experience doing in-person fittings will tell you; there is no substitute for first hand work.

My pint being that Ford's jackets are probably a "perfect fit" or at least perfect for the look the film makers wanted. What most of us regular folks call a perfect fit... isn't.

Chewbacca Jones wrote:.....

My pint being that Ford's jackets are probably a "perfect fit" or at least perfect for the look the film makers wanted. What most of us regular folks call a perfect fit... isn't.

good pint

RCSignals wrote:

Chewbacca Jones wrote:.....

My pint being that Ford's jackets are probably a "perfect fit" or at least perfect for the look the film makers wanted. What most of us regular folks call a perfect fit... isn't.

good pint

Wish I had a pint right about now! (and yes I know thats a grail diary its a beer to me!)


Travis

Hollowpond wrote:

RCSignals wrote:

Chewbacca Jones wrote:.....

My pint being that Ford's jackets are probably a "perfect fit" or at least perfect for the look the film makers wanted. What most of us regular folks call a perfect fit... isn't.

good pint

Wish I had a pint right about now! (and yes I know thats a grail diary its a beer to me!)


Travis

Speaking of which: Mc Fly, didn't you say you were making Holt a new smiley as well as giving us one that actually was holding a drink? (if you read this, just messing with ya )

When I first saw this thread I was amazed because both my LC Wested and my TN Raiders have parallel zips when unzipped (quite far apart even) but it turned out you were talking about the CS jacket Didn't catch that at first.

Regards, Geert

How bout a smiley for "Getting back on topic" (and yes, I realize saying that is hypocritical)

Kyle

We do have a smiley for getting back on topic. It's this one:

Now get back on topic!

I have to go with Chewbacca Jones here. The filmakers/costume designers had a certain look in mind and Ford was fitted for a jacket to achieve that look. The majority of us here don't have the advantage of being professionally fitted with a particular look in mind.

Speak for yourself! I'm an A-list celebrity in Hollywood. [Wakes up] Huh? Where was I?

Kyle

knibs7 wrote:Speak for yourself! I'm an A-list celebrity in Hollywood. [Wakes up] Huh? Where was I?

Kyle

On the floor of the bar, after too many pints.

Knibs, nobody is saying that the details of your jacket aren't SA, far from it, actually! And I'm not saying that your jacket does not fit properly either, quite the contrary! Your jacket fits a well as a leather jacket should, which is actually my point. Compare how your jacket fits on you to how it fits on Indy, and you will notice that the front actually covers more area than it does on Indy's!

And Chewbacca, what you mentioned about the jacket being professionally measured does go without saying . It is quite clear that Ford's jacket was specially measured to achieve that 'look', and so was the jacket as well, as it wasn't exactly an off-the-rack item until after Indy popularized his jacket. So my use of the phrase: "one size too small" may have been a misonomer, but what I'm trying to get at, though, is what makes that jacket tick! What nuances did the designer go for in creating the jacket, and how he/she went about doing it.

Basically, we all know that the jackets were made to best accentuate Ford's physique on screen, but how can we go about getting that same look (assuming we have a 'close-enough' match of a physique), as most of the jacket owners either have jackets that are too big, or are V-shaped. There of course is nothing wrong with having either, as the former, though too 'big' to be SA would nevertheless be perfect for real-world, everyday use, and the latter would be among the closest in efforts to merge the two.

I think that the Raiders and TOD jackets really had a slim fit, specially the TOD (it seems to me, although we don’t see it zipped in the movie). KT Templar wore once the NH jacket, which I think was a 40: maybe he could tell us about it.
My Nowak CS has a special fitting, too: very roomy in the sleeves and almost snug in the chest and body (Does any one who have a CS Nowak feel the same about it?) Maybe that’s what happened with Harrison Ford’s one… But, you know, everybody wants his jacket to be like Harrison Ford’s. My Nowak Raiders is even snugger in the chest, almost too much. Still, I can wear it with a cardigan inside if I only zip it half way up, like in the MOTB.
Anyway, a difficult (and very interesting) question to answer when we are talking about custom garments and, once again, using just pictures. But that’s the fun of it!

Yes Rask the ToD is more fitted. The CS is too. I wouldn't call mine 'snug' in the chest but it fits well in the chest like a jacket should. The upper sleeves are larger as you describe and gives the jacket a comfortable feel.

Many people seem to think the CS jacket is a baggy fit when it really isn't at all.

Exactly.

And, yeah, maybe I was exaggerating a little bit when I said it was snug... What I meant was that it tends to have a slim fit in the chest (while not at all in the sleeves).

Now, Raiders, that is really a snug fitting (at least in mine) which is cooler, by the way, cause when it is half way zipped it opens and curls beautifully the upper part of the jacket.

Hollowpond wrote:

RCSignals wrote:

Chewbacca Jones wrote:.....

My pint being that Ford's jackets are probably a "perfect fit" or at least perfect for the look the film makers wanted. What most of us regular folks call a perfect fit... isn't.

good pint

Wish I had a pint right about now! (and yes I know thats a grail diary its a beer to me!)


Travis

It comes in pints? I'm getting one.... cheers travis

What I wonder is what would have happened if there was a Raiders jacket in the achieve that actually fit Ford when they were deciding on the CS jacket.

When HF and Bernie decided on the Keppler/Flightsuits jacket to base the new jacket on, I’m sure that it happened for two reasons.

The first was that the Keppler/Flightsuits jacket was probably the jacket that actually fit Ford at that point. They had access to the same jacket that Tony based his TN 1 off of. Considering how weird a pattern the original Raiders jacket is and how form fitting it is, I’m sure that it didn’t fit Ford any longer. Even if it did fit him, that pattern feels weird for about a day, until you get used to it.

The other point is that I’m sure that the Keppler/FS jacket was much better made than the original Raiders jacket. By all accounts, those jackets were junk, especially when examined up close. That might affect your decision making process. You wouldn’t want to copy a jacket that seems like a piece of junk, even if the lines are flattering/correct.


PS-It took me a long to come to the realization that the Indy jacket needs to be as small as you can get away with for it to look cool. It's not a car coat where you can cheat the size and it still looks alright.

Rundquist wrote:What I wonder is what would have happened if there was a Raiders jacket in the achieve that actually fit Ford when they were deciding on the CS jacket.

When HF and Bernie decided on the Keppler/Flightsuits jacket to base the new jacket on, I’m sure that it happened for two reasons.

The first was that the Keppler/Flightsuits jacket was probably the jacket that actually fit Ford at that point. They had access to the same jacket that Tony based his TN 1 off of. Considering how weird a pattern the original Raiders jacket is and how form fitting it is, I’m sure that it didn’t fit Ford any longer. Even if it did fit him, that pattern feels weird for about a day, until you get used to it.

The other point is that I’m sure that the Keppler/FS jacket was much better made than the original Raiders jacket. By all accounts, those jackets were junk, especially when examined up close. That might affect your decision making process. You wouldn’t want to copy a jacket that seems like a piece of junk, even if the lines are flattering/correct.


PS-It took me a long to come to the realization that the Indy jacket needs to be as small as you can get away with for it to look cool. It's not a car coat where you can cheat the size and it still looks alright.

I don't see why the Raiders jacket would not fit Ford when deciding on the jacket for CS. They are in fact not too different in actual size. Different in pattern and 'behaviour' definitely.

I suspect, as for all the movies, they wanted something similar but not the same as any other.

The actual jacket used as a basis for the CS is only rumoured to be the Keppler/Flight Suits. No one has proven otherwise.

There is no doubt the original Raider jacket was in poor condition and poorly made, but I doubt that was a factor in deciding the jacket for CS. As I said, it would have more to do with wanting something 'new' for the movie, yet along the same basic look.

Castor Dioscuri wrote: And Chewbacca, what you mentioned about the jacket being professionally measured does go without saying . It is quite clear that Ford's jacket was specially measured to achieve that 'look', and so was the jacket as well, as it wasn't exactly an off-the-rack item until after Indy popularized his jacket. So my use of the phrase: "one size too small" may have been a misonomer, but what I'm trying to get at, though, is what makes that jacket tick! What nuances did the designer go for in creating the jacket, and how he/she went about doing it.

My answer remains the same - professional, purposeful, individual tailoring. That was my point to start with.

how can we go about getting that same look

The way we can get that look is to find somebody to work with us in person and tailor the jacket to achieve that specific look. I don't think there are any special "nuances" as you say, that we could use as a means of getting there by other methods. Calling up G&B and saying you want them to do X and Z, and tweak Y a certain way simply won't do it. This ain't like dustin' crops, boy. Without precise coordinates...

RCSignals wrote:

Rundquist wrote:What I wonder is what would have happened if there was a Raiders jacket in the achieve that actually fit Ford when they were deciding on the CS jacket.

When HF and Bernie decided on the Keppler/Flightsuits jacket to base the new jacket on, I’m sure that it happened for two reasons.

The first was that the Keppler/Flightsuits jacket was probably the jacket that actually fit Ford at that point. They had access to the same jacket that Tony based his TN 1 off of. Considering how weird a pattern the original Raiders jacket is and how form fitting it is, I’m sure that it didn’t fit Ford any longer. Even if it did fit him, that pattern feels weird for about a day, until you get used to it.

The other point is that I’m sure that the Keppler/FS jacket was much better made than the original Raiders jacket. By all accounts, those jackets were junk, especially when examined up close. That might affect your decision making process. You wouldn’t want to copy a jacket that seems like a piece of junk, even if the lines are flattering/correct.


PS-It took me a long to come to the realization that the Indy jacket needs to be as small as you can get away with for it to look cool. It's not a car coat where you can cheat the size and it still looks alright.

I don't see why the Raiders jacket would not fit Ford when deciding on the jacket for CS. They are in fact not too different in actual size. Different in pattern and 'behaviour' definitely.

I suspect, as for all the movies, they wanted something similar but not the same as any other.

The actual jacket used as a basis for the CS is only rumoured to be the Keppler/Flight Suits. No one has proven otherwise.

There is no doubt the original Raider jacket was in poor condition and poorly made, but I doubt that was a factor in deciding the jacket for CS. As I said, it would have more to do with wanting something 'new' for the movie, yet along the same basic look.

Well, perhaps they were not that different in size, but Ford’s change in body type since 1980 would make the jacket fit much different. It’s hard to properly judge an article of clothing if it’s too small (even slightly).

Regardless of whether the CS prototype was a Keppler/FS or a Cooper, it was better made than an original Raiders film jacket for sure. The thing that I’ve heard and read from people that have examined originals is this. They didn’t get the feeling like “wow” this is an original Raiders jacket. They got the feeling like “wow”, what a piece of junk.

That would be in the back of your mind during your decision making process, I would think.

I am surprised you guys do not look at the official Indiana Jones website, it does not say anthing about size, but it does say this.

"While Indy may only seem to wear one costume on screen, in reality, Pollack ultimately had to make 60 pairs of pants and 72 shirts. He also decided to make Indy's jacket slightly bigger, in order to accommodate the padding Ford would need when doing his stunts."

You can find it here.
http://www.indianajones.com/site/index.html

If that don't work go to the official site, and click The Film in the top tabs at the top, there is a tab on the far left about the film and one below it about the production. Click on about the production and go to whip, fedora, jacket area. At one point last year I thought they had the size, I think it was a 44, but not sure. In KOTCS is was definately a bit bigger than his normal size.

IndianaChris

That might be from the Official web site but is misquoting. In his inerview Pollak said they had a few jackets made bigger to accommodate stunt padding etc. Not all jackets.
To determine the 'main' Ford jacket size all you have to do is look on the Tony Nowak web site or ask him yourself.
There isn't much difference in the sizes of the Raiders jacket and the CS jacket. The CS jacket is not a big baggy jacket. The upper sleeves are larger, yes.
You can also find the sizes of both here, they've been posted a few times.