Club Obi Wan

I keep seeing this issue pop up from time to time that a Morgan bullwhip is no longer made by David Morgan. And for some on this board that is a pretty big deal. I'm curious as to why? Most consumer goods are no longer made by their namesake. And if Will is braiding, it is a Morgan bullwhip. Is it not enough that the master has given his blessing to those under him? If it's good enough for him, why not "us"? SA aside, it's still in the lineage is it not? Just curious.

hollywood1340 wrote:I keep seeing this issue pop up from time to time that a Morgan bullwhip is no longer made by David Morgan. And for some on this board that is a pretty big deal. I'm curious as to why? Most consumer goods are no longer made by their namesake. And if Will is braiding, it is a Morgan bullwhip. Is it not enough that the master has given his blessing to those under him? If it's good enough for him, why not "us"? SA aside, it's still in the lineage is it not? Just curious.

Yeah. It is still his company, he is still there every day, and he trained the employee(s) braiding the whips, which are all made to his spec. I don't see the issue. I mean, they might look different than a whip made in the 80's or 90's, but IMHO that is a different issue. (like how Westeds have changed over time)

my DM was not braided by him, but he did cut and tie the knots. he put his name on it so i still believe it to be a David Morgan Bullwhip.......it's still the real mccoy in my eyes.

In my opinion.... I wouldn't get a DM now because to me they aren't DMs anymore anyway. I believe a bullwhip is different than any other "consumer product" that isn't made by its namesake. Sure Magnoli doesn't make his shirts himself, but a shirt is a shirt. A bullwhip is different according to who makes it. The style and technique of the braider is a huge factor in how the whip turns out at the end. If Will is going to make whips, that's fine. But it's not a David Morgan whip - it's a Will Morgan whip. If David wants to cut the strands that's fine... but he's not braiding them, so it's not really made by him - it's just prepared by him.

I think this is a really good extended metaphor for the situation. If Leonardo Da Vinci came back to life and started mixing paint batches for his relatives to paint with, and then those paintings were sold as "LDV" paintings, I wouldn't buy them. Sure he mixed the paint, and heck, he may have even mounted the painting into the frame, but he didn't do the hard work that makes the painting the artwork that it is.

Shane

all this speculation hinges on how much tutolage has been passed down from the master and how adament he is in keeping things per his design.

if david morgan was very persistent on doing things the way he has done them, then i would say that the DM is still a DM as will or whoever the craftsmen is, is just acting as an extension of dave morgan's craftsmenship.

if david morgan just gave his craftsmen the 'basics' and allowed them to indulge themselves, then i agree with you shane

I think it's a combination of overall design and the individual components that make a DM a DM, not just the braiding. I imagine David braided each whip a little differently even when he did do it himself, which to me means it may just as well have been done by someone else with equally good braiding skills. Sure, it's a nice touch to think that the whip was constructed by its designer, but that's just a bonus. It is more the knowledge that he controls the construction of a whip, ensuring it adheres to his design ideals that make it a DM for me.

So far from my perspective, this seems to really hinge around the price tag for the whip. I have to agree with Shane, anyone can make a whip in the footsteps of the original person, but the heart and soul of the product will be different. I think what bothers alot of people is that they are still paying for the mystique and name without the namesake actually making it. I still own one and love it, but you can certainly tell there are some differences in the production when compared to earlier ones (2000's and such). Just my opinion...


Crack On!
Allen

Indiana County Jr. wrote:anyone can make a whip in the footsteps of the original person, but the heart and soul of the product will be different

Just my opinion of course, but I suspect perceivable differences in a whip's heart and soul could exist as equally in other whips constructed by the original maker as in those constructed by another person accurately following their footsteps.

I owe a 12ft. David Morgan a few years ago and I was very proud to have a whip which was made by the same hands the real Indiana Jones whips where made from. This was the very speccial thing on it (apart the fact that his whips where just great). That was even worth the little extra money.
Nowadays I personaly would never ever buy a new David Morgan whip which wasn't even made by himself, especcialy becouse of the current DM prices which are quit high.

David Morgan was "the master" of the american style bullwhip, which he designed and made many years. Back in the old days there where not many arround who made Indiana Jones whips, especcialy in that quallity. Seeing him stepping away from whipmaking was, looking at his age, not surprising but in some way made feel sad about it. He is at least a big chapter of whip history

I don’t know if I’d call it a big deal per say, The Company is backlogged with orders so the David Morgan whips are still very popular.

In the history of whip making it has never been uncommon for a master whip maker to have additional plaiters working for them (often family members), producing whips under a company name. But with that said, It’s David Morgan himself who is the one with 30+ years of whip making knowledge and experience, He’s the one who wrote the books on the subject and he’s pretty much the one who designed the 450 series whip and laid the ground work for a lot of American whip makers today. To many that means something and its regrettable that he can no longer make those whips he is famous for creating.

I’m certainty not trying to take anything away from the current team of whip makers at David Morgan. The quality of work coming out of their shop is some of the best they have done in years. Yes, They where trained by David, the whip is still the same basic design and linage is there, but at the same time it’s still not quite the same.

I think that if their current bullwhips had been more competitively priced you wouldn’t see the animosity towards them that you sometimes do, but now you are paying the premium price for the David Morgan company name, when you have other expert whip makers (some of them who have also spent time working along side of David Morgan) making in essence the same whip for half the price, it makes you take notice. Personally I would not hesitate to buy another David Morgan whip made by Will, Alex or Meagan, if their prices where more along the lines of what other whip makers charge, but I can’t justify that high of a price for a 12plait bullwhip made by someone else at least not yet.

For others I think it boils down to authenticity, I think Shane’s analogy is very accurate there. If you insist upon paying pay top dollar for a Picasso, it needs to be done by Picasso not just signed by him. Still others could care less who makes it, as long as it looks right but there are always subtle differeince from artist to artist/whipmaker to whipmaker. From a fans point of view, It’s also a bit extra special to have a whip, that was made by the same person who made them for Indiana Jones, or Zorro, etc. even more so then saying it was made "by the same company". It makes you more a part of that history and connects you on a more personal level then the latter, which is very rare today in a market filled with mass produced goods.

That’s my 2 cents anyway.

Dan

I'd chime in with my stated opinion but I couldn't say it any better than Shane and Dan. I'm sure they're still incredible whips but if I was to get a DM I'd want it plaited by him. Great conversation topic, by the way.

Happy cracking,

Ryan

As spoken of on other threads, has "Indy Style" supplanted "David Morgan" when it comes to the whips we fans acquire? For only a few now an afford a true David Morgan bullwhip, but we have excellent Indy Style whips out there.

Shane and Dan hit the nail on the head for me. The price is the key factor for me. If I'm going to pay that much money, I want it done by the man himself, even if the quality is no better or worse per se. It just gives you that extra bit of confidence that you didn't pay that premium price for no good reason.

I want a David Morgan whip really bad, but I am having a real hard time justifying the price, but if it was a whip made by David himself, that would ease the pain a little as it would add that little extra bit of mystique even if the quality is basically the same.

I dunno, there's valid points on both sides of this one for sure.

Kenton

Indiana Country Jr., BreinederIndy, and BullWhipBorton all are correct INMHO. The price point of a Morgan whip is approx. double the price point of these vendors' whips: Bernardo del Carpio, Joe Strain, Louie Foxx, and Paul Nolan. All of these vendors produce an extremely SA Indy whip. If one was to purchase a new David Morgan whip today you will get a an extremely SA whip made by Will, Alex, or Meagan but you will not recieve a whip made by David Morgan!!


Edit: I am sure I forgot a few excellent Indy whipmakers and to you all I am sorry.

From what I understand, it's also no longer SA

hollywood1340 wrote:From what I understand, it's also no longer SA

A member here told me , " A long time a go", on a different forum even if I was to order a DM whip at the time it would not be SA as DM had made changes/improvements to his original design.

I understand that DM is the the man that provided the whip, but he no longer "makes" the whip and the cost of his whip is not in line with several other vendors.

It really is a shame that David no longer makes the whips himself, but given his age it's understandable. If you saw that news feature on him last year, you can see how crooked his fingers are from decades of braiding. The escalating price tag is indeed a valid factor in purchasing a DM bullwhip. Not saying that the quality is not worth it, but now it seems like a status symbol, like owning a Lamborghini or Porsche. I remember back when Morgan used to take special order requests, and several people actually got him to make their Indy whips with the correct handle length / ring knot position of the movie bullwhips. But the special order period was short-lived, as Morgan got frustrated at being asked to revise his carefully-evolved style. I took advantage of it and requested a shorter handle grip for my last bullwhip. This was right before he quit doing the custom stuff, but strangely he didn't seem to mind. Probably because it made the whip stronger than the SA ring knot position at the very end of the spike.

As spoken of on other threads, has "Indy Style" supplanted "David Morgan" when it comes to the whips we fans acquire? For only a few now an afford a true David Morgan bullwhip, but we have excellent Indy Style whips out there.

First, just to be clear so that we are all on the same page, An ”Indy style” whip is just a very broad term used to discribe a bullwhip with a short plaited handle (usually around 8 inch long) that is based loosly on the whips used in the Indiana Jones movies. Most whip makers today make their own version of an “Indy Style” whip; some are just made more closely to the original film used bullwhips then others.

Second, I don’t think those have supplanted David Morgan Co. bullwhips. There are still a lot of Indiana Jones fans buying Morgan bullwhips today. So much so the company is backed up for months on orders and thats now with two or three whipmakers turning them out. Realistically Club Obi-Wan only voices the opinions of a small number of fans (though highly informed) and whip enthusiasts, compared to the whole. However, with that said I don’t know of many people here that wouldn’t want a new David Morgan Co. bullwhip if the opportunity arose or if the price was right. Today we are just fortunate to have a much wider variety of Indy whips available to satisfy not only those wanting a whip that just looks close enough, but also those who want their whip to look just like a whip used in a particular scene.

From what I understand, it's also no longer SA

That is somewhat debatable. Even though the current 450 series bullwhips are a bit different then the original bullwhips used in the first 3 films. Morgan Co. did provide stunt “whips” that where used onscreen in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Although they where made with high strength Tec-line running though them, the whips themselves still look the same as the regular bullwhips they currently offer.

OK here's my two cents' on this, not that it will change anyone's mind, but it may give a bit of perspective to the whole thing.

Back in the day in Australia, most whipmaking shops were known under the name of the owner, the Boss man. It was frequent to see the Boss cutting out the sets and the plaiters doing the handwork. These might spend their entire lives plaiting, but never knowing how to cut out a whip, because in those difficult days, it was the owner's way of keeping a control over the production and reducing the chances of an employee becoming a competitor. These whips were still known as a such-and-such whip, yet it wasn't plaited by the Boss man himself.

Yes everyone puts their whips together differently, but I should think that in the case of a family-run business, the son or whomever else, understands that the continuity of the product is more important that any individual fame or recognition; after all, if Will or anyone else in there is working making whips, it's because of David.

So, you can choose to prefer the whips David has made himself, there is certainly a sentimental charm to this, but my guess is there probably isn't as much difference in terms of quality between the whips David made himself and those that are being made now as some may like to believe. I'm sure if he felt they were not up to snuff, he wouldn't let them out of the shop. Having said this, if you do have a whip made by David himself, do keep it, after all, it is an icon.

Like I said, my two cents.

I don't know if this is of any interest to anyone, but I believe this is video of the last complete bullwhip that david morgan made start to finish being cracked, click the link below to see the video:

http://bullwhips.org/?p=1620

it's at the bottom of the page that I linked to.

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

It's not unusual in small craft businesses to see one or two generations piggy-back on the reputation of a star. But it's equally likely that standards are maintained and that the product improves as dedicated craftspersons in each succeeding generation pass on what they have added to the craft. An individual crafter will also evolve their technique and style over time, pushing boundaries artistically and technically. The great ones can move both forward together, but handicraft remains what David Pye called the "workmanship of risk", since exact duplication is extremely difficult and perhaps not desireable. To get exactly the same product every time you add jigs and mechanisms to reproduce the original and move towards the "workmanship of certainty", the ultimate expression of which is the production line.

The crafter will change materials, proportions, design, construction steps, etc. as they move towards their own ideal - whether of style or performance - and will chafe at being asked to recreate their own earlier work. (Does anyone remember Joni Mitchell, on one of her live albums, commenting that no-one ever said to Van Gogh "Paint 'Starry Night' again, man!"?)

It's like the fellow who had a garage sale. One of the items he was selling was a chair he had made. A woman asked him what it would cost and he told her $50. She was thrilled. The chair was just what she wanted for her dining room. "How much would it be for a set of 8 chairs just like it?" she asked. He replied that he'd make her 7 more for $1,400. When she asked why they wouldn't cost $50 each like the first one, he told her "I had fun making that one!"

Others here are more qualified than I am to comment on the quality and performance of 2nd generation Morgan whips, but if they maintain a high level of beauty and utility then the market will ultimately determine how they can be priced. Other makers may choose to recreate an "Indy" whip as a static artifact, and that's fine and there will clearly be a market for it at whatever price point the quality of workmanship and materials commands. For the consumer the critical points - SA, original maker, hero vs. stunt, working vs. non-working - will be a matter of individual preference, and some will decide that they can do it better themselves, or maybe make a living at it. For the rest of us it's really an embarrassment of riches - so many to choose from, so little discretionary income...

LJ

I still don't agree that the "2nd generation" whips are lesser in any way.

David is still there. He is still in the store, he taught the people making the whips, he looks at the whips being made, he handles them and cracks them. Now also many of the people (e.g. Meagan) have been making whips or helping make them alongside David for many years.

It isn't like he retired to Florida and sold the store off to someone who is making them from a book of instructions and calling them a DM whip.

I agree on the point about prices - and you could say the same about Steve and his hats, and the reason he increased the price was to dampen demand.

Now consider Louie -- he learned a lot from David and makes whips using his techniques, using supplies from David, that handle great and look very SA as well, and they are priced right. I wouldn't call them a DM but they are pretty darned close.

whipwarrior wrote:I remember back when Morgan used to take special order requests, and several people actually got him to make their Indy whips with the correct handle length / ring knot position of the movie bullwhips. But the special order period was short-lived, as Morgan got frustrated at being asked to revise his carefully-evolved style. I took advantage of it and requested a shorter handle grip for my last bullwhip. This was right before he quit doing the custom stuff, but strangely he didn't seem to mind. Probably because it made the whip stronger than the SA ring knot position at the very end of the spike.

Here is what the DM site says "The butt foundation, an 8 inch spike, has remained constant, but the knot, originally 7 - 8 inches from the end, has been moved closer to the end. This has given the impression that the "handle" has been made shorter, although the end stiffened by the spike is unchanged. The knot, once about 8 inches from the butt, was occasionally placed where the thong was starting to bend. Deterioration of the knot was never noted, but it was felt that keeping this knot on the stiff part would be an improvement, so it was moved to 6 - 7 inches from the butt. Durability and longevity have proven good. "

Another thing for people to keep in mind, David's business is not all about whips. Go to his website, and you either have to search for whips or select Leather Goods, Braided Goods, and then find the link to whips.

Also for the record, on David's website the whips are described as "Hand crafted at David Morgan."

These are just observations, not really a point in any direction other than that they're very honest and upfront about what they do.

ANZAC_1915 wrote:I still don't agree that the "2nd generation" whips are lesser in any way.

I don't think we're saying the new ones are "lesser," and they're probably not (though I've been less than impressed with the ones I've used but that may be because of any number of things), but rather that they're just not the same as the ones David himself made. I'm sure Will and Meagan make fine whips. After all, they were taught by David Morgan - but they're still "WM" whips and "MM" whips. Not DM whips. Even if he supervises it, it's not going to be made the same way he makes them. Granted it will be VERY close, but so is a Del Carpio for that matter.

To me it doesn't matter who makes it or where they make it, or if King Arthur himself comes out and gives it his royal blessing. If David Morgan didn't make it, it's just not a David Morgan whip to me. It's somebody else's whip made in David Morgan's style, and to his specs, but he still didn't make it.

Shane

This seems like the argument over what is cannon. And for some interesting reason, the fans seem to think they are the one who determine it, as opposed to the creator. Of course it's always a very vocal minority, but I do find this train of thought interesting. Independent thought regardless of the facts. Nothing good or bad about it, I just find it....interesting. Eh, to each their own.

WHy would most people buy an AB? Becuase it was made by the same hands that made Harrison's hat. I know that was a factor when I purchased my AB. Aside from the fact that these hats are built like tanks, they are made by the same hands that made the film hats. If Steve took on another apprentice (highly unlikely, but lets say so for arguments sake) and the apprentice took over when Steve retired I guarantee that orders will slow dramatically. Why is it any different with a DM? The only way I'd buy a DM now is if it was one braided by David himself, meaning I'd have to get a used one. I don't mind, becuase it was made by the master himself. But paying DM prices for a whip not made by David Morgan is absurd, in my opinion.

Dave

ANZAC_1915 wrote:I agree on the point about prices - and you could say the same about Steve and his hats, and the reason he increased the price was to dampen demand.

You mean it wasn't to make a little more money? lol... sorry...

Good call Shane. I'm sure these whips are still some of the absolute best whips out there but they are not made by David Morgan. Louie Foxx has received some input from Morgan, and the whip I have has been critiqued by DM and even cracked by DM but I definitely would call it a Louie Foxx whip - which is a great thing in my opinion. I'd love to have any "Morgan" whip. But I'd really love to have a DM made by the man himself - and then it would mainly only be for the nostalgia of it. In my opinion I think it is a great idea to know who the actual person is who made any whip I own. That person should get the credit for the craftsmanship. But again, that is just me. I'm mainly interested in a good quality whip that will work great and last a lifetime.

Ryan

bluzharp wrote:

ANZAC_1915 wrote:I agree on the point about prices - and you could say the same about Steve and his hats, and the reason he increased the price was to dampen demand.

You mean it wasn't to make a little more money? lol... sorry...

Even if it was, whats wrong with that? He still offers us a member discount. He charges everyone else that price becuase they want a hat made by "the guy who amde the hats for the movie." They probably will never wear the #### thing either. How is Steve's price any different than DM? DM charges a crazy amount of money for a whip that isn't even made by him. That is wrong. But, I don't have to buy one, now do I?

Dave

I'm gonna have to back Shane up on this one. The LDV example he used describes the discussion at hand PERFECTLY. I was fortunate enough to get a DM whip from when David himself was braiding them. I got mine used, and still paid a pretty penny because like others here have said, I wanted my whip braided by the same hands that braided the Indiana Jones whips. I could have bought 2 brand new whips from other makers for what I paid for my DM. The point is that even though David has trained others to make whips to his specifications, it should not be called a David Morgan whip. As others have said, it should be called a Will Morgan whip. If they want to keep the David Morgan name, they could at least call it The David Morgan Co. or something. I just prefer having my Indy gear made by the same hands that made the gear for the films.

Kyle

No offence to Shane, but I believe the artist comparison is akin to comparing apples with oranges. It would have been very hard to find an assistant/student of Da Vinci who could produce his unique works because each one is a direct result of his brain's creativity - hence the importance of Da Vinci in the constructing of each piece. When David Morgan was braiding, he was simply in the business of repeatedly putting together copies of his own well designed item - each one being a duplicated tool not a unique work of art. Any competent and well trained person under his strict guidance could have reproduced the whips to the same standard. So, I believe it is the overseeing of the design, quality and construction process of these whips which make them David Morgans. A Dyson constructed by James Dyson might be worth a lot of money, but it is no more a Dyson than one made according to his design and construction processes in the factory. Similarly, an Armani suit is still an Armani suit even if Giorgio didn't apply the stitches himself. JMHO, of course.

I'm in a hotel room in Minnesota and I"m bored, so I'm kinda poking the bees nest with a stick here but...

Master Glass Blower Dale Chihuly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Chihuly) hasn't made his glass art in years (since 1979), his students do it for him....and I'm assuming his art sells for more now that it did while he was still making it 30 years ago. His work can be seen around the world, if you've ever been in the Belagio hotel in Vegas and looked up you've seen his work.

Why can't a morgan whip be like a Chihuly sculpture???

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

My guess is because he's never created something that hangs on the belt of one of cinema's greatest hero's and followed by a group of people dedicated to being "SA"

Satipo wrote:No offence to Shane, but I believe the artist comparison is akin to comparing apples with oranges. It would have been very hard to find an assistant/student of Da Vinci who could produce his unique works because each one is a direct result of his brain's creativity - hence the importance of Da Vinci in the constructing of each piece. When David Morgan was braiding, he was simply in the business of repeatedly putting together copies of his own well designed item - each one being a duplicated tool not a unique work of art.

I think it's more like oranges to tangarines... no they aren't exactly the same, but IMO, a bullwhip IS a unique piece of art. No two whips are exactly the same - look at a DM from the early 80s and compare it with a DM from the early 90s. The tightness, strand width, knot sizes and placement will all be slightly different, if only by a small measurement. The difference between making whips and making suits is that with a suit, Giorgio Armani (or whoever the designer is) will design the suit, have it made (by somebody else) and then have copies made. With the whip, DM designed it and then made his own copies. What's the qualification for calling a whip a DM? Just made in his shop? What about people like Del Carpio or Stenhouse who got tips and were refined by David? Aren't their whips "DMs" too then? They're made to his specs. They're DM-approved. I heard that once, David was given a Bernardo and a DM and couldn't tell the difference.

hollywood1340 wrote:My guess is because he's never created something that hangs on the belt of one of cinema's greatest hero's and followed by a group of people dedicated to being "SA"

Don't get me wrong, screen accuracy isn't really the argument I'm making. We're talking about labels!

Shane

Satipo wrote: A Dyson constructed by James Dyson might be worth a lot of money, but it is no more a Dyson than one made according to his design and construction processes in the factory. Similarly, an Armani suit is still an Armani suit even if Giorgio didn't apply the stitches himself. JMHO, of course.

The difference is that Dyson and Armani are/were designers, while until recently, David Morgan was a craftsman/artisan. Dyson and Armani could develop the concept, but needed to rely on others (a factory and workers) for the production. Nobody would expect a product coming directly from their hands. Whereas if one acquires a David Morgan whip, they have every reason/right to expect it to be produced by him. If the whip is not the handiwork of David Morgan, then it has been "inspired by,"or "designed by" David Morgan.

To me, it is a matter of provenance, which in matters art means the origin or source of a work. I consider most of the whips I own to be works of art. Therefore, I want to know from whose hands they emanated.

I am fortunate to own about twenty Morgan whips. Were I to sell any, I would make sure, to the extent possible, to distinguish those made by David Morgan from those made by others in the David Morgan shop.

I do not dispute the quality of the work coming from David Morgans workshop- it's simply a matter of truth in labeling, which seems to have been addressed in recent Morgan catalogs.

Boggstandard wrote:

Satipo wrote: snip
To me, it is a matter of provenance, which in matters art means the origin or source of a work. I consider most of the whips I own to be works of art. Therefore, I want to know from whose hands they emanated. snip

I am fortunate to own about twenty Morgan whips. Were I to sell any, I would make sure, to the extent possible, to distinguish those made by David Morgan from those made by others in the David Morgan shop.

I do not dispute the quality of the work coming from David Morgans workshop- it's simply a matter of truth in labeling, which seems to have been addressed in recent Morgan catalogs.

Absolutely. We know that Michelangelo didn't create 1000+ copies of the Statue of David, BUT he did do the one standing in Florence. Joe Strain has occasionally had a whip for sale that was made by a family member, and he states VERY clearly that it was not made by himself, and the price reflects that. DM does not make that same fact very clear in his product description. I'm not saying it's a misrepresentation; I'm just pointing out that you're not getting a whip that was handcrafted by DM, but you're still paying the same price as if it was plaited by him. I agree with Shane.

PS I own a Dyson, but it won't lift my bowling ball like an Orek will...and that means a lot to me.

I believe too much importance is being given to the constructor of the whip in earning its name. I understand why, because everybody loves whips here and appreciates their differences and qualities. But I feel these features are often romantically attributed to the maker's skills and creativity when perhaps they were simply a happy accident caused by external circumstances/influences at the time of construction.

A whip is essentially a product which is made to order according to a set design and to varying degrees of quality and consistency, even by the same maker. In his braiding days, David Morgan was efficiently constructing them to meet orders, not lovingly crafting each one. Consequently, not all David Morgan made whips in the 80's were exactly the same as each other, just as they weren't in the 90's.

I still maintain the most important and defining features of a David Morgan whip are its design and construction processes. It is known as a David Morgan whip because it is a David Morgan design using his construction specifications. If someone else makes a whip exactly according to his design and construction methods, then, yes, I would say it could be viewed that they are also making a David Morgan whip. Of course, in terms of legal branding, it would only ever be a faithful reproduction (positive) or a fake (negative) if made unofficially outside the David Morgan company. What many people truly value here is a David Morgan whip put together by David Morgan himself, and while that is understandably extra appealing, it is not a necessary feature of the whip for it to earn the David Morgan name.

Brilliantly said Satipo!!!

I hadn't really thought about it in that way before. Whenever I have had a custom order for a Indy whip with any specific SA construction, I mention on the tag somewhere that it is "...David Morgan Style...", so I think you are right on the nose.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
http://www.midwestwhips.com

Satipo wrote:I believe too much importance is being given to the constructor of the whip in earning its name. I understand why, because everybody loves whips here and appreciates their differences and qualities. But I feel these features are often romantically attributed to the maker's skills and creativity when perhaps they were simply a happy accident caused by external circumstances/influences at the time of construction.

A whip is essentially a product which is made to order according to a set design and to varying degrees of quality and consistency, even by the same maker. In his braiding days, David Morgan was efficiently constructing them to meet orders, not lovingly crafting each one. Consequently, not all David Morgan made whips in the 80's were exactly the same as each other, just as they weren't in the 90's.

I still maintain the most important and defining features of a David Morgan whip are its design and construction processes. It is known as a David Morgan whip because it is a David Morgan design using his construction specifications. If someone else makes a whip exactly according to his design and construction methods, then, yes, I would say it could be viewed that they are also making a David Morgan whip. Of course, in terms of legal branding, it would only ever be a faithful reproduction (positive) or a fake (negative) if made unofficially outside the David Morgan company. What many people truly value here is a David Morgan whip put together by David Morgan himself, and while that is understandably extra appealing, it is not a necessary feature of the whip for it to earn the David Morgan name.

Interesting point Satipo. But are we now in the realm of identifying a craftman's work ethos? To me, an artist putting their name on a product doesn't seem the same as actually making it themselves. I'm sure people would indeed pay more money for a hand stitched jacket from Armani. I just think it's interesting that some whipmakers have a sliding scale for work that came out of their shop, but wasn't actually produced by them. And I think that's fair.

DR Ulloa wrote:WHy would most people buy an AB? Becuase it was made by the same hands that made Harrison's hat. I know that was a factor when I purchased my AB.

It wasn't for me and my order was placed before the news broke. I bought it because it was the best Raiders hat around.

But *shock horror* Steve had someone help him work on the hats for a while. Does that it mean they are no longer Steve Delk hats, not good hats, or not SA?

I would totally agree with the point if David wasn't there. But I'm happy to have a whip made under his supervision to his specs, that he cracked in his store.

ANZAC_1915 wrote:

DR Ulloa wrote:WHy would most people buy an AB? Becuase it was made by the same hands that made Harrison's hat. I know that was a factor when I purchased my AB.

It wasn't for me and my order was placed before the news broke. I bought it because it was the best Raiders hat around.

But *shock horror* Steve had someone help him work on the hats for a while. Does that it mean they are no longer Steve Delk hats, not good hats, or not SA?

I would totally agree with the point if David wasn't there. But I'm happy to have a whip made under his supervision to his specs, that he cracked in his store.

Same on my side. Bought mine long before the Indy 4 thing. I bought one of Steve's hats becouse of it's quallity.

Back to topic I don't think they really could charge less for their whips unless people just stop ordering there. Making a whip will always take it's time. If I would have tons of orders every week I would raise my prices till the order quote is balanced out with what I'm able to produce.
If they would charge a common price probably 3 out of 5 Indyfans would order their Indywhips at DM. That would be kind of a monopoly and they would have to grow their company's. I don't think they want to go so far.
So charing some bucks more just makes things easy for them in my eyes

Lots of valid points being made.

To play devils advocate, the name of the company is “David Morgan”. It’s easy to confuse the company name with the actual person but the Indy bullwhips they make and sell both now and always have essentially been produced under their business name. They refer to the whips as the #450 series bullwhips, their own production by David Morgan (the company) handcrafted at David Morgan (again the company).

We are the ones that basically coined the phrase the David Morgan bullwhip, giving it the credence that the whip was made by David (the person). Yes, up until recently he was the one producing the vast majority of their 450 bullwhips, but as I understand it even in the past David has on rare occasions had help making them.

Like Canuck Digger and I said, Historically it was a common practice for a whip maker to employ other plaiters, making whips the under a company name. The Henderson’s did it, the Hill’s did it and Kra-Mar whips did it just to name a few. It kept the line going and was how many upcoming whip makers learned and perfected the craft. Many still do this today, Paul and Lauren for example make the whips under the Midwest Whips Logo. If you order a whip from them and don't specify who you want to make it, you could get one made by either. The Northern Whip Co. does it; Joe doesn’t make the budget Indy bullwhips he sells and on occasion has sold whips made by his brother. Mike Murphy has a whole line of whips made by others that are sold under the Murphy Whips company name. Like David Morgan, none of them are trying to deceive or pass off those other whips as their personal creation, it's just how the business is sometimes done... So true, while David may no longer make the whips himself, they are still David Morgan bullwhips.

The “screen accurate” thing that keeps popping up is beside the point, David’s bullwhip stopped being “SA” long before he stopped making them and long before Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was ever put into production. That seldom ever stopped people here from buying his whips though. Just Look back in the archived posted over the years and you will see many posts from members who felt it was more important to have a whip hand crafted by the same man who made the film whips, To them it didn’t matter if they didn’t look quite the same as the ones in the films. It was more the raising price and wider variety of Indy whips becoming available that made them start to really think twice about buying the Morgan whips.

For myself a work of art, or a whip in this case has more personal significance if it’s crafted by the original artist/maker. That is my personal feeling on the matter, but it doesn’t mean that work done by their students, apprentices, employee’s or other family member is less valid or of poorer quality as that may not be the case at all, nor does it mean that I don't like those whips. But to me it's just not the same as one made from the hands of original creator/craftsmen. Close yes, and sometimes it's the best you can do or get, but still it's not quite the same. Maybe that is a romantic notion to some extent but I also think there is something to be said for accumulated knowledge and experience that can't be taught, which some artists/whipmakers have over others.

Yes, each individual whip made by the same maker, varies in its own right just as different whip makers trying to produce that same whip bring in distinguishable traits even when they are following strict guidelines. They usually don’t even realize it or care that they do it. They are just producing a product with in certain specifications, but it’s done and it leaves certain characteristics that can help someone who knows what to look for distinguish who made what despite the fact that they are in essence they are the exact same whip, but i digress.

Regarding the whole second-generation quality offshoot, this discussion really isn’t about that. In terms of quality the whips they are sending out now are more finely crafted then the ones David was producing shortly before he started winding down his whip-making career. True the bullwhips have changed and evolved over the years, but the whips they put out now still do exactly what they are designed to do under the conditions they where designed to perform under.

Ultimately, this is a personal preference issue, and as we can see, the market is bearing that out. While I myself might not be willing to spend the going price on a whip that is not made by David himself, obviously, quite a few others are which is the reason for the backlog in orders.

It's entirely up to the David Morgan Co. to set their prices and see if they can entice buyers, which obviously they are. Just because I don't want to pay the current price for one of their current whips doesn't somehow mean that they're being unfair in their pricing, it just means that it's not the whip for me.

I want a DM whip for its mystique and uniqueness, but for me personally, some of that is lost if the whip isn't made by the man himself, but for others, the mystique and uniqueness still carries weight simply because it's made under his supervision.

If I'm searching strictly for best quality at the best price, then Strain, Del Carpio, et. al. would be the obvious choice as their whips are probably just as good as the current David Morgan whips (and some would argue that they're better). However, I'm willing to pay more for a whip that carries a certain mystique value, it's just that the current DM whips don't carry that anymore for me, but for others they still do.

Man, how redundant can one post be? Sorry about that.

Kenton

Personally speaking, the whip comes first, but then I'm not a "SA" kind of guy. Yes, I wanted an Indy whip, but the exact dimensions or whip maker aren't at the top of my list.

I first started researching getting a good kangaroo bullwhip about 6 or 7 years ago. A quick google search lead me to Morgan's site (I didn't come across Indy Gear at that time). The price tag made my jaw drop. I found some other vendors, but didn't care for how their whips looked (not as tight or well formed as Morgan's). And their prices weren't that much less.

So, I didn't buy a whip.

Fast forward to last year when I decided that I wanted to finally get a whip. A similar google search showed that Morgan's prices had jumped. My hopes sank. There's no way I'm paying that much for a whip, no matter who made it (later learning that David wasn't making them further solidified my resolve).

Finding this site lead me to a whole list of whip makers whose quality is equal or possibly better than Morgan's. Reviewing the list, websites and reviews here, I finally ordered a Strain and am more than pleased. It moves like I wanted a bullwhip to move, which to me was the real draw of a "SA" whip: not the size of the Turkish knot or length of the handle but the movement of the body. That was what my old cow hide whips always lacked.

Back to the question posed by the OP, is a Morgan whip worth the price?

Depends on what you want. If you collect Indiana Jones memorabelia (sp?), then yes, you probably want a whip made by the same company, to go with your Wested jacket, etc.

If the label doesn't matter, than I recommend looking at the other vendors to get exactly what you want. You'll get similar quality for a lot less.

I chose a Strain for my "Indy whip" and love it, but there are a slew of guys (and gal ) here who make fantastic whips. You should check the all out. I have a short list of whips I want to get and I've picked vendors based on their specialties. I've added a second whip to my collection, a 10-foot nylon from Ron Allen, and soon hope to contact others about a longer bull and a few stocks. And maybe a pair of shorties... And then a ....

bluzharp wrote:

Boggstandard wrote:

Satipo wrote: snip
Absolutely. We know that Michelangelo didn't create 1000+ copies of the Statue of David, BUT he did do the one standing in Florence.

Are you saying the little plastic David I bought outside the Duomo isn't SA, I mean, made by Michelangelo???



Quick note:
Michelangelo made the David that's inside the museum, not the copy outside in the piaza with bird poop on it. They had a copy made and moved the original inside for preservation a long time ago.

myrddin wrote: Are you saying the little plastic David I bought outside the Duomo isn't SA, I mean, made by Michelangelo???



Quick note:
Michelangelo made the David that's inside the museum, not the copy outside in the piaza with bird poop on it. They had a copy made and moved the original inside for preservation a long time ago.

PM sent

myrddin wrote:snip


I chose a Strain for my "Indy whip" and love it, but there are a slew of guys (and gal ) here who make fantastic whips. You should check the all out. I have a short list of whips I want to get and I've picked vendors based on their specialties. I've added a second whip to my collection, a 10-foot nylon from Ron Allen, and soon hope to contact others about a longer bull and a few stocks. And maybe a pair of shorties... And then a ....

snip

myrddin, I did the same, except that I bought a different style. This has been a fantastic thread, and I've really enjoyed reading other opinions on the subject. Club Obi-wan is a great resource for this type of thing!

Wow, that was certainly a read. Personally, I believe in "old world apprenticeship". With that in mind, no matter what work the apprentice did, when it left the shop, it left with the Master's name on it. As far as I'm concerned, if the whip is made in David's shop, made under his direction and supervision, and he subsequently gives it his blessing for sale; it is a David Morgan Bullwhip.

I think one of the things that folks here are taking into consideration, that doesn't really apply, is the one-man shop. Whipmakers are "craftsmen" and "tradesmen". Typically, these types of jobs are done in shops with multiple workers/apprentices under the supervision of a "master". Today, whipmaking is a very small community, with a very small demand for the product. Because of that, most all of the "shops" are a single-person shop. Midwest Whips is one of the few out there that openly advertises multiple craftsmen.

Because of the decrease in size of the community, and increase in one-man shops, we have become overly accustomed to associating the product directly to the "master" and not as a product of his shop.

Should an apprentice work his way up through journeyman to master, they typically would either stay, and continue to work under his "master's name", or would open his own shop under his own name. In the case of David Morgan, whether Will's skill-level is considered "master" or not, is not the topic of debate. He continues to operate under the name of David Morgan with the master (David) giving final approval to any product that leaves his shop.

Now, I understand the desire to own a David-crafted David Morgan bullwhip, however, this is not the same thing as a hand-crafted David Morgan bullwhip. As for the cost, it is all a matter of supply and demand. David has a large enough demand that he can keep his prices higher than the competition and his whips will continue to sell.

Just my thoughts.

Mike

Well said Joe, er Mike

Well, I guess I am lucky. When I ordered my DM, I had just begun to hear about Meagan helping David make whips. I really wished that I could have one that was made by David himself, but I didn't know if I could ever be assured of that, if he had someone helping him make whips.

I called his company in reference to my order, and I never even thought about asking to speak to David himself. The lady that answered the phone, when she found out I was calling about a whip order, put me on hold. In a few moments, David answered the phone.

He was the nicest man. He began to talk to me for the longest time, as if I was some long lost friend. I almost began to feel quilty, that I was taking up too much of his time, but he was the one that kept the conversation going.

Well, since I had him on the phone, I went ahead and broached the subject. I told him I was really hoping he would be the one to make my whip. He told me not to worry. Meagan had begun to help him in the shop, but she was busy working on another project and it was going to be awhile before she could help him again. He said he was the one that was going to make my whip from start to finish and that he would be done with it and shipping it out sometime the following week.

David himself told me that he was making my whip and I believe him. That does make me feel good. It doesn't really make any difference in the whips value during my lifetime, as I have no intent of selling it.