Who makes the hat with the stiffest most durable felt?

[NJIndy]

I am waiting on an AB and bought a FedIV to get me through.

I wear a hat every day, rain/sun/snow, for decades....

I don't abuse them except that I wear them constantly and in all conditions... and on recommendations from others bought the FedIV and it is a great, tough hat but it has softened up a bit for my taste.

I want a hat as stiff as a cowboy hat AND the felt has to be tough enough for all weather and all conditions. The FedIV has passed the tough part but not so good on staying stiff. Does Todd's Coyle Downtowner or the Peter's Bros pass both of these tests? If it is stiffer than the FedIV, is it as tough?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Pete

[DR Ulloa]

Your best bet would be to go to John or Steve and ask them to make you a pure beaver hat with as much stiffener as possible. Rabbit jsut doesn't hold up the way beaver does.

Dave

[Michaelson]

Of the two you mention, Peters Brothers custom, hands down. It ain't called 'bullet proof felt' for nothing! It's a rabbit/beaver blend.

Regards! Michaelson

[DR Ulloa]

Don't know how I overlooked that one.

Between the Downtowner and a PB, definately go with the PB. The Downtowner just doesn't compare.

Dave

[BendingOak]

The toughest felt would be beaver of course and like David said stiffener can be added with no problem. From the 2 you gave to pick from PB hands down.

[maboot38]

The Dorfman Pacific "Official" Indy Fedora is stiffer than ANY of the others!

[Ranger36]

Oh, yeah!

Believe me.

[Michaelson]

Well, yeah, but it's mostly sheet rock.

Was this mike on?



Regards! Michaelson

[Ranger36]

[BendingOak]

Can I ask why stiff?

[maboot38]

We are building closer and closer to a "that's what she said" joke here!!!!

I think what he means is that he wants one that will hold its shape in a strong wind, and not look like Indy's hat in the spike room at Pankot Palace.

[Nicolas Jones]

Hello,

You can use shelac (stiffener) on your hat (spray it on it).
This way you can have it as stiff as you want.

Regards,

Nico

[enigmata_wood]

The Dorfman Pacific "Official" Indy Fedora is stiffer than ANY of the others!

but looses that quickest in a heavy down pour

[maboot38]

The Dorfman Pacific "Official" Indy Fedora is stiffer than ANY of the others!

but looses that quickest in a heavy down pour

That's what's so great about it!!! After a downpour, it turns into a Little House on the Prarie style bonnet!!!!

[Dutch_jones]

We are building closer and closer to a "that's what she said" joke here!!!!

I think what he means is that he wants one that will hold its shape in a strong wind, and not look like Indy's hat in the spike room at Pankot Palace.

[NJIndy]

Thanks for all the insight...

To answer some of the questions brought up....

I have an AB on order and want it to be just as Steve made them for Indy4, so I won't change anything on that.

As far as saying the PB fits the bill the best of the two I mentioned... please don't limit yourself, if there is a another hat I didn't mention but is even better, let me know...

Why stiff? The only hat I have that I would wear in an hour or more hard downpour with a brim to keep the rain off my glasses and allowing me use of both hands (no umbrella) is an old cowboy hat I have. I bought it while on vacation in Branson and never planned to wear it much back in Jersey. But I never have to worry about the way it dries or tapering. I don't have to worry about handling it by the brim. I have soaked it though more times than I can remember and the curve of the brim is just like new. It has dried on it's crown, on a flat shelf, in the trunk of a car, etc... At this rate, it will need a reblock in about 50 years. I just want those qualities in a fedora.

So, keep the suggestions coming... one thing... cost is a consideration so I would like to keep it close to the cost of my FedIV.

Thanks,
Pete

[BendingOak]

Beaver would be your best bet but it doesn't need to be stiff to hold up.

[maboot38]

Beaver would be your best bet but it doesn't need to be stiff to hold up.

OK, it is too late at night for me to be reading this forum I guess!!

[NJIndy]

Beaver would be your best bet but it doesn't need to be stiff to hold up.

I understand the Beaver felt being tough but if it covered in snow and rain and soaked through and gets tossed in the corner or in the car trunk and a few days later, will it hold it's original shape eventhough it was wedged next to the spare tire when it dried? And grabbing it and handling it by the brim or even the pinch is never an issue.

I love my vintage hats, my FedIV, and I know I will love the AB (when I get it), but I find in the tough spots, I go to this old cowboy hat cause the brim holds up in the wind and rain, and it is very very low maintenance. And in the last couple weeks in NJ, all the heavy rain has made me realize how much I still fall back on this tough as nails western Felt helmet.... now if it looked more like a fedora...

I am not saying stiff felt is better... just that I would like to add one fedora to the stable that is as tough and low maintenance as this old cowboy hat... without breaking the bank.

Pete

[Michaelson]

As to material, beaver is the most forgiving felt made. Period. Everything you asked above it will handle, and then some, stiff OR soft.

What you're substituting for that versitility is stiffiness due to application of a lot of stiffner to the felt.

Either way you decide to go will work.

Regards! Michaelson

[DR Ulloa]

In Miami, the weather is very unpredictable. It can be a beautiful, beach worthy day one minute, black as night and pouring rain the next, and back to sunny again within half an hour. I've been caught in my fair share of rain storms. Lucky for me, I had my Penman all last summer, which is when the weather is most unpredictable. That baby held its shape like champ. My ABs have been through a couple storms as well and they hold up just as well. The only way these hats will change shape is if YOU change it. You don't need stiff felt for that, just good felt.

The best thing about beaver felt is that it is soft enough to let it take on its own personality and character just by handling it and will become your own. You don't have to worry, though, about the hat getting all bent out of shape becuase its wet.

Dave

[DR Ulloa]

Again, proves he types faster than I do.

Dave

[Michaelson]

[Fedora]

Here's the downside of a really stiff felt. You need to be custom fitted with a conformateur and use the formillion to get a good fit. A stiff hat that does not exactly fit the head shape(with bumps and all) is generally very uncomfortably. Unless, you lucked out, and your head is exactly a regular oval to begin with, with no bumps.

Shellac also adds water repellant qualities to the hat. But rest assured, once you wear that stiff hat to the point the core of the felt gets wet, it will taper, and taper very fast. You will be shocked at how it tapers. You can't change the law of physics, trust me on this. I have seen loads of stiff hats that tapered. And generally when they do taper, they taper alot at one time. But, the core has to be wet. The only felt that does not taper like this, is really old vintage hats. Soft or stiff. And, I figure it has to do with the fur dying, which no longer reacts to the wet stuff, or heat.

The only new hats that don't taper as readily are the hats bought with taper already in the blockshape. The cone matches the final hat better, and straight sided hats when the core gets wet, all revert to the original tapered cone. No way to get around it, except for age.

Now, you probably won't believe this, and that is ok. I was where you are at one time. My PBs were as stiff as a felt can be. But, all tapered, and boy when they finally did, I had a witches hat. This is just what new felt does. And you can't get around it. It is inevitable.

The most taper proof, modern hat would be pure beaver, with alot of shellac, plus a water repellent added. The wet has to penetrate both the treatment and the shellac to reach the core of the felt. But, don't expect to find one economically priced, unless you shop ebay for western hats, preferably old western hats.

All felt hats start out as cones. The more you turn the cone into a blockshape, the more you have to stretch out the top or tip of the body. When felt is stretched, it wants to revert, but the procedures used in making the hat, stops this from happening. By the use of heat and steam. Fur is alive in new hats. It moves, it shrinks, etc. Generally, when you set the new shape, from the cone shape, you also "set" in the new shape. And it is good, until the core gets wet. This will negate, in various amounts the shape you put into the cone. But, all it takes is the very inner part of the felt, or core to get wet. Once you do that, the bets are off. We need to all remember this, so buy a hat that can be reblocked. That means buy a hat that is top drawer felt to begin with. Because, if you wear hats, you will pay now, or you will pay later. Many rabbit hats are good for only 1 reblock, if that many. Many have to be thrown away once they do taper, IF you are wanting to wear Raider looking hats. Personally, I hate disposable hats with a vengence. And face it, many modern fedoras, are disposable hats. Once they shrink in crown height, you cannot get it back. So, you wear a short hat, or you buy a new one. I want to keep old friend around, so I opt for the best felt to begin with. I know that in the long run, this is the cheapest way to go. But, with our disposable culture, it is no surprise many folks would just as soon buy a new hat when the old one shrinks. But over time, it really is more expensive in the end.

Knowing what I know now, and if I were a newbie with hats, I would buy the best felt available, if I could afford it. Then when the hat tapered, I would just get it reblocked and refurbed. And I would buy a softer rather than a stiffer hat. They are just much more comfortable to wear, generally speaking. And when the wind rips, the brim will flex, to keep the hat on the head, instead of being blown off when the wind gets under a stiff brim. But then, I never personally liked a stiff hat. Because of the above reasons. The self conforming softer hats suit me better. I like comfort, and have bumps on my head. I have never worn a real stiff hat that did not give me a headache. So, I would have to be custom fitted with a hatter who used the formillion to copy my head shape onto the stiff hat. In that case, even a stiff hat would feel good. And for most folks, this custom fittng is essential if they wear stiff hats. Fedora

[NJIndy]

Thanks for the insight!

That is why I don't want to mess with my pending AB order, Steve you understand the hat better than anyone else.

The only 100% beaver hat I presently own is a vintage piece and it is a dress fedora so it hasn't been tested in bad weather, and other than that my hats are mystery fur blends and they don't hold up very well to inclement weather.

I think once I get the AB, I will understand better that it's the felt, not the stiffness, that makes the hat durable.

Also, thanks Dave and Michealson for helping lead me to the same conclusion.

The interesting thing is the statement about even western hats tapering, except older ones... You hit it on the head, this old cowboy hat was bought used (cheap) with a blank sweat and no liner but excellent shape, which hasn't changed in years. I don't even know if it is beaver or not and don't really care but it sounds like all this time, I based the durability on the stiffness but it is most likely just a good felt.

Thanks,
Pete

[DR Ulloa]

Yup, its the felt. And your welcome.

Dave

[Michaelson]

Our pleasure, my friend!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

[Nicolas Jones]

Hi,

this is realy simple : use some shellac in order to stiffen your felt.
I did it, it works very well. (you need a sprayer and some 95% alcool to disolve the shellac).

Regards,

Nico