Club Obi Wan

People have relied on jacket makers as experts and they do have a lot of hands on expertise. With my following conversations I found that both our jacket makers are mostly correct, they just use different terms to each other.

I wanted to approach the information from another angle, find an independent expert. I found 3.

I decided to ask someone at the opposite end of the business, someone in teaching. I tracked down a University that specialises in leather.

Northampton University, incorporating The British School of Leather Technology.

"The British School of Leather Technology at the University of Northampton is a world-leader in the provision of leather technical education. The Company's historical interest in the School dates back to 1909, when it established the Leathersellers' Technical College on Tower Bridge Road, London. The College was amalgamated with the leather department at Nene College in 1976 and a new centre for leather education was created with a grant of £500,000 from the Leathersellers' Company. Opened in 1978, the National Leathersellers' Centre was immediately popular with overseas students, and with its growing international reputation in mind, its name was changed to the British School of Leather Technology in 1991.

Facilities at the BSLT include a tannery and extensive laboratories, all equipped with state-of-the-art machinery. Courses on offer range from BTEC certificates to postgraduate research degrees, and there are short courses in specialised areas tailored to individual requirements. The Leathersellers' Company provides on-going support in the form of grants and scholarships, and each year students are invited to attend an awards ceremony at the Hall."

http://www2.northampton.ac.uk/appliedsc ... ience/bslt

http://www.leathersellers.co.uk/simple. ... page_id=36

First I contacted Dr. Paula Antunes Senior Lecturer on the MSc Course and Field Leader - Leather Division

She very kindly put me in contact with Mr Paul Evans the Senior Lecturer for leather technology, In turn he referred me to Doctor David Scobie in New Zealand.

I will present my conversations with these people with as little comment as possible, they should do the talking.

Kt:
Dear Doctor Antunes,

Pardon my email from out of the blue. I was looking for an expert in leather and tanning processes to try and identify a defect in a piece of leather and I wondered if you might be able to help me.

Dr Antunes:
Thank you for contacting us. Our leather division is quite diverse in the subject matter we teach. Unfortunately I am not able help you on this matter, but I have spoken to one of my colleagues who is an expert in leather tanning and he is very happy to help you.

Mr Evans:
My name is Paul Evans I am the senior lecturer in leather technology, if you care to email a photo we can try and help.

KT:
Just so that you know and my apologies really as this is somewhat of a frivolous request. The leather in question is one used in a film on a jacket. You may recognise it, but to try and keep your opinion unclouded I'll not reveal what film to you right now. What I will say is, the jacket was made in 1980 and in the UK, we are told that the leather is lambskin.

There are various jacket enthusiasts who wear period accurate leather and there is a discussion as to what the dots on the chest of this jacket are. In your opinion what do you think caused these marks.

Thank you. Image attached.



Mr Evans:

Thanks – there are one or two things that I can state about the Leather

1 – This Lamb – possibly the meat should have been sold as mutton i.e. an older animal.
2 – Wool sheep – likely to be UK, Australian, possibly New Zealand, from a Merino or Merino X
3 – The dots are what is termed Ribbiness – this is where the skin generally follows the pattern of the ribs

Academic Paper:
Skin wrinkles of the sire adversely affect Merino and halfbred pelt characteristics and other production traits

D. R. Scobie A , C , S. R. Young A , D. O’Connell A and E. Eythorsdottir B

A AgResearch Limited, Canterbury Agriculture and Science Centre, PO Box 60, Lincoln, Canterbury, 8152, New Zealand.
B Agricultural Research Institute, Keldnaholt IS-112, Reykjavik, Iceland.
C Corresponding author.


Abstract

The wrinkles on the skin of Merino sheep and related breeds are retained during leather processing, and the skins are known as ‘ribby pelts’ in the leather trade.

Wool sheep have a very loose structure, when they are very woolly the wool is tightly packed so the skin goes into folds to accommodate this and there is often some delamination between the grain surface and underneath layers due to fat cells, all this gets worse in older animals – therefore true lambs tend to have very little of this problem.

Kt: Thank you for such in depth answers.

I had been told that the dots come from an enzyme added to the tanning process or from a deliberate change in the ph. Is this true?

Mr Evans: Some tanners I have seen in India deliberately encourage the effect – creating a “shrunken” look which accentuates the natural skin variations – this is usually done with pH.

KT: Is this skin showing the same effect or is it something totally different?

Sample A Peter's Shrunk lamb



Sample B Tony's 'white' leather.



Mr Evans: The dyed photo looks to be like this – deliberate and less natural – it is also not likely to be quite as soft, drapey or stretchy as the original – it looks misshapen and not like a whole skin almost as though it has been been sided, which is most unusual for a sheep.

The bottom picture (light blue crust) looks slightly different and more like the coat, natural effect.

Kt: This has been called Shrunken Lamb, Or Preshrunk Washed Lamb would either that be an appropriate trade description?

Mr Evans: The answer is yes – it possibly means that they may have obtained the effect by a mixture of chemical and mechanical processing (drumming dry like a washing machine).

Kt: Is Crispe leather the same thing?

Mr Evans: Sorry not heard of it.

Kt: Does blue crust mean that the leather has been chrome tanned?

Mr Evans: Probably – chrome tanning produces wet blue leather that can be fat liquored and dried – the colour is a pale blue colour – normally called Pearl crust.

Kt: Would veg tanning produce something different?

Mr Evans: Yes, much more shrunken, natural looking, firmer, not as flexible and undyed a tan colour.

Kt: Am I using those terms correctly?

Mr Evans: yes, Leather nomenclature is quite flexible in its description.

Kt: One last one, is there anyway that the ribbed marks may have happened by bad flaying, I've seen a rotary flayer used that 'might' have caused something like that? It was like a drum where the skin was basically pulled onto.

Mr Evans: No it is definitely not caused by bad flaying – it is definitely accentuation of natural sheepskin growth marks.

The machine you talk about is likely to give longitudinal wrinkles and in extreme cases “butcher’s strain” or broken grain.

Kt: The ribby leather, was it particularly popular in the late 70's / early 80's, was it commonly available for some reason would it have been cheap?

I get the impression that it is considered low quality is that true, and is it available/expensive/cheap today?

Mr Evans: Leather for this kind of jacket more readily was readily available then – because wool sheep leather jackets were not regarded as being the best leathers for clothing, due to the looks that were on that jacket – natural skin characteristics such as ribbiness, wool was more important often than meat (skins are a by product of the meat industry) and people ate a more natural sheep meat – mutton (fattier), which were older animals etc and there was less cross breeding to give the modern leaner “lamb” which have a much shorter life span and hence a better quality skin.

i.e Leathers produced were Unsophisticated, rugged etc – a throwback to Aircrew jackets in WW2.

Less International trade in Leather therefore countries generally used what was available in their own countries, in the UK Sheep, Cow and Pig – but from Europe some goat and a lot of Meat from New Zealand (and pickled wool sheep skins – converted into clothing and chamois wash leathers) – more expensive was particular sources from hair sheep from Ethiopia, Abyssinia – gloving, clothing and a footwear (ladies).

Ignoring Exotics. – general pricing of garments

Much higher prices were for garments from Hair sheep (look similar to goat) – these are naturally thinner, tougher, less fatty, finer grained skins (animals are normally Mediterranean to hot climates and have thinner straight hair) –they have no need of insulation to keep warm – and give a much more sophisticated, thinner (0.4 – 0.6mm thickness) with a smoother surface, more delicate, less finished leather.

Also from cow calf and cow – which although naturally have a much thicker skin are split down to give a uniform thickness (0.5 – 0.9mm) have a finer grain pattern than wool sheep but not hair sheep (hair thickness / follicles), calf good for a fine suede or nubuck

This followed by Goat, coarser grain, but more uniform, natural toughness and thinner (0.6 – 1.0mm) and a nice fine suede.

Wool sheep, greasiness, looseness (lots of wrinkles), not strong (unless heavy weight, usually need about 1mm thick)), surface not very fine as a consequence they were heavily pigmented crude finishes to cover up surface defects (Tending to crack in wear)

Wool sheep have been cross bred to have longer, thicker and curlier hair = WOOL – basically bred from roman times in the UK to give more and better wool and meat, diluting the natural sheep breed types as found on Rare breeds farms (Scottish island types such as Ronaldsay etc = which are similar to the Hair sheep of today).

and finally Pig skins – coarser, tough, split down, greasier, grains and suedes.

Obviously there were exceptions in terms of brand names and specialities such as double face (cut wool on inside of jackets etc).

TODAY – generally the same holds true in terms of price – but processing is more scientific and can control natural characteristics better – so the look is rarer and thus due to supply and demand is more sought after and may have increased in value compared with Cow.

I then sent a email to Dr Scobie who is quoted for his research above he sent me this email back and a picture of the skin straight off the sheep (little bit PG13 I'm afraid).

Kt: Dear Dr Scobie,

I read with interest your findings on ribby pelts in Marino sheep as I have been trying to match an effect on some leather and this appears to be what I am looking for. Would you be kind enough to point me at any pictures you know of, of the pelts or the leather in question?

Dr Scobie:

Absolutely I will. In fact I would also like you to put a premium on the purchase of these pelts so that people will sell all their sheep with wrinkles for slaughter and then not have the problem in the future. Mind you if by putting a premium on the pelts you encourage them to continue breeding wrinkly sheep I will track you down in Surrey and talk to you until I bore you to death.



Please do not bombard these kind people with emails, they have been very accommodating already! Mr Evans didn't quite place the first pic, but he was not surprised when I told him what it was.

Thanks to:

Dr. Paula Antunes BSc(Hons), MSc, PhD
Mr. Paul Evans MSc, BSc Chem Eng, AMCST
Dr. David Scobie AgResearch Limited

UPDATE

I've had further conversations with Dr Scobie directly following on from his 'I'll track you down" joke.

I sent him the original cropped front of jacket image with the question:

KT: Dear David,

I can tell it's a matter close to your heart!

Here is the leather I am trying to match is it the same effect?

Dr Scobie: Yes that is it. It is a milder form and may in some cases be called blind rib. This is not uncommon in crossbreds the more extreme forms are more prevalent in Merino.
Cheers
Scobie

I then sent him the big skin I had taken a picture of.

KT: This seems to me to be from an older animal due to the size. Am I right in thinking that the centre would be where the spine would be, and that is why the pattern is less prominent there? Or am I totally interpreting the skin wrongly? This is maybe 3 ft wide and 5 foot long.

Dr Scobie: To be that size trimmed, that has to be from an adult sheep, you are right about the spine running down the middle. The wrinkles can be symmetrical about this line but only about as symmetrical as tigers stripes are so they are not perfect. It is a great way to add some interesting effects to what you are making but you do kind of need to say that each one is different somewhere in your marketing.
Best wishes
Scobie

As you can see Dr Scobie has got the impression that I'm trying to source the leather to make make and sell jackets, which is not the case.

Then I sent him the 2 truck images, the one with texture only on the left and the one with txture all over the back, as you can see the answer was not as conclusive as I would have liked, so it leaves the door open to interpretation.

Dr. Scobie: Crikey I am not sure – it could even be an effect of the stitching. The first shot you sent of a jacket in sombre lighting was definitely a ribby sheep skin. To be honest you could reproduce this “type” of jacket using the skins of a number of species with cheap bits of leather from the belly and a variety of other skin regions. In the 90s when I was working on this stuff they were calling them “distressed leathers “. If you want to go the full ribby pelt path I could point you to a couple of potential suppliers.

Coincidence that two of my interests should one day come together. I have a genuine Stetson copy of Indiana Jones hat from The Raiders of the Lost Ark, although I lost the pin out of it somewhere in the last 20 years. I should probably get one of these jackets when you make some.

regards
Scobie

So it seems we have found a kindred spirit!

This is amazing research. Well done KT! This sort of thing is the very reason I decided to join as a member here. Awesome information. The folks on this board keep amazing me with the depth of research they take on. So did you ever tell them what film this was from?

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is awesome! Plus it ties in with what Peter has been saying all along, that it is Sheep leather ! Thank you for taking time to discover this !

Interesting that he'd not heard the 'Crispe' term before.

Kevin Anderson wrote:Interesting that he'd not heard the 'Crispe' term before.

Maybe, maybe not. Bink found it in an online glossary so it is used. It is a French term, if you key in 'Mouton Crispe' on ebay France you'll get lots of hits, mouton is sheep.

Thanks for the learned confirmation, KT.

SD

Well done KT!



Thanks for sharing your research and sources.

- Mac

This is really something Jason.

Thanx for sharing this very interresting info.


'High regards'
Holt

From the glossary of the International Union of Leather Technologists and Chemists Societies:

http://www.iultcs.org/leather_terms/r.asp

Ribbiness: Naturally occurring defect in woolled sheepskins, especially of the merino, finer wool types, consisting of numerous long, raised ridges on the surface, usually running across it in parallel lines from the backbone to the belly and flanks.

- Mac

First class, Kt! Well done!

Great info KT!

Now, some months ago I believe I said it was probably from older sheep who get wrinkly as they get older, like the rest of us. Hah! Not too scientific, (and missed a lot of the climate/wool variation descriptions - fascinating), but I thought I was being pretty reasonable.

Really KT, absolutely great information. So much around us is bound to other things - dietary preferences, processing, sometimes "they just don't make it like they used to" really applies.

Thanks again!

Excellent KT, now that's what I call solid and thorough research!

I think it has been said before but for good measure, I will add that Crispé is most definitely a French term. I imagine that is why he is not familiar with it's usage since it apparently has not carried over into common usage in English

Here is some information taken from the link below:

"French term or phrase: mouton crispé...
shrunken [or drawn] grain sheepskin

Explanation:
When translating leather terms, it is very important to know the actual terms used in the leather industry.
When a light leather such as sheepskin is washed and allowed to shrink, the leather is drawn in. The washing and resulting shrinkage allows the the grain to be enlarged and enhanced, so that it has the "crispé" effect.
While shrunken grain and drawn grain may be synonymous, the CTC gives 'shrunken' as the translation for "crispé" and I think that 'shrunken grain' may actually be used more in advertisements than 'drawn grain' for finished pieces".

http://tinyurl.com/pr992k

My French dictionary also gives the definition of the word crispé itself as: tense, on edge
"crisper" is: to tense, to clench, to irritate
"se crisper" is: to tense up, to get irritated
"crispation" is: contraction, irritation
"crispant" is: irritating, frustrating

Thank you for sharing that Kt

It supports the research previously done by neutronbomb.

Did you also send them these photos?

If you clicked the thumbnails you'd know.

The important fact: Australian merino sheep already have the ribby pelt. It is not mechanical and does not need any special processing to produce it.

Kt Templar wrote:If you clicked the thumbnails you'd know.

The important fact: Australian merino sheep already have the ribby pelt. It is not mechanical and does not need any special processing to produce it.

I did click the thumbnails, (You don't need to be surly.) but meant to put up a different photo for the first, which isn't what Peter has ever referred to a shrunken lamb, but lined lamb.




There is also the distinct impression that Australian Merino sheep with wrinkled pelt is not so common, and the effect can be otherwise be brought out or emphasised with enzyme/PH adjustment.
The photo http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4688/figure285.jpg is not a processed pelt/hide. It would be nice to see a photo of it finished.

RCSignals wrote:It supports the research previously done by neutronbomb.

I have to disagree with you here, RC. By my read, tanning can accentuate the marks, but they are not exclusive to, or a product of, "shrunken grain" tanning and, in fact, can appear on freshly flayed sheep.

Freshly Flayed:


TN 30 year old Shrunken Lamb:

Mr. Evans wrote:3 – The dots are what is termed Ribbiness – this is where the skin generally follows the pattern of the ribs

Jan 07:
viewtopic.php?p=285132#p285132

Puppetboy wrote:BTW, the "stripes" on the jacket in the screen cap are the natural stretch marks in lambskin. They radiate perpendicular to the spine of the animal. G-MANN has some of those on his jacket. In more finished leather they cover them up, but they are visible in leather with a more natural grain.

- Mac

Mac wrote:

RCSignals wrote:It supports the research previously done by neutronbomb.

I have to disagree with you here, RC. By my read, tanning can accentuate the marks, but they are not exclusive to, or a product of, "shrunken grain" tanning and, in fact, can appear on freshly flayed sheep.

Freshly Flayed:


TN 30 year old Shrunken Lamb:

Mr. Evans wrote:3 – The dots are what is termed Ribbiness – this is where the skin generally follows the pattern of the ribs

Jan 07:
viewtopic.php?p=285132#p285132

Puppetboy wrote:BTW, the "stripes" on the jacket in the screen cap are the natural stretch marks in lambskin. They radiate perpendicular to the spine of the animal. G-MANN has some of those on his jacket. In more finished leather they cover them up, but they are visible in leather with a more natural grain.

- Mac

The problem with the freshly flayed photo is just that, it is freshly flayed and not finished.

I suggest you re read neutronbomb's lengthy posts on his findings.

The impression I get from the New Zealand expert is that is it an existing characteristic in their sheep and although it was originally bread in to increase wool yields it ends up with poorer quality wool and skins.

Drawn or shrunken skin can be made from other animals, the ribbyness is just a quirk of this particular breed. If done to regular lambskin you get a cellular grain, the 'croc' effect. However this can be controlled by degree so a subtler effect can be had.

A semi drawn merino with light ribby characteristic would give us something like what we have been looking for. Plus it would have the stiffer 'old style' feel to the leather that is missing from modern young lamb.

RCSignals wrote:The problem with the freshly flayed photo is just that, it is freshly flayed and not finished.

Isn't that the point? In finishing the leather is buffed and plated to remove imperfections. The striations are there before the skin has been tanned. If they are not removed in finishing they would be there regardless of the tanning method.

Peter wrote:we put in the bits of skin that most makers cut out that is the stretch marks on the neck and ribbing

- Mac

However Kt, the 'croc effect' as you call it Kt is only one type of shrunken lamb effect. There are other effects which have been described, and one is the 'lined' effect (seen on the 30 year old hide and the white hide). All of these effects are drawn out of the hides by the enzyme,not created by the enzyme.
The white hide that was identified by Evan as 'light blue crust' is actually a finished shrunken lamb hide.

We already know that lamb as used in referring to hides can have little to do with the actual age of the sheep it came from.

Mac wrote:

RCSignals wrote:The problem with the freshly flayed photo is just that, it is freshly flayed and not finished.

Isn't that the point? In finishing the leather is buffed and plated to remove imperfections. The striations are there before the skin has been tanned. If they are not removed in finishing they would be there regardless of the tanning method.

Peter wrote:we put in the bits of skin that most makers cut out that is the stretch marks on the neck and ribbing

- Mac

You may be missing the point. We are talking about the marks left after the tanning process. The enzyme helps accentuate and retains the marks. It also gives properties to the hide .

Looking at the hides I'm not sure one could cut out those parts and still have a hide left to work with.

Find the more recent quote from Peter in which he states the hides were smooth leather.

Thing is, Shrunk lamb is not the original hide it is SHEEP and with a Ribby pelt !

I wonder if Peter can offer this hide for jackets.

Actually the raiders jacket are quite smooth but with the rib marks in them so he's right, I have seen several press stills and none display a croc / rhino effect. However they did display the ribb marks. So KT really did a great thing here and found out the truth behind the Original Raiders jacket hide. And put a lot of speculating and theories to rest;)

RCSignals wrote:However Kt, the 'croc effect' as you call it Kt is only one type of shrunken lamb effect. There are other effects which have been described, and one is the 'lined' effect (seen on the 30 year old hide and the white hide). All of these effects are drawn out of the hides by the enzyme,not created by the enzyme.
The white hide that was identified by Evan as 'light blue crust' is actually a finished shrunken lamb hide.

We already know that lamb as used in referring to hides can have little to do with the actual age of the sheep it came from.

You can see how small that raw hide is. To be big enough to make jackets from especially after it has been shrunk. It has to be older. But as you can see even on one that young the ribby character is obvious.

I was surprised he called the white leather blue crust too. I'm guessing that first stage leather is that blue white and can be identified as such. Only later is the colour added, but I suppose you can stop at crust as it is essentially tanned, just add back the fats and that's it.

RCSignals wrote:You may be missing the point. We are talking about the marks left after the tanning process. The enzyme helps accentuate and retains the marks.

My friend, the point is that the striations are rib marks: a "naturally occurring defect in woolled sheepskin,… consisting of numerous long, raised ridges on the surface, usually running across it in parallel lines from the backbone to the belly and flanks."

Mr. Evans wrote:Wool sheep, greasiness, looseness (lots of wrinkles), not strong (unless heavy weight, usually need about 1mm thick)), surface not very fine as a consequence they were heavily pigmented crude finishes to cover up surface defects

It doesn't sound like tanning is needed to accentuate the marks, on the contrary, it seems like the problem is getting rid of them (or perhaps hiding them by tanning with "crude finishes to cover up surface defects.")

RCSignals wrote:Find the more recent quote from Peter in which he states the hides were smooth leather.

No need, same quote:

Peter wrote:I am not saying there was texture, there was none just that we put in the bits of skin that most makers cut out that is the stretch marks on the neck and ribbing

- Mac

Good job KT! That realy is some usefull information!

Neutronbomb, Thank you for digging as well!

Now we finaly have a great thread filled with facts on the subject in stead of only guesswork

Regards, Geert

KT,
I applaud you going out and doing this. As with neutronbomb's effort, I'm sure this sort of research adds to the overall knowledgebase for us to draw from.

However, what you're saying is that you only presented the weird white hide as a comparison to be representative of "shrunken lamb"? I took your advice to RC, and the answer to the questions seems to be...no?

It's kind of limiting to a proper discussion not to really bring the tanning processes into the equasion in a more cause & effect way. Even if the marks are there while the hide is "raw", isn't the point of that process to either stretch them, creating a smooth hide, thus a different end product to what you see in that newly-slaughtered shot, or adding enzymes as per nb's account, which accentuates the rougher elements of the whole hide, inclusive of these marks.

Remember, what we are really discussing here is the WHOLE jacket, not just the weird lines.

What you've presented confirms nb's case that the hides could NOT have been smooth - the guy even notes that method isn't really used anymore whereas it was in that era. But we need feedback re the other hides RC mentions, and perhaps other examples, as well as more specific info from the tanning end.

So, for now what I take from this is the so called smooth "Authentic Lamb" should really be "Rough Mutton", yes?

(and ok, i took too long to respond and other have in the meantime - now time to read them!)

OK, thanks NB. And I take your point re KT's sources. They shouldn't be pestered by everyone. However, we really need more info of the type I've outlined, in order to both get an assessment of the other shrunken examples, and to tie the 2 lots of research together.

This will hopefully mean we have an unbiased account, from experts, with no key info missing from any one set of sources that could lead to bias by omission. (My PhD days creeping in, sorry.)

Guys, it looks like we we are coming to sort of equilibrium and that makes me quite happy. There are many different reasons and different explanations for why something looks the way it looks.

I personally believe that the New Zealand sheepskins that Peter used on the Raiders were lightly ribbed, they were retanned in a standard (although veg drummed) way so did not become highly puckered and were more 'traditionally' stiff in comparison to modern supersoft full chrome lambskins. This doesn't mean board like. The leather has a little more body, the ToD I handled was a bit like this, and as such modern washed goat is a good alternative as it also has a little of the stiffness shown in that old jacket.

NB the big hide you see is a cowhide, it has been treated to the same ph adjusted shrinking. That's why it's so big. it definitely isn't mechanically stamped.

NB also note the ribbed lamb pic you show there is an old lamb/sheepskin I found at Peter's. It is obviously a merino and part of a veg tanned stack he was experimenting with.

Kt Templar wrote:
NB the big hide you see is a cowhide, it has been treated to the same ph adjusted shrinking. That's why it's so big. it definitely isn't mechanically stamped.

Can you confirm that as previously it was reported as adult sheep?

Kt Templar wrote:NB also note the ribbed lamb pic you show there is an old lamb/sheepskin I found at Peter's. It is obviously a merino and part of a veg tanned stack he was experimenting with.

Is it not the same hide as this, labeled as shrunken lamb above, just photographed in a differet location.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/337/unknown1m.th.jpg

1 Yes, I can 100% confirm that the big skin is cow.

2 I took the pic of the ribby skin, it is looks different to me. If you can match up the wrinkles then it's the same I suppose.

To me the 2 look different, the outside shot has a matt finish, the one Peter took inside seems to have a slightly shiny more refined finish, looks like a modern skin.

I say this because I've seen both types and quite a few in between at the barn.

He has a small sample that is 'holy grail' like at least to me, deep rich colour like the Bantu, slightly shiny, very light rib, very light croc and it's soft like modern lamb. Unfortunately, the tannery that made it is gone now.

Kt Templar wrote:He has a small sample that is 'holy grail' like at least to me, deep rich colour like the Bantu, slightly shiny, very light rib, very light croc and it's soft like modern lamb. Unfortunately, the tannery that made it is gone now.

How about a photo KT!

- Mac

Mac wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:He has a small sample that is 'holy grail' like at least to me, deep rich colour like the Bantu, slightly shiny, very light rib, very light croc and it's soft like modern lamb. Unfortunately, the tannery that made it is gone now.

How about a photo KT!

- Mac

All in good time!

The depth of knowledge in this forum never ceases to astound me.....Awesome work!

...You did warn the good Dr. Evans and associates that now they've 'really stepped in it', didn't you?

PyramidBlaster wrote:The depth of knowledge in this forum never ceases to astound me.....Awesome work!

...You did warn the good Dr. Evans and associates that now they've 'really stepped in it', didn't you?

Yup, due warning given.

One thing that convinces me on the sheep idea is: Shrunken lambskins are TINY. If you look at the pic of the raw skin I posted some of the shrunken lamb I've seen are 25% smaller. You will never get a sleeve out of that skin let alone a back!

The ribbed skin I photographed was pretty big 3 foot by 6 or so. Pretty big for a lamb?

Again, calling something lamb is much more commercially viable. Calling something sheepskin only makes people think of big woolly flying jackets. Sheep's leather is not particularly sexy sounding either.

neutronbomb wrote:9. Cutting around these ribbing striations does not seem like a viable option

From the South African Journal of Animal Science 2000, 30(Supplement 1), A comparison of leather properties of skins from ten different South African sheep breeds

PDF here:
http://ajol.info/index.php/sajas/articl ... 3941/11746

The appearance of small ribs on some of the Afrino skins would, however, offset the superior physical leather properties. As there is a large variation within the Afrino breed with regard to the extent of ribbiness of the skin, it would be difficult in practice to classify Afrino skins separate from Merino skins…

Apparently Merino sheep are highly prone to ribbiness, but other sheep can have some degree of rib as well. Rib does not appear exclusively on Merino sheep. On skins with a small amount of rib, as on Todd’s prototype jacket, it would likely be the norm to cut it out, as it is generally undesirable.


viewtopic.php?p=285132#p285132

Also there is this:

After processing of the skins to undyed crust, the skins, with the exception of the Merino skins, were shaved down to a substance of 0.7 - 0.9 mm. The Merino skins could not be properly shaved due to the ribbiness of the skins.

This confirms that the rib is present, and apparently quite pronounced, after tanning (crust is tanned leather that has not been further processed), and does not require the shrunken grain process to accentuate and retain the marks.

- Mac

Kt Templar wrote:1 Yes, I can 100% confirm that the big skin is cow.

thanks Kt that explains a lot about the look and grain of it. It's a different animal

I understand what you are saying, there are obviously many ages at which sheep/lamb/hogget can be slaughtered. There may be a sweet spot between age, size and heaviness.

I've postulated in the past that the lamb used may have been hoggetts rather than lamb just for the more rugged look and for size.

Plus skins can always be split/skived down to an acceptable thickness.

That Todds jacket looks so awesome.

Why doesnt he make more of these with the ribb marks?

they'r just so raiders.

The purpose of exhibiting Todd's jacket is to show that you can have some few rib marks, which can be cut out, rather than multiple striations over the entire skin.

No, I don't think you can cut out those particular rib marks, which is likely why it wasn't used.

Holt, Todd told me that only one skin out of that particular batch had rib marks, that it was "just regular lambskin," and that he doesn't have a source for it currently.

- Mac

neutronbomb wrote:
Is this what Peter did. Did he get fully adult NZ sheep hides and split/skived them down to acceptable thickness.

He bought pickled NZ sheepskins in the blue.

What the original tanneries did with it is lost in history.

Leather is a natural product. Maybe there was more than one vat being tanned at the same time and the ph got skewed in one, sure, it is possible.

Raider's Ripples...sounds like an Ice Cream flavor.

Interesting discussion. Thanks for the education...from all the participants!

Wow amazing info!! Thanks KT for your time on this and I have to say, this might be the most interesting thread that I have read in a long time.

Great work KT!
I learn something new here everyday-I love this hobby!

Excellent research! Thanks, KT!

Great investigation KT!! I also think that Neutron's theory, based in many hours of resarch and investigation, has a lot of sense and fits perfectly with your descriptions. This is a great thread, guys. Congratulations to both of you.

neutronbomb wrote:Of course Mac. I'm trying to keep my focus on the actual skins used in ROTLA which have been credited to be from NZ which present as having the ribbing striations throughout the hide and used in the ROTLA jacket(s) and that present as shrunken lamb.

After 'normal' tanning some may still show slightly, as on the jacket by Todd, but it is a rare occurrence, as reported by Todd, and not easily sourced.

The shrunken lamb process allows the markings to be retained and accentuated, in their original multiple occurrence, as we see on that one ROTLA jacket. It's all over it, not just on the upper section of the front panel, as is common with shrunken lamb. The 'lining' or ribbing' as previosuly stated is only from certain species or breeds of sheep. The 'Hawaii' jacket showed a different effect as duplicated on whiskyman's and Chris King's first jacket (as well as other peoples) TN Raiders.

RCSignals wrote:

neutronbomb wrote:Of course Mac. I'm trying to keep my focus on the actual skins used in ROTLA which have been credited to be from NZ which present as having the ribbing striations throughout the hide and used in the ROTLA jacket(s) and that present as shrunken lamb.

After 'normal' tanning some may still show slightly, as on the jacket by Todd, but it is a rare occurrence, as reported by Todd, and not easily sourced.

The shrunken lamb process allows the markings to be retained and accentuated, in their original multiple occurrence, as we see on that one ROTLA jacket. It's all over it, not just on the upper section of the front panel, as is common with shrunken lamb. The 'lining' or ribbing' as previosuly stated is only from certain species or breeds of sheep. The 'Hawaii' jacket showed a different effect as duplicated on whiskyman's and Chris King's first jacket (as well as other peoples) TN Raiders.

It is a rare(r) occurrence in sheep other than the Merino breed, but diverse breeds may exhibit some ribbiness.

Mr. Evans wrote:Thanks – there are one or two things that I can state about the Leather
…
2 – Wool sheep – likely to be UK, Australian, possibly New Zealand, from a Merino or Merino X
3 – The dots are what is termed Ribbiness – this is where the skin generally follows the pattern of the ribs

Merino skins are readily available, but little used for garment leather. Merinos are bred for their famous wool, rather than its unsightly wrinkly skin – predominantly in wool producing countries, such as the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. The degree of rib on a particular skin may be light, medium, or heavy and they are graded and sold as such.

http://www.aitopper.com.au/english/sheepskins_eng.html

In the non-merino skins Todd was utilizing it was essentially a random occurrence, thus precluding a steady supply. When ribbiness does occur it is usually cut out or minimized in finishing.

Peter wrote:THE RIB MARKS ,TICK MARKS AND MACHINE SKINNING STRETCH MARKS ARE TYPICAL OF NEWZEALAND AND AUSTRALIAN SKINS AND WERE ALL PUT INTO THE JACKETS TO ADD CHARACTOR WHICH IS WHAT YOU SEE.
IT WAS NOT SHRUNKEN LAMB.

Peter wrote:we put in the bits of skin that most makers cut out that is the stretch marks on the neck and ribbing

- Mac

GREAT REASERCH KT!!! THIS is truly amazing info,I wonder how long it will take one of the jacket vendors to make a jacket with a mixture of these type of skins and who wiil it be?? I know I for one would be iterested in buying a jacket with some of these carecteritics.

Update at the end of the first post.