Observation on the Raiders Hats

[theinterchange]

We all know and love the Raiders fedoras. But as I was thinking about the hats in the movie a thought struck me that never had before.

Ok, enter the idol grab. a nice looking hat, it gets spider webs on it, then gets wet.

Enter the Raven bar fight, not too much difference, still looking good, albeit a little rougher.

NOW, we get to Cairo, and blooey! You've got a hat that looks like it's been to heck and back. WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN NEPAL and CAIRO?! How did the hat get THAT dirty, and trashed in that period of time?

Wardrobe continuity issue?

Anyone have a theory or as Paul Simon says "maybe I think too much for my own good. some people say so, other people say no no"

Randy

[Bullitt]

WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN NEPAL and CAIRO?! How did the hat get THAT dirty, and trashed in that period of time?

I guess airport employees were rough with luggage even back in the day!

[gwyddion]

That, or customs

Regards, Geert

[JME2]

Isn't there a theory that states that the hat's condition in the Cairo sequences was the felt reacting to the heat of the Tunisia desert?

[Local Land Surveyor]

I don't know what happened, but let's find that person and I'll ship my hats to them before getting it to the customer.

[theinterchange]

I don't know what happened, but let's find that person and I'll ship my hats to them before getting it to the customer.

I tend to agree. I love the Cairo hat! Just wondering what people think happened to it along the course of the movie.

Randy

[Chewbacca Jones]

Maybe the desert sun does to a hat what florescent bulbs supposedly do to your face - reveal ever little imperfection and magnify it!

[Michaelson]

Let's face it, his brown hat got little, if any, respect. You can even see Indy pull it out of his Mark VII to put on when the diggers were clearing the Well of Souls. Ever tried that to one of YOUR HATS?

Not sure what happened to the grey travel fedora in the mean time, but he COULD have still been using THAT in travel between Napal and Cairo, while his brown was languishing crushed back in his bag or suitcase. That will definitely take a toll on it's appearance.

Once again, all theory and PURE conjecture, but we have bits and pieces of a puzzle to create a plausible answer.

Regards! Michaelson

[DR Ulloa]

I never noticed that.

I guess it makes sense, though. When I see him bend over and pick it up, I always assumed that one of Sallah's diggers carried the hat with him.

Dave

[ksteryous]

Yeah, and how did he ever get his whip back from the beginning of the movie....when he's running away from the tribesmen to Joc's sea plane, he's not carrying it or it's not hanging from his hip, but then when he's home packing for the Ark trip, it's there again.

Ok, sorry for the brief hijack, I know this is a fedora thread.

Kenton

[DR Ulloa]

We all have backups to our gear right? I can only assume that Indy had backups to his. I would guess that the whip seen after Belloq takes the original is his backup. After dragging behind the truck, though, he must have bought a new one cause it must have been destroyed.

Dave

[Mitch LaRue]

Well, I don't know about "Nepal" to Cairo" but as for what happened to the hat between San Fransisco and Nepal...
All I know is:
It sounds like good, rich fodder for an entertaining Fan Film that's just waiting to be made.

Just by virtue of the fact that:
Indy's face is as smooth as a baby's bottom when he steps onto the plane and THEN he's scruffier than he's been in any of the movies SINCE when he steps into the Raven with a "Hello, Marion..." means that a least a FEW days went by from one event to the other.

Has anyone written the script for "Indiana Jones and the Rough Road to Nepal" or "Indiana Jones and the Low Road to the Raven"?
('Cuz I'm available to play Indy just as soon as I get mt Adventurebilt Shirt!)
Just sayin'...

So...
Where did you want me to stand? ...
Over here? ...
(Just lemme curl up the side of this brim until you're ready to say "Action!")

[Michaelson]

A lot of that 'time' between San Francisco and Napal was covered in the Raiders novelization.

Regards! Michaelson

[Mitch LaRue]

Ahhh...

Y'See... I did NOT know that (add it to the list of things, I guess...)

So, then...
Is there an Fan Film ADAPTED Screenplay floating around?

Cuz I'm STILL available!

[Michaelson]

You go ahead, Mitch.

I'll stay here at the lunch wagon eating my bagal and cream cheese and drinking coffee.

Regards! Michaelson

[Chewbacca Jones]

The most severe distressing I've ever seen on a COW member's hat (without actual damage caused) was a hat that traveled in a suitcase... several times! Scary, but works like a dandy!

Mitch, if I recall my Raiders novel correctly, Indy is in Nepal for a while before actually getting to the Raven. Before I was on COW, I read someplace that the script upon which the book was based contained some of that material.

As for the whip issue - how many of us would only have one whip if we had a practical use for them? Heck, how many of us have more than one without having a practical use for them!?!

[Mitch LaRue]

Hmmm.... actually, those bagels & cream (to say nothing of the almight Coffee) DOES look rather tempting, Michaelson...

And hey, would you beleive me if I told you that the entire time I was writing those posts I was thinking
"Heh heh heh... If I keep him talking, I'll get Michaelson THAT much closer to his (ultimately meaningless, but STILL fun to acknowledge) 25, 000th Post!"

Well, wouldya?
Fox

[Michaelson]

Yeah, but I delete as many as I post, so it's like treading water....

Regards! Michaelson

[Mitch LaRue]

The Ol' "one step forward, TWO steps back" syndrome, huh?

Anyway, back ON topic, this thread WAS about how the Raiders Hat seemed to have been "put hrough the ringer".

In honor of this, does anybody want to post a photo - or two - of an impressively beaten fedora? (I seem to remember seeing a few photos last summer that made say "Whoa! Now THAT's a beaten up fedora!")

[Michaelson]

Here's one I highjacked from the Todd's jacket thread by Weston that I thought looked very nice. I have NO idea what it is, though....:



Not a true 'Raiders', I know, but it sure captures the spirit of the gear, doesn't it?

Regards! Michaelson

[gwyddion]

Yes it does But so do all of Weston's action pictures. I sometimes wish he would post more of those.

I don't know what was supposed to have caused the apearance of the SOC hat, but I know it wasn't fanning: cocpit hat anyone

Regards, Geert

[Fedora]

Ya know, the elusiveness of the Raiders fedora has alot to do with the very porous rabbit felt used for that hat. This sort of felt shrinks readily in the heat, and no doubt these hats shrunk up. And like that sort of felt, it bulged easily, so when the hat tapered, the bulges took some of it out. The outside the temple hat at the start of the film looks like an anomaly, when compared to the other hats in the film. But, in my opinon, this is the exact same blockshape, it just has not shrunk, and was in a fairly pristine shape, like, new out of the box. The other scenerio was that it was a completely different block shape, but that is hard to swallow. So, it is very credible that the various looks we see in the other Raider hats is due to "wear" and the heat. The hat we see in the behind the scenes video of Ford, getting ready to do his drag behind the truck scene, shows a very squarish dome, in fact much more boxy like, just like the opening scenes hat. And of course, there is Terry's hat that is very boxy looking. In my opinion, this is what the hats looked like, right from Swales hands. Then you add the heat and the wear and the hats taper and bulge, and you get many of the other hats in the film, specifically the SOC hat. The crown looks shorter, the brim droops, and this is typical behaviour of rabbit felt in the heat, and the rigors of doing an action film.

This will throw a monkey wrench into the gears when you are trying to reverse engineer a particular block shape. If you are trying to make a block that looks like the SOC hat, you won't end up with the blockshape of the opening scene hat. You have to sculpt your block to match a shrunk up hat. Which is very difficult to do.

With this said, if you start with the same blockshape as was used on the Raider fedoras, eventually your hat will shrink to match the other hats in the film, especially if you are buying rabbit felt. And the right rabbit felt.

I have seen basically 3 types of rabbit felt. First, the vintage Borsalino felt that was extremely high quality felt, very tightly felted, which prohibits the bulging of a lessor quality felt. Face it, back in the hey day of hats, a bulging fedora was a sign of a cheap hat. And something no small hatter would want to sell. It told others you were wearing a cheap hat.

The other type of felt is the porous felt you see in the Raiders fedora, and also on some of the old films. But in those same films, generally you saw the high quality felt too. Some have confused this porous felt with the bench mark in regards to a vintage dress hat. That is not so! You would be hard pressed to find an upper end hat, like a Cavanagh that used porous felt. Instead, you would have found those hats to have tightly felted felt, with a very smooth finish, no fuzzies.

The other type of felt is like you see in Akubras, and the HJs of the 90's. Which by the way, TLC hat was of this felt. It is a tighter rabbit, stiffer, and the same sort is used on many western hats today, except, the western hats are thicker, or heavier. It is more similiar to the vintage Borsas, than to the porous type, except the old Borsas were very soft and mellow, and used mercury in the production, which made a much better rabbit felt. And no doubt, the old Borsas were a tighter hat, so you really can't compare the two, except in the tightness category. All similiarity ends when you get past the tighness.

One critique of the CS fedora was that it looked like a western hat, made into a fedora. But, if you confuse the porous low quality felt with all vintage dress hats, this is a big mistake. All dress hats back in the day were NOT porous felt, like the Royal and Royal Deluxe line out of Stetson way back when, just to name a couple of numerous ones. If you had the money to fork out, you could buy a much tighter, and smooth fedora back then. And many companies sold beaver dress hats, but you better dig deep to buy them. The beaver fur was not limited to just western hats, in fact, most western hats back then were made of rabbit, or a blend. Fedora

[whipcracker]

I think that perhaps we are forgeting that traveling in 1936 was a lot rougher, especially in remote areas, of which Nepal and Cairo were still pretty remote. Stuff gets banged up in a hurry. I remember when I first went to meet my in-laws 11 years ago in SW Mexico. Tiny village, the kind that if you miss the bus you have to wait in town until the next day to get there and nobody leaves during the rainy season...

Anyway, by the end of the trip brand new luggage looks like it had been to Nepal-Cairo-AND Akator and back in two weeks. So I always figured he wears his airplane clothes to the hotel he stays at in whatever city/town leaves them in the room, wears his gear all over the place while he searches for Marion (gets dirty) then they have to high tail it out of Nepal because there's bad guy after 'em, gets to hotel (throw gear [dirty] into suitcase puts on airplane suit and hat), gets to Cairo, changes at Salah's place into gear (probably washed, except for hat..., at Salah's by his wife or local clothes washer person) but there's alot of dust in Cairo and who knows really how long they were in Cairo. Clothes washed but not hat.

I know that's rambling but I wnated to get in as much as possible. That's what I always thought. Besides, when I broke horses in AZ you never cleaned your hat except to dry sponge it to get most if the dust of. You hat is a tool, it gets used and not babied. When my hat gets rained on now I can still smell that beautiful smell of AZ dust and horses.

[Fedora]

You hat is a tool, it gets used and not babied.

A man after my heart! We feel exactly the same way. Indy did too! Fedora

[thecoolmiester]

i think they just wanted the hat to look extra dirty for the Cairo scene.
It could of been the decision of the guys in charge of wardrobe.

[kiltie]

So nobody thinks there was more down time between the Raven and the Streets of Cairo scene? I mean, they had a lot of planning to do, Sallah had to contact all of his buddies, do interviews and stuff ( he couldn't trust just any of the guys around the water cooler ). So maybe there's a lot more mundane stuff going on between where Indy shows up at Sallah's house and then he and Marion go a-courtin' through the romantic streets of Cairo. Time enough to say... send the hat to Fedora or Marc for a reblock?
Seriously. Think about it: Kingdom of the Crystal Skull wasn't out yet, and AB hadn't even been announced as the Indy hat maker, so there wouldn't be as big a back-log; less turnaround time. Happens that the 7 1/4 block is open at juuuuust the right time...
I'm just sayin'.

[Indy35]

My guess is there were probably a dozen or so hats that Ford might have had access to, the early shooting would have a "new" hat with artificial distressing only, as the shooting wore on, costumes being packed and shipped, weather in the locations and the costumers beating on them, and stunts taking there toll, the hat's going to show "age" quickly. That and i think the variation in hats shape comes, again, from different hats and the scenes Ford did stunts in i swear he's wearing a hat way too small for him.

The continuity in KOTCS was just as bad, if not worse. At times the hat looked sparkling new, and others it looked years old. I know its been mentioned here before that Bernie Pollack hated this, and i can see why. It's very, very noticable.

[Hollowpond]

Here's one I highjacked from the Todd's jacket thread by Weston that I thought looked very nice. I have NO idea what it is, though....:



Not a true 'Raiders', I know, but it sure captures the spirit of the gear, doesn't it?

Regards! Michaelson

I think its a JPD. And Michaelson, back to your earlier post; I never knew he had his hat in his MK VII! Jeezum crow!!! Who in here has ever packed their hat like that?

[indy89]

And Michaelson, back to your earlier post; I never knew he had his hat in his MK VII! Jeezum crow!!! Who in here has ever packed their hat like that

I have a few times.

[3thoubucks]

The truck explosion Cairo shot was the last North Africa shot. This means the Ark diggs were filmed first. When Indy rides the horse out of the tent, the hat isn't even dusty yet. There was only one Raiders hat (beside the Hawaii hat). Otherwise, they could have avoided the Cairo/ dig site continuity issue by using a second hat.