The Great Wested Action Pleat Experiment

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:39 pm

I hate the pleats on my Wested HH. They bulk out the back too much and kind of stick out at a funny angle. The material being relatively stiff doesn't help. I specified 1.5" pleats when I bought it, but realised afterwards that I should have made them 1.25". After getting a Nowak, I have downsized that preference to 1".

So anyway, I thought I'd do the trick KT mentioned ages ago and fix them myself. If you turn a Wested inside out you'll see the seam in one of the sleeves is sewn up from the outside for about 6". I unpicked that, shoved my arm through and turned the whole jacket inside-out. It was actually quite easy. It just looks like a big suede lump.

I found the pleats, and thought that I shouldn't take any chances with assumptions on how deep they are by just sewing a half an inch in from the Wested stitching. I measured them, and shock horror, found that they were TWO INCHES. I just shook my head. THAT couldn't be helping! I'm now wondering how much of an effect it's having on creating the chunky, boxy look that I dislike about this jacket.

Anyway, this weekend I'm going sew them up, take some pictures (didn't think to get "befores") and give you some pointers on how to do it. Hopefully it will turn out ok.

Bruce Wayne · Post by **Bruce Wayne** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:20 am

eagerly awaiting the results of this little science experiment!!!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:22 am

Well you may need to wait a little longer!

So for the record - Horsehide...? Not so much the easiest to sew on a home machine.

How hard could it be, right?

Anyway, being I just seized up the machine to the point of almost breaking it, I'll be taking the jacket to a leather repair place to get them to do it.

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:38 am

I don't know that shallower pleats are the solution. My very first Wested was a lamb, the old trash bag look/feel lamb from the mid 90's. It had shallow pleats and they bagged out like crazy. I tried the get them to hold their shape by gluing fiber reinforcement cloth tape to the inside of the pleats. This was a total failure. They ended up still buldging out and being stiff looking. I think the inherent problem is the pleats are decorative and not functional by design. Even on my current Wested goat, the pleats are bagged out and not functional.

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:31 pm

they are just like that on the film jacket aswell. so no surprize there.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:24 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:they are just like that on the film jacket aswell. so no surprize there.

Depends on the scene and what the action is though.
The opening of the pleats isn't a constant on the film jacket, but shallower pleats of the jacket help.

Yojimbo, you may have to add pleat closers as well as narrowing the pleats, even though the film jacket didn't have closers. (broad heavy elastic)

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:19 pm

That's something that interests me. What is exactly a pleat closer and how does it work?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:29 pm

It's a wide piece(s) of fairly heavy elastic that is sewn inside the jacket between the pleats to help keep them closed.

The Raiders jackets didn't have them.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:41 pm

I see... Thanks RC. Does anyone know if there are examples with pics here in the forum? I've already used the search option but I can't find very much

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:52 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:they are just like that on the film jacket aswell. so no surprize there.

On the film version they're open, but they're not this deep or rigid, so they don't make Indy look like he has the tail fins of a 1957 Plymouth Fury.

Yes, RC, the thought had occurred to me. I like the idea of them, but would be concerned that I could feel them there all the time. Do the Nowak CS jackets have the elastic?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:10 pm

Yes the CS jackets have it, but you'd never know it was there. I suppose it depends how it's sewn in.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:14 pm

...and that's my problem!

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:23 pm

I'll take a look at my CS tomorrow. If I notice something I'll tell you guys... Now I see why the Nowak CS pleats work so much better that his Raiders

Anyway that's another thing that gives character to the Raiders jacket (speaking about it's 'faults')

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:27 pm

But now that I think about it, I should have to unstitch the lining to see anything...

Hey Yohimbo, maybe if you ask Tony he can show you how to sew it...

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:30 pm

You may be able to feel them through the lining to get a sense of where they are positioned?

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:33 pm

Humm... I'll try and do my best.
I'll tell you tomorrow then

(I don't have the jacket right now with me)

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:46 pm

Thats ok mate. No rush. I'm just wanting to fix the pleat depth for now anyway and see how it looks.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:51 pm

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:53 pm

Yojimbo Jones wrote:
Indiana Holt wrote:they are just like that on the film jacket aswell. so no surprize there.
On the film version they're open, but they're not this deep or rigid, so they don't make Indy look like he has the tail fins of a 1957 Plymouth Fury.

In this scene we can actually see how 'deep' those pleats really are on the original.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:58 pm

Yep. Mine are heaps deeper than that, and the thicker HH doesn't allow them to lie like that either.

The pleats kind of come out of the yoke seam at a funny 45 degree angle, sticking out an inch or 1.5" before going south.

Does yours do that Holt?

So I figure if I err on the side of shallower at close to 1", it will help to counteract this as well remove some of the jacket's boxy / billowy-ness.

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:10 pm

yes. if I remember correctly, mine did also come out. but when I loosend the straps the layed nice and flat.

the Horsehide LC dont come out at all. thats becasue of the cut and the lower placed yoke.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:13 pm

Ok, makes sense. The weird thing is that my yoke is low and they do it to some degree whether the straps are tightened or not. That's what led me to think pleat depth may be a factor - if you pleats are a true 1.5" or 1.25" maybe that's why you don't have the problem.

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:29 pm

your yoke is high. its raiders. even though its 'low' its high....and becaseu it is so wide across and not fitted it makes the shoulders it makes the shoulder droop down making the yoke come at the sides around the back/lats. and tight/closed around the waist..right?

the yoke on the LC is 7.5''. so thats low..

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:50 pm

just found this one on my laptop

batwing effect.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:58 pm

Yep. And that's how it should look, but mine follow this line:

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:02 pm

yep. then its becasue of the half shoulders being to wide and drooping down making the top pleat buldge out like that. the problem layes in the shoulders

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:14 pm

Ah right, I think I get you. In other words if the shoulders were more fitted like a suit where the shoulder seam hit me right at the apex rather than draping off, it wouldn't result in so much excess leather pushing the back panel outward, yeah?

There's something funny going on though as my Nowak has the same width shoulders and doesn't do it, but there are so many panels of leather where it could be contributing - the arms are wider, as are the back pleats, and the side panels too. It'll be a little while before I will have the opportunity to get another cold-weather jacket that will fit me properly, so I'd just like to fix this one up as best I can. If closing the pleats by 2 folds of 20mm on each side each will help to reduce the weirdness going on I'll be happier.

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:39 pm

yep correct. AND now that you mentioned the nowak it came to me that it does not only lie in the shoulder but the chest aswell.

if the chest is really wide the armholes will have an outward curve instead of a straigther cut. meaning the backpanel will take an effect on that and extend furter then it really should.

see here. I just did this real quick. so bear with me. Look how the backpanel extends further if the armholes (red line) have a wide outward curve, meaning, if they do, the chest is oversized. Wested makes the jackets oversized. We all know that. And it should NOT be like this. The second diagram shows how the armholes/chest should be, a slimmer cut. making the backpanel extend to where it should.

1.

2.

see how the shoulder AND the chest/armhole effects the width of the top backpanel?

I would imagine that the nowak is like picture 2.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:13 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:your yoke is high. its raiders. even though its 'low' its high....and becaseu it is so wide across and not fitted it makes the shoulders it makes the shoulder droop down making the yoke come at the sides around the back/lats. and tight/closed around the waist..right?

the yoke on the LC is 7.5''. so thats low..

7.5" measured from the shoulder seam or the center of the back? The ToD is 8" from the collar stand to the bottom of the yoke at the center of the back. Low!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:43 pm

Yeah Holt - proportionately that's right. The chest seems fine though - as does the back and yoke on my frame - it's just all that other stuff that feels oversized. Aside from the pokey-out pleats - it LOOKS fine - just not the cut I generally feel at home in.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:27 am

I find the back of the jacket needs to be tighter to get the pleats to work well. If the yoke seam droops because the back is too wide, the pleats definitely open. Funny, the pleats in my CS jacket frustrated me for awhile, but I got used to it. Of all the jackets I've owned, I've found that the deep pleats in my Raiders Wested Horsehide work the best. I love them! I find the stiff leather helps!! And best of all, I love the deep pleat. I find a tight back, deep pleat to offer the most useful functionality. A shallow pleat is only cosmetic. When I get my TN Raiders made, it'll have a deeper pleat than he offers, and I'll ask for elastic.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:24 am

Odd. I would think a tighter cut back and pleats without elastic closers would mean the pleats would open more....stretch the pleats.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:43 am

RCSignals wrote:Odd. I would think a tighter cut back and pleats without elastic closers would mean the pleats would open more....stretch the pleats.

Depends on body type

I think I have narrow shoulders, but a bit thicker, so when I get jackets in my size, the shoulders are too wide. On an Indy jacket, it causes the yoke to sag, outwards, so the pleats open up. The 000 jacket though had very well behaved pleats for me.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:17 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote: Do the Nowak CS jackets have the elastic?

I've checked it and yep. There is definitely a pleat closer. It is an elastic band that, as RC said, goes from one pleat to the other keeping them closed. In my CS jacket it is sewn, more or less, 2.5 inches below the yoke seam.

Regards,
Rask

Heyjude7 · Post by **Heyjude7** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:54 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote:
Indiana Holt wrote:they are just like that on the film jacket aswell. so no surprize there.
On the film version they're open, but they're not this deep or rigid, so they don't make Indy look like he has the tail fins of a 1957 Plymouth Fury.

Yes, RC, the thought had occurred to me. I like the idea of them, but would be concerned that I could feel them there all the time. Do the Nowak CS jackets have the elastic?

Good Ol' Christine... how'd she get back from that garbage heap!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:34 am

I was wondering ho wlong it would take someone to pick the reference!

Heyjude7 · Post by **Heyjude7** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:42 am

I love her! that movie is great!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:27 pm

Wow! Just got the jacket back from the leather repairs shop. I got him to run a new line of stitching 20mm in from the original, and it's brought the pleat depth back to a little over an inch.

The overall bagginess of the jacket is still there, but there isn't the pleat craziness that there was. The pleat looks MUCH better. It's as good a fit as you're gonna get out of the boxy Wested pattern, with all its arm and side panel weirdness. (Holt's magic personal requests notwithstanding!

)

But this will do me for now as a bigger cold weather jacket that I can layer under, until I get a Nowak ToD in Cowhide later down the track.

Columbiana Jones · Post by **Columbiana Jones** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:22 am

After owning four Westeds that did this "wing" thing, I finally gave up and sold them off. The only jacket I've tried that doesn't do this at all on me is the G&B Expedition. My theory has been that the back panel on the Wested panel is just too wide overall, so the "wings" emerge as the panel and pleat are turning in to meet the sides/underarm area. I actally measured my last Wested alongside my same-size G&B--and the G&B had a narrower back panel by nearly 1.5 inches. Very happy now with the G&B.

Greg

ryans · Post by **ryans** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:32 pm

Hi there. I have G&B Expedition and it doesn't exhibit the bat wing problem mentioned in this thread. It's due to the fact that G&B's has bi-swing back that actually functions. What I mean by that is that there are two elastic straps holding each action pleats together across the back. You can feel the straps if you try to purposely feel them but otherwise they're so subtle you won't notice the straps are even there. I didn't... until I happen to come across Dave's promotinoal video for G&B M422 Jacket where he explains this feature towards the end. Here's the video I'm referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgtk7H8y5E4

I wonder if other Indy jacket vendors support this feature for their action pleats cuz it's one of those tiny details that I like about G&B's.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:20 pm

They are in the back of Wings jackets (just checked the back of my blue label I'm wearing today and it's there), I believe Wested will add them if asked, and though I don't have one immediately at hand, I'm sure the TN's have it as well.

So the answer is 'yes', other vendors do it too.

Regards! Michaelson

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:49 pm

My wings indy jackets have elastic closers.
The only TN jacket to have them standard is the CS.

I would think elastic closers could be added to the Custom of any of the vendors

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:56 pm

Thanks, RC. Then my TN would have the strap too, as it's a CS.

Regards! Michaelson