Club Obi Wan

Since I am now also owner of a Todd's (aka Coyle) shirt I decided it was time to do some comparison for the sake of it. I must say I didn't order the Todd blindly but I was lucky to be able to see it first and try it on, I liked it imediately so I grabbed the occasion, without P&P, I think I got a bargain. The previous owner disliked it so this review starts under the sign of torn-thoughts... but let's proceed in order:

Both my Wested and my Todd are Medium sized while the Noel Howard is something... different so don't consider the NH as a comparison for the size fit but it can still give you an idea. Considering that the NHs are not produced anymore (at least for the moment) I will talk of it just for reference but my review is mostly on the Wested and the Todd.

THE CUT
The Noel Howard is generally known as having a flattering cut while the Wested is known for being baggy. Both these rumors are true, my Wested M does fit like an XL. I bought my wested in 2005 so I am not sure if anything has changed in the generous fit of that shirt. Now the Todd was new to me and I had no idea what to expect before I saw it. But, as I said, as soon as I put it on I liked the fit imediately. I have long arms and a rather small chest for my height so the bloody "fit" has always been a problem, normal sleeves are generally too short for me.
While the Wested sleeves are quite normal for the M size, they happen to be slightly short for my arms but the sleeves on Todd shirt are a size that do fit me excellently. If you have long-arm problems the Todd is the shirt for you... but it makes me wonder if that also means that the Todd is too long for average guys with normal arms (not monkey arms like me).

NH - WESTED - TODD




notice how LARGE the Wested Medium is compared to the Todd's medium. Notice also (in the first picture) how the NH pockets are placed slightly higher than the other two (which I think is very screen accurate) while Wested pockets hang undignifidely low making the tallest of us look like a dork when matched with a pair of WWII pinks... which is what happened in Indy 4 if you ask me... gosh I hated the shirt in the 4th movie!

POCKETS
Pockets size and pockets placement... how many times have we heard that (and worried about it)!?

NH - WESTED - TODD

I was a bit surprised when I placed these three shirts side by side. You can see the NH are the smallest while the Wested are a bit taller but also very large (which has always been the problem with Wested shirt in my opinion). Todd's are longer but looking good I have to say.
Another problem with pockets is... are they placed at the CORRECT level with the third (or 4th considering the very first) button? In these cases... yes they are BUT if the buttons are spaced differently? Well that brings us on the next topic...

BUTTONS & Length
Look at this variety! Both in length and buttons placement... (from above NH- WST - TODD)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... ttons1.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... ttons2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... ttons3.jpg

COLOUR
The colour was a bit harder to catch on camera but hopefully after seeing so many pictures you might have had an idea. I will not debate about that but I can say that the wested is the lightest, the other two are quite close in colour (save for the slightly different hue... I know it's still a big difference for nutcases like us) but being VERY different material it's hard to decide if you are judging the colour or the material really, which bring me to the next point...

FEEL & MATERIAL
Noel Howard shirt is the lightest and smoothest cotton that was ever made into a shirt (possibly). It reacts like what we see in the film, even the sweatmarks appears identical and in the same place (yuk but YAY!). Puppetboy states that the original shirt analyzed by experts in a lab does not appear to be made of the same material of NH shirts... having touched both the screen used one (possibly from Raiders) and NH reproduction I must say I didn't spot any noticeable difference, so if it was different at a molecular level, well yes I can believe it... that it was a completely different material, I doutb it. Kt you touched both at the same time, can you give us fresher details on that?

Wested shirt is smooth, lightweight but thicker and tougher... therefore heavier than NH. It feels like a regular dressy shirt, nothing dislikable but not indiana jones either.

Todd's is I believe heavier than the Wested, the texture is kinda weird, while the other two are smooth, this one has a gritty feel and look that you can clearly spot here. (Although it doesn't take away from the comfort)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... ollars.jpg
Also the collar and the cuffs are very stiff... I haven't washed this shirt yet so that might not be permanent, if it is... well that is annoying.

Here is a set of pictures made in the attempt of giving an idea of "see through" these shirts are.
NH: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... texile.jpg
WESTED: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... texile.jpg
TODD: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... texile.jpg

OTHER DETAILS
The seamwork is at the highest levels on the Noel Howard (that is REALLY a fancy shirt, the more you look at it the more you understand why it costed so much), it's quite allright on the Todd's and unfortunately not screen accurate on the Wested shirt.

The owners of Wested shirts already know that it comes with an extra button on the cuffs to fits different wrists, a smart idea but not really screen accurate (I can understand the reason though). What maybe not everyone has noticed is that the wested has a rounded corner while the NH (and the TODD) have a sharp square corner
NH - TODD - WESTED
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... Tcuffs.jpg

Pleats appear much smaller in the Wested while almost identical size in NH and Todd
TODD - WESTED - NH
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... atsize.jpg

NH - WESTED - TODD

epaulettes appear untapered both in the Wested and Todd but in the latter they are placed far from the neck... and so they hang much more over the shoulder. Sizewise I would say that the Wested are the wider while in length I'm not totally sure but I think Todd's are the longest (I forgot to check that out).


MY CONCLUSION
Although I'm a great fan of the Wested jackets I make no mysteries of the fact that I'm not fan of Wested shirt, to me it's wrong wrong wrong, in the cut, in the look, in the pockets, in the pleats, in the seams and I'm so glad to hear about future plans concerning this product so I won't have to hate the Wested shirt forever... a day it will change and hopefully it will be a NH-style!
I must admit that the Todd has somewhat impressed me, perhaps it's because I had low expectations but more likely it's because it looks good on me. On top of the list there is the Noel Howard shirt as best on every front. What's wrong with the Todd then? Well the colour and the material... once Puppetboy (aka Todd) will have changed the material and the colour I think I will openly admit that I love Todd's shirt, until then it's just a good-enough shirt for when I don't want to dirt my precious NH and a great substitute to my baggy Wested. It was said to me (in a different thread) that this might change too so I have high hopes in both Peter and Puppetboy that their products will improve as soon as possible... and the sooner the better for us. If I had to suggest which shirt to choose between the two, honestly, at the moment I would wait until the changes will happen with these two vendors and in the meantime check out the Adventurebuilt shirt which I have not personally seen but it seems to be the best choice after the original NH, at least by the look of it.

However... between the Todd and the Wested, for my body type and for my liking, the Todd is the best choice but as with everything what looks good oneme might not look good on you so always keep in consideration all the factors and check the detailed measurements of the shirt, Puppetboy kindly published them on his website so check those carefully before purchasing one.

Great work! I like all these comparison pics from everyone. I think Todd said something about having used a shirt worn only under the jacket as a pattern.. and he said it was slightly different from the ones worn for Cairo. Don't quote me but unless I'm having a delusion, he said this.

Randy

I guess I didn't hear the whole story then, I only knew he had access to a screen used shirt, that is all I know. It's safe to say that not one shirt used in the film was exactly identical to another since they were all handmade and well that's how it works in the business, so yes it might be that both NH and Todd's are accurate. Well I surely hope Puppetbuy will see the thread and tell us more about it

I found it in the thread Todd started asking opinions on possible non Indy colors.

almost 3/4 the way down.

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... ilit=shirt

Seems as if there's another thread where he goes into greater detail..

Randy

Are you referring to this?

Puppetboy wrote:

So, the shirt you're modeling this after is from the Raiders production?

Yes it is, however there were (my theory) two types of shirts. There are the few "hero" shirts made at Berman & Nathans, and then the rest which were made in Italy. (My theory) The "hero" shirts were used in scenes without a jacket, and the rest were worn under the jacket, stand-ins, stunt men, etc. I suspect there are small differences in the British-made shirts and the Italian-made shirts. The shirt I had indirect access to was an Italian shirt worn under the jacket, specifically some Well of Souls scenes. I would expect that the main details, like size and dimensions, would be the same, but small details might be different. Incidentally, I just received a call from a friend who has a friend that owns one of the Berman & Nathan's shirts from Raiders, so I hope soon I will have specs from that one as well to compare. The owners of these shirts will not come on COW because the "experts" will give them nothing but grief and they know that. I even hesitated to mention it myself because I expect to get grief from the "experts" as well. Bottom line, it is true that I had help from an owner of a real Raiders HF shirt in the form of detailed close-up photos, measurements, and hours worth of phone time asking detailed questions, and I'm not going to do battle to prove it. Period. (hopefully, I will get to inspect the shirt in person soon!)

Italian-made uh?
That sounds totally new to me (I never noticed that thread) but I can agree on the fact that there could have been two kind of shirts (although I have no basis to say the other kind was Italian made... I'm curious to hear more on that).
So is this Todd shirt a copy of a hero shirt or a copy of a stunt-shirt?

Like I said, I couldn't remember exactly what he said.. and there's more on the announcement thread, which I didn't dig fur enough back to find.

Randy

Erri, THANK YOU for this.
Lots & LOTS of REALLY useful Info here!
Great work.
Mitch

This is a very informative review, Erri. I was thinking about getting a Todd's or a Magnoli, because I need something slim fitting. While I do have an AB in small, it only fits right in the shoulders. The rest is just too baggy and the sleeves are a bit long. But for now I think I will just wait and see how new offering are developing.

Mitch LaRue wrote:Erri, THANK YOU for this.
Lots & LOTS of REALLY useful Info here!
Great work.
Mitch

my pleasure, thanks for appreciating it

Bullitt wrote:This is a very informative review, Erri. I was thinking about getting a Todd's or a Magnoli, because I need something slim fitting. While I do have an AB in small, it only fits right in the shoulders. The rest is just too baggy and the sleeves are a bit long. But for now I think I will just wait and see how new offering are developing.

Thanks Bullit, unfortunately I have no experience with the AB shirts so I cannot really help you with that but by the sound of it you need something REALLY small. If you want to show me a picture of how it looks on you feel free to send me a PM, it might be the case of you only THINKING that it doesn't fit you right (sometimes it happens). As for the sleeves length, I don't know, I never cared for too long sleeves (but for too short yes!), afterall they always raise up when you wear a jacket... but again perhaps I should see some pictures, they might not be that bad. Long story short, don't put your AB shirt in the classifieds just yet!

As for the Todd, since you have an AB, if you REALLY want another shirt wait a while longer until Puppetboy changes the material. It's not the greatest of the texture the one he's currently using.

As for the Magnoli's, high respects for the vendor but I personally don't like the shirt at all, the details look coarse and the design still far from the screen accuracy I would be looking for. Still it has the advantage of being made to measure (so that might be helping your case afterall) and coming in different colours (but choose wisely), I have no idea how's the texture of those shirts though.

great comparison pictures

Great comparison! You can really see how fitted the Noel Howard shirt is, and that is what I like to see. I wish I could find one. The Wested shirt does look very big compared to the other two.

Great comparisons, Erri! Especially good to see how Todd´s compares to NH´s.

What size is the NH and how much did you want me to pay for it? I forget.

Great review and all.

This might go as a separate thread.

I just like to say, although I think the NH shirt is the best unavailable today, (I sell 2 of mine brand new sealed in bag for $1000 each) I also think that it is not SA.

Why you ask? I'll tell you. I used to have an MBA which I sold (idiot) because I didn't like it. Its details were different than NH's. So it means that NH altered the MBA to make his, so SAness is gone. That is IF we accept that the MBA was SA in the first place.

I also doubt that because I think that there is excess room in the upper sleeves of the MBA/NH shirt. There's one photo of Indy with Marion that shows that the upper sleeve of the shirt has room to just enough to fit HF's arm in leaving space of 1 or 2 cm max.

Now measure the circumference of the upper sleeve of NH shirt and then measure the circumference of average joe's arm (taken average joe is no body builder and has same height weight body type with HF). You will see that there's room there to fit more than 1 arm and a half.

I remember the shirts we were wearing in the 80s were too tight even in the arms. NH's shirt is slim in the body but the in the sleeves it suffers a little bit. (No, I am not decreasing the price of $1000 because of that).


Now unless HF was a body builder,

Hey PLATON,

I´ve got two unused MBA shirts. One Raiders, one TOD. Yours for $2000 each.

great great post - any chance you could bring the Adventurebilt shirt into the mix lol -just kidding! I have the Wested and agree that its not that great. just feels too bulky for me. Ive ordered a Todds and am hopeful of an improvement.

MK

Satipo, not for sale sorry

PLATON wrote:Great review and all.

This might go as a separate thread.

I just like to say, although I think the NH shirt is the best unavailable today, (I sell 2 of mine brand new sealed in bag for $1000 each) I also think that it is not SA.

Why you ask? I'll tell you. I used to have an MBA which I sold (idiot) because I didn't like it. Its details were different than NH's. So it means that NH altered the MBA to make his, so SAness is gone. That is IF we accept that the MBA was SA in the first place.

I also doubt that because I think that there is excess room in the upper sleeves of the MBA/NH shirt. There's one photo of Indy with Marion that shows that the upper sleeve of the shirt has room to just enough to fit HF's arm in leaving space of 1 or 2 cm max.

Now measure the circumference of the upper sleeve of NH shirt and then measure the circumference of average joe's arm (taken average joe is no body builder and has same height weight body type with HF). You will see that there's room there to fit more than 1 arm and a half.

I remember the shirts we were wearing in the 80s were too tight even in the arms. NH's shirt is slim in the body but the in the sleeves it suffers a little bit. (No, I am not decreasing the price of $1000 because of that).

Listen I don't want to sound rude or stirr troubles, I have nothing against you Platon, but once you said you were kidding about the $1000, now you sound way too serious... who do you think would buy a NH shirt for $1000? A vintage HJ, period-accurate and blocked (presumably) on the Raiders block was sold for that kind of money a while back, do you think the NH shirt is a collectable at the same level? I don't mean to sound aggressive but I find a bit tastless this kind of attempted speculation only because Mr. Howard is no longer with us.

Going back on the topic of your message, I can agree with the fact that not all the details are totally accurate on the NH shirts but it is more accurate than the MBA (the MBA was less accurate in my opinion) and is the most accurate yet produced (still in my opinion). Hopefully Peter will continue that production so that this wonderful product won't be lost again.

Thanks for appreciating my review by the way.

mrkaboom wrote:great great post - any chance you could bring the Adventurebilt shirt into the mix lol -just kidding! I have the Wested and agree that its not that great. just feels too bulky for me. Ive ordered a Todds and am hopeful of an improvement.

MK

Thanks. It would have been nice to have an AB shirt here for comparison too but I don't think I will purchase one. I already have a NH to fill that kind of gap. I only got the Todd because it was a bargain in front of my eyes and I was in the condition to try it on before even deciding to buy it.

You ain't having my AB shirt!

Kt Templar wrote:You ain't having my AB shirt!

what size is it?

I wsnt serious about the $1000.

Since I was asked to chime in, I'll chime in...

The shirt I used as a basis was indeed worn by Harrison Ford on some of the Well of Souls shooting days. There were MANY shirts made for production. The details I retained from the screen-used shirt were:

placket width
front bands
pocket and flap dimensions
epaulette length and width
geometry of pockets/front bands/center opening
cuffs
button spacing
general proportions - shoulders, chest, length, sleeves, etc.

Most of the specs were very standard dress shirt specs. Placket, collar stand, button spacing. The cut was unusual, but I did find shirts in my closet with similar (but not in every way) cuts.

The detais I changed based on the Cairo scenes were the the geometry of the epaulette/front band/collar stand relationship, the collar point length, and the cuff plackets. With some tweaking, I managed to get everything to work out.

I sewed (personally) dozens of shirts, tweaking each time to work out the shapes. Dimensions are one thing - shapes are another. Finally I settled on the classic American straight collar pattern as the one that fell open the same way as the Cairo shirt.

I am very happy with the results, and other than changing the length, don't plan to mess with the pattern. As to the long sleeves, since the shirt will be worn under a jacket or rolled up, I figured it wasn't a big deal.

FABRIC: I am not certain that Noel Howard's fabric is not the correct weave. It's just that the way I've heard it described that way. It could very well be correct. I know my fabric is NOT the correct weave. The reports I've heard is that people like the fabric - this is the first negative assesment I have heard. I won't be changing it until I run out of my current stock, which won't be anytime soon. As I said - all reports I have heard is that the fabric is very comfortable and wrinkles up nicely.

Oh, and the "pleats" are sewn on bands, not actual pleats sewn into the shirt fronts and pockets. Confirmed on actual shirt and in film.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad you like the way it looks on you!

Todd

The fabric is indeed comfortable and feels nice but is not indy... that's all I have to complaint about, if you haven't heard an complaints before about that it's probably because most of your customers never had a Noel Howard shirt to compare it with. As I said I have seen and touched the screen used shirt and the material Noel used was practically identical both in colour and feel. When you decide to change your material into a more screen accurate one I will buy another one of these because I do love their look. The only problem for you (and for us) could be the price. I've heard that the NH material costs much more than usual cotton.

What you said about the collar makes sense, it's different from the other two I have (you can see it in the first picture), I haven't checked how accurate it is but I'll content myself with it for now. Do the collar and cuffs loose their stiffness by the way? I found them way too stiff but as I said, I haven't washed the shirt yet so I don't know if it's permanent or not.

I do love the look and the cut and I'm also very happy you replied in this thread. Can you tell us more about the Italian-made shirts if you can? How do you know they were Italians? Why were they subcontracted to some Italian factory/tailor? And why no one has heard of this from any source before? I am just very curious, the shirt has been focus of my interest for a long time now.

About the length... I don't know, I haven't tried them on my indy trousers yet but your shirt does appear to be longer than any other, at least the front is. Did people complain about it being too long or too short?

Todd, I love mine.. and think the fabric's great!

Randy

hey Erri,

thank you for posting this great comaparisson abouth the shirts. I always wanted to get a good Indy shirt, and now I'm really looking forward to get a Todd!

Yep. I'm sold.
That Todd's shirt seems like a bargain to me.
I just ordered my Large +

If I didn't like the fabric I wouldn't have ordered a second!

BreinederIndy wrote:hey Erri,

thank you for posting this great comaparisson abouth the shirts. I always wanted to get a good Indy shirt, and now I'm really looking forward to get a Todd!

Oh hi Breineder, nice to see you around my friend. I would say that for the price I paid and the look the Todd is quite a good choice... if you don't have any issue with the material and the colour you will surely love it.

Indiana Citroen wrote:If I didn't like the fabric I wouldn't have ordered a second!

If I did like the fabric I would have ordered a second

Unfortunately I really don't

oops! now I see what you mean. That structure looks quit odd to me. wested shirts don't have the right look to me and a NH is way to expensive for a regular use shirt for me.

When is Todd going to change his material?

Breineder, Todd (aka Puppetboy) said

Puppetboy wrote:I know my fabric is NOT the correct weave. The reports I've heard is that people like the fabric - this is the first negative assesment I have heard. I won't be changing it until I run out of my current stock, which won't be anytime soon.

sadly, it sounds very far yet. You might check out the Adventurebilt shirt but I have no idea how much that costs... or load yourself with patience and wait until Peter or Todd will change their products. In this hobby one needs a lot of patience
The rumor is that Peter will continue making the NH shirts but he also has higher priority projects before it... so again, lots of patience my friend

Erri, the texture of your shirt is... odd. I've had two Todd's [one was returned due to wrong sizing] and neither look anything like that.

Randy

Yeah, that Todd's shirt material in that centre photo IS really... ODD looking...
(I mean, I don't have mine - yet - to inspect it for myself... I merely commenting on what that photo shows...)

It's almost looks like a shirt collar made from a "woven" (or "quilted") paper towel material.
I don't know exactly what the material of Randy's shirt looks like, but I'm ALREADY hoping I get a shirt with material that looks more like HIS.

I guess we'll just see...

theinterchange wrote:Erri, the texture of your shirt is... odd. I've had two Todd's [one was returned due to wrong sizing] and neither look anything like that.

Randy

Yeah, I agree. I have two Todd's shirts (one first run Large and one first run XL) and neither have that texture. I even looked at the material under a magnifying glass and don't see it.

As for the fit of Todd's shirts, I love the cut too. I ordered an XL after I bought the L just to have a baggy shirt for everyday wear, but IMO the tapered cut of the large has a much more Indy-like appearance. Like Erri, I have extra-long arms and find that most standard sized long-sleeve shirts are too short, but Todd's size large fits me great.

I have to say I really like the way the NH shirt is cut at the shoulder however. The fact that the epaulettes don't drop over the shoulder gives it a much neater - more tailored - appearance.

Great information Erri. Thanks for all the work.

Scott

Amazing post, Erri. Thanks for zeroing in on all the details!

I love my Todd's except that the sleeves are too long on me so I end up rolling them up. I'm planning to bring my Todd's jacket to have the tailor fix the lining (which is bulging weirdly) and I'll also bring the shirt to have the sleeves altered, too.

So am I the only one with this kind of texture? Was I swindled?
Puppetboy chime in again!

By the way that texture appears only on the collar and the cuffs, you can't see it in any other part (check the pocket pictures and the rest)... both collar and cuffs are also quite stiff, are yours stiff too?

Not stiff at all. How recent is your shirt again? I'll take a couple of pics to show mine.

Randy

Thanks, the shirt is weeks old I think

Here they are.. I took one closeup of the collar in flash for detail.





The dark you see in the closeup flash photo is lint from a new pair of black socks I washed it with to do the bigrex color muting method.

Hope this helps!

Randy

Erri,

Well, that's two firsts for you. The first to complain about the fabric and the first to complain about the interfacing in the collar and cuffs.

What your camera has captured (and greatly exaggerated) is the interfacing in the collar and cuffs. A few washings and ironings and the tiny "dots" you see will disappear.

Todd

LOL there is a first time for everyone I hope it's also the last though.
Just throwing my reviews/impressions out there Puppetboy, nothing personal.

I'll wash it and iron it and see what happens... I'll get back with pictures very soon. Thanks for the pictures theinterchange

I have a big bunch of shirts here you can wash and iron for me too my friend!

I was trying to describe the colours of each of the shirts to give a more immediate feel.

AB I get 'Stone'
NH I get 'Biscuit'
Wested 'Oatmeal'
Todd 'Vanilla Ice cream and waffle'

(slightly tongue in cheek).

IndyGear Cereal™ is a part of a balanced breakfast.

Maybe Kellogs will add it to the line up...

http://www.kelloggs.com/promotions/indiana-jones/



Regard! Michaelson

Todd 'Vanilla Ice cream and waffle'

I'll have to use that for the official color description.

LOL there is a first time for everyone I hope it's also the last though.
Just throwing my reviews/impressions out there Puppetboy, nothing personal.

I sincerely need to apologize to you, my response sounded way too harsh. I need to up my meds.

I did go back and look through a pile of collars, and there is some slight variation on the visibility of the interfacing, probably due to varying heat during the fusing process. I will speak with the factory about this. Regardless, it should fade with wear.

Erri wrote:Thanks for the pictures theinterchange

Welcome you are Erri.

Randy

Puppetboy wrote: I will speak with the factory about this. Regardless, it should fade with wear.

I do hope so and thanks for your replies. I let you know how it goes with getting rid of it

Puppetboy wrote:I did go back and look through a pile of collars, and there is some slight variation on the visibility of the interfacing, probably due to varying heat during the fusing process. I will speak with the factory about this. Regardless, it should fade with wear.

Oh MAN!
I just ordered my shirt on Wednesday night! I sincerely hope one of those more... "textured" collars didn't "go out in the mail" mere minutes (or hours) before Todd went and took a look through that stack of collars!
Either THAT, OR I sure hope I have theinterchange's "luck of the draw".

I am glad afterall that I brought this up... otherwise Puppetboy would have sold many more before this issue could be noticed. I will keep all of you, my dear readers, updated if these bumps do or do not go away after a wash and an ironing

... Kt I'll iron your shirts when I visit you but it will cost you dearly, food, petrol, accomodation, you name it

Cheeky, freeloadin' students!

LONG LIVE FREELOADERS!

i have just gotten my todds shirt a week ago and i think it looks awesome