Club Obi Wan

First off, this is not related to Indy at all so if you need to move it Lao Che's mods, feel free.

I'm thinking about buying a new gun this summer since I'll be working and will have some extra money. This will actually be the first gun that I have purchased (I'm 19). (On a side note, this will by no means be the first gun that I've ever handled; I've been raised around guns. Anyway....)

I'm trying to decide between an AK and a Mossberg 500 (12 gauge, with stock and pistol grip kit included). http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg ... /50411.jpg
On the one hand, the Mossberg would be a little cheaper, and the ammo would be a heck of a lot cheaper. And I would be able to shoot it at my house, in the woods (we're out of the city limits).
On the other hand, I generally like rifles more, especially AKs. And I would especially like to get one before certain people make it difficult and/or illegal to buy assult type weapons. The downsides though, are the more expensive ammo, and the fact that I couldn't shoot it at my house (we don't have any hill/dirt bank/etc. to shoot into), so I would have to pay to go to the local range.

Ideally I'd like to have enough extra money at the end of the summer so that I can get both. However, I may only have enough to get one, so I'd like to hear some input from some of the seasoned gun enthusiasts on COW.

Thanks guys,
-Bogart

The decision seems to henge on what you want the weapon for? Home defence? Shot gun.

The AK-47 is a terrible rifle, however it is a great sub machine gun. I appreciate the penetration power of its sizable round. Its ease of disassemble and cleaning. Its ruggedness.
Its drawbacks are its huge mag (ya can't get low enough to the ground with it!) and its accuracy is terrible. At least that's my experience with Russian, Chinese and Egyptian Ak's.

Mike

If those are your two choices, a few thoughts:

It all depends on what activities you anticipate. The pistol-grip Mossy isn't particularly well-suited to clays, critters, or backyard plinking. Pretty handy for home self-defense, however.

The WASR AKs aren't well-suited to most hunting applications or competition shooting, but are good for plinking and home self-defense.

If the intent is home defense, bear in mind that the WASR's 7.62x39 round will go through interior and exterior walls without much trouble. If you're in an apartment, don't even think about it. 12ga loads vary, also, but are less of a penetration issue.

A WASR-10 is not a "hi-cap"--just sayin'. Folks I know with WASRs haven't been particularly impressed with their reliability and feeding, which is ironic, considering how rock-solid the original design is. If you can legally purchase one one in your state, go with one of the AK semi-auto clones that take the standard double-stack magazines. Or perhaps an SKS, if you are interested in the x39 round.

Thanks for the input guys. And I probably should have put my intended use. Basically, I'll just be using it for plinking, target practice, etc. Not necessarily for home defense and not for hunting (since I don't hunt).

My dad has two AKs. A WASR-3 (.223 model) and a WASR-10 (regular 7.62x39 model). So I have a fairly good knowledge of these rifles. My biggest pros for the gun are the ease of disassembly, as alphared mentioned, and also its ruggedness. Plus I just like AKs. So far we haven't experienced much trouble with my dad's two AKs. (The .223 only feeds right with XM 193 ammo, but the WASR-10 works fine.) So I'm not TOO worried about the reliability.

hocfuture, I wasn't aware that a WASR-10 wasn't a hi-cap. I think I saw that on ak-47.net. I'm not saying that I don't believe you, I was just misinformed. I thought a "hi-cap" was just one that accepted 30 round (plus) magazines.... If a WASR-10 isn't a hi-cap then what is it? Cause the 2 that I've used both have 30 round double stack mags.

Again, thanks for the help guys,
-Bogart

I guess I am using a different terminology. "Hi-Cap" is a marketing/political term from the 1994 AW Ban, meaning "anything greater than 10 rounds." However, normal magazine capacity for AK-styled firearms is 30 (or 20, for some "tanker" mags) so "standard" capacity is a more accurate term for those magazines.

A firearm that can accept a detachable magazine is not "high-cap" or "low-cap" in and of itself.

But I'm a hopeless semantic...

Ok, thanks for clearing that up hocfuture. I was a little confused for a second.

Basically my delima is that I would probably get more use out of the shotgun, since I would be able to shoot it more often. (all I would have to do is walk about 100 feet out the back door of my house) However, I would prefer an AK just because I like them (and assault rifles in general) more, but I probably wouldn't get to shoot it as often. But, then again, if I wait too long I might not be able to buy one anymore.

I voted for the 500 earlier today, however, I have a 590 and really enjoy it a lot. Mine has the speed-feed stock, which is handy.

It holds 8+1 and two on each side of the stock. I installed the included heatshield and it even has <gasp> BAYONET LUGS! And it has the parkerized finish. It's just a great little shotgun. It's fun to go shoot clays with it with my friends, even if he flew a clay about 3 feet in front of my head.

The MAK-90's I've seen are sloppily-made and I don't really care for them. I used to have an SKS and it was the same...but was fun to shoot still.

Check out the 590 if you get a chance. They make a brushed nickle finish 500 that's nice too.

Mossberg all the way. FAR more practical, and the ability to customize your loads makes it a winner hands down.

Plus, there's a TON of available options and accessories to customize it to your heart's content.

And, if I may, it doesn't have quite the negative stigma attached to it that the AK does...Not that that really affects my choices, as it were....

Or, you can pick up an Indy film shotgun--some of the disguised Russians in KOTCS are carrying Model 1897 trench guns.

I'm with ya, WhiteBull--gotta love a 12ga with a bayonet lug!

And, if I may, it doesn't have quite the negative stigma attached to it that the AK does...Not that that really affects my choices, as it were....

Not to sound like an idiot or something, but the "stigma" really doesn't bother me at all. I like what I like.

And I do have to agree with you, the 500 is much more practical. I guess my biggest reason for wanting an AK now is that I'm a bit concerned about how much longer we will be able to buy these types of firearms.

Or, you can pick up an Indy film shotgun--some of the disguised Russians in KOTCS are carrying Model 1897 trench guns.

Where could I get one of these?! (More importanly, how much would one be? )

Thanks,
-Bogart

IndianaBogart wrote: I guess my biggest reason for wanting an AK now is that I'm a bit concerned about how much longer we will be able to buy these types of firearms.
-Bogart

Not to be to "political" here but ... just because you buy a weapon that is legal today does not mean that tomorrow you won't be a felon.

alphared6 wrote:

IndianaBogart wrote: I guess my biggest reason for wanting an AK now is that I'm a bit concerned about how much longer we will be able to buy these types of firearms.
-Bogart

Not to be to "political" here but ... just because you buy a weapon that is legal today does not mean that tomorrow you won't be a felon.

(Hypothetically) Would having bought it before such a law (such as the expired Brady Bill) went into effect, make it illegal after the law would be passed? I was under the assumption that if you have it before such a law is passed then they can't take it, etc.

You are correct. However there is, at this time, little to stop "them" from passing a law that makes the possession/ownership of any "mean" or offensive looking weapon illegal. Now there are those among us that will say the idea is ridiculous. Last week I would have said that the idea of the President of the United States having the head of a private industry fired was equally ridiculous!

Nuf said ... this is going to spiral into a political discussion, and we don't want that ... do we?

Nope.

yep, we probably better quit while we're ahead.

BTW, thanks for all the input guys.

-Bogart

Get an AK while you can. Go Polish or Yugo, try to get a milled receiver version if you can, it's much better than the stamped receivers. The Polish AK has some beautiful furniture on it, if you get the dark wood. The Yugo has a cool grenade launcher site that folds up if you need it (everyone needs a grenade launcer )

The 500 will be easier to get later-- Personally I'd go with a Remington or Winchester equivalent, but that's just me

TR

IndianaBogart wrote:

And, if I may, it doesn't have quite the negative stigma attached to it that the AK does...Not that that really affects my choices, as it were....

Not to sound like an idiot or something, but the "stigma" really doesn't bother me at all. I like what I like.

And I do have to agree with you, the 500 is much more practical. I guess my biggest reason for wanting an AK now is that I'm a bit concerned about how much longer we will be able to buy these types of firearms.

Or, you can pick up an Indy film shotgun--some of the disguised Russians in KOTCS are carrying Model 1897 trench guns.

Where could I get one of these?! (More importanly, how much would one be? )

Thanks,
-Bogart

IAR has been importing copies of the 1897 for a while now. Norinco makes one and I think there are a few others. The original Winchesters are still around as well. Very popular with the Cowboy Action Shooting crowd. Should be available for only a few (3-5) hundred. Check the online gun auction sites and talk to a local retailer for comparison.

Personally, I 'd get the gun you can shoot more often. BA/UU/R Buy ammo, use up, repeat.

There's growing evidence that we aren't at as much risk with the current Congress as we feared. Prices for "at risk" guns have gotten to stupid levels, you might give things a chance to settle down. Any controls won't take place overnight.

Get an AK while you can.....The 500 will be easier to get later

That's my thought as well, however, as carebear mentioned, I would be able to shoot the 500 more often.

Also, carebear, I when I started looking at the 1897s I came across the 1912s, which I personally like more; especially since they were used in The Untouchables.

Untouchables - great movie. I'm not sure what availability of AK's will be like in the future. Prices on complete rifles are pretty nuts most places nowadays, and the parts kits with original barrels are getting pricier and harder to find. I'll echo Texas Raider and say pick up an AK. The scatter-guns will still be there waiting - and yeah, those 1912's are pretty cool-lookin'.

alphared6 wrote:You are correct. However there is, at this time, little to stop "them" from passing a law that makes the possession/ownership of any "mean" or offensive looking weapon illegal. Now there are those among us that will say the idea is ridiculous. Last week I would have said that the idea of the President of the United States having the head of a private industry fired was equally ridiculous!

Nuf said ... this is going to spiral into a political discussion, and we don't want that ... do we?

That's right! Check this out.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xp ... ab=summary

It's the first bill introduced in the house that mandates licensing for all firearms owners.

-You will have to carry a photo ID firearms license.
-A training class is required to be licensed.
-Disclosure of your storage method is required for license.
-A thumb print is required for license.
-Every sale recorded by the federal government.
-If you move, and don't tell the Attorney General within 60 days, you are a criminal.
-If a firearm is stolen and you don't report it, you are a criminal.
-There will be no grandfathered firearms.
-If you do not obtain a license and report every firearm you currently own, you are a criminal.
-There will be a license fee and a fee for the "services" provided at purchase time.
-Licenses must be renewed every 5 years.`

OK Nuff said by me!!

Bond, thanks for bringing that up. I was already aware of it, but those who aren't need to be aware of this.

So, with this in mind, what would you recommend, Bond?

I recommend we don't say any more on this thread as we don't want to get Booted! Let everyone read for themselves what's going on and if anyone has questions on what it all means regarding our constitutional rights just PM any of us if you would like more info or clarification.

Also I would like to ask the Administrators and Moderators if there would be some way to start a thread or create a special section where political discussion on the 2nd amendment would be allowed? I think there are many of us here that would enjoy a place for this type of discussion and there are many here that would benefit from reading and contributing to such a discussion. Please let us know.

Thanks!

Also I would like to ask the Administrators and Moderators if there would be some way to start a thread or create a special section where political discussion on the 2nd amendment would be allowed? I think there are many of us here that would enjoy a place for this type of discussion and there are many here that would benefit from reading and contributing to such a discussion. Please let us know.

I'll second that motion.

-Bogart

I can think of 2 REALLY good reasons NOT to:

1) TOO POLITICAL! There's places for discussing those issues, and the rules say not here.
2) Friend Loss. These discussions break up friends, family and lead to disagreements that rival the First World War. I'm sure I don't want to lose anybody because somebody shattered their views with either facts or propaganda.

We're all here to have fun. Let's keep it that way. Before the Admins and Mods start using Mickelson's Plymouth to run us down!

Best advice- Just grab the AK now, like I said, while the getting is good.

A mossberg or similar is only about $300.00, so you can save up quickly and get one of those too, but get the "most likely to be banned sooner" weapon right now, just so you'll have it. If you wait too long, trust me, you'll kick yerself in the arse for not getting it while you could.

TR

My pair of leeetle friends



TR

Texas Raider wrote:Best advice- Just grab the AK now, like I said, while the getting is good.

A mossberg or similar is only about $300.00, so you can save up quickly and get one of those too, but get the "most likely to be banned sooner" weapon right now, just so you'll have it. If you wait too long, trust me, you'll kick yerself in the arse for not getting it while you could.

TR

TR, that's probably what I'm gonna do. While neither one is that expensive, the AK will cost more and the clock is ticking on it, so I think I'll go with that one first.

Thanks for all your help guys. I'll try to remember to post picks this summer when I get something....that is if I don't act impulsively and get it before then.

-Bogart

BTW, TR, I like your friends.

IndianaBogart wrote:BTW, TR, I like your friends.

Thanks! That's Mister Winchester and Mister Remington I had a SPAS 12 that I had for close to 20 years, sold it last year and bought these two sweeties with $$$ left over for more

TR

Ok, well like someone said before, try and get a milled receiver if you can afford it. Much better quailty than stamped.

I used to have a Belgian RPK .308 that was a lot of fun too. Might check into that one...they are nice, but I haven't kept up with prices these days. I had it in the mid 90's...

If you wanna get an AK style assault rifle get a Sako M92 (production halted in the mid-90s).

Here is my AK (I've since sold it) It was a beauty! Polish-



TR

Dang TR, that AK was a beauty. The wood looked very nice and I really like the underfolding stock.

If I may, why did you decide to sell it?

-Bogart

I just have too many guns! I've collected pretty much my whole life, so now I'm basically standardizing, going with less expensive calibers and fewer guns.(not that 7.62 isn't cheap, it's some of the cheapest) but I've kind of grown tired of AK's, they get too hot when shooting them and they are just too heavy. I still have several guns, but decided not to have as many assault style rifles or handguns,,,just narrowed it to a few favs. I'm more of a handgun man anyhoo. But really, when the @#$% hits the fan, you'll only be able to carry one anyhoo .
It's like any other material object, I try to not let them get hold of me. I believe it was Hemingway that said "If I can give it away, I own it. If I can't, it owns me" - that's my approach about these things. (not to get too deep about it)

I've got it down to 9mm,.40,45,357 mag,12 gauge,.223, 30 carbine,45/454. I've got a 10mm and .357 sig that are my odd-birds, but I really like those calibers. I do have my 10mm for sale, for the right price, but I'm happy to keep it as well.

So there you have it,,,sorry for the long explanation

I did shoot some video, Indy-style, with my AK before I sold it, I just need to edit it together (huge procrastinator!) one of these days.

TR

Gotcha TR. Sounds like a nice collection.

I've decided to go with the AK....first. There's a gun show coming up on April 18 and 19 (at Metrolina Expo in Charlotte, for those of you from NC), and I think I'm gonna try to pick one up there. Then over the summer I think I'm gonna get the Mossberg 500. I figure as long as I'm saving more than I'm spending this summer, what the heck? Get 'em while the getting is good.

-Bogart

Bogart:
Sounds like a plan!!

TR:
Yeah, I know what you mean about too many guns. I've done tha same thing trying to keep it down to just a few different calibers. All my Cowboy Action shooting gear is in 38 speacial/357 mag. Easy and inexpensive to shoot. Shotguns are all 12 ga. Home defense is .45acp. Back in Hawaii it's mostly 12 ga. and 9mm for home defense. Also have a few .223 rifles back there and my vintage .22 topbreak revolver collection. Plus a 30.06 and a .243 hunting rifles. I do have a few .380s like my PPK. and a few vintage .38 S&W topbreak revolvers for the Cowboy Action side matches. And then there's the vintage 38-55 rifles again for the Cowboy Action side matches. Wow, that's still a lot of different calibers when you really look at it all!! Good thing I have reloading gear for all of them!!

PS: I almost forgot the .455 Webley for my Webley WG!!!

I'd say go for the shotgun first. AK prices and availability are off the charts right now, and the ammo is nearly unobtainable. The shotgun is much more versatile for the intended purpose because of the very wide variety of 12 ga ammo. Today's Mossberg also has a 3" chamber for magnum loads. At home defense ranges of less than 25 yards, almost any 12 ga load is lethal to an unarmored or lightly-clad intruder, including low-brass birdshot. It's still an ounce of lead traveling at over 1000'/sec, and even in the Mossberg's short cylinder bore, there is very little dispersion at 25', so the shot is still acting as a solid body. With 3" magnum shells, particularly Remington 'Hevi-Shot' waterfowl loads, the Mossberg is devastating. And, you still have a plethora of buckshot and slugs to tempt you. For home defense, the .45 pistol and 12 ga auto shotgun are my go-tos.
Don't pay $800 for a hastily-assembled AK with a USA receiver and many parts, that you can't get ammo for. Play the waiting game on the AK.

Hey Bogie,If you're thinking the Mossberg 500, You may also consider the mil-spec 590. That's what I got many years ago. I think they're still available?
http://dynamicarmament.com/items/long-g ... detail.htm

That's alot of firepower!

191145:
Where we are in NC, we (my dad and I) haven't had a problem getting a hold of 7.62x39mm ammo, and it's not too expensive....yet. It's still cheaper than .223/5.56mm. So I'm not too concerned about that. (But it is definitely more expensive than shotgun shells) And I definitely wouldn't spend $800 on an AK. I've been looking around at a few gun shops and have seen some around $500 and if I can find one for cheaper than that at the gun show I think I'm gonna try to get one. But don't worry, I would never spend that much ($800) on one.

But still, thank you for the input. I really appreciate the input from all of you guys.

Raider 57:
I have looked at the 590s. I'm still leaning towards the 500 though b/c it's a little bit smaller/compact, especially if I attach the pistol grip (which I probably wouldn't do very often).

Again, thank you guys for the input. It's greatly appreciated.

-Bogart

Speaking of shotguns, I just got my High Standard Police Riot 18-7 12 ga. back from the gunsmith. Had the stock chopped down to a very comfortable 13" length of pull for me. They mounted a great new decelerator pad.

This thing is classic 1960's police issue. It's smooth as silk!! Hold the gun vertical and press the slide release button and the slide will drop to chamber a round just by the force of gravity itself! My Mossy 500 is nowhere as smooth as this guy!!

18" barrel, 6 + 1 rounds, light weight and smooth as silk!! Can't ask for much more!

I used to have one of those 590's. It's a great gun but a lot beefier than the 500. Adds quite a bit of extra weight also. That's why I went back to a 500. But my new favorite will definitely be this High Standard. It's really SWEET!!!

Bond......that thing is AWESOME.

-Bogart

Mossberg 500's have a very close place in my heart. They were the guns I was brought up on. You can abuse those things and it doesn't matter. I can't remember how many times as a young teen I dropped mine in the swamp while wood duck hunting in eastern NC, only to bring it home, take it apart, spray it down with the water hose and then hit it with a little WD-40. That thing kept on ticking!! And as far as home defense goes, my friends have a little saying, if there is an intruder in your house there can be no more unnerving a sound to that person as the shick-click sound made when loading a pump shotgun!

Thanks for the input hollowpond. I've heard several people comment on the 500's durability and from the sounds of it, the Mossberg 500s are to shotguns what Glocks are to pistols: nearly indestructable. I've decided that I'm (most likely) gonna get both, but I think I'm gonna get the Mossberg second.

Thanks guys,

Mossberg. 18 inch barrel. Good for close quarters. Or the AR-15. Pre-ban, if you can get one. The Ak is great, imho, a true workhorse. And they look cool. But I was trained on the M-16 and even, back then, before the reinforced barrel, and the outstanding shot of 3 - once the kinks were worked out - the M-16 proved itself. But, remember, everyone has their favorites. What do you really like? Or why not both?

Thanks for all of the replies, advice, input, etc.

I just got back from the gun show a little while ago, and I came back with the Mossberg 500 Persuader. I just made a decision on the spot. I was looking for an AK initially, but after not seeing too many that jumped out at me or ones that were way out of my (current) price-range I decided to just get the Mossberg for the time being. I came home and shot it some with the stock, and then put on the pistol grip. The pistol grip seems like it will be great for home defense, but I like the stock more for just plinking cause I can actually aim the thing. Anyway, since the summer's almost here I'll be able to work and will hopefully be able to get an AK before too long.

Again, thank you guys for all you advice and input.

AK all the way.
More practical fighting gun, and more likely to be made illegal by O.

FerFAL

Personally, I would pick up the Ak only if it were a Russian Saiga, their prices are going up but they are still a good value for the quality you get, I picked one up one new almost a couple years ago for $280. However, you're probably looking at more around $350 minimum these days. The Romanian models are supposed to be lower quality. As has been stated the 7.62x39 round and the ak-47 don't make for a good long range rifle although the round is good for mid-sized game at a few hundred feet. Ammo prices for that round have gone up due to the war in Iraq, but comparatively speaking it is still very cheap compared to normal hunting rounds. You might consider a Mosin Nagant, those are accurate rifles and they are cheaper than Ak's plus their 7.62x54R round is bigger than that of the Ak. The Mosin 91/30 is a good inexpensive rifle that you can successfully hunt game with, especially if you mount a scope to one. All of the surplus rifles are getting tougher to find and prices are up, but you may still be able to pick up a Mosin for around a $100. I got mine for around $89 bucks a while ago. They house five rounds in the chamber and are a bolt action rifle. Of course the shotgun is a good home defense firearm and rifle to hunt birds with, in your situation, you may want to purchase one if you don't have a good place to use the Ak or rifles in general. I suggest a shotgun that will house several rounds in the chamber. Mossberg is a good value and probably in your price range, get a semi-auto Benelli if you want to lay out the cash.

Too illustrate the Mosin's potential here's a quick vid of a guy knocking off a wild boar at 350 yards with a Mosin using only iron sights. I'm sure that shot would be tough to reproduce, but it can be a very accurate rifle if the rifling is good, probably only exceeded by the more expensive Swedish K-31 or the U.S. M44, and maybe a few other choices such as the Finnish M39, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCSDWM0J-L8

Thanks again guys for the help. I did get the Mossberg today at a gun show in Charlotte for $320. And I am still planning on getting an AK, probably later this summer. I really like AKs and have shot them a good bit, but I'm just gonna wait until the summer when funds are a bit better.

IndianaBogart wrote:Thanks again guys for the help. I did get the Mossberg today at a gun show in Charlotte for $320. And I am still planning on getting an AK, probably later this summer. I really like AKs and have shot them a good bit, but I'm just gonna wait until the summer when funds are a bit better.

Did I read correctly above you have a pistol-grip only (PGO) stock for it?

I'd recommend trying that on some actual targets at "home defense" ranges prior to planning on actually using it for that purpose. At close range (<7 yds) there is no effective "spread" of pellets from a shotgun, you have to be aiming just as precisely to hit as you would with a rifle or handgun.

Long guns, especially shotguns, have shoulder stocks for a reason. The gun is pointed (aimed) by looking down the barrel, it needs to be shouldered to do that efficiently, and having a stock placed firmly against your shoulder makes operating the action and making follow-up shots much easier. Not to mention the physical discomfort of firing a PGO from anything below eye level, doing so cunningly places your wrist and forearm in exactly the worst postion for absorbing recoil, everything is strained and out of alignment.

The only real-world use for a PGO on a shotgun in my formal training experience is for shooting hinges and locks on a dynamic entry, not actual combat, for that you want a shoulder stock every time.