The "Turn" - Is it a Raiders Standard?

Jonny Whip Crack · Post by **Jonny Whip Crack** » Wed May 13, 2009 12:20 am

Hi Everyone. I've read a few posts on the infamous "Turn" on the Raiders fedora.... and I must say, I'm not a fan. I've seen a few pics, and some look like the hat is completely on sideways!. Now I do own a Raiders AB that I got off ebay a year ago, and it has a slight turn, but it is less obvious. My question is, if I order a Raiders fedora from a vendor, does the "Turn" have to be requested, or is it part of the Raiders fedora. I've heard it mentioned on the SOC, the idol grab, the well of souls.....! Needless to say, I have an AB Raiders on order from Oct of 2007, and I'm praying it doesn't come with the "turn". I've not specified any scene look, but however a more "dressy" and "symetrical" looking Raiders. More or less, I want the tight front pinch, but in the MIDDLE. Fedora, I know you're a fan, but PLEASE, no turn.
Any other people who have "turned" against the "turn"?
Is there any way I could have used the word "turn" more in this posting? TURN, TURN, TURN....you're evil!

Just my 2 cents.

Jonny

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed May 13, 2009 1:05 am

I think most Venders would make the hat the way you want. You will have to let them know from the start or at least before they start to work on it. It's my opinion that any hat that isn't turned isn't a Raider hat because "the Raiders hat" was turned and part of what makes that hat special.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed May 13, 2009 1:53 am

I think the Kipu Falls hat, the one at the very beginning, before Indy goes into the temple is the only unturned hat in the film. I like the look, but THE Raiders hat is turned. I don't think a vendor would put the turn in unless you ask for it, though.

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed May 13, 2009 10:37 am

DR Ulloa wrote:I think the Kipu Falls hat, the one at the very beginning, before Indy goes into the temple is the only unturned hat in the film. I like the look, but THE Raiders hat is turned. I don't think a vendor would put the turn in unless you ask for it, though.

Dave

I would.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed May 13, 2009 10:43 am

Yeah, Fedora occasionally forgets and has done the 'turn' to my hats, though I'm not a fan of it myself.

I can always tell when he's done it, as when I put on any particular AB, the dents are off center to the way I wear my hats.

Regards!Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 13, 2009 11:00 am

Yep, I'm also one of the few who is not a huge fan of the turn on my hats. I prefer to put the character in them myself.

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Wed May 13, 2009 11:31 am

Now I'm more confused than EVER!

To future generations reading this post:
As I wrote this message on Wednesday, May 13th the avatars for BOTH Michaelson AND binkmeisterRick featured "them" both wearing (respectively) a hat and a fez which are BOTH TURNED.

HYPOCRISY!

(That's RIGHT, bink... I know a turned FEZ when I see one!)

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed May 13, 2009 11:56 am

Hold your horses there, Mitch. In my defense, that 'photo' is photoshopped, and not by my hand. I do NOT order them with the 'turn', and I've already stated, I had some that ARE turned, but were made that way by mistake. I never said I WON'T wear them...I said I wasn't a fan!

If you also draw a line from the middle of the dents down the center of the nose in the photo, you'll also discover that hat in my avatar is NOT turned, but the hat is just cocked to 'my' right..... so there!

As to bink's fez....I think he's wearing it upside down. That's a flower pot, isn't it?

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 13, 2009 12:06 pm

And if you were to see where the ribbon on the inside of the fez is, you, too, would know it is not turned. It's a case of letting it develop its own character.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed May 13, 2009 12:07 pm

Personally, I think the only 'character' involved in this fez business is the one wearing the hat in question.....

Regards! Michaelson

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed May 13, 2009 12:09 pm

Sallah is a character that wore a fez...

Dave

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 13, 2009 12:11 pm

Michaelson wrote:Personally, I think the only 'character' involved in this fez business is the one wearing the hat in question.....

Regards! Michaelson

I resemble that remark... HEY! I AM that remark!

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:37 pm

Michaelson, bink:
All I know is, you're both good sports.

Thanks for not turning on me!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:02 pm

Oh, you'll know if we turn on you, alright.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:54 pm

i've been putting the turn in most the hats that i build..........once its in there, i find myself continually playing with the brim and smushing my hat......to the point that it looks like i'm ignoring people during converstaions!!!!

that dang turn just brings out the worst of my OC complex. my latest hat is a non-turned waterfall raiders....i rarely play with it and i like the way the brim sits on my noggin.

i guess it's part of 'maturing' as a gearhead....at least for me.....to have a straight on hat.

....of course i'm not saying that i'll never build another turned hat

Indiana Venkman · Post by **Indiana Venkman** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:55 pm

Personally I love the look of the turn but don't have a hat with one. I tried in the gray wool felt hat I have however there is a plastic ring in the brim and it refuses to allow the brim to warp or droop in a way I like so I cannot put the turn in it. I've tried, it just doesn't keep. Of course once I get me as proper Raiders hat you better believe it will have the turn.

Mitch, you are one hilarious dude and a terrible punster. I thought I was the king of bad puns and word play, but you sir, crack me up all the time. Must be a maritime thing, I grew up in New Brunswick, by the way and developed my sense of humor there. It doesn't help that I got much of my sense of humor from Spider-man and Robin, if you want to get into bad punsters....

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Wed May 13, 2009 8:19 pm

The turn turns me off, because, as it turns out, it doesn't look good on me; so I've turned against it. Turned or unturned, though, the vendor still turns a profit, so...

What's in a turn? When it comes to hats, one good turn deserves a cover-- especially if there's a flock of terns over your head. In that case, a turn by any other term would smell as sweet. (somebody stop me).

Jack

VP · Post by VP » Thu May 14, 2009 1:05 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Yep, I'm also one of the few who is not a huge fan of the turn on my hats.

So you're a big fan but just not a huge one?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu May 14, 2009 1:08 pm

Can someone post an image of the non-turned hat in Raiders from the begining of the movie?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu May 14, 2009 1:39 pm

VP wrote:
binkmeisterRick wrote:Yep, I'm also one of the few who is not a huge fan of the turn on my hats.
So you're a big fan but just not a huge one?

Call me a medium fan. I think the turn looks fine on Ford, but for MY hats, I don't like the turn, unless it happens naturally over time from how I wear the hat. At that point, any turn would look natural yet be minor compared to the exaggerated angle I see on so many hats. The SoC hat is a great hat, but it's not for my head. I'd rather wear a hat that looks good on my head. Indy has his hats and I have mine. I'm fine with that.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » Thu May 14, 2009 6:11 pm

Mitch LaRue wrote:Michaelson, bink:
All I know is, you're both good sports.

Thanks for not turning on me!

Groans...

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu May 14, 2009 6:32 pm

JME2 wrote:
Mitch LaRue wrote:Michaelson, bink:
All I know is, you're both good sports.

Thanks for not turning on me!

Groans...

Let's be groan-ups about this...

Jack

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » Thu May 14, 2009 11:39 pm

eazybox wrote:
JME2 wrote:
Mitch LaRue wrote:Michaelson, bink:
All I know is, you're both good sports.

Thanks for not turning on me!

Groans...
Let's be groan-ups about this...

Jack

...

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response...

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu May 14, 2009 11:57 pm

It's all in good pun.

Jack

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:17 am

eazybox wrote:It's all in good pun.

Jack

Aye, that it is,

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:20 am

Like Indiana G said, the turn sometimes requires manual brim adjusting, and Ford is seen doing this in some "making of" scenes. It's not much fun, unless you like to pretend you are Ford between shots. ........ But, turning also takes taper out of the sides of a hat crown, which is important if you want a Raiders look. However, turning also adds taper to the front and back of your crown, which is why I like a block with no front and back taper to begin with.

Indycrazy5187 · Post by **Indycrazy5187** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:19 am

sorry...at first the turn was okay with me...then when I actually saw it in person on my hat I was like ugh...nasty.

SpeedRcrX · Post by **SpeedRcrX** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:05 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:
Call me a medium fan. I think the turn looks fine on Ford, but for MY hats, I don't like the turn, unless it happens naturally over time from how I wear the hat. At that point, any turn would look natural yet be minor compared to the exaggerated angle I see on so many hats. The SoC hat is a great hat, but it's not for my head. I'd rather wear a hat that looks good on my head. Indy has his hats and I have mine. I'm fine with that.

Amen to that

Like you I prefer to own a hat that suit me. So when I ordered a Penman hat I asked John his opinions and expertise to get an Indy hat that go with my face (apparently the LC would be best and I agree with him).
I'll post some photos when I'll get the hat !

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:57 am

I don't understand why you would love the Raiders hat but hate the turn. The turn is a big part of the raiders hat.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:17 am

In my case, I love the Raiders hat, but I don't like the turn on my hats. I think it looks good on Ford, but I prefer to buy a hat that looks good on my head. I once experimented with trying a SoC bash and it looked silly on me. A minor turn looks alright, but those are hats I've had for ages that have naturally developed such a characteristic because of how long I've worn that hat and how it reacts to my head shape. When I originally got them, they were non-turned hats.

My personal opinion is that many people go overboard on the turn. I laugh at the pictures where gearheads have humorously turned their hats a full 90 degrees on their heads because some of the turned hats I've seen look just as ridiculous to my eyes. I think the brim is one of the areas of the hat that can get too exaggerated. Did it look good on Indy? Sure it did, but I'm not Indy and few of us have his head shape. Sure, the turn is a big part of the Raiders hat, but not ALL of the Raiders hats. People forget that and tend to favor the SoC and the Raven Bar hats and don't see the many variances beyond those two scenes. I am of the small minority of hat wearers who prefer the hat with little or no turn. I like the hat in the idol temple and in the Well of Souls. In fact, my first AB was a hybrid of those two bashes. So that's how I can love the Raiders hat and hate the turn. It is possible.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:48 am

BendingOak wrote:Can someone post an image of the non-turned hat in Raiders from the begining of the movie?

Anyone?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:40 am

BendingOak wrote:
BendingOak wrote:Can someone post an image of the non-turned hat in Raiders from the begining of the movie?

Anyone?

You mean that one?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:22 pm

Yes, thats it. It's a great hat but it's not in the movie that long. I think ( like most ) of the other hats used in the movie ( 95% of the time) is a turned hat and is what people think of when they think Raiders hat. The big part that adds character to a hat is that turn. It changes more than just the brim.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:33 pm

I think this hat only appears in this scene, the bash differs greatly to the rest of the movie plus like you said, not turned. this might have been a special hat, that needed to get wet?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:37 pm

It's beauuuuuutiful!!!!

Yes, I know it's not in the movie that long and that the SoC hat seems to be the most popular style, but because it is in the movie unturned, it's still SA.

This is just like all the jacket debates.

So you really can say a Raiders hat is SA with or without the turn. Again, I have nothing against those who prefer the turn in their hats. But I don't wear Indy hats, I wear binkmeister hats. I don't let a hat wear me, I wear the hat.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:40 pm

I can almost hear Joe Swanson (Family Guy) say that last sentence you wrote Bink !

Followed by an OH YEAH !!!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:43 pm

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:50 pm

I like the unturned look as well. In fact, I love love it! I agree it doesn't look right on everyone. The only turned hat I have is my Penman and really its becuase the thing is so #### floppy that the brim looks just perfect. I don't really need to fiddle with it all the time. It just distorts the way its supposed to.

Dave

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:52 pm

the waterfall hat in the pic above is as much of a raiders hat as any other hat in the movie imo. do we see the waterfall hat much in the movie? no. but that's one of the most popular pictures from raiders........i bet alot more of the earth's populace have seen this picture as compared to the demographic that knows the nuances of the turned hat

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri May 15, 2009 1:10 pm

The waterfall hat happens to be my favorite. I think perhaps we are not such a tiny minority, but those who favor the turn are simply more outspoken.

I agree with Bink; the turn looks good on Ford. I'm not Ford. I'm me. So, I prefer to wear a hat that looks good on me. As a collector, I might buy a Raiders hat with the turn as a display piece, but not as part of my personal wardrobe.

Jack

Barcelona Jones · Post by **Barcelona Jones** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:31 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:A minor turn looks alright, but those are hats I've had for ages that have naturally developed such a characteristic because of how long I've worn that hat and how it reacts to my head shape. When I originally got them, they were non-turned hats.

I wonder, how did you obtain a turned hat that way, as you describe, by just wearing it and the hat adapting to your head?

I mean, a Indy hat with the turn needs a) to put the hat off center b) to purposely crease the hat in relation to the new medial line of the hat, which corresponds to the head's medial line.

I have seen some vintage hats with some turn onto them (and I have one or two myself) - this, I guess, happened when the hat was first creased by the owner or the shop salesman (in past times, hats were manufactured open crowned - not creased from factory, as is usually the case today), be it by carelessness or deliberately (I imagine it is conceivable some people wanted something "different").

If you put on your head a normally-creased hat on your head, and always put it off center by whatever reason, it will show the brim curl effect, but the crown crease orientation will be unaffected. Even if you put it on and take it by pinching the crown, it will be unaffected because you pinch the already existing crease - you do not press in another place to create a new one.

Some uneveness and/or assimetry, will eventually appear in the crown crease - it may well exist from the beginning if the hat is creased by hand. And in the brim too, because of handling.

But I do not see how a"complete" turn effect could appear from a non-turned hat, just by normal handling and wearing. Could you please explain?

(This is out of curiosity).

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:51 pm

If a person has a hat slightly big and creases a hat ( off center without knowing it) then when the sweatband shrink a little then the turn would show up.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:52 pm

Its happened to me.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:38 pm

I have a few hats that naturally have a lot of character to them in that they can change personalities just by how I pick them up. The felt is responsive enough that simply by touching it you can affect the bash. Also, if the hat is more of a round oval on me, it can change a little just by how I put it on my head. What's more, if you have a hat you wear often, it will slowly change the more you pick it up, depending how you pick up the hat. I adjust it by the crown often, so that affects things slightly over time, too. Again, I never intentionally put a turn in any of my hats, but over time some develop a slight turn to them. The point is, I allow the physics of wearing the hat make it happen naturally as opposed to artificially creasing it that way right out of the box.

Here are a couple of examples. This is a vintage hat which was not turned. However, over time it's developed a little bit of a subtle turn because it's a floppy and reactive felt:

This hat has such thin felt and the sweatband is so malleable that it NEVER looks the same way twice!

Neither of these hats have a premeditated turn.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:54 pm

I don't see either hat as turned at all. I think we are talking about two different effects.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sat May 16, 2009 2:47 am

Thats not really an accurate depiction, Rick. You have the hat cocked to one side in the first pic and on straight in the second. I think what has happened is tha that hat is either closer to a round oval or has shrunk a bit with time. A tight fitting hat will have the brim swoop that way. Its been theorized that the turn in Raiders wasn't as dramatic as we think and that most of the brim swoop is due to Ford wearing a regualr oval though he should have been wearing a long oval. The same effect can be had by wearing a round oval when you should wear a regular oval. The Raiders hat was also very tight. Notice how Ford has to tug on his hat in the scene where we see Sallah and his diggers searching for the entrance of the Well of Souls, with the sunest behind them. I think what we are seeing in your hat, Rick is either a slight bit of shrinking or the hat being closer to a round oval. Maybe even a combination of both. The hat is definately not turned, though.

Dave

p.s. I really like that hat. I think it looks great. Who made it?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat May 16, 2009 10:27 am

I just grabbed a couple of pics I had handy. It is hard to tell in the first one because of the angle of it on my head. (Though it's a good example of me wearing hats which develop their own character.) I'm referring to how the brim reacts as well as how asymmetrical the front dents and crease are. I guess what I'm thinking of and what you guys are thinking of may be two different things. If so, then I guess it just reiterates that I do not care for the turn that you guys do. In that case, carry on without me. You like the turn, I do not. End of story.

Dave, which hat are you referring to? The top one is from a local and obsolete hatter, Leo Satz and Sons. It's a beautiful blue grey with a welted edge and a 2 inch ribbon. I reblocked it and made it a diamond bash. The second hat is a vintage Knox Vagabond I got off eBay for five bucks a few years ago. It was in beat up shape and I got it to experiment on. I ended up flipping the hat inside out because it was mottled and faded inconsistently on the outside. I change the ribbon on this one frequently. Even though it's beat up, it's one of my favorite felts of any of my hats. It's extremely thin and lightweight. If any of the hatters on this board offered a felt like this, they'd have another customer.

Heck, I think Optimo's featherweight is the closest I've seen to this. Anyway, that's another topic altogether...

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sat May 16, 2009 2:01 pm

I was referring to the second one, though I do like the first one. I can't believe you won that hat for $5! Great find. I can't find any vintage hats in my size and when I do they are priced so high that I'd rather get a custom job from one of our great hatters here and spend less.

Dave

Barcelona Jones · Post by **Barcelona Jones** » Sat May 16, 2009 2:47 pm

I do not mind (of course!) if you like the turn or not, this is a question of taste; but I, like BendingOak, think we are talking of different things.

Yes, a hat will may well acquire character over time, because of handling - and I like this better than a pristine factory-produced hat with a moulded in crease, too; assimetrical pinch, dents, and brim, whatever, some of all of this can occur. Those vintage hats I own that came with a good crease I usually keep as they are, precisely because of this (normally, I only recrease those that come with a nondescript shape, and even then, if the "memory" of the felt reactivates the original crease, I may well keep it). So we are in the same tune here.

But I do not think "the turn", as understood by the Indy hat fans, will develop because of just normal use and handling; and I fail to see the turn in your hats. Character, yes. "The turn", no. And this is perfectly fine.

Dr. Henricus23 · Post by **Dr. Henricus23** » Sun May 17, 2009 7:43 am

I love the 'Raiders' turn-I just never quite get the look when shaping my hats.....

When I order my AB I think I will doubly emphasize this point with Mr. Delk