Club Obi Wan

The last time I visited Swain Adeney Brigg (Herbert Johnson) with Mark Seven, we uncovered a strange mystery surrounding the Poet. Apparently there are two different versions of this famous hat!

So I have made it my mission to find out what is going on, so yesterday I went there armed with a camera and a list of questions and here's what happened:

I asked the sales assistant why there are supposedly 2 Poets and he wasn't aware. So I asked if they had one in my size and he returned with another hat that was also labelled "Poet" but it had a lot of differences with the display model; the felt was thicker; different colour; dimensional cut; different ribbon; different lining; different sweatband; different block shape... the list is endless.

The sales assistant was very pleasant and was very helpful but I don't think he knew there were 2 models.

I politely told him it was clearly a different hat and showed him why, to which he agreed. After a few questions and him going back to the stock room for a minute, he informed me that they no longer make the hat like the display model. I asked if there were any others like the display hat and he said no. To clarify, I asked "is this the very last of it's kind then?" and he said it was. I made a joke about selling it on eBay as it would probably be very sought after, being the last one. He showed me a few of their beautiful Bull Whips and we chatted for a while as I took pictures of both hats and here are my pics comparing the details of both:

Display model unbashed

Display model ribbon

Display model inside

Display model sweatband

Stock model unbashed

Stock model inside

Stock model ribbon

Side by side, Display model on left.

The dimensional cut model, is what they sell to the Indy fans. They have the factory to do it. Whereas, Swales used the 3 inch brim Poet, and hand cut the brims for the fans, when he was at the shop. This is one of the changes the shop has seen, since Swales retired.

The sweatbands are different. The model hat, has the sweats like we used to see in the HJs a few years ago. The new hat, has the current sweatband.

If you look at the hat as pictured, the model hat does not have the peculiar excess taper on the right side of the hat, while the current model does have that taper. For the last few years, all of the HJs I have seen, have that extra peculiar taper on the right side of the hat. As if the felt shrunk up, on that side. My guess is that is the reason for this anomaly.

And of course, the bow on the model hat looks like someone took a bit more time when they made it. The current HJ, has that shoddy ribbon work that is common today.

Probably all of this is due to a change of sources for their Poet. Different factories made each hat. thanks for the post!! Fedora

That stock model has one ugly ribbon! Did they sew it at night with the lights off or what? And what does a stock poet sell for?

Wow....I have to say, the bow on my Christy's looks better than that.

Did you take any more shots that aren't posted. It would be nice to see it bashed from the front and unbashed side shots. The display

yes i have those shots as well. I'll post them asap.

I don't have much to add, the 'modern' bow is really horrible.

But I'd just like to say thank you for taking the time and effort to go there (twice!) and chatting to the people there.

Great effort, sir!

Neat pics! It's weird seeing a HJ with a price tag attached to it. When you order them by mail, they just arrive in a box, with no tags.

That stock model looks like @#$% - the display one actually looks really nice comparatively.

Kt Templar wrote:I don't have much to add, the 'modern' bow is really horrible.

But I'd just like to say thank you for taking the time and effort to go there (twice!) and chatting to the people there.

Great effort, sir!

Please add my thanks to KTs'!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Hmm... I would never say that either one of these is a great Indy hat, but the floor model at least looks like a nice hat. I may have to get a brown fedora with a matching brown ribbon.

Thanks for all your responses guys. So it appears that the last surviving 'oldbatch' poet is a size 53. If anyone lives near London who is a size 53, you might want to buy the display hat. I should have bought it and put itup for sale on Cairo Bizarre. Would anyone be interested? Maybe I'll do an auction

Thank you so much for your appreciation of my espionage work - i did feel a little bit like a stalker, having been in there so many times recently without actually buying anything. Steve, its great to get your input as always. Michaelson, your thanks is much appreciated. And to KT and everybody else who responded, its nice to hear from you all. I think my work here is done - HJ is (of course) a different product these days and there's nobody who works there that knows much about the original product.. What else can i find out from visiting the shop? Still, if anyone needs any questions answered that require a visit to SAB them please don't hesitate to pm me.

Snapbrim

... as requested, the photos not posted.

Thanks for posting these other shots. Is that all of them?

Yes John, i'm afraid thats all i got. After a while i did feel a bit inhibited with all the 'real gents' coming in intending to spend. I felt a bit like papparazzi around Paris Hilton...

... is that a euphemism for "taking photos of a young model who is only famous because of her predecessor"? Of course not, i would never imply such a thing

I love your stalking job! Great fieldwork my friend. You are just as bad as me LOL

So what's the year of that hat? Are we to suppose that "modern HJ" (which was already bad enough for its price) has recently changed into something even worse?

By the way, that display model looks pretty nice! My head isn't that small though

Thanks Erri. I have no idea what year the display model was and to be honest i don't think the sales assistand knew either. They're very nice in there but i think they are SAB workers with a HJ sideline. I'm not sure if they have much interest in Indy. I'm thinking of buying that display model just to be able to own a decent HJ, even though its 5 sizes too small for me. I don't know if it is 'the original' Poet, but i strongly suspect the 3-inch brim is a pretty good clue.

size 53.
that is tiny!

inexpensive_jones wrote:That stock model has one ugly ribbon! Did they sew it at night with the lights off or what?

YeeeeEEEEeeeesh!
I agree, IJ!
I mean, I'll admit to being a bit guilty of looking for perfection in a bow... but, even in my most mellow of moods, that thing on the STOCK Model just makes me want to CRINGE!

Michaelson wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:I don't have much to add, the 'modern' bow is really horrible.
But I'd just like to say thank you for taking the time and effort to go there (twice!) and chatting to the people there.
Great effort, sir!

Please add my thanks to KTs'!
HIGH regards! Michaelson

Same here, Snapbrim!
This kinda GumShoe work is fantastic - and extremely helpful (even when it DOES sometimes deepen a mystery or just leave a lot of us scratchin' our noggins!)
Thanks for playin' papparazzi for our benefit!

I think the mystery is solved... The display model seems to be an old HJ from the days when they were good hats and the stock model is what they supply, even to those who want to buy in the shop - hence the waiting list!!!

"oh sorry sir, we don't have any in stock (and we don't want you to realize that what we send you in a few months is a completely different hat)"

You know what, I feel I ought to spend the next few years learning the art of hat making, just so that I can offer my services to HJ. Not to be a competitor to AB, ABD and Penman, But to bring the standards back up to scratch and compensate the thousands of Indy fans who want a quality HJ for their hard-earned money. Maybe if there are enough COW members based in the UK we could take control of the Indy hat alone, for HJ, just so that you're not paying £190 for a Christys.

Thanks for the updates snapbrim and again, great fieldwork!

As for supplying to HJ I doubt they would be interested. As all money-making companies they must have someone with a degree in economy telling the company (or the shop, whatever) to buy the cheapest material and sell the final product for the highest possible price. These people don't care of making good hats, they only care of profict.
Unless you proposed them a hat that costs £10 to make (or less), I don't think they would even consider it.

In a way, the market of Indy hats is already in the hands of the fans. The 'best seller' is the AB brand and those hats are made by fans (Marc, Steve and BendingOak).

Snapbrim76 wrote:I think the mystery is solved... The display model seems to be an old HJ from the days when they were good hats and the stock model is what they supply, even to those who want to buy in the shop - hence the waiting list!!!

"oh sorry sir, we don't have any in stock (and we don't want you to realize that what we send you in a few months is a completely different hat)"

You know what, I feel I ought to spend the next few years learning the art of hat making, just so that I can offer my services to HJ. Not to be a competitor to AB, ABD and Penman, But to bring the standards back up to scratch and compensate the thousands of Indy fans who want a quality HJ for their hard-earned money. Maybe if there are enough COW members based in the UK we could take control of the Indy hat alone, for HJ, just so that you're not paying £190 for a Christys.

have you not seen the MAG/HJ/AB

Specifically:

http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/herbert ... p-117.html

These are done for Indy Magnoli BY AB/Steve Delk, as John pointed out.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, I thought I'd mentioned the Magnoli, must have been another thread. A friend of mine has one. I only wish that SAB only stocked that one.

Hear hear!

Regards! Michaelson

They are custom, so they wouldn't be able to stock them. Plus, why give your money to HJ?

Dave

True too.

Regards! Michaelson

DR Ulloa wrote:They are custom, so they wouldn't be able to stock them. Plus, why give your money to HJ?

Dave

personally, I wouldn't but for those who want the true Raiders brand name - everyone deserves value for their money, even if they're not a member of COW and have therefore not heard of Steve, Marc or John.

Very true. But, research does pay off. A simple google search of "Indiana Jones hat" will turn up Adventurebilt.

Dave

Snapbrim76 wrote:

DR Ulloa wrote:They are custom, so they wouldn't be able to stock them. Plus, why give your money to HJ?

Dave

personally, I wouldn't but for those who want the true Raiders brand name - everyone deserves value for their money, even if they're not a member of COW and have therefore not heard of Steve, Marc or John.

Thats just shows you that they don't care and they are riding off of their name not quality.

I don't know if you can read this but this is a pic of the literature next to the display model. If someone buys the display model will they have to change this text?

Snapbrim76 wrote:

I don't know if you can read this but this is a pic of the literature next to the display model. If someone buys the display model will they have to change this text?

I can't

Me neither.

You guys can't read it? It clearly says, "X Image"

At least, I could read it.

By the way - who do I talk to about getting a new keyboard? I threw up all over it after seeing the bow on that stock HJ, and I think they should pay for it.

Shane

Ok for some reason, I cannot get this image to work. HJ's spies are protecting their interest

McFly wrote:You guys can't read it? It clearly says, "X Image"

At least, I could read it.

By the way - who do I talk to about getting a new keyboard? I threw up all over it after seeing the bow on that stock HJ, and I think they should pay for it.

Shane

Dave

For me personally, it just breaks the heart that a fine old company like HJ is gone. Only the skeleton remains. HJ at one time had hats in retail stores worldwide. I used to have one sold at Brooks Brothers, but with the HJ name and logo inside the hat, along with Brooks Bros. They were like Stetson at one time, selling the brand all over the world. And the HJs from those days were really good hats. Worthy of the famous English hatmaking tradition. And they did have a great tradition.

I think Mr. Swales was the last holdover at HJ from their Glory Days, and he probably saw huge changes in the hats in his span there at HJ. At one time he probably customized alot of hats at HJ, in his early days there. So, very fitting that the last hat he customized became the most iconic hat of the series. I don't think he ever wanted much credit for that though, going by anecdotal accounts over the years. I guess that wasn't a big deal to him, which may be typically English, not sure. English "reserve" is well known, at least here in the US. I have a feeling he saw the Indy fans as a bit strange.

Mr Swales too, could be the reason for the change in hats from the first film to the second. I would assume the costume designer who took Deb's place, just told him he wanted some hats like they got from him for the first film. And, instead of sending bespoke hats, he just sent them factory models of the Poet. Perhaps it was close enough for him, although the bow work right off would tell an astute eye, something was "off" when compared to the Raiders fedora. I don't think he must have cared much. To him, they were probably just another customer, and NOT is usual clientele.

We could do the same thing, Marc and I. If there is another Indy film, and Bernie is not there for whatever reason, and they contacted us to send them what we sent for the last film, it would be very tempting to just send them the Henry. After I finally saw one in hand, it is almost identical to our handmade hats we sent to Bernie. So, we could do it, and I doubt the new costume designer would know any difference. Plus Marc went to great lengths to have the CS hat copied as exact as he could get, unlike what Swales did with the second Indy hat. He sent a totally different hat, except, it was brown. Like the first. Fedora