Let's all talk about "the turn" some more, shall we?

[mikemietlicki]

Hello.

Now, I know 'The Turn" wasn't common in hats pre(or post)WWII. But was it entirely unheard of? Does anybody have pictures from the period that has the hat purposely turned? I'm wondering how accurate to the period it is, instead of accurate to the movie.


Thanks,
Mikey

[RCSignals]

My opinion is that outside of the movie, it was generally and 'accident, caused when people put their hat on and off using the pinch of the crown instead of the brim.
If you look up old photos of people wearing fedoras as work wear, (not uncommon) not just Gentlemen in suits, you see this effect more often. The pinch gets tighter, similar to the movie, and offset, similar to the movie.
If the turn in Raiders was intentional, this may be what they were attempting to duplicate.
Again, JMO.

[DR Ulloa]

I've seen the turn in hats of the period as well. Emulating film stars and their hats is not something that we started. Some men back then were doing the same thing and trying to achieve certain looks with their hats. Some guys just like to be different. Its no different, really, than guys who wear ball caps backwards or on the side. Its just a different and distinct way of wearing a hat.

Dave

[Michaelson]

Also consider that almost ALL hats came open crown, so just about everytime you grabbed your hat, your front dents were repositioned with handling. So intentional or not, it was probably more of a regular occurance than one would imagine.

Regards! Michaelson

[RCSignals]

That's what I was trying to get at. Thanks Michaelson for a simpler description.

[Indy35]

Also consider that almost ALL hats came open crown, so just about everytime you grabbed your hat, your front dents were repositioned with handling. So intentional or not, it was probably more of a regular occurance than one would imagine.

Regards! Michaelson

This is what happens to me, plus i have a nerous tic and tweak the hat a little when i put it on. so its always just a little crooked.

Something people did back then was tip the hat to one side or another, this was how people with narrow faces were supposed to wear a hat, but it seemed to be a preference from wearer to wearer. I can't tip a lid to the side; it looks weird to me.

[3thoubucks]

I was going to say Wild Bill Hickock turned his hat on purpose back in 1870, having recently watched Jeff Bridges in "Wild Bill" . But, when I looked at pics of the Real Wild Bill with Google images just now, I couldn't find one with a warped brim! I don't know if this warpage is due to a turn or was steamed to look like this, but the movie implied that Bill was very carefull to have his hat look just so. The thing that reaaly set Wild Bill off in the film, was when anyone messed with his hat. Jeff often wore his fedora with a lot of turn in "Seabiscuit" Not creased off center, just not on straight..

[Scott63]

I think it also may be more likely with hats on those of us with long-oval head shapes. All of my regular-oval hats end up conforming, sooner or later, to the shape of my head. I've noticed that several of them (fedoras and cowboy hats alike) end up somewhat off center.

Scott

[mikemietlicki]

Here we go.

This picture is by Esther Bubley. It was taken in 1947. The man on the right definately has his bow over his sideburn, but I can't tell if the ribbon is crooked or if it actually is turned. Does anybody know of any other historical instances of the "turn?"




mikey

[mikemietlicki]

Also, I'm watching Goldfinger right now a couple of the characters do have turned hats. Or it could just be a misguided attempt and wearing them leaning a direction, it isn't clear.

[Fedora]

One thing I have noticed with really soft hats, the self conforming kind, is, it is hard to get it straight on the head, because the softness does not allow the hole for the head to be defined like a stiff hat. On a stiff hat, it will automatically seat itself in the straight on position. I am wearing my rabbit vintage(1940's) Stetson Whippet today, and I have to look in the mirror when I put it on, so I can see it is lined up. If you put a soft hat on, open crown, and then put the creases in, while it is on your head, more times than not, you will put in on in a spun position. Crease it like that, and you have the Raiders turn.

Back in the day, some men wanted to have their own look, as this was important with many men, and this also included the hat. I have seen so many of these examples when watching TCM. Tilting the hat to one side was one of these, as well as the way they styled the brims. And generally once their particular style was achieved, they did not flip flop, and wore the hat this way, forever. My grand dad was like that. Regardless of what hat he bought, he always went back to his particular and fav style. Fedora

[mikemietlicki]

Well thanks for your help and opinions. I was on my own intellectual quest just to see how common it really was. Because this is such a part of the Raiders hat, I decided to share. I'm sure I'll have more info the next time I visit my hat shop!


Mike

[Michaelson]

One thing I have noticed with really soft hats, the self conforming kind, is, it is hard to get it straight on the head, because the softness does not allow the hole for the head to be defined like a stiff hat. On a stiff hat, it will automatically seat itself in the straight on position. I am wearing my rabbit vintage(1940's) Stetson Whippet today, and I have to look in the mirror when I put it on, so I can see it is lined up. If you put a soft hat on, open crown, and then put the creases in, while it is on your head, more times than not, you will put in on in a spun position. Crease it like that, and you have the Raiders turn.

That's what my old Borsalino does.
Regards! Michaelson

[LANDINGPARTY]

Was it ever determined if the opening scene of Raiders when we first see Harrison Ford in the fedora was a turned hat?

[Weston]

Heck, in old movies and photos I've seen fedoras turned every which way. To me, it's almost less common to see an unturned fedora. I don't think folks gave it much thought when it was a common piece of mens apparel. It went on your noggin and did it's job. Like the above comments, a soft hat is hard to center unless you're looking in a mirror while you're doing it. What I see different in the Raider's hat is that the pinch is centered while the brim is turned. That is what is unique about it. The turn introduced before the crease.

Weston

[Snapbrim76]

Can I just check I understand what it is we're all talking about? I was under the impression that the turn is not a tilt but turning the hat so that the bow is nearer the front - by doing this the brim does a funky curl upwards and hey presto, your hat takes on that Indy look (providing the brim isn't too stiff). It seems to work wonders on my Fed. If I wear it straight then the brim looks more like a LC bash but with the turn it takes on a SoC brim shape - it looks fantastic. I'm not sure if some people are talking about a tilt where the hat just leans left or right. Are we all singing from the same hymn sheet here? Am I way off?

If I'm not mistaken then I'd like to add that the turn only seems to be used with a tilt to present a different brim profile going right back in history. It seems that in the days when everyone wore hats, it was common practice to have your own style, bash, colour, tilt, turn, taper etc because people didn't have much else to assert their individuality. I have always been a lover of old photography of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Every hat was unique to the wearer. The turn does seem a bit more subtle than Indy's though. But I'm sure if we actually had photo evidence of everyone of that period, we'd have a much better understanding of how unique each hat was.

[binkmeisterRick]

Yep, you've got the turn right, Snapbrim. It's turning the hat along the "equator" of your head, moving the bow closer to the front, as opposed to tilting the hat.