Club Obi Wan

Hi all,

I have a few sincere questions about the jacket I would respectfully like answered by people who actually know the answers for a fact. Peter, perhaps you could assist? I'd appreciate no trolling or arguments. I believe these questions cut to the core of our hobby as the issues involved in many ways define what's listed on the COW index page as "Leather Jacket: Discuss all of the intricacies of the jacket in full detail." It's hard to have this discussion correctly without muddying of the waters and snipey comments. I'd really just like facts or direct answers.

First a quick intro: When I entered this hobby I learned, like many, that Peter Botwright of Leather Concessionaires (now Wested) produced the original jackets. I learned he sells reporoductions of this jacket with a certificate of authenticity. I then orderd a Wested and paid about $570au to get my jacket. I ordered horsehide so wasn't expecting it to look like the leather texture in the move as I didn't order "Authentic Brown Lamb". When the jacket arrived, I liked the leather but the cut was off. It fit me well enough, but not like it looked in the movie. I thought this odd. This caused me to spend much time on COW reading the great info from people like _, Holt, Platon, Chris, etc. who had developed their own specs over the years. I couldn't understand why. If the jackets were provided by the original maker, using original patterns, what was going on? This questioning was exacerbated when I ended up trying a jacket by another maker and discovered it was pretty much spot on in terms of both cut and texture compared to others I had seen. Again, this seemed odd based on the claims of others.

Suffice it to say, I have learned a great deal since that first purchase and given the latest turn of events, with Wested releasing a new product, as a paying customer and COW member who is here to learn and discuss the intricacies of the jacket, I would quite sincerely like to ask:

- Why does Wested now need to "take the best features and recreate a complete set of new patterns based on this combination rather than alter my existing patterns" of other vendors jackets in order to achieve screen accuracy if Wested patterns are the authentic ones?

- How could the jacket I paid for be considered authentic if Wested believes it has to change the pattern for it to be so?

- If this is the case, how could COA's up until this point not be considered misleading at best?

- If Wested is replacing their own "in use" patterns with elements taken from other manufacturers, what is this pointing to?

- Putting aside the variety of names you could give shrunken lamb, French or otherwise, why would an incredibly smooth alternative have been substituted for many years with the word "authentic" in its title if Wested has now conceded it was a dimply / rough / shrunken hide on the original?

- Is it fair that we should expect any sort of moral recourse as paying customers since we had COA's that now seem to be boasting false claims?

I realise some people may find these questions inflammatory, but I believe they are fair ones and point to the facts we are all wanting. I hope the mods and COW admin will allow these legitimate questions to be posed even if the thread gets locked in the event people get too rowdy. I feel a moral obligation to ask these questions.

Sincerely, Kurt Schubert a.k.a. Yojimbo Jones.

Thank you for posting that Yokimbo. Well presented.

As a Wested owner I too await the answers. Hopefully the mystery of the Raiders jacket will be solved once and for all.

Yojimbo Jones wrote: I feel a moral obligation to ask these questions.

I think that this is, precisely, what is all about. Hopefully we will get some answers.

Yojimbo Jones wrote:I hope the mods and COW admin will allow these legitimate questions to be posed even if the thread gets locked in the event people get too rowdy. I feel a moral obligation to ask these questions.

It will as long as the usual suspects don't chime in and drop a dirty bomb on the issue.

I think it best to leave for Peter to answer…if he so chooses and not let it grow in speculation. Those of us who've been around long enough to see the changes could chime in, but I'd rather we didn't as it would only lead to more mud slinging, IMO.

Play nice.

Mike

So people who have bought Westeds for all these years thinking they were buying "authentic" Indy jackets should file a class-action lawsuit?

PSBIndy wrote:So people who have bought Westeds for all these years thinking they were buying "authentic" Indy jackets should file a class-action lawsuit?

No.

It would be interesting to read the answers to these questions and I'm glad someone asked them publicly so we micht all be able to lay this to rest. Thanks Yojimbo.

Regards, Geert

This is an old one and has often been raised directly and indirectly here.

I am still annoyed that the LC I got 7 years back did not look like the film one. Even my non-Indy friend picked up on this. Now I can handle some variations in a hand made product but when I am told it is an "exact copy" and I get a certificate further rubbing salt into the wound... If I had had COW back then, I would have worked out a different jacket option.

In the past when this issue has been raised, people have gotten quite vicious. But the fact remains, your product either lives up to your sales pitch or it does not. It's a simple empirical test.

Very good post, Yojimbo, and it raises several legitimate questions that I've wondered about myself (but phrased far more eloquently and tactfully than I could have managed). I'm hoping we can have these questions answered without the usual mudslinging starting up as well.

Well asked Yohimbo, you've raised clear, valid points that need to be addressed.......how many newbies have been drawn down the path of 'original maker' and gotten the same result you, I and many others ......"man this doesn't fit, look like it should"...

Some good questions, and while I think I know some of the answers, it's best not to speculate.

The biggest issue for me has been consistency. I know that there are many variables when sending in your own measurements, but still.

I think many of the questions apply to the LC jacket, too. That's as big a mystery to me.

I too bought my Wested based on what was presented to me as original and authentic, and while I do enjoy the jacket, I would like to have these questions answered.

I'd really like to hear Peter's take on it.

I bought my first Wested because it was an Indy jacket made by the original maker, not because I believed that some of its stitches were exactly in the same position than in a smaller jacket worn by Mr. Harrison 25 years earlier.

On the second jacket I cared more about the stitches but that's another story.

VP wrote:I bought my first Wested because it was an Indy jacket made by the original maker, not because I believed that some of its stitches were exactly in the same position than in a smaller jacket worn by Mr. Harrison 25 years earlier.

On the second jacket I cared more about the stitches but that's another story.

I'm not saying I expected mine to be stitch for stitch either, but there is a story here, and I'd like to hear it. It doesn't mean I don't love my Wested jacket.

VP wrote:I bought my first Wested because it was an Indy jacket made by the original maker, not because I believed that some of its stitches were exactly in the same position than in a smaller jacket worn by Mr. Harrison 25 years earlier.

On the second jacket I cared more about the stitches but that's another story.

You guys bring up a good point about that certificate... for me, I never thought it was something that said the jacket I was getting was 100% SA, only that I was getting a "Wested" and not something else.

I remember when there were maybe 3 jacket options and people would argue about which was better. It always came down to the battle between the Wested and the G&B. For some, it was more important having a jacket made by the company who made the Raider's jackets, even if they were a little off. For others it was more important to get a more SA jacket.

I don't think any of that has changed years later. Only exception is that we now have 6 or 7 jacket makers.

I think people are asking a bigger question: who in fact made the Raider's jacket (original maker question) and under what circumstances? That's the main thing I got from the questions in the first post.

Thank you for adding that. Were the basic patterns/mock-ups for a jacket already drawn up by a costume person or a company like Wilsons? This gets to the Bantu Wind photos of a very different looking jacket. Maybe this is why there are discrepencies in the pattern(s).

Back on track, everyone. It's veering off topic and this thread is on a fine line enough as it is. Let me remind you what has been stated since the beginning of this thread:

Mike wrote:

Yojimbo Jones wrote:I hope the mods and COW admin will allow these legitimate questions to be posed even if the thread gets locked in the event people get too rowdy. I feel a moral obligation to ask these questions.

It will as long as the usual suspects don't chime in and drop a dirty bomb on the issue.

I think it best to leave for Peter to answer…if he so chooses and not let it grow in speculation. Those of us who've been around long enough to see the changes could chime in, but I'd rather we didn't as it would only lead to more mud slinging, IMO.

Play nice.

Mike

Perhaps it's best not to post anything more until Peter himself comes in to answer this thread. Peter knows this thread is here and doesn't need anyone to inform him otherwise. Either he will or he won't post here. So again, folks should probably wait until Peter posts at this point to answer the initial questions posted in this thread. Hint hint.

Yep. As Rick said. That's it.

Peter is aware of the thread and already expressed reasons for hesitating to answer. I've written him personally to express views of the staff here and why we feel it important to answer. It is up to him whether or not he chooses to do so.

But until that time, we will tolerate no further postings to this thread. Aside from facts and defenses given by _, most everything else is speculation and veering off the topic which was what was warned about in my first post. Any further posts, besides Peter's will be deleted with no warning.

Let the man feel he has the ability to answer without getting hung.

Mike

Let me first take on board firstly the comments of Yojimbo Jones.
You all must realize that Harrison Ford in 1980 was a size 40+. Not a size 36" to 54".
These sizes had to be all graded down/up from the original pattern+ short, tall, fat and thin combo's.
Therefore it goes without saying that Yoyimbo's size 44 in heavy Horsehide was not going to look exactly
the same as a 40+ distressed lambskin.
The fact that another makers jacket fitted better is why I am here now. Why did it? Why would it?
Those were my questions.
To date I have not released and there is no NEW jacket.

To answer the questions:
To say taking the best features is really an exaggeration on my part as effectively all the jackets are identical.
It was more a matter of fine tuning the garment construction to fit people other than Harrison Ford yet retaining the look and seeing why people claimed one was better than the other. The base pattern or Block as it is known remains the same. It is some of the construction and appendages that have been breathed on. They are are not new patterns as in new style neither changed but had minor alterations checked and refreshed with construction done by my daughter Sally who is a top pattern maker for Jasper Conran a UK designer.

The COA remains valid as everything is based on the original pattern made by myself personally.

The subtle changes made by me and the other manufacturers is more to do with the fit of the body shell than the size of pockets, flaps etc.

The original jackets made by me were in the NZ Lamb/sheep skins as supplied to me by Turn Leather they were not rough or shrunken hide. I had no part in the breaking down and distressing as been clearly documented. This was done on set. I supply the jacket in smooth leather so that the person wearing it can either distress it himself or keep it as it is. A lot of people buy the jacket for its looks as a smart jacket not to be film authentic.
What I am doing now as a special project is to recreate that on screen worn distressed look using washed veg tanned lamb. It will hopefully be identical to the on screen jacket Raiders even to put the rib marks in the same position on the jacket.
If I do supply it it will be very limited as it will be my personal production, but don't hold your breath

I have not made false claims, I made the original pattern, I made the original jacket, I make affordable replicates based on that pattern and design.

I have no knowledge of a Keepler jacket other than the ones I supplied to him.
Other than that may I thank _ for his support in this matter.

I hope this answers your concerns.

Peter

Just to make things clear any reference to HERO patterns is that which my daughter put on it
so as not to confuse it with existing Raiders working patterns.

Um…the instructions from the admin were that nobody post UNTIL Peter did. As long as its kept civil and for the purposes of information seeking, this will remain open. The first barb thrown, the poster will be dealt with (see zero tolerance policy…again) and the post deleted, but not necessarily the thread.

Not dead air, _. I'm in Australia - we can be a bit behind here sometimes!
Last checked the site at 1:30am my time and I just got up, but have to go out. I'd like to reply to Peter's questions, but won't be able to for a couple of hours. Be back soon!

First, let me say I do REALLY APPRECIATE you addressing my concerns. However, it doesn't really answer them. I will attempt to clarify. (Note - just so you know why I'm coming out with all of this now, I was initially kind of happy with this jacket, was trying to rationalise why things didn't quite look /feel right, and it wasn't until I got a TN that it has really started to soak in - "Wait a minute?! - and I spent $500+ on this?")

PETER wrote:Let me first take on board firstly the comments of Yojimbo Jones.
You all must realize that Harrison Ford in 1980 was a size 40+. Not a size 36" to 54".
These sizes had to be all graded down/up from the original pattern+ short, tall, fat and thin combo's.
Therefore it goes without saying that Yoyimbo's size 44 in heavy Horsehide was not going to look exactly
the same as a 40+ distressed lambskin.
The fact that another makers jacket fitted better is why I am here now. Why did it? Why would it?
Those were my questions.

I'm just going to fire some responses roughly in the order that they address your reply. First, I'm guessing you've pulled my job file to get the 44". The thing is I specified a 43" chest on the custom form, but got 44" specs. Anyway, no biggie. I noted I wasn't expecting qualities of lamb because I ordered horse, of course. That would be an unfair expectation.

My concern was and is with the CUT and FIT. 1" extra on my arms aside, I have Ford's body specs, but didn't know this until I ordered from Tony, when I provided the same body measurements and jacket measurements I provided Wested. So, while I get that some big guy or small, skinny guy will have the issue of size conversion, and it would remove them further from the "real" patterns, I'm just not in that boat.

Yet the cut is dramatically different. As far as I can tell, there is a ton of extra leather from the chest to under the arm/side area, way too much around the waist, and ESPECIALLY sleeves cut so wide they feel like PVC downpipes by comparison to the cut of the Nowak. The collar is no way long enough, and generally the cut is chunky and boxy, and not angular and dynamic like both what we see onscreen and a Nowak. Why did the TN fit better? You tell me. This isn't my line of work. I'm just a customer - you're the expert. As far as I can tell tell, though, the pattern is simply different, with the affectations of the original. It can't possibly be said that I'm getting what either your website at the time or the COA at the time promises. (Please don't say it's because of the HH, as that won't affect measurements, and Holt's HH from you looks just dandy with all of HIS tweaks. I feel if I'm ordering what you are offering, and using the sizing guidelines you provide for me, I have a reasonable expectation that it should fit in the way those same patterns fit Ford. That's kind of the point of the exercise.)

PETER wrote:To date I have not released and there is no NEW jacket.

You've posted both a new prototype and a guy arrived on the board with a jacket saying you had said to him they had those new specs, or words to that effect.

PETER wrote:To answer the questions:
To say taking the best features is really an exaggeration on my part as effectively all the jackets are identical.
It was more a matter of fine tuning the garment construction to fit people other than Harrison Ford yet retaining the look and seeing why people claimed one was better than the other. The base pattern or Block as it is known remains the same. It is some of the construction and appendages that have been breathed on. They are are not new patterns as in new style neither changed but had minor alterations checked and refreshed...

So, the problems I have would likely still be there, because those same patterns to me simply aren't observed as being the same as those in the film.

*** But actually, the new jacket you've done for the customer (in goat(?)) really SCREAMS Nowak Raiders around the shoulders. It looks like no other Wested I have seen. Are you REALLY saying these things haven't been adapted? When people get this new style of jacket when you're ready, are you saying if they measure the shape and cut, it will be IDENTICAL to their other, same sized Wested Raiders?

PETER wrote:The COA remains valid as everything is based on the original pattern made by myself personally.

But if you lengthened it into trenchcoat length, by that rationale you could use that same argument. The reality is they've been changed TOO MUCH that it doesn't look the same.

THE REST OF MY RESPONSE IS NOW A FEW POSTS DOWN.

With all due respect, the issue with patterns would seem to go beyond "tweaking" minor details. While I understand how different sizes can affect the look of the jacket, it shouldn't have an affect on basic pocket size, yoke size, and collar construction relative to the jacket. I have seen people get a respectably accurate jacket but they have had to supply a laundry list of specs. I don't see why this is necessary if the original patterns are at hand

crismans wrote:I have seen people get a respectably accurate jacket but they have had to supply a laundry list of specs. I don't see why this is necessary if the original patterns are at hand

I think this is a fair question. It's understandable people might want small changes to make a jacket more durable or better fitting for them, but why do so many of the jackets seem to vary so much from the screen (and from jacket to jacket) when few or little changes are requested?

Ok, so picking up halfway into Peter's reply here:

PETER wrote:The original jackets made by me were in the NZ Lamb/sheep skins as supplied to me by Turn Leather they were not rough or shrunken hide. I had no part in the breaking down and distressing as been clearly documented. This was done on set. I supply the jacket in smooth leather so that the person wearing it can either distress it himself or keep it as it is. A lot of people buy the jacket for its looks as a smart jacket not to be film authentic.
What I am doing now as a special project is to recreate that on screen worn distressed look using washed veg tanned lamb. It will hopefully be identical to the on screen jacket Raiders even to put the rib marks in the same position on the jacket.
If I do supply it it will be very limited as it will be my personal production, but don't hold your breath. Peter

Before I respond to Peter, I'd like to note his remarks from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=36638&p=532412&hil ... ks#p532412

PETER wrote:LETS BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS. I MADE THE ORIGINAL RAIDERS JACKETS. I BOUGHT THE SKINS AS NEW ZEALAND LAMB IN CRUST FROM JIM HUME (FELLMONGERS) IN SCOTLAND. I SENT THE SKINS TO MR JEFF CLARK OF TURN LEATHERS TANNERY AT TODMORDEN IN YORKSHIRE. THEY CONTRACT TANNED THE SKIN TO MY SPECIFICATION WHICH WAS A WORN LOOK FINISH.
THE RIB MARKS ,TICK MARKS AND MACHINE SKINNING STRETCH MARKS ARE TYPICAL OF NEWZEALAND AND AUSTRALIAN SKINS AND WERE ALL PUT INTO THE JACKETS TO ADD CHARACTOR WHICH IS WHAT YOU SEE. IT WAS NOT SHRUNKEN LAMB. ...

...so then it went to and fro when there were admissions of texture, until you most recently said:

PETER wrote:At the same time I was experimenting with washed shrunken lamb, not like in C.K's TN jacket but proper stuff.

So first "Authentic lamb" was smooth, then TN came along, that was denied, then it was accepted, amongst debate over names like crispe, and after I raise my above questions it is now smooth again and only done with distressing? The publicity stills like the cobra shot look pretty shrunken to me. Could you please address these changes of heart/recollection on your account?

(I guess another factor was that issue of you presenting the "bellhop" jacket in shrunken-like material WAY back when - a story involving Lee Keppler if I recall? Can anyone fill in the story there?)

I take it then that you are acknowledging Nowak DID indeed have an authentic jacket that he copied, but that he TOTALLY got it wrong in terms of mistaking on-set distressing with a shrunken hide?

-Kurt.

I have been specifically warned not to comment on other vendors or their products so I cannot answer your post.
End of story.
Peter

I have no intention of entering a Peter V Nowak Gang situation and I cannot answer without referral.
So best I don't answer

Please answer why your jacket do not and have not been what they've been represented to be.

I though they were Indiana Jones jackets but maybe I was wrong, maybe they were from another film, sorry

It's not a Nowak gang thing from my perspective. I've had these questions for quite some time. I'm excited about the opportunity to finally have them answered!

Peter, I see no reason why you cannot answer the questions posted, even if it means you honestly have to refer to other jacket makers. As long as your reply is civil, factual and does not bait, bash, or slander any of the other vendors, that is acceptable. The only reason folks seem to be bringing up Nowak's jackets is because of the noticeable differences in his jackets versus yours and how they perceive what they see in the jackets they receive and how those jackets compare to what they see on screen. This will not be allowed to turn into a Nowak versus Wested debate, and if it does so, the posts and members will be dealt with accordingly. But I think the answers to questions posted regarding your change of patterns and such over the years are answers members want to hear directly from you, and don't necessarily have anything to any other jacket maker.

Moderator Edit: Please keep the comments in the appropriate manner which allowed this thread to exist in the first place.

Addition: Peter, I could have just as easily purchased a Todds or Magnoli, as I was doing when it became clear your jacket wasn't quite right. So what you're saying it, you are allowed to compare vendor offerings but we, the paying customers, cant!? It's a real shame you choose to act in the way you do. Of course it has nothing to do with the other vendors. Everything outlined comes down to you and your actions, and you are unable to answer to any criticism, feedback, review or analysis unless it's from your "gang" to put it your way. The only reason I went to another vendor was because of you.

I'm wearing my HH from you right now, and it's a good jacket, just not what I paid for. You could have simply come clean with your reasoning over the years, and I would have accepted that. Instead, you have now removed any ability for me to wear it with any pride whatsoever for what you did achieve on the Indy films you DID work on.

Okay, folks, I've already copied and cleaned out several posts in this thread which were inappropriate and off topic. Warnings have already been given in this thread to keep things between the tracks, and if they continue to go that way, this thread will be locked down. Peter is perfectly capable of answering these questions himself. No one needs to answer for him. Also, there is no reason why this should turn into a bash-fest on Peter, either. While the initial questions asked are pertinent and deserving of an answer, there is no need to lambast Peter because he chooses to answer or not. If he answers, he will answer in his own time. This thread has remained open ONLY for the sake of Peter being able to respond to these questions, not as a reason to hang the man. Anyone looking to form lynch mobs here will find themselves standing on the gallows, instead.

As an owner of a Wested I always asked myself these questions. But, although I know we may feel that Peter gave us a different jacket than the one he promised, I am beginning to think that, in many of us, somehow is growing a kind of rage against him that may be a little bit irrational. Please, don't misunderstand me: I too was starting to feel the same way...
We may better take a break. After all he is a very good jacket maker (we have to remember, at least, that this is what almost all of us thought about him just a year ago!) and the man who made the original Raiders Jacket. Peter has already been answered (properly or not) by the folks here when he criticised unjustly other vendors and their products, and he was also warned by moderators. There have been, too, plenty of different reviews about the quality of his products, so there is no point in returning to this fights.
This thread has nothing to do with those quarrels but with the jacket he made for ROTLA and the patterns he used, plus he has been openly asked with no other intentions. He has the right to answer or not and, depending on what he decides to do, each of us is also free to continue doing business with him or not.

He has the right to answer or not and, depending on what he decides to do, each of us is also free to continue doing business with him or not.

We know. This is one of the main reasons for Indygear to even exist....to ask for and receive clear and concise answers from vendors before an individual puts their hard earned cash on the line for one of the vendors products. That's what has been asked, and what is being discussed.

As has already stated by moderators and the webmaster, let's keep it to those points alone.

Regards! Michaelson

All right