'Off The Shoulder'

Raider Of The Lost Ark · Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:16 am

Can anyone post pictures showing how the Raiders jacket slips 'off the shoulder' compared to say the LC jacket? I've read people talking about this but am unsure if this is a literal description (where the front is 'higher up' than than the back) or an 'illusion' created by the specific cut / seams of the jacket.

Thanks!

Raider

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:12 am

Have you looked at the description in the #000/888 thread?
The CS jacket sits square on the shoulder with the shoulder seam of the jacket centered on he shoulder . If you raise your arms over your head and place them back down it falls back in place.
The TN Raiders jacket wants to fall back off the shoulder. It won't stay there. If you raise your ams and place them back down it will stay to the back, not return to your shoulder properly.

You can see this same effect throughout the movie. It's because of the construction of the Raider jacket and be back and rear lengths being almost equal. TN can explain it better than I.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:03 pm

Raider Of The Lost Ark wrote:Can anyone post pictures showing how the Raiders jacket slips 'off the shoulder' compared to say the LC jacket? I've read people talking about this but am unsure if this is a literal description (where the front is 'higher up' than than the back) or an 'illusion' created by the specific cut / seams of the jacket.

Thanks!

Raider

Thanks for making me look at this closely, Raider. I think this gives a nice comparison:

In the Raiders' case, the jacket naturally sits with the collar away from the neck. In the LC case the jacket sits close to the neck, as you might expect a jacket to. I believe that all of the jackets in the first three movies has a tendency to sit off shoulder a bit, but the Raiders' jacket is more dramatic. You make a good point about the seam, however, because the TOD jacket has the most off-shoulder seam by the time you get the arm. In fact, if you look at the LC screenshot, the shoulder seam is off by the time it gets to the arm. On the other hand, you can find many many images where the Raiders' jacket seam lines up ok. The jacket being "off the shoulder" explains why it appears long in some scenes and shorter in others (it's not just because different jackets are used, and not just body position and camera angles; it's that the jacket is pulled forward).

A side effect of riding off the shoulders that the jacket hangs open with the zippers parallel. If you notice, in LC, and more so CS, the zippers are closer at the top and flare out as they go down.

It is my belief, that the Raiders' jacket is cut with the collar back deep. In other words, if you line up the shoulder seam, the collar isn't really near the neck. I think this is why the collar seems so long sometimes.

I think this picture illustrates it best. (The ever popular cobra pic too http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/ ... ts/051.jpg )

Yes, in both, the jacket and his body contorted, but I know I don't own an Indy jacket that I can pull far enough forward to have that shoulder seam line up so forward on my body.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:52 pm

With the Raiders, the whole jacket really falls back. The LC the end of the shoulder may look like it falls to the rear but the other end (neck end) of the shoulder seam stays centered. The CS just pretty much stays on the shoulder as you'd expect.

The ToD is different, it's as if the jacket rear yoke panel was designed that way. It appears to be cut so the top seam of the back yoke actually tapers down from the neck end. It doesn't follow the top of the shoulder to the arm. It's hard to describe if you don't have a ToD to look at.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:08 pm

RCSignals wrote:With the Raiders, the whole jacket really falls back. The LC the end of the shoulder may look like it falls to the rear but the other end (neck end) of the shoulder seam stays centered. The CS just pretty much stays on the shoulder as you'd expect.

The ToD is different, it's as if the jacket rear yoke panel was designed that way. It appears to be cut so the top seam of the back yoke actually tapers down from the neck end. It doesn't follow the top of the shoulder to the arm. It's hard to describe if you don't have a ToD to look at.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:21 pm

Haha. Look at that big seam running through the pillar in the background.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:22 pm

Here's a collar comparison of my shrunken lamb Nowak TN-1 Raiders and my Wested goatskin Raiders. The Nowak has the quirky Raiders off-the-shoulder effect to it where the Wested drapes off the shoulders like you would expect a standard jacket to.

Post by **Holt** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:29 pm

PERFECT example!

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:14 pm

Here's another example of the Temple shoulder seam that I borrowed from Agent5's excellent post on another forum:

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:31 pm

Is that Ford in the above TOD grab?

Post by **Holt** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:32 pm

dang! that jacket looks grey.. almost like a well worn goat from wested....

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:04 pm

Raider S wrote:Is that Ford in the above TOD grab?

As far as I know, it is. It's from a great post about the ToD jacket from Agent5. Maybe he can tell us more about the picture?

At any rate, you can see how the shoulder seam was sewn to run off the shoulder, tapering more toward the yoke seam.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:42 pm

Rick, thanks for a great demonstration of the two jackets!

Raider Of The Lost Ark · Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:18 am

Thanks binkmeisterRick, that is what I was after! Do you know why the Wested does not 'do' it and the TN does? I've been trying all sorts of 'contorsions' in my Wested to see if it does it and have some to the conclusion it doesn't

however I don't know why

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:59 am

Glad to help, gents.

The reason why the Nowak Raiders falls off the shoulders while the Wested doesn't is simply because of the pattern. Folks have and will continue to argue and debate this, but they are two very different jackets in one major way. Wested makes great jackets, but the Westeds repros we see have one thing in common — they are built to fit like a jacket should. What I mean by that is that over time the pattern has been tweaked with (largely due to customer demand over the years) and the jackets are designed to fit and drape off your shoulders as you would expect a well-made jacket to. It's comfortable and the collar comes up to your neck. Few would actually buy a new jacket this way. They'd try it on and think, "This isn't right. This jacket is made wrong because it doesn't fit quite right. It wants to fall off my shoulders. It must be a poorly made jacket." They'd move on until they found a jacket which fit the shoulders properly, as a Wested currently does. This is the crux of the matter.

Tony's TN-1, however, is unique, because when he received the original jacket to copy, he did just that, he copied it, quirks, flaws, and all. The average jacket maker might look at such a jacket and think, "This isn't how a jacket should fit," and proceed to correct fundamental flaws in order to produce a reproduction that fits as one would expect a well made jacket to. The biggest thing to remember is that the original Raiders jacket was a costume piece. As is common in the movie business, they made a bunch of jackets and sent them on their way. They were never designed to survive past production, so it was no big deal if some jackets were "imperfect" as far as construction details go. But instead of correcting the inherent flaws in the jacket he had to work from, Tony carefully studied them and recreated those flaws — including how the collar fell back —the only exception being that he improved the internal workmanship of the jacket so it could stand up to more real world abuse.

So, again, the reason why Tony's jacket "does it" while the Wested "doesn't" is due solely to the patterns used in making the jackets.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:26 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:
So, again, the reason why Tony's jacket "does it" while the Wested "doesn't" is due solely to the patterns used in making the jackets.

Also, of course, the on screen jackets may vary to the degree in which they do this. The initial Raven bar jacket seems to be more proper than say, the initial Hawaii jacket. Although, I gotta say, I think in some scenes, Ford is wearing the jacket off the shoulders on purpose because it's hot!!

My Wested wears off the shoulders ok (ie. I can wear it off the shoulders and it stays in place, not that it necessarily naturally falls there). My TN CS definitely prefers not to be worn off the shoulders.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:25 pm

Baldwyn wrote: Also, of course, the on screen jackets may vary to the degree in which they do this. The initial Raven bar jacket seems to be more proper than say, the initial Hawaii jacket.

Exactly. They cranked out a number of jackets and each jacket had its own degree of character. It's the same with the fedora; there were a number of hats used and depending on a number of variables throughout the shoot, each hat had its own character, otherwise we would only be asking for one bash!

VP · Post by VP » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:03 am

SO does the "Holt collar" affect the look of a Wested so that it makes it look more like the Nowaks?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:49 am

I can't help but feel that the off the shoulder thing only applies to the hawai jacket Nowak said he copied. Because in the rest of raiders it seems to fit just like Binks wested. ( Which really looks good btw !!)

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:08 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:I can't help but feel that the off the shoulder thing only applies to the hawai jacket Nowak said he copied. Because in the rest of raiders it seems to fit just like Binks wested. ( Which really looks good btw !!)

I think I agree, in fact, I think Harrison could have worn the jacket off the shoulder in Hawaii because it was hot, but I dunno.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:09 pm

Funny thing is I've rarely worn that Wested since I got the Nowak. The sleeves on the Wested have gotten to short for me.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:40 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:I can't help but feel that the off the shoulder thing only applies to the hawai jacket Nowak said he copied. Because in the rest of raiders it seems to fit just like Binks wested. ( Which really looks good btw !!)

'off the shoulder' shows throughout the movie, not just the Hawaii scene

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:43 pm

Baldwyn wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:I can't help but feel that the off the shoulder thing only applies to the hawai jacket Nowak said he copied. Because in the rest of raiders it seems to fit just like Binks wested. ( Which really looks good btw !!)
I think I agree, in fact, I think Harrison could have worn the jacket off the shoulder in Hawaii because it was hot, but I dunno.

If the jacket didn't naturally sit off the shoulder, that would make sense. Fact is the jacket does naturally fall to the back off the shoulder, you don't have to make it, it isn't easy keeping it on the shoulder properly if that's where you want it.

moses · Post by **moses** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:09 pm

Indy very noticeable shrugs the jacket back onto his shoulders before taking the idol. And that's a studio shot, so not necessarily the same jacket as in Hawaii.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:15 pm

moses wrote:Indy very noticeable shrugs the jacket back onto his shoulders before taking the idol. And that's a studio shot, so not necessarily the same jacket as in Hawaii.

Possibly a different jacket, but certainly having to shrug it back on the shoulder shows it falls of the shoulder

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:23 pm

Doesn't prove anything. You've probably forgotten the countless times you've had to shrug your shoulders to get a bit more room when getting stuff out of a shopping cart or something when wearing an Indy jacket.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:54 pm

Kt Templar wrote:Doesn't prove anything. You've probably forgotten the countless times you've had to shrug your shoulders to get a bit more room when getting stuff out of a shopping cart or something when wearing an Indy jacket.

I don't usually have to shrug any jacket back on my shoulders.
to me it does show something, that more than one jacket had this characteristic.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:43 pm

that sums it up fairly nicely NB

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:24 pm

Well said, NB. And this isn't a "ooo, I have one" type of comment, but it is hard to describe unless you have worn one. Once you have, like NB said, you can look and see the same type of thing (the jacket falling off the shoulders) in Ford's jacket that you have experienced with your own. Most jackets want to 'fall' forward, like a Crystal Skull jacket. The Raiders wants to 'fall' back.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:21 pm

One quick observation about my own Wested, and also a support of the fact that every jacket is unique;
My Wested tends to slide back, but not in the same way as the Raiders movie jackets. Rather than going off the shoulder and the collar sort of spreading - the collar falls back and closes more along the side. The shoulder shift is barely noticeable, but the bottom front crawls up above my belt line. And that's when it's open. When closed, it's even worse of a back slide.

And about the "shrug"; I never saw that as getting the shoulders back up. He clearly shifts the shoulders, raises his arms and extends them. This is something I do (and I observe man people do, probably without thinking) when they need to be sure that they have totally full freedom of movement. Watch a solo pianist in a tux about to play. He/she will do the same thing before starting to play. This also causes the cuffs of the jacket and shirt to pull clear of the hands, allowing unhindered dexterity for more... delicate... manuevers.

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:44 am

I believe it has to be experienced to totally get it. I hope to make it to Tony's shop and figure it out once and for all sometime in the future!

I think I get confused because I think all my Indy jackets (including my CS!) fall "off the shoulder." My CS looks absolutely ridiculous pulled forward (and then the front is much longer than the back).

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:03 am

Chewbacca Jones wrote:One quick observation about my own Wested, and also a support of the fact that every jacket is unique;
My Wested tends to slide back, but not in the same way as the Raiders movie jackets. Rather than going off the shoulder and the collar sort of spreading - the collar falls back and closes more along the side. The shoulder shift is barely noticeable, but the bottom front crawls up above my belt line. And that's when it's open. When closed, it's even worse of a back slide.

And about the "shrug"; I never saw that as getting the shoulders back up. He clearly shifts the shoulders, raises his arms and extends them. This is something I do (and I observe man people do, probably without thinking) when they need to be sure that they have totally full freedom of movement. Watch a solo pianist in a tux about to play. He/she will do the same thing before starting to play. This also causes the cuffs of the jacket and shirt to pull clear of the hands, allowing unhindered dexterity for more... delicate... manuevers.

Yes what you are describing is different, and maybe unique to your jacket.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:16 pm

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:18 pm

Yah that definatley does not fall off the shoulder ! Thanks KT!!!

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:24 pm

Dutch ,maybe you and KT need to start a new thread........."ON the Shoulder".......

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:35 pm

Off topic but it would appear that these two jackets are likely one and the same:

- Mac

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:39 pm

Kt Templar wrote:

Proves that it can be made to sit on the shoulder, in these two photos. We know that it can be made to, especially zipped up.
It won't stay there though.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:44 pm

For the sake of devil's advocate, the "on the shoulder" pics show the jacket zipped up. The pictures I took of my jackets were unzipped. Zipping my TN-1 up to the same point (and even popping the collar up to try to match the second grab) brings the collar closer to the back of the neck. Regardless, I'm with Chewie. These jackets were thrown together and sent out the door, so each one is going to have its own unique character to it in spots.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:46 pm

Mac wrote:Off topic but it would appear that these two jackets are likely one and the same:

- Mac

Seems to be. It's also the jacket with two different collar ends

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:51 pm

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:53 pm

RCSignals wrote:It's also the jacket with two different collar ends

Is it really?

- Mac

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:59 pm

Its still only the vague image of the hawaii jacket in the movie that does that as the other jackets that ARE visible in the move don't seem to do that.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:03 pm

Kt Templar wrote:

falling off the shoulder there, even though he's leaning forward

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:05 pm

Mac wrote:
RCSignals wrote:It's also the jacket with two different collar ends

Is it really?

- Mac

I think so. Look closely at the previous photos. The right collar end is a different shape than the left collar end, which is more blunt.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:08 pm

Ohw ! I see what you're getting at, All this time I thought it was falling back but you mean off the shoulders like over the upper arms ?

But looking back at binks pics and the movie shots it doesn't match up the shoulder on the nowak seems to just be really big but it droops over even more than the movie jacket...

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:11 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:Ohw ! I see what you're getting at, All this time I thought it was falling back but you mean off the shoulders like over the upper arms ?

You're starting to see it. 'off the shoulders'

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:12 pm

RCSignals wrote:The right collar end is a different shape than the left collar end, which is more blunt.

If you're referring to the B&W Raven Bar photo, I believe that is an optical illusion based on perspective. Try turning the collar of a jacket and you can duplicate it easily.

- Mac

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:21 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:.......

But looking back at binks pics and the movie shots it doesn't match up the shoulder on the nowak seems to just be really big but it droops over even more than the movie jacket...

....than the one jacket but there is more than one jacket that appears in the movie. Shoulder droop of the jacket isn't new exactly. The shoulder fit on that one is almost too snug.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:23 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:.......

But looking back at binks pics and the movie shots it doesn't match up the shoulder on the nowak seems to just be really big but it droops over even more than the movie jacket...
....than the one jacket but there is more than one jacket that appears in the movie. Shoulder droop of the jacket isn't new exactly. The shoulder fit on that one is almost too snug.

Could you show me a pic where it does that then?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:25 pm

Mac wrote:
RCSignals wrote:The right collar end is a different shape than the left collar end, which is more blunt.
If you're referring to the B&W Raven Bar photo, I believe that is an optical illusion based on perspective. Try turning the collar of a jacket and you can duplicate it easily.

- Mac

Possible. I think this is more than illusion though.
The illusion does show up when it appears the right end is pointed I'll give you that, but it isn't the difference I'm referring to.