Club Obi Wan

OK . I have a big problem. I Just finished braiding the thong for my 6' 4 plat red hide stock whip, so now im starting on the handel. I tried to plat it in 8 plait but keept getting confused, so i decided to practis with 4 and when i was abel to get that dow pretty good i would use 8. I have an instruction booklet that tells you how to plat in both 4 ,8,and 12 plat . The problem im having is when i am plaiting the handle it looks really good on the side im looking at but when I turn it around to the back it looks TERABLE . the frunt looks like its supposed to but the back looks like i just made Exes whith my strands . I mean its not even close to the frunt part Ive studied the instructions alot and im doing every step it shows me . So i nead to know what am i doing wrong ?

Sorry for the bad spelling .

Caber

Hi Caber,

There are different patterns that can be used for 8 plait but the standard herringbone
pattern is to to start with 4 strands on each side of the work. If starting with the right side,
reach between the second and third strand on the left side and around back to grab the top
strand on the right side. Guide this around the back and between the second and third strands on the left, pull tight and bring over the front of the work on the right hand side. This strand will now be the last(bottom) strand on the right hand side.

Switch hands so that the work is being held in the left hand and reach through the second and third strands on the right side, around the back and grab the top strand on the left. Bring this through, pull tight, and lay/cross over the front of the work so that the strand now becomes the last strand on the left.

Note: When grabbing the strand from behind the work, be sure to grab it close to the handle to reduce the chance of the strand twisting when brought around to the front.

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Scott

NOTE: I assumed you were looking for the standard herringbone pattern but some handle use a diamond plait (each strand over/under each other). Can you expand on what type of pattern you're wanting for the handle?

Ya this did help some but it still doesnt look quite right on the back.

4 plait is the one that looks the worse . the back just isnt even close . what would you suggest i do there

Thanks for the help

Ya this did help some but it still doesnt look quite right on the back.

4 plait is the one that looks the worst . the back just isnt even close to the frunt . what would you suggest i do there

Thanks for the help

Sounds a lot like you're not using enough strands to cover the entire handle. When this happens, the front looks okay where you're braiding everything, but the back will have huge gaps all over the place. How wide is your handle, and how wide are your strands?

-Will

The strands are 3/8 " wide and and the handle is a stock whip handle . At big end it is 3/4" and wher im stating the brading is a little over 1/2 " more like 4/8". They were pre cut for this handle by a Mike Murphy

Hmmm...nope. Your strands are fine. Just make sure when you bring a strand around the back that it's nice and high. Also, make sure that your strands are wrapping around the handle a little as you work them; don't just focus on the front where you do the weave. It's a little hard to explain. I always give my sets (one on either side) a tug pulling them towards the side of the thong facing away from me after working a few strands. Best of luck!

-Will

if I may butt in here... it sounds like that you may be taking the wrong strand when you come around the cane. For an 8plait you have 4 strands on each side. start with the 4 strands on your left side take the last of this 4 (the one in the back) and bring it to the right behind the cane and go under 2 over 2 on the right bringing the strand back to the left side. Now look at the right 4 strands and take the last one on that side (the last of the 4 in the back) and do the same thing. Just go slow and make sure your taking the last strand of the 4 on the left and the 4 on the right around the cane. Then just keep going under 2 over 2.

skip


Handmadewhips.com

Ok this does help. I have one other prob. When i start plaiting i cant seem to get the top tight enough and it has little ears sticking out like the leather is not skinny enough at that spot. Not sure what to do
Thanks for the help so far guys
Caber

Hi Caber, You have gotten good advice so far. I’m pretty familiar with the stock whip kit from Mike and have made them before too. When you start plaiting the handle, you may need to narrow the kangaroo strands a bit the middle. That’s what I had to do in order to get them to set tight & lock in correctly, Otherwise they are too wide. I think it might even mention this in the Ron Edwards booklet sent along with the kit,

Here are a few photos from a stock whip I made. The first photo shows how I start 8-plait herringbone pattern off on the cane handle. It is the same way as the book shows.

The second shows it finished, but notice though how I had to thin the strands
.

The third photo I am getting close to finishing the handle, it shows the pattern I follow, the same one Skip mentions.


The 8-plait braid is actually not as hard as you might think once you get going. The tricky part seems to be getting it started. It takes a little thinking and you might have to redo it a couple times but once you recognizing the pattern and see how the strands fit, just keep following that and pull the each strand tight and even. Keep at it and it will come to you, It can be challenging, but that is part of the whip making experience.

By the way it’s good to see you here Skip, Welcome

Dan

I did narrow the strands but i might not have gon far enough down the strands . I only narrowed about an 1.5" to 2 " down each strand. It looks like you went alot farther

BullWhipBorton wrote:
By the way it’s good to see you here Skip, Welcome

Dan

Good to be here Dan, Thanx.

@Caber

Better not enough than to much to start out with... Try to trim a bit more, start the plait and if you need more you can trim again. Are you using soap? A bit of plaiting soap would help to get a good pull on the strands..

The first time I did one of these I had to redo the handle a couple of times to get it to where I was satisfied, But each time I had to narrow the center of the strands a little more until it was just right. I thought I had notes on how much I trimmed off, but I seem to have misplaced them. Better to error of the side of caution though and take a little off at a time.

Ok I did what you guys said , and it helped allot. Im almost done with my handle . It doesn't look near as good as your's Dan. Some brades have tiny gaps between them. There not bad ,but anoying .How do i keep that frome happining in the future? Also How do you guys keep your strands tight when you are plaiting? I feel like I nead another hand to keep them tight . What is the right technique to doing this ?

If you have small gaps try pulling the strands at a different angle. To keep the strands tight the easiest way is to pull tight and anchor the braid with the thumb of the hand that's not pulling.

Also don't expect to get a perfect whip or even a good whip your first time. When I first started braiding David Morgan and Paul Nolan both told me it'd take about 100 whips to start consistantly turning out an OK whip (not a great whip, but a passable one).

xoxo
Louie
http://bullwhips.org

Ok ill try this . Im almost done with plaiting the handle . Is it ok to take it out to the point where the strands begin to split? Ive Taken it out like 15 times

What did you do with all you whip louie? Did you sell your beginer whips?

Early on I gave away a lot of whips to friends and I was selling some of my whips at a financial loss for probably the first year...but the experience I got was worth it.

If you are selling your whips its very important that you are honest that's it's your early work. There's someone on ebay right now that sells whips where the heel knot looks like a dog Buttercup and say in the listing "georgous turks head" or something like that.

The only "early" whip of mine that I still have is the first one that passed David Morgan's inspection. I worked soo long and soo hard to get to that point, so that whip is very special to me. I wish I had kept my first whip, but it's too late for that.

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

Did you send them to David through mail or did you take picks and send them over e-mail?
Do you make whips full time now ? . I mean can you make enough money to support your self?

I'm very lucky that I live about 30 minutes from David Morgan's shop and so I chat with him, Will and Meagan when I'm picking up roo hides.

I make whips because I enjoy making them, not for the money. For example right now I don't have any orders I'm making whips for, but I have three bullwhips that I'm working on.

There are a few whipmakers in the USA making a full time living out of bullwhips, but for me I don't want to HAVE TO make whips. I make them because I enjoy it.

In my opinion if you are starting to make bullwhips to make money I think you are doing it for the wrong reason. Guys like Joe Strain and Paul Nolan are artists, not laborers and from talking to both of them I get the feeling that they'd still make whips if there was no money in it.

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

AW YOU LUCKY MAN!!. I would do any thing to live that close to a pro whip maker. No one lives close to Arkansas


I want to make whips because I love whips. And I love to watch how all the strands of leather come together to make a whip. I just asked that because I don't see where you guys get the time if you are makeing them on the side

It's easy to come up with time to plait...you just need to know where to look to find free time.

The average American watches something like 145 hours of TV a month. Cutting some of that out makes for a lot of time in front of the plaiting hook.

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

Caber wrote:AW YOU LUCKY MAN!!. I would do any thing to live that close to a pro whip maker. No one lives close to Arkansas

What part of Arkansas Caber? I'm originally from Batesville.

Jim
http://www.texomawhips.com

I live In the Fort Smith , Van Buren , Alma area

So is it ok to undo my handle and start braiding it again? I mean will it hurt the leather strands any?

It shouldn't hurt the leather to rebraid it...especially on the handle where there isn't too much stress (unlike the thong of the whip).

No, it won't hurt at all Caber. Undo and redo until your satisfied with it.

Jim
http://www.texomawhips.com

OK Now I have a brand spanken new problem. Im done whth the handle and Im on the turk knot. It is a 3 part 4 bight. First off I dont get what that means.
I can get this thing started. This is how it goes.
1.Cross the strands and go arround once with the short end.
2. Go arround again with the short strand and tuck the end in
3.Turn the knob arround and cross the strands over eachother.
4. Put the end through the hole.
5.Bring it home against the other end.
Ok I can get this far.The next step is where i have the problem.
6.Take the long end and work back following along side the first strand.

This sounds easy but I can't figgure out where to Put my strand. I keep getting lost and I don't know wheather to put it under one strand or two. It never came out looking like it neaded to .
Pictures would help but I know that takes up alot of time

If you complete steps 1-5 on your list, then that's the knot. for number 6 all you are doing is taking the strand and following what you have already done to add a pass to the knot.

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

Well thats what I thought I did but it didn't turn out so hot .Im starting over

Ok I might have figgured out what my problem is . Do you put a pice of leather about 1/2 wide arround the area where the Turks knot will be and then braid over it?

I have bean and it seems like its messing me up . I thought it was supposed to be there but now im not sure

I'm not sure I am properly visualizing what you are talking about. The 1/2 inch leather? Is that what you are making your knot foundation out of? If it is then you need that, it's what will give you knot more bulk than if you just tied it to the handle.

louie
http://bullwhips.org

Caber wrote:Ok I might have figgured out what my problem is . Do you put a pice of leather about 1/2 wide arround the area where the Turks knot will be and then braid over it?

Yes. There should be a strip of leather included in the kit that you use to bulk up the end of the handle and tack it securely into place like so.

Then tie a 3 part 4 bright knot over that using the pattern shown in the book


Turks head knots are tricky to tie; especially when you’re just learning them. There is no way around it other then to just keep at it, it’s a learning experience and even though you’ll probably have to retie it a few times before you get it just right, you’ll get it.

Dan

Ya thats the leather strip im talking about.

Wow you cross your strands all most on the top and bottom. How do you keep from getting kinks in you strands ?

It just takes a bit of practice, I retied that particular knot several times until I was finally happy with it. Some kinks and bunching can be expected as your tying, but they should even out as you start to tighten the knot and then more so when you roll it to smooth it out.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2433/dscf0059f.jpg

One more thing, it's possible that the strand you received for your turks head might have been cut a little too wide. If your seeing a lot of bunching and the 3 passes’ just don’t seem to want to fit without being crunched together, you may need to narrow the lace a little. I had trim about a 1/16” off of the lace for this knot, but once I did that it made the world of difference.

Ok this knot is kicking my rump. I wish I Had your problem BullWhipBorton. I cant even get the the knot to come out right . I have plaited and replaitd this knot so many times and i cant figgure out what where my problem is . I can get the first part down where you are using the short strand. but when it comes to the long strand , somthing goes wrong and my knot is all croked and not even . Some strands are really long and some realy short . Its just uggly . Some where i,ve messed up but i can't figgure where. GGGRRRRR

You have to be careful to keep your spacing even becasue its easy for the first part to get misshapen while your working on it and that can throw the knot out of wack. I can’t say for sure what’s going wrong though with out being able to see it. Once you have the first part done, you should just be able to follow the same patter with the long strand, to fill in the gaps.

You might want try to make up a separate mock up of the handle foundation and practice on that with a piece of cord rather then the leather. That way once you have the first part tied, you can pin it into place so it doesn’t move around then work on the second part of the knot. Doing this might help you figure out some of the mechanics of the knot and help you figure out what’s going wrong.

The more frustrated you get though the harder it will be, so you might want to walk away from it for a day or two and come back at it fresh.

Ok Thanks for the help . I went and got a pice of shoo string leather and tried to tie the turks head around a stick and i made it perfectly. I just have a hard time plaiting this knot with flat leather strands . I dont get why but i do

OK im doing better on the turks knot but im still not able to make one good enough to keep . My problem now is that once I get to the 3rd pass I don't have enough room for it . Also I have a hard time at the beginning getting the strands all even..

At least it sounds like you’re making some progress with the knot It’s a tricky one to get just right and it’s a bit harder to tie with flat lace then with round cord so don’t be discouraged.

If you can’t fit all three passes in the knot, the lace might be too wide. You might want to drop Mike Murphy a note too though and see what he thinks before you do any narrowing.

Somthing That is different with your knot than mine BullWhipBorton is that the gaps between your strand make a triangle. Mine make an ovel . Does this matter ?

I’m not sure. When I start to tie these, the openings do tend to be oval at first but then become more triangular (like shown in the booklets diagram) as I work them into position and set up the framework for the knot to cover end of the handle. That just seems to be how they sort themselves out at least for me, then when I have that set in place I’ll come around and follow with the other two passes and fill in the spaces.

I have worked for 3 weeks on this fturks head knot and i still cant get it . I dont know what to do now . Some one neads to make a video on how to make this thing . I would buy it LOL

Caber wrote:I have worked for 3 weeks on this fturks head knot and i still cant get it . I dont know what to do now . Some one neads to make a video on how to make this thing . I would buy it LOL

Hi Caber,

There are quite a few different books out there regarding turks head knots which would be good to pick up. Ron Edwards book "How to make whips" is definitely a great book for just all around general information on whipmaking and it includes a couple of different step by step diagrams on how to tie a couple of turks head knots. David Morgan's books have a few of them too, as well as Bruce Grant's book on braiding. Also, Bernie has a whipmaking DVD that you could buy that includes tying the turks head knots on a whip, so that would be a good visual. One of my favorite books that shows a HUGE variety of turks head knots is Tom Hall's book "Introduction to turks head knots", until I saw that book I hadn't fully realized how many different types of turks head knots there are.

Where you are at the moment is the toughest part, learning your first turks head knot. It takes A LOT of practice, but once you get it down and commit it to memory as well as understand how it is put together, after that when you try to learn a different turks head knot it will be MUCH MUCH easier.

If it makes you feel any better, when I first started out my first 15 whips or so didn't have any turks head knots on them for at least 4-6 months because I was having so much trouble with the knots and dreaded having to do them. I kept putting it off and putting it off, until finally one weekend I sat down for a whole day with a dowel rod and some lace, and I just followed the book trying to tie a good turks head, and no matter if it turned out good or not I undid it and tied it again. I did it over and over for about 8 hours straight until I could tie a somewhat decent turks head from memory. The next day I took the dowel rod and made up a variety of knot shape foundations and spent that day tying the knots over and over again on each of the foundations so I could learn how best to tie on the first passes and the placement of the strands while tying the base to get the best look and shape when the knot was finished. I learned a lot from that weekend, and it helped tremendously, but my turks head knots were still far from perfect, and they improved more and more over the years with practice. With turks head knots and just whipmaking in general it is something that takes A LOT of time, patience, determination, and practice-practice-practice.

If you keep at it, you will get there.

Something that would help quite a bit is if you could take a picture of one of your attempts, because it is really difficult for anyone to give advice or assistance if they can not see what exactly the issue or problem is. It could end up being something that is a very simple thing to fix.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
www.MidWestWhips.com

I just got a copy of the "Turkshead Cookbook" at http://www.knottool.com. There's a ton of different knots in that book...but it uses a "tool" to tie the knot around then you have to carefully move the knot to where you want it.

The book's method makes tying a good looking turkshead easy, but there are some downsides. The main downside to using a tool is that it's much faster to learn to tie a knot directly to the whip. Also when tying directly onto the whip you'll knot pretty early on if you lace is the correct width, but when you are tying on something else, then moving the knot it's harder to know how good of a fit the knot will be until after you transfer it and tighten it.

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

Thank you very much . Ill look in to these books . I will also try to load some pics this week

Ok here are some of the pics of my turks knot.

the first few are pics of the first pass.http://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28 ... CF0868.jpg[http://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28 ... CF0869.jpg

The next ones are are the second pass http://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28 ... CF0881.jpg

Now the third pass . This is not my best one . I ran out of room but on ever knot i have made these three strands are kinked . Not as bad as it is here thohttp://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/Caber666/?action=view&current=DSCF0885.jpghttp://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/Caber666/?action=view&curhttp://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/Caber666/?action=view&current=DSCF0884.jpgrent=DSCF0886.jpghttp://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/Caber666/?action=view&current=DSCF0890.jpg

Does this help

I think the leather you are capping the end with (the bit shaped like a PLUS SIGN) is too long. If you compare the picture of your to the one that BullwhipBorton posted, you'll see how far below the knot foundation yours is. I haven't seen the instructions that come with your kit, so don't take my word for it...but it's something to consider.

Also after tying the first pass, straighten that out then pull that pass firmly before starting the 2nd pass.

If you look at this picture:
http://s666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28 ... CF0877.jpg
you can see how loose all the strands are. The should be fairly tight by this point.

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

You are getting a lot of good information here. A book I want to second is the one suggested by Paul. Tom Hall's "Introduction to Turk's Head Knots" is the best I've seen. It will make you understand the knot, not just learn how to tie it. I'm not saying I understand it all , but it is a great book to learn with.

Jim

Hi Caber,

Thank you for posting the pictures, they really helped quite a bit!

I think Louie is quite right. There are two other things that stand out to me from the pictures:

One is that you have the knot covering pretty far down over the butt end of the handle. For a knot such as that one (a 3x4) it is a pretty short knot at 3 parts, so personally I don't think there is really enough knot to close up or even much over the bottom of the handle. For me a 5x4 would work better for something like that as it is a longer knot with 5 parts. One way to help with doing a 3x4 on that particular knot foundation would be to start tying it further up (towards the keeper end of the handle and away from the butt of the handle) on the foundation, so when you do the 2nd and third pass it should cover the top of the knot foundation leather, and down to the butt while still leaving the butt cover open. So in essence, tie the first pass of the knot (what I call the base knot) in the center of the foundation, and let the passes fill in the top, bottom, and center of the knot which will cover over the knot foundation leather.

The other thing is that I am pretty sure that the base knot you tied (the first pass) isn't correct. With almost every turks head knot that I have tied and seen, there is never a point where the strand will go over or under more than 1 strand as you follow it. Basically once you have tied the knot if you follow the strand around from the start it should always go under 1, over 1, under 1, over 1, etc... This might be a big part of where your problems are coming from when you go into the following passes, because where your strand goes over or under more than 1 strand it makes those strands looser when you go on to the following passes, and they will be able to be moved around when you finish the knot. The over 1 under 1 of turks head knots is what makes them lock in better and not be able to be moved around as much once the knot is finished.

Give it a try practicing tying the knot around a dowel or cylinder so you don't have to worry so much about placement on a foundation, and you can first focus on getting the knot tied correctly and understanding the mechanics of how the knot works and getting it tied tightly. I think that after that you should have a lot less trouble getting the knot to work on the foundation on the handle.

I hope this helps, and let us know how it turns out.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
www.MidWestWhips.com

As long as we're suggesting books on Turksheads, don't forget the two Ron Edwards books that are specifically on turksheads.

Louie
http://bullwhips.org