Club Obi Wan

I know this has been discussed on a few various threads, but I think it really deserves its own thread. It is a monumental topic!!! I mean, it is almost like finding the Holy Grail.

After pondering what D.L. said in that interview that we have talked about, it suddenly occurred to me that no one, outside of the costume designer for ROTLA, has ever owned, bought from HJ, a real deal Raiders fedora.

We bought and we bought from HJ, hoping to get the elusive Raiders fedora from them, while never knowing that the Raiders fedora was a custom made hat, made to D.L.'s specs, and according to her, HJ did not even offer this hat, at the time.

Then we have folks that buy the Christy, or the HJ, with the conviction that they are indeed getting a Raiders fedora, when they are actually getting another totally different hat! Any resemblence thereof is the same resemblence that one would get from a variety of different brands, that had a similiar but not totally accurate block shape. But, the magical name of HJ on the sweat, somehow compels them to think, that at least this is what Indy wore. That was his brand. Yes, and no. We are comparing apples to oranges really. Consider this.

The Raiders fedora we know today was a custom made, or bespoke fedora, made to D.L.'s specs, or her vision of what she wanted to put on Harrison, and no doubt, she put alot of thought into it. At the time, this Raiders fedora did not exist, from HJ. She took a broad brimmed Aussie hat, with the upturned brim, and use this as a piece of clay to arrive at what she wanted.

There were no Poets sitting on the shelf at HJ, and she was probably not even aware that the Poet existed, at one time in HJs history. She designed this hat!!! It is hers. And, it was NOT the Poet. To be a Poet would be a huge coincidence, and the odds are against it. Now, no doubt Swales gave them the Poet when hats for the next film were requested, and we can tell from the bows and the sweat stitching at the brim break that these were pure factory hats, made by whomever they were using at the time. But they changed factories several times in the last 12 years. So even what they sell today is not what they sold to the folks for the TOD and TLC films.

Which brings me to a very important point. Once she got her order in of the Raiders fedora, HJ no longer sold this particular hat. Why? Because it was a custom made hat! And HJ sells factory hats. The TOD and TLC hat were both factory made hats. And this is the hat that was sold to the Indy fans, seeking a Raiders fedora.

So unless you could pull Swales from retirement, or the grave, to custom make, or bespoke a Raiders fedora, identical to what he made for D.L., owning a HJ Raiders fedora is impossible. And, there is little doubt that Swales would even recall what he did in regards to specs for the Raiders fedora. Because he only made one run of Raider fedoras. When the next films came up, he sold them the Poet, a factory made hat, that supposedly HJ had offered at one time in their history, before hats died.

The revelation that came from Deborah, to me, finally explains it all. It makes perfectly good sense, finally!!!

And this revelation also tells us that if you want a Raiders HJ, FORGET ABOUT IT!!! It will never happen. This was a one time run of hats, never to be repeated. And somehow, that is comforting to me, but only because it finally stops me from wondering 'HOW" the Raiders fedora was so different from what followed. We now know the truth.

I also think it is happily ironic that the first film hat was custom made, and the last film hat was also custom made, although they are not identical hats. But unlike the Raiders fedora, you can actually buy the same custom hat used in the last film. And what other Indy hat can you say this of? Certainly not the TOD or TLC hats. You can't even buy those anymore. They are gone. The felt is not the same type of felt. It is not sold to you by the same company, because HJ is no longer HJ, but a part of S.A.B. Mr. Swales is gone. It is a name only, now, with no links to the past. No more than a modern Stetson is a Stetson made prior to 1970.

To me, it is high time we let HJ die, as they have nothing to do with any of Indy's previous hats. Nothing. For the folks that bought from Mr. Swales, with his shabby dimensional cuts, hang on to those hats!! You have a piece of history in your hands. And if you bought them in the late 80's and early 90's, you actually have the same felt used in TLC hat. And the same ribbon. If you have one with the pentagon crest, you even have the same crest as used in TLC, or at least the crest we see on the LC film.

To me, this is liberating in a manner of speaking. I no longer find the name "HJ" as mystical as I did years ago. But only because I know the HJ of today is not the same HJ of the 3 films era. To me, Swales was HJ, and the last link to the Indy fedora. But, he is gone, retired or dead. Not sure.

In the end, perhaps it is best that a Raider HJ was never available from HJ, once D.L. got her order of custom hats. This will always make the Raider fedora even more mystical, for lack of a better word. It can never be owned. And to me, that makes me happy in an odd sort of way. But only because it keeps this hat unobtainable, and no man will ever sport a real Raiders HJ. We don't deserve it, in a funny sort of way. It will be the one hat that ONLY Indy would ever wear. Somehow I see poetic justice in that fact.

The truth of the matter is this. If you want to own a genuine Indy fedora, a hat that was used in one of the films, the only place you can get one is from AB. Now, not advertising, just stating facts. It may not be your favorite Indy fedora, but at least it is the real deal, and the only real deal Indy fedora that is available today. The Raiders fedora was NEVER available from HJ, but you could buy a LC fedora from Swales at one time, but that time is past. And as I said above, even if you are after a LC HJ, you should have bought it when Swales was still working. Even the LC hat is no longer available. You can get a bad copy, with a factory cut brim, but it is only a copy, and it doesn't even have the same felt, or sweat, or liner for that matter. In essence, you really can only own one real Indy fedora today. I would be less than honest if I said this did not please me to some extent. But what does not please me, is I am not a young man anymore. So, the days are numbered. But it does give me some pleasure to know that years from now, when I am dead and gone, I will still be spoken of. Just like Swales. This blows my mind to even think about it, that one of the many Indy fans actually got the opportunity to make Indy's last hat. In the grand scheme of things it is meaningless, but as long as there are Indy fans, I will be remembered. And hopefully not as the guy who ruined Indy's hat!!! But personally, for me, I am the luckiest guy in the world, and always have been.

Once this thread dies, you guys won't see much of me around here. Part is the work load, and part of it is I am tired of talking, as many of you are tired of listening. I am starting to feel my almost 58 years of life, and my health is not as good as I would wish it to be. But, I will keep on making hats, and it looks like I may have to go past my original hatmaking retirement projection, due to money lost in investments when Wall St. plummetted and mutual funds tanked. My nest egg. Should have gotten out before this plunge occurred. So, it looks like I will still be making at least some hats past the age of 60, but only for as long as I have to do so. Who knows, perhaps my lost money in the market will rebound quickly, but seriously, I don't see that happening. I know other older folks here are in my same boat. You save and you save for old age and you lose more than half of your savings. The only sure thing is death and taxes. Fedora

Once this thread dies, you guys won't see much of me around here.

So, I guess that means we can't let this thread die then, doesn't it?

Seriously, Steve, your name would be spoken with reverance even if you HADN'T done the AB line for CS....at least I know by me.

Thanks for being around, old friend.

Highest regards! Michaelson

Aww, Steve, don't go. I like you around here.

In a way, everything you said, makes sense. This must be a calming sensation for you, knowing that no one can ever have THE Raiders fedora...unless your Desi. But that shouldn't ahve any bearing on whether or not you stick around. But, your health comes first. Oh, and thanks for being the only place to get a REAL Indy hat anymore.

Dave

Very true. We can get "close" to the first three hats - but no cigar. And to agree with Ulloa, the ONLY way to get an actual Raiders hat... is to get an "actual" Raiders hat... And we know Desi isn't selling (not that I blame him... I wouldn't sell it either!). So that leaves the rest of us to plot a raid on Lucasfilm's archives..... opps, was that my outside voice again?

Hope you stay 'round Steve. Besides, you know we named this section after you, right?

This leaves me with some questions though.... If Swales used a block he had on hands that would mean there should be other hats with the same blockshape. Shouldn't the fact that LLS's reconstruction of the vintage "poet" block yields a hat that is spot on for Raiders confirm this?

I do however agree that ever since HJ stoped doing bespoke hats the opportunity of buying a Raiders HJ from them ceased to exist. And the felt change did the same for the TOD and LC hats.

I would like to ad that I would never get tired of you talking Fedora. I always enjoy your posts and treasure the knowledge that can be gleamed from them.

Regards, Geert

Minnesota Jones wrote:So that leaves the rest of us to plot a raid on Lucasfilm's archives..... opps, was that my outside voice again?

######, now Lucas knows we're coming. Nice, now we have to start planning again.

Dave

p.s. We'll take one of the Raiders jackets for Holt while we're there.

We can film it and promote it as the sequel (sort of) to Fanboys. We'll call it.... Indy Fanboys!

Dave

as many of you are tired of listening

I for one am not tired of listening, there is much more to be learned from you Steve!

Steve, I'll never grow tired of hearing from you. In fact, I miss the chats we used to have ages ago. If it ever slows down enough, give me a call again, okay?

Uh, who would be tired of listening? Good gravy they would need to get their heads examined. Let the thread die, ugh?!

I would never get tired of hearing from you Steve. I myself never feel I get enough time chatting with you. I think I could chat with you for a month and still would have questions for you.

After seeing that interview myself , I have to agree with you on everything you stated.


Your friend John

you may be tired of talking, but i know i'm not tired of listening. i have gained alot of hat-making experience from you and i always study my ol' AB's as that is where the bar is set.

i'm sorry to hear about your nest egg and i hope you can recover from it.

i guess the right thing to do is ensure that this thread doesn't die............so mods, how'z about we blow everything out of the fedora section and just have this thread available to reply to for everything under the sun

personally steve, i hope you stick around.......comment on hats here, keep making hats there, and just simply stay cuz of the people

or better yet, why don't you take a trip over to the leather jacket section and observe the civil war?

you gotta stay.........ohio is making me a new block and i know both of us would love to hear your take on it (as well as LLS's).

Steve, I agree whole heartily. To me, the Raiders hat has been the anomaly, not the Temple or Crusade hat. They could be found easily and that is due to just what you said. They were stock, off the shelf hats. Debrorah Nadoolman's own explanation of the production of the hat and her adamant insistance that the hat she had made was not a hat from the shop, but was made to fit her prototype, define the hats history and type. In my mind the anomaly of the Raiders hat is explained. We fans owe a lot to her imagination and creativeness.

Now this talk about "not being around these parts much anymore" and "feeling your age" and "tired of talking" is just crazy talk. Those 200 push-ups and 200 sit-ups you do every morning is causing that. Just cut 'em in half for a month and you'll be fine. .

It is a completion of a circle (or the closing of a traverse loop for you surveyors ) to have the Raiders hat to be a hand made creation and the Crystal Skull hat to also, be a hand made creation. The bonus on the latter, is we know both creators: Marc Kitter and Steve Delk!

Shouldn't the fact that LLS's reconstruction of the vintage "poet" block yields a hat that is spot on for Raiders confirm this?

Only opinion will tell. And just as a sidebar, I never claimed this vintage block to be a Poet block. Just a block.

LLS

Hi Steve

Im the guy in Burnley, UK whom you made the fedora for the central America trip for. I like many others feel that you would be a great loss to the site as YOU are the guy who makes the Indiana Jones fedora. I'm sorry to hear about your nest egg, i suffered a little too but not to the same extent as you. I am sure that the stock market will recover in time and that you will be fine for your retirement. You have many friends on this site, some personal I'm sure and others like me who love the work you do and the wonderful insight, stories and history you bring to the site which adds gravitas and authenticity that is seldom seen these days.

You know we are all indy nuts together and i think its a safe bet that you are just as bad, if not worse than the rest of us!

Stick around Steve, we'll just miss you otherwise and start doing crazy stuff like buying @#$% hats!

MK

Local Land Surveyor wrote:

Shouldn't the fact that LLS's reconstruction of the vintage "poet" block yields a hat that is spot on for Raiders confirm this?

Only opinion will tell. And just as a sidebar, I never claimed this vintage block to be a Poet block. Just a block.

LLS

That's exactly why I said "poet" instead of Poet, but I could have made that clearer.

Regards, Geert

This all sounds very plausible but the one question I have is what about those vintage HJs that you, Steve, had, and LLS has, that you both described as being "dead-ringers" for the Raiders fedora? If HJ never really sold that hat, how did those come into being? Obviously, Swales would have to have re-blocked an existing factory hat to get to what he (or someone at HJ) supplied to Deborah. So somewhere at HJ is (or was) the Raiders block, right? So did those vintage HJs get made on that block? But you said elsewhere HJ never made any hats after WWII - they just sold them. ?? What do those HJs say on them? Anything? Are they Poets?

I'm just confused by the existence of those rare HJs from the late seventies and early eighties that seem to be spot on to the Raiders hat, if this scenario of HJ never having sold the Raiders hat and it being a completely bespoken creation just for the movie is true. Can you explain?

Shouldn't the fact that LLS's reconstruction of the vintage "poet" block yields a hat that is spot on for Raiders confirm this?

I think the vintage HJ he replicated in wood is "the block". Now, I have no proof, but my money says the HJ shop had in stock, the wood blocks that was used at one time by their factory, that is, the original Poet, or whatever it was. That would be common, that is, if you bought an HJ in 1935, and it needed to be refurbed, you would take it to the local shop, where they had in stock the same shape blocks used to make the hat originally. That was the way it was done with Stetson. You bought a Stetson and when the time came for a refurb, they had the same block shape as the hat had when you bought it, so it came out just like what ya bought from their retail store. Swales must have had those old block sets, and chose one that would yield what D.L. was after.

Later on when he started getting the Poets in from a factory, he used what ever block they had in stock that was close to the original one in the small shop. Like I said, no proof of this at all. But, me and LLS both know that the vintage HJs I owned would give you the best looking Raider fedora out there. Where there is smoke.....


And, I am not leaving here. My shortcut will still be on my desktop, but I am talked out, in regards to the Raiders fedora, as D.L. finally answered my questions. So, no more long winded posts from me. But, that don't mean I won't be around, just not running off at the mouth like I have been known to do easily. I will now have the time to check out the rest of this board, as I seldom have had the time to post in the fedora section and read the other sections. Time to catch up on all things Indy. Regards. Steve

I'm glad this thread was started - this is fascinating stuff. Thanks, Steve! I think that pretty much answers my questions. It's always great to read your thoughts and your hard-earned knowledge of hats. Thanks for all you've shared with us.

I'm glad you're not "leaving" per se, Fedora, as I always enjoy your posts and like to hear what your latest hatmaking projects are. I totally understand the health issues though, and I'm sorry to hear that the economy crash took some of your hard-earned savings with it. I guess that's a lesson for me not to rely on the stock market - invest in it maybe. count on it for retirement? No. I hope that your orders will go down so that you'll be able to have a more relaxing life as a hatmaker. Congrats on the peace Nadoolman's latest interview has brought you. Your friend, -M

COW without Fedora? That's basically Indy without the fedora

Steve,
believe me nobody here will ever get tired about your posts. Always a good read. Always bringing in new thoughts. If there will ever be "Indygear- The Book" it will be your posts that are quoted.

I can see what you´ll do after you stopped making hats: You´ll be a philosopher whether you like it or not.

So...does this mean no more AB HJ's?...cause it sounds like HJ "has died in your heart tonight"

Steve you are a man I think every fan looks up too and for good reason. Frankly, I'm always astonished and thankful to see you and Marc keeping up with us ever since your hobby/business has boomed into stardom. It's inspiring to see such humble people and it will be a role model for my career and will remind me to remember. For that, thank you. Thanks for your wonderful passion for Indy too.

Whenever it comes around, I wish you the best retirement any old man could ask for. Maybe you should consider moving to Germany by Marc and soaking in those wonderful woods and mountains.

Matt

In the grand scheme of things it is meaningless, but as long as there are Indy fans, I will be remembered. And hopefully not as the guy who ruined Indy's hat!!!

Not a chance. In anything, I think you will be remembered as the man who perfected Indy's hat. You were already an accomplished and highly-regarded hatmaker from all of the years invested studying and reverse-engineering the Raiders hat, but you and Marc became legends overnight when Adventurebilt got the Indy 4 assignment. Now you are, quite literally, the most famous hatters in the world. And when the day comes to hang up the felt iron and call it quits, you are more than entitled to rest on your laurels, and enjoy the title of Indy's penultimate hatmaker. Bravo, sir. Well done.

Steve I spend most of my time on this form in the fedora section just to read your posts. Its fun to learn about hat making, and your love of the Raiders fedora always come through in your posts. I'm proud to have not only a raiders ab, but the cs hat. I look forward to ordering my sea clipper one day in the future.


And to keep this thread going so you stay around, how were blocks made back in the day? Did the hatters pour over the shape of the block or just take what was there?

Indiana Kev wrote:Steve I spend most of my time on this form in the fedora section just to read your posts. Its fun to learn about hat making, and your love of the Raiders fedora always come through in your posts. I'm proud to have not only a raiders ab, but the cs hat. I look forward to ordering my sea clipper one day in the future.


And to keep this thread going so you stay around, how were blocks made back in the day? Did the hatters pour over the shape of the block or just take what was there?

I know what you mean, sometimes I just do a search for fedora's posts and run through them for more insight.

I agree. You couldn't have walked into Herbert Johnson in 1980 and bought the Raiders hat. It's unique. ................. Kingdom Of The Crystal Scull is my favorite Raiders sequel. When it comes on AMC, I'm shure as heck gonna watch it. Not so with Temple of Doom or Last Crusade. AND, the hats in KOTCS left the TOD and LC hats in the dust. I understand how Fedora and Marc got the job, but it's still an incredible wonder to have seen it happen. I'm always surprised and gratefull Fedora spends so much time here at the foum since he hit the bigtime.

Ok guys there is another scenerio that I think should be mentioned.

What if, just what if, once Mr. Swales had made the prototype, from the Aussie model, he then sent it to whomever they were using at the time, and THEY replicated the hat, 30 or 36 of them, not sure what the original order was. My memory is bad. I never really gave this much credence, but only because I am well aware of the lead times on custom hats, from ANY factory. And generally speaking, from my sparse experience, there is a deadline for acquiring the costume pieces needed for any film. They do have a schedule!

My original conjecture revolved around Mr. Swales ordering a particular hat, that he knew he could get from the factory they were using at the time. We were told that it was the Poet, with the 3 inch brim. He then took these factory Poets, and tweaked them into the Raiders fedora. Or, perhaps he reblocked them(especially if the Poet of that era was the 5 3/4 crown hat we can buy today. The Raiders fedora was not a 5 3/4 crowned hat, that is for sure. He would have had to lower the crowns to get the Raiders height, and this would entail a reblock.

Now, at that time, lets look at who were actually making hats, if you take the USA out of the equation. And understand, that some of these hat making factories are no longer in existence, today, but were during the period Raiders was filmed.

In Norway, you had Norcap.
In Italy, Borsalino, and Tesse.
In England you had Failsworth( a once huge hat factory, and one of only a very few who survived WW2. Also, you had Christy, which made their own hats, under a different name. (different than Christy)
In France you had Krems.(defunct???)
In Spain you had Industrious Sombreros
In Australia you had Akubra.
In South Africa you had Dorian. (now defunct)
In South America you had Cury and one more, the name escapes me now.
And of course you had Tonak in the Czech Republic.

Portugal made bodies, from raw furs to finished bodies, but not hats.

So, any of these factories above, could have made the Poet Mr. Swales used for the Raiders fedora, if indeed he used the Poet. We know for sure he used the Poet for the other two films. But regardless of what he used, the hat had to come from one of the above listed factories. And no doubt that after Raiders, more than one of the above factories was used to make HJs hats, sold in the retail store, by Mr. Swales. But, I personally know of at least twice that suppliers were changed, since I have been an Indy fan.

I have no clue as to how many times suppliers were changed, prior to this. But, I doubt they changed very often, if at all. I would submit that they changed suppliers between Raiders and TOD, because the felt is vastly different in those films. And, I would also submit that the change was made, due to their supplier having to shut down the factory, as was common in that era. Many factories went out of business, including Dorian, and who knows whom else. I also have no clue if Failsworth is still open in England, but I do know at one time Stetson used them to make Stetsons for Europe. Along with Norcap, Tesse, Krems, Industrious Sombreros, Akubra and Dorian.

So, when HJ changed suppliers after Raiders, it was probably because the factory closed its doors. They were forced to change. And that would explain the difference in felt. But who was it? I doubt we will ever know, unless someone comes forth, that was affiliated with HJ during this time period. We could probably figure it out, if we had a timeline of the dates these factories closed.

At one time, someone said, (so it is heresay) that a South American factory was used. But, it very well could have been a South African factory, which did close down for sure, but I don't know when. The reason I would not think HJ used a South American company is because, it is very hard to get timely orders from this part of the world. They live on a different clock! I ran into this when I was trying to buy bodies from a company down there early on. It wasn't Cury, and that is the name I just can't bring up in the memory banks.

Also, something that needs to be mentioned in this thread is some info that is never talked about anymore, but was discussed on Indy Fan years ago. It concerns the ribbon used on the Raiders fedora.

We had anecdotal stories at that time that said the ribbon used on the Raiders fedora was put on by Swales(the hat used had a wide ribbon) and that this ribbon was old stock that was no longer made. So, I am assuming Swales had this ribbon in the walkin shop, and in the past it was used for ribbon replacement in refurbs when called for. If this is indeed factual, that means that Swales did indeed custom make the Raiders fedora, in the shop, but of course he used an existing hat, with a wide ribbon. (reportedly the Poet) That would explain the flying v bow, and no sweatband stitches being visible at the brim break like the TOD and TLC hat. While factories do sew in sweats with the stitches at the brim break, a hand sewn in sweat never puts the stitches at that location. And in the Raiders fedora, we never see the brim break stitches that would be visible, as the ribbon did slide up. That makes me assume that he actually sewed in, or had the sweats sewn in, using a more traditional stitch placement. The vintage HJs I owned were sewn in well above the brim break, as all vintage hats are. And many times, you can even identify a factory by these finger prints. I know that the current maker of the HJ and Christy, in Spain, sews the sweat at the brim break, but the felt used is NOT the same felt as was used in the TOD and TLC hats. And this factory makes its own rabbit felt. As did all of the factories listed above. Failsworth, at one time had 24 formers, capable of producing 50 dozen hats from each former, per day. 16 were in England and the rest in Scotland. (this info comes from that hatting book written a few years ago, Hat Talk I think is the name of it)

But back to the ribbon issue. Now, if Mr. Swales had to replace the wide ribbon with the 39 mm. ribbon of Raiders, that means to me that he did not have D.L.'s vision replicated by the factory HJ was using at the time. Only because he could have told the factory to install the 39 mm ribbon on those hats, instead of the wider ribbon the Poet came with. And he could have gotten the brim dimensionally cut at the factory as well. But, he did the cuts by hand, and reportedly changed out the wider ribbon to a narrower ribbon. So this is something else that leads me to think Swales actually took a hat and customized it for D.L. That is, he simply took a 3 inch brimmed hat, and transformed it into the Raiders fedora. His piece of clay. She did not want the holes that come with the Aussie hat, in her hat.

So, while the current HJs have the Spain finger print in so far as the sweat stitching goes, it does not have the same felt as TLC hat, which means to me they did not make the TOD or TLC hat either, or, they no longer make or use this sort of felt seen in those hats. It is possible that they offered this sort of felt at one time. We can't rule that out completey. And this factory in Spain is a very old one too. So, I guess it is possible that this factory made the other two hats, now that I think about it, but cannot say for sure. The felt issue is bothersome for me, since the current HJs are so much different in the felt than TLC hats.

Now, to totally confuse everyone, including myself, I have seen older Christies with the flying v bow!!! Made in their factory.(now defunct) This too is a finger print. I wish I had an older Christy to look at, one made in England. I would look to see if they stitched the sweat in above the brim break, or on it. If they stitched above the break, this would sure make me think the HJ used for the Raiders fedora was made in England, by a different company!! And, I would also really examine the felt on these English made Christies. Would it not be a hoot if the Christy factory had made the Poets for HJ, at the time Raiders was filmed? Now, if Christy went belly up, during this time period, that would be evidence of whom made the hats that Swales used to customize the Raiders fedora. But then you have the story of him replacing the wide ribbon with the narrow stock. But NOT to mention this would be leaving something out.

Lot of conjecture and info here. And as always, long winded, that is my trademark. But, it gives the folks here that are intrigued by this, much more to think about and ponder. I am good at that!!!

Today, knowing what little that I do know, I am gonna make a wild guess and say the Poet used by Mr. Swales to create the Raiders fedora, came from Dorian, in South Africa. Either that or Failsworth of England. If either of these went belly up after Raiders and before TOD, I think it would be much more plausible, to me. I am looking for the factory that went out of business, and hence the change of felt in the film hats between Raiders and TOD. Find that factory, and I think you will find the source of the Raiders fedora. I do own a couple of hats made by Doriian, and if you took out the stiffener in the hats I own, the felt is remarkable very similiar to the Raiders felt as I percieve it from the film. In texture. Fedora

interesting read thanks !

Thats our Fedora! Short, sweet and to the point! Seriously though, I am saddened that I only found this place 1 year ago. I thought there was noone who thought about this stuff as much as I did, now I know that there are much deeper thinkers than I! Thanks Fedora, for all of the research, time and determination you put into solving the Raiders mystery.

Steve, I hope you stick around! It's comforting to know that the real deal is here and kicking! But you will never be known as "the guy who ruined Indy's hat"! Never! If anything you're "the guy who perfected Indy's hat"!! You made it more durable than ever! AB hats can take a beating from what I hear!! Harrison Ford loved his AB so much that he took it home!

But as always, your health certainly comes first!! Do what you need to do. Take care of yourself! And I hope things work out for you!

If you need anything, don't hesitate to ask. I am your neighbor by the way. I'm only 25 minutes to your west in Starkville!

Hope you stick around, mate!!

Mississippi Jones

I see Mississippi echoes my sentiments. Are we allowed to whip others for plagarism? JK

Wow - I wish I had quizzed Swales more when I was there. My two conversations with him were in 1986 and 1999 at the shop. Points I do recall are that Swales recalled being VERY pressed to get all of the hats immediately and that it was tough. He said that the film company wanted them "yesterday" and that they scrambled to do it. He said that he had a "machine in the basement" with which he put in the super tight pinch in front himself (he didn't mention if he did this to one or all or some of the hats). But I got the impression that whatever factory they were using had to cough up 30 hats and that he finished them in the shop.

My impression at the time at least.

????

And at one time they did use some place in Portugal I remember them saying but they did not say whether it was the place they switched to or from.

Wow - I wish I had quizzed Swales more when I was there. My two conversations with him were in 1986 and 1999 at the shop. Points I do recall are that Swales recalled being VERY pressed to get all of the hats immediately and that it was tough. He said that the film company wanted them "yesterday" and that they scrambled to do it. He said that he had a "machine in the basement" with which he put in the super tight pinch in front himself (he didn't mention if he did this to one or all or some of the hats). But I got the impression that whatever factory they were using had to cough up 30 hats and that he finished them in the shop.

I wish we had more folks here who actually met Mr. Swales and talked with him. There used to be several, back in the days of Indy fan, but I don't recall whom they were.

I do still recall much of the info gleaned from these folks, but not all of it. I recall being surprised when Dakota(I think) bought an HJ and got a letter with it from Swales, stating the brim width on the hat was 2 7/8 by 2 5/8, when we had another account from him stating the brim was 2 3/4 by 2 1/2. I think he got his hats confused. But understandable, because the Raider order from him probably did not stand out in his memory, as it was with D.L. She did not know this was to be an iconic hat, and her memory of the hat is probably faded as well. I am surprised she recalls as much as she does.

Thanks for the kind thoughts on my old body showing the signs of mileage. I have good longevity genes, so I don't plan on checking out for another 30 years! Best regards to all. Fedora

Steve, you are quite the impressive detective . I really like that you don't just know how to make hats, but you know about hats. That's what makes you, you! I just want to say, that I'll surely be front of the line if you do start up a rabbit line soon

-Indy Green

Now you know why his hats are so dang great.

So Steve - if you're not back working right now - are you saying that the vintage HJ like the one Pagey (I think its him at least) owns is NOT the Raiders block?

It looks like it could so very easily become SOC.

And might at least be what Swales used to make the Raiders hat.

This could be a very naive question but I thought that vintage HJs like that were something of a serious gem.

Anyone feel free to chime in on this of course.

darthjones wrote:So Steve - if you're not back working right now - are you saying that the vintage HJ like the one Pagey (I think its him at least) owns is NOT the Raiders block?

It looks like it could so very easily become SOC.

And might at least be what Swales used to make the Raiders hat.

This could be a very naive question but I thought that vintage HJs like that were something of a serious gem.

Anyone feel free to chime in on this of course.

Fedora answered that question a few posts back:

Fedora wrote:

Shouldn't the fact that LLS's reconstruction of the vintage "poet" block yields a hat that is spot on for Raiders confirm this?

I think the vintage HJ he replicated in wood is "the block". Now, I have no proof, but my money says the HJ shop had in stock, the wood blocks that was used at one time by their factory, that is, the original Poet, or whatever it was. That would be common, that is, if you bought an HJ in 1935, and it needed to be refurbed, you would take it to the local shop, where they had in stock the same shape blocks used to make the hat originally. That was the way it was done with Stetson. You bought a Stetson and when the time came for a refurb, they had the same block shape as the hat had when you bought it, so it came out just like what ya bought from their retail store. Swales must have had those old block sets, and chose one that would yield what D.L. was after.

Later on when he started getting the Poets in from a factory, he used what ever block they had in stock that was close to the original one in the small shop. Like I said, no proof of this at all. But, me and LLS both know that the vintage HJs I owned would give you the best looking Raider fedora out there. Where there is smoke.....


And, I am not leaving here. My shortcut will still be on my desktop, but I am talked out, in regards to the Raiders fedora, as D.L. finally answered my questions. So, no more long winded posts from me. But, that don't mean I won't be around, just not running off at the mouth like I have been known to do easily. I will now have the time to check out the rest of this board, as I seldom have had the time to post in the fedora section and read the other sections. Time to catch up on all things Indy. Regards. Steve

Regards, Geert

Right on. I had read this but just getting into semantics I guess. The thread is called "impossible to own a Raiders HJ" and Steve mentions 1935 but I just always had the impression that the hats we see on screen in Raiders are all from an HJ block, the one that led to Steve's vintage HJs.

Perhaps modified or lowered or whatever from there but HJ blocks nonetheless such THAT...drumroll...

if you have an HJ hat from, let's say, 1970 in that brown color with that block you have a Raiders hat except that it might be 1/4" too tall or something.

Again, just yapping.

Just looks to me that if you thrash that vintage HJ (having a hard time finding photos of it right now) you get SOC 9 times out of 10, no?

I mean, heck - the Raiders hero fedora we see posted now looks like a thrashed HJ from the time, nothing more.

Have to add though that I see almost nothing compared to Steve of course but dang, those vintage HJs look the part to me...

They do look the part, but my guess is they miss the dimensional cut, aren't blocked to the same height, have different width of ribon or a different width of brim... If anny of these modifications is missing it is not a Raiders fedora, at least, stricktly speaking it isn't.

I also read the post I quoted as saying that by the time there were people wanting a Raiders HJ, they couldn't buy one anymore. The corect blockshape might have been available before the time Raiders was shot, but it wasn't soon after.

Regards, Geert

Ha! So we just need to find someone with the b***s to cut the brim down on a vintage HJ and reblock it lower with a new ribbon...

Anyone?!

My take on this vintage HJ being the Raiders blockshape is just an opinion. But, if you ever held this hat in hand, it would be hard not to come up with that same opinion. It just stank of Raiders, and of course the felt on that one vintage HJ while not the right brown, would bulge like crazy and this also helped immensely in it having the "look".

I know HJ changed suppliers, at least a couple of times in the time I have been interested in the hat. Now, ask yourself, what are the chances of each factory having the original HJ block, be it a Poet or whatever it was. You guys recall when they used to sell the McAlpine, in the 90's? I don't think they even offer this hat these days.

That it would be a long shot that each factory actually had the exact Poet block explains why the Poet has not been consistent, over the past 12 to 15 years. It could be that before HJs supplier went under, this particular factory had the block we see in Raiders, then perhaps not. Who knows? My money still says Swales had a set of blocks left over from the bespoke days, and the refurb days, and used that for D.L. This would certainly fit it with her saying that the English hatters had a long tradition of making bespoke, or custom hats and used them for the Raiders fedora.

I do know one thing for sure though. Making bespoke hats, like I(we) did for the last film will throw a wrench in the gears when you have thousands of folks placing orders for this hat!!! I wish we would have had a factory hat in place, which would have made the lead times really good, and would have been expoetially less of a headache. No doubt Swales, being in the business for all of his life was well aware of this, and made the adjustments and corrections with the advent of the second film. By then, he must have been aware of the demand that would be created from the trilogy. So, he was very astute in giving Tony a factory hat for the next two films. And then act as if this WAS THE HAT used in all of the films. Good business sense, as he would never have had the time to bespoke thousands of orders and still be in charge of that retail shop! If there is a next film, we could not get away with this though. Bernie would know it as soon as he got the hat in! Not saying our factory hat is not good, but D.L. would have been the same if she had been on board for TOD. She would have noticed differences in what she designed, and what the factory Poet was. Just as Bernie would. Both it seems were very exacting in what they wanted. Anally so too. Fedora

Fedora wrote:To me, it is high time we let HJ die...To me, this is liberating in a manner of speaking. I no longer find the name "HJ" as mystical as I did years ago.

Agreed 100% Thanks, Steve for bringing this up.

When I was going through my hat making process, I found more disappointment than satisfaction when I would buy an HJ. On the flip side, I got more compliments and enjoyment out of the hats I made myself. I came to the same conclusion that it was never going happen the way I wanted with an HJ. But, with my own stuff I could do so much more.

I am proud of the HJs that I own because of the history they hold. But that's about it. They are more museum or reference pieces than actual articles of clothing.

Just my $0.02
Pyr.

As a direct tangent to this, has anyone done a side by side comparison (for fun, not harping!) of the Raiders Terry Leonard hat from screen caps and the new LLS block?

I'm wondering how the LLS block would hold that Terry Leonard shape.

Given how well it does the Raiders Ford hat it should also do the Terry Leonard as well, right?

Curious since I was just looking at Leonard's hat in profile and it does not look that "low" or rounded in the back of the relatively open crown (I think).

True though too that something drastic like ironing the crown lower on Ford's hat may not have been done to Leonard's hat.

Anyway, would be fun to hear about from those who have seen more of an open, tear drop bash of the LLS.

I was wondering if anyone has asked _ for his thoughts on these new theories. According to his posts on this subject, there are receipts proving that all hats supplied to the Raiders production were HJ Poets.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble with anyone, I'm just interested in keeping history accurate. Let's be sure we know all the existing facts before we start rewriting it.

Jack

eazybox wrote:I was wondering if anyone has asked _ for his thoughts on these new theories. According to his posts on this subject, there are receipts proving that all hats supplied to the Raiders production were HJ Poets.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble with anyone, I'm just interested in keeping history accurate. Let's be sure we know all the existing facts before we start rewriting it.

Jack

No one is rewriting history here. I would trust DL memory of her work over most anything else. Just look at the other 2 hats ( TOD and LC) both have the same bow but the Raiders had a total different look. Just to use one example of the hat. TOD and LC are simple to reproduce using the current HJ but not the Raiders ,What changed? DL changed thats what. I haven't seen any receipt proving anything and just because a receipt says poet on it doesn't mean it's the same thing as what you get today or even them. They could have simple use the same felt as the poet and need to add a name on a receipt.

BendingOak wrote:

eazybox wrote:I was wondering if anyone has asked _ for his thoughts on these new theories. According to his posts on this subject, there are receipts proving that all hats supplied to the Raiders production were HJ Poets.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble with anyone, I'm just interested in keeping history accurate. Let's be sure we know all the existing facts before we start rewriting it.

Jack

No one is rewriting history here. I would trust DL memory of her work over most anything else. Just look at the other 2 hats ( TOD and LC) both have the same bow but the Raiders had a total different look. Just to use one example of the hat. TOD and LC are simple to reproduce using the current HJ but not the Raiders ,What changed? DL changed thats what. I haven't seen any receipt proving anything and just because a receipt says poet on it doesn't mean it's the same thing as what you get today or even them. They could have simple use the same felt as the poet and need to add a name on a receipt.

Well, _ is the real authority on all of this. He put years of research into the details of the costume for this site, and I personally would trust his findings, whatever they may be. There have been constant revisionist theories over the years, but memories can become foggy over time, and hard facts don't lie. I'm not prejudiced either way, and I'm not attacking you, Steve or anyone else. I'm just interested in the truth.

Jack

eazybox wrote:

BendingOak wrote:
I haven't seen any receipt proving anything and just because a receipt says poet on it doesn't mean it's the same thing as what you get today or even them. They could have simple use the same felt as the poet and need to add a name on a receipt.

eazybox wrote:
Well, _ is the real authority on all of this. He put years of research into the details of the costume for this site, and I personally would trust his findings, whatever they may be. There have been constant revisionist theories over the years, but memories can become foggy over time, and hard facts don't lie. I'm not prejudiced either way, and I'm not attacking you, Steve or anyone else. I'm just interested in the truth.

Jack

Oak makes a good point... if there are receipts, how do we know they can be considered as fact? Just because it says Poet on it doesn't mean it actually was a Poet sold... they might have just said that cause it was pretty close to what they did sell them.

jnicktem wrote:

eazybox wrote:

BendingOak wrote:
I haven't seen any receipt proving anything and just because a receipt says poet on it doesn't mean it's the same thing as what you get today or even them. They could have simple use the same felt as the poet and need to add a name on a receipt.

eazybox wrote:
Well, _ is the real authority on all of this. He put years of research into the details of the costume for this site, and I personally would trust his findings, whatever they may be. There have been constant revisionist theories over the years, but memories can become foggy over time, and hard facts don't lie. I'm not prejudiced either way, and I'm not attacking you, Steve or anyone else. I'm just interested in the truth.

Jack

Oak makes a good point... if there are receipts, how do we know they can be considered as fact? Just because it says Poet on it doesn't mean it actually was a Poet sold... they might have just said that cause it was pretty close to what they did sell them.

In other words, "Don't confuse me with the facts."

Jack

What? Have you never received a receipt that did not perfectly describe exactly what you ordered?