GUN IDENTIFIED!!! - ToD car chase

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:59 am

Howdy,

Indiana Bond and I were conversing about his new S&W 1917 and possible conversion to a SA gun when we came across something, and possibly BIG. Michaelson and several others joined in on this other thread as well, so this post I kind of an amalgam of that thread.

According to the Indygear mainpage (based mostly I believe on Lee Keppler's info), the two S&Ws used in Raiders were the "Bapty" and the "Stembridge". The Bapty is credited as being used in all the scenes where guns were actually fired; the Stembridge is said to be a "non-firing" gun, used only when surrendered to Belloq in the Temple scene and when Indy tosses the gun into his suitcase at his house.

In ToD, it is stated that "either" the Bapty or the Stembridge was used in the car chase scene as Indy fires at Lao Che's pursuit cars. Based on the earlier statements, the non-firing Stembridge could NOT be the gun Indy shoots, as it is described as "non-firing". In a recent conversation with Lee Keppler, Indiana Bond said:

I decided to speak with Lee Keppler about the Stembridge gun and also its' use in TOD. Lee has confirmed to me that it was the Stembridge that was used in TOD. He was told by the Stembridge company that it was rented from them for TOD. He also confirmed that the car interior scenes were filmed in Hollywood. Furthermore he told me that the Stembridge is also a "shooter"! It was fired in the car chase scenes and also Lee fired it himself when he had it!

So now we discover that the Stembridge is actually a SHOOTING weapon, not a "non-firing" prop. To quote Michaelson:

Hummm. Lee needs to get his stories straight. viewtopic.php?t=16398
Back in 2006, he was telling folks the Stembridge was the NON-shooter. The concensus back then was that the Baphy was the shooter: viewtopic.php?t=16273 What's changed in 3 years?

It has always been said that the 'shooter' in Raiders was also the shooter in TofD....it's just been dicey as to what gun was which, and the story shifts back and forth. Now we're reading it was fired in one, and not the other. Interesting twist. That's one I've never heard before today. It didn't even get included in the main page write up, so if it were 'known' all this time, THAT sure fell through the cracks!

This brings us to the car scene. In the screen caps I can get off of DVD, I cannot identify the gun Indy fires; the camera focus is on HF's face, so the gun is blurred. However, after watching this scene dozens of times, I am convinced that, 1) the barrel has a blued tip, not a metallic tip like the Stembridge, and 2) the barrel is longer than 4", as on both the Stembridge and the Bapty. So what gun is being used?

Further, the gun Willie juggles in the interior of the car is DEFINATELY neither the Bapty nor the Stembridge. The gun has medallions on the grip (only the Bapty sported these) and has no swivel (as did both guns in question). In addition, I believe this gun has a barrel longer than 4 inches:

Now, could this be a rubber prop gun? Maybe, but do prop guns have a working cylinder that will open and close? In my (very) limited work in movies and props, my experience says no. In addition, the gun does not handle in Willie's hands like a rubber prop; it appears to have more weight.

More from Michaelson:

It's also been reported for years that the gun tossed out the window of the car was a Colt New Service rubber 'stunt gun'....and yet in the latest clear photos of the still framed revolver, you can make out a barrel shroud in front of the cylinder. The big Colts weakness was its exposed cylinder pin under the barrel that was easily bent. The jury is STILL out on THAT one, even with the current photos. You can make out a cylinder pin shroud in the photos on our main page write up. Every New Service I've ever handled had its pin exposed, in the open with no front support.

Therefore, based on Lee Keppler's info and my interpretation of the screen caps, I submit that the gun Indy fires and Willie handles in the ToD car chase scene is neither the Stembridge nor the Bapty nor a rubber prop but a hitherto UNIDENTIFIED REVOLVER. Now this may not be new news (as Michaelson pointed out, info on this gun has been up in the air forever); but, armed with new DVD/BluRay screen caps, perhaps we could start a new effort to definatively pin down the ToD revolver(s).

Please feel free to pick as many holes in this thesis as possible.

RaiderZee

VP · Post by VP » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:53 am

I thought it was a Colt New Service M1917.

Last Crusader · Post by **Last Crusader** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:18 am

Colt New Service 1917

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:43 am

Yeppers.

TR

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:17 pm

According to the Indygear handgun page, the only Colt alledged to have been used as Indy's gun was a rubber prop for the camera shot that shows the gun bouncing off the car's running board. And this has recently come in for debate as well. I think in this screen cap you can clearly see the S&W-style ejector rod shroud:

There has never been mention of a Colt ever being FIRED by HF, though clearly either real or dummy Colts were on set; Lao Che's thugs are clearly brandishing some in their chase car.

So which revolver is actually fired/juggled in the car chase?

RZ

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:55 am

For those that are interested here is the link to the previous thread where this discussion began.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37370&start=33

I have also gone over the car chase scene numerous times and it definately seems like this is a totally different gun than previously thought. Not the Bapty, not the Stembridge, and not a Colt New Service 1917. In the scenes where Indy is shooting out the back window it looks like a completely blued tip and seems to be a longer barrel. Not 4 inch. When Willie is jungling the gun you can see the medallions and the lack of a grip swivel and also what seems to be a longer barrel. It's not a "rubber" gun as the cylinder was opened. When the gun hits the running boards you can see what seems to be a longer barrel and also a rod shroud.

Based on this info here is my conclusion. I believe this to be a commercial model S&W 1917 with the standard 5 1/2 inch barrel, silver medallion grips, and no grip swivel ring. This was the standard configuration of the non-military commercial varient. I believe this same gun would have been used in all the scenes. Shooting, fumbling, and falling out the car. No rubber stunt doubles.

If the prop department was issued an order to acquire a S&W 1917 this gun is very likely what they would have gotten. And unless they specifically requested the 4 inch version as used in ROTLA, there is no reason that a 4 inch gun would have been used. Ask for a S&W 1917 and you would most likely end up with what looks like the gun we see here in the TOD car chase.

I'm in total agreement with RaiderZee. Let's get some more thoughts on this!! I will be meeting with Lee Keppler later this week and I will get his ideas on this new theory also.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:10 am

Well, think about it for a moment. The holster we see him wear in ToD is for a longer pistol than the cut down Raiders guns. Wouldn't it make sense that the gun he lost out the car window would've fit that holster? I'd agree with the S&W 5 1/2 inch barrel assessment, though I'm sure they WOULD have used a rubber gun to bounce off the car. No gun propmaster in his right mind would let them continuously drop a real gun like that!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:44 am

Both guns in Raiders were used for scenes where shooting took place. The Stembridge was used in the Raven Bar scene ( I think there was some sort of gun battle there

) and the Bapty was used to shoot the Cairo Swordsman as well as the truck Marion was supposedly in. I'd think that with a little bit of knowledge of the differences of these guns and a copy of the film would make that pretty obvious.
The scene where the gun falls out of the car in TOD was most likely shot by a second unit at a different time and place than the gun that was used for actual shooting in the car. Unless you pause the film you really can't distinguish any real barrel length so on it so the story of them substituting the Colt for the Smith made perfect sense to me. It was for a fast moving shot which took place in a second or so and we're probably the only group of people in the entire world who notices or discusses it to this length. Not that theres anything wrong with that, of course.

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:23 pm

Agent5,

That's the first time I've heard that the Stembridge was the shooter in the Raven Bar scene. It would make sense especially if that scene was filmed in Hollywood. What's your source for that info?

Bink,

Yes the "falling" gun may have been a rubber stunt double, but remember, back in the 80's when TOD was filmed these S&W 1917's were pretty cheap and a lot easier to be found. Plus the way they are built I don't think any propmaster would really be concerned about dropping one. They don't seemed to be concerned about blowing up cars and planes so dropping a $150 gun probably would not have been an issue.

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:58 pm

OK, I've spoken with Lee Keppler on this issue once again. First in regard to the Bapty and Stembridge in ROTLA. The Bapty is definately "The Shooter". it was used for all the scenes filmed in Europe which includes the street fight scene and the Raven bar scene. So it was the only gun of the two that was actually fired. The Stembridge was used in the USA filmed scenes. Which means the Hawaii scenes (Peru) and Indy's home. It was never fired in the movie. This, however, does not mean it was a non-functional weapon. Lee actually fired it when he had it. I believe that a mis-understanding arose sometime in the past when the Stembrige was labeled as the "non-shooter". It never meant that it was non-operational as many have thought. Even the main page here still states that "is a non-shooting revolver that the production team rented from Stembridge Gun Rentals." We know that it was a functional handgun and only a "non-shooter" in regards to its use in the ROTLA film.

In regards to the revolver in TOD. As has been stated many times in the past, no one is really sure what handgun was used. It was theorized that it may have been the Stembridge or Bapty. Many of us thinking it must have been the Bapty as we had thought the Stembridge was non functional and since the gun was fired in the film it must be the Bapty. We do know that the car scene was filmed in Hollywood. Also, Lee informed me that he was told by Stembridge Gun Rentals that the Stembridge was also rented for TOD. And we also know that the Stembridge was functional. So between the Bapty or Stembridge the gun used would have most likely been the Stembridge as it would be very unlikely that they would rent the Bapty from England to be used here in the USA. Plus since the Stembridge was indeed functional it could have been the shooting gun used in TOD.

However, now we have slightly better screen grabs of the gun used in TOD and we can see that the gun used is probably neither the Stembridge or Bapty. Even though the Stembridge was rented for TOD it doesn't mean that it was ever used for filming. So it basically brings us back to what many here on this forum have been saying all along. We really don't have any positive idea what handgun was used in TOD.

Hopefully we will soon be able to get some hi-def screen grabs and it may shed some more light on all of this. As of now, it remains a question as it always has been!

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:33 pm

Great job, IB; that really clears things up. So we're still hanging with an unidentified Indy gun for the car chase scene. We really need shots of Indy shooting through the back window of the car; that'll be tough because the focus is on HF. Maybe when he pulls it back through we could get clearer shots? You're right; we'll probably have to wait until the BluRay release of TOD, though I'm pretty sure SOMEONE with top-of-the-line software can get better screen grabs off the DVD than I did. Anyone?

RaiderZee

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:18 pm

Hi all,

Perhaps I can shed some light on the gun used in Temple of Doom, as I have spent some time researching the matter with Syd Stembridge.

First on the Raiders guns. The "Stembridge" revolver is a real revolver and of course capable of firing. The term "non firing" probably came about because the gun is never fired in the film. Anytime the gun is fired in the film, it is the "BAPTY" gun. This includes all of the scenes in Tunisia as well as the Raven Bar. All studio work for Raiders, including the Raven Bar, was done at EMI Elstree in the UK.

The Stembridge gun makes two appearances in Raiders - when Ford pulls it from his revolver after rolling out of the temple (Kauai) and for the extreme close up of the gun when it is rolled out of the cloth. This is an insert shot done later in the US, likely without Ford. You can tell the robe the stand-in is wearing is different. The wide shot of Ford tossing the gun into the suitcase is the BAPTY gun, shot in the apartment set at Elstree.

Now moving on to Temple. Indy was intended to carry the Webley Green in TOD, as evidenced by the use of the Webley holster, even though we never see it in the film. I do not know why the change was made from the S&W in the first film, but this is why the Webley Green was used in Last Crusade (interesting note: we provided photos of the original Webley Green from LC to the production of Crystal Skull when they were trying to match the gun).

Part of the car chase scene in TOD was shot in the UK, and it was finished here in California. The UK prop department sent photos and information on several different guns to Stembridge Gun Rentals, so that they could match the guns from the footage already shot. Amongst these were photos of a Webley .455/476 WG Army Model (marked IJ personal gun), a Colt Official Police .38 w/ 3" barrel (marked for use by chinese gangster on left hand running board of black pursuit car), and a Smith and Wesson .38 (marked for use by chinese gangster on right hand running board of black pursuit car. )

Neither the BAPTY or the Stembridge Raiders pistol was used in the production of TOD. Stembridge rented guns to the production of TOD that were a close match to the photos sent from the UK. These guns included a Webley 455 WG Army Model, a Colt 38 cal OP revolver w/ 4" barrel, and a S&W 38 cal w/ 5" barrel and swivel.

You can guess what happened next. When the guns showed up on set, Ford was not given the Webley, but one of the other guns that had been rented for the film. The gun being used by Ford and Capshaw is either the Colt or the S&W that was originally intended for use by one of the gangsters. Which one - it is difficult to tell from the very brief views we get in the film, so I will leave that for debate here.

Regards,
Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
http://www.propstore.com

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:55 pm

Wow, Brandon, that is terrific info! Thanks for [posting this stuff. It sure clears up a bunch of issues; of course, like all good IndyGear answers, it raises more questions:

1. You said that the guns rented for TOD included the WG, S&W .38 5" and Colt .38 4". Were any other guns rented that may even have possibly been used by HF in the car? If not, the gun in question must be the Colt, as it clearly has no swivel. Perhaps the reason the gun barrel may appear longer than 4" is due to the slightly smaller frame of a Colt OP compared to a S&W N-frame, which is what we've been trained to look for.

2. Michaelson posted this recently on a thread about the WG in LC:

Michaelson wrote:The ONLY reason Indy has the Webley is because Rob MacGregor saw one in a gun shop, thought it was neat looking, and wrote it into the LC storyline. He told me this himself while consulting with me on guns for his book/program 'Amazon' several years ago. No other reason than an authors whim, plain and simple.

So we have contradicting reports on whether the WG was supposed to be used first in TOD or LC. Both positions seem pretty definative. Can anyone clarify this further?

RaiderZee

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:21 pm

RaiderZee wrote:1. You said that the guns rented for TOD included the WG, S&W .38 5" and Colt .38 4". Were any other guns rented that may even have possibly been used by HF in the car? If not, the gun in question must be the Colt, as it clearly has no swivel. Perhaps the reason the gun barrel may appear longer than 4" is due to the slightly smaller frame of a Colt OP compared to a S&W N-frame, which is what we've been trained to look for.

Those were the only revolvers rented. Other guns included the Thompsons for the same chase, and Martini-Henry rifles w/ brass bands used for pick-up work in the mine car chase.

BrandonA18 wrote:2. Michaelson posted this recently on a thread about the WG in LC:
Michaelson wrote:
The ONLY reason Indy has the Webley is because Rob MacGregor saw one in a gun shop, thought it was neat looking, and wrote it into the LC storyline. He told me this himself while consulting with me on guns for his book/program 'Amazon' several years ago. No other reason than an authors whim, plain and simple.
So we have contradicting reports on whether the WG was supposed to be used first in TOD or LC. Both positions seem pretty definative. Can anyone clarify this further?

I'm sure that's the reason he has it in the novelization done by Rob MacGregor, but I would assume the novelization was done after the screenplay and possibly after the film was done. The fact it was intended to be used in TOD is shown by the use of the Webley holster in the film, and supporting paperwork from the production.

Best,
Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
www.propstore.com

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:02 pm

Thanks for popping in, Brandon. Informative as always. Nice to see you around here. Shoot me an e-mail if you have any Raiders news on props or anything at all. Always interested.

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:40 pm

Again, many thanks Brandon. This seems to be the definative answer we've been looking for. The Colt .38 OP it is (great weapon but, oh boy, was Indy under-gunned in THAT scene).

RZ

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:29 am

Brandon,

Wow thanks for the great info! I'm in Hawaii right now working on my farm for the next 2 weeks. It would be great if someone could post some generic pics of those revolvers. I would do it but I'm kind of busy!

Lets see if we can find some pics and perhaps some more details on those 2 revolvers.

Thanks all!!

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:44 am

Here you go IB:

Colt Official Police .38, 4" barrel, no swivel, circa 1940s

Smith & Wesson Military & Police .38, 5" barrel, with swivel, circa 1941

RZ

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:17 am

RZ,

That was fast! Thanks! Now we have something to try to make some comparisons. I would say from the screen grabs it looks like the S&W except for the grip swivel. Some of the shots with Willie fumbling the gun could be the Colt. Especially this one.

This shot looks like a 4 inch barrel but still hard to tell.

I think we still need to wait for some hi-def screen grabs. But at least we have some more possibilities with this new info!!

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:03 am

Why not try the main site?

http://www.indygear.com/igguns.html

Post by **Mike** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:25 am

There's a main site?

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:14 am

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:22 am

Looks to me like the gun in the car is the Colt. Several shots of the barrel looks as if it doesn't have the shroud as found on the S&W. If it did have the shroud, you'd see the bump on the underside of the barrel when the cylinder was swung open. The drop gun, however, looks pretty obvious to me like it has the shroud, making me think the drop gun was a S&W rubber gun.

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:06 am

I created a composite overlay of a Colt Official Police with a 4 inch barrel with the TOD screen cap to try to determine the barrel length. From this comparison it does look like a confirmation of the revolver having a 4 inch barrel. I do think we have match here!

your ghost host · Post by **your ghost host** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:14 pm

wow that is sweet and will really help with my fan film and the time line. "1917"

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:54 pm

Good work, IB. Looks like a match to me.

RZ

moviematt1989 · Post by **moviematt1989** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:01 pm

How'd you get HD shots? They look so pretty! I've never seen short rounds face look so smooth!

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:43 am

This is a continuation from a discussion on the below thread that I thought would be better to continue here.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39440&p=557383#p557383

Michaelson wrote:
For example, as I mentioned above, and from your own linked thread:

The gun being used by Ford and Capshaw is either the Colt or the S&W that was originally intended for use by one of the gangsters. Which one - it is difficult to tell from the very brief views we get in the film, so I will leave that for debate here.

Regards,
Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
http://www.propstore.com
So, we see that even the 'first hand' individual isn't sure, and therefore it is still inconclusive WHICH gun was fired by Ford, for the very reason I stated above, and backed by Mr. Alinger's comment. The photo just does not give us a clear view of the bottom of the barrel as to whether or not it has a barrel shrold, indicating Colt or Smith. Both would still have a 4 inch barrel.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes Michaelson,

I do realize that Mr. Alinger would not know which of the 2 guns was used in the car chase scene as of course he was not there. So it could be either one. That's why I have studied the photos more closely. I also agree that the gun filmed falling on to the running boards of the car is not clear enough to identify conclusively as it is too blurred. Same with the gun being fired out the back window by Indy. However we do have what I believe are clear enough photos of the gun, as being fumbled by Willy, to make an identification of at least that gun.

I believe we are all in agreement by the photos presented further up this thread, that it was not the "Raiders" smith or a Colt 1917 because the photos show no grip swivel. I believe we are also in agreement that, because of Mr. Alinger's information that follows, it must have been either a Colt 38 cal OP revolver w/ 4" barrel, or a S&W 38 cal w/ 5" barrel.

BrandonA18 wrote:
Neither the BAPTY or the Stembridge Raiders pistol was used in the production of TOD. Stembridge rented guns to the production of TOD that were a close match to the photos sent from the UK. These guns included a Webley 455 WG Army Model, a Colt 38 cal OP revolver w/ 4" barrel, and a S&W 38 cal w/ 5" barrel and swivel.

Regards,
Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
http://www.propstore.com

Now here below are two photos that I feel shows that the fumbled gun does not show a barrel shroud. Point one in favor of the Colt OP.

Below is the same photo enlarged with an overlay of a 4 inch Colt OP shows that the gun had a 4 inch barrel. Remember that Mr. Alinger stated that the S&W .38 had a 5 inch barrel and a swivel. We already stated that the photo shows no swivel and this comparison shows it as a 4 inch barrel. Point two in favor of the Colt OP.

Michaelson, you said "Both would still have a 4 inch barrel." But I disagree because Mr. Alinger has told us the S&W had a 5 inch barrel and further more it had a grip swivel. The photo below shows no grip swivel. Point three in favor of the Colt OP.

So these are my 3 points supported by photographic evidence that leads me to believe that the hand gun that was fumbled by Willy in the TOD car chase scene was a Colt Official Police with a 4 inch barrel. Now as far as the gun falling on the cars running boards or the gun being shot out the back window by Indy, I do agree that the photos are too blurred to make a conclusive identification. I hope to be purchasing a 4 inch Colt OP soon and will try to make some further comparison photos similar to the screen cap below to see if we can make some determination on the gun fired by Indy.

I also concur with Bink and his views.

binkmeisterRick wrote:Looks to me like the gun in the car is the Colt. Several shots of the barrel looks as if it doesn't have the shroud as found on the S&W. If it did have the shroud, you'd see the bump on the underside of the barrel when the cylinder was swung open. The drop gun, however, looks pretty obvious to me like it has the shroud, making me think the drop gun was a S&W rubber gun.

Thus I have presented my evidence.
Gentlemen I rest my case!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:50 am

Well, point one, the Smith Military/Police had a detachable lanyard swivel. You can see one used in the Club Obi Wan that is dropped by Wu Han when he is shot at the table and it's picked up by Lao Che's son. Just because you don't see one on the revolver in the car does not prove a thing.

Second point, the M/P had a spring loaded cylinder pin clip under the barrel to protect the pin. The shroud was made a part of the barrel when the Model 10 was introduced after WW2. These photos are not clear enough to prove one way or the other that the clip is or is not on this particular gun.

Yes, I agree once again, the Colt is the best candidate, and would say the weight of proof leans more toward the Official Police being the revolver used inside the car....but there's enough doubt to say it's NOT an absolute. The difference in seeing a 5 inch barrel vs a 4 inch barrel is so slight, it's difficult to tell the difference without guns being side by side. We've seen that debate rage back and forth between folks regarding hats and jackets for years, and by folks looking at the exact same items.

If I were on a jury and had this presented as proof of your case, I'd probably vote in a hung jury, as it's not proven to my eye, and from what I know of both revolvers.

I'm stating this from personal opinion, as I've OWNED an example of both guns in years past, and there's enough to lean one way OR the other based on what we see in the brief moments of the gun in the car.

So, sorry, though your case is well presented, for me it's not proven. It's good, but not a homerun.

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:36 am

Is there any gun you haven't owned?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:10 am

Oh, a few.

I leave the one's like you show above for _ to collect. Check out his new avatar!

Regards! Michaelson

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:20 pm

I agree, Michaelson. The case made on this thread is building for the gun being the Colt, but it's still a circumstantial case. More info (Blu-Ray screen caps, etc.) is needed for a conviction.

RZ

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:29 pm

True, and this time the right suspects have finally been round up.

Either way you want to go, this was a job WELL done and researched, gentlemen! I tip my fedora to you!

HIGH regard! Michaelson

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:25 pm

I'm still working on this! I guess I have too much spare time!

Here is a comparison composite I did for the "falling gun".

S&W 5 inch barrel on the left - Colt 4 inch barrel on the right

This pretty much proves that the falling gun was not a four inch gun. It definately looks like a Smith of some sort. Now if it was the Smith provided by Stembridge or perhaps a rubber "stunt double" who knows?! We will probably never know!!

Next I'm going to work some more composite comparison photos compairing 4 and 5 inch barrel guns with the "Willie juggling gun" screen cap. And when I pick up my 4 inch Colt OP I will try to do some comparison photos with the "Indy shooting out the window gun".

This is so much fun!!!

VP · Post by VP » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:31 pm

moviematt1989 wrote:How'd you get HD shots? They look so pretty! I've never seen short rounds face look so smooth!

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4193907 ... 64.AC3.5.1

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:01 pm

Yep, you can plainly see the cylinder pin clip on the gun in the center photo, so that's definitely an old Smith and Wesson.

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:56 pm

OK, as promised, below is a composite comparison of the "Willie Juggling Gun" with a S&W 38 cal w/ 5" barrel and swivel, and a Colt 38 cal OP revolver w/ 4" barrel. Luckily the "juggling gun" screen cap is almost perfectly "end on" from the bottom and, even though the photo is a bit blurred, we can still get a good "mechanical drawing" comparison of the various dimensions. Michaelson, you wanted a "side by side" comparison? Well, this is about as close as you can get!

The main thing we are looking at in the above photo is the barrel length comparison. If it matches a 4 inch barrel (which it obviously does) it must be the Colt OP as the S&W provided by Stembridge had a 5 inch barrel.

Next point; Michaelson said, "the Smith Military/Police had a detachable lanyard swivel". OK, but if it was detached it would still leave a visible mounting hole in the bottom of the grip. The below enlarged and enhanced photo of the grip shows no mounting hole. This also makes me believe that it must be the Colt OP.

I will concede to Michaelsons point that; "the M/P had a spring loaded cylinder pin clip under the barrel to protect the pin. The shroud was made a part of the barrel when the Model 10 was introduced after WW2. These photos are not clear enough to prove one way or the other that the clip is or is not on this particular gun.", as the photos are too blurred to pick up a small "pin clip" on a pre WW2 S&W versus a "shroud" on a post WW2 S&W.

I believe that the lack of a swivel and the barrel length comparison should be enough evidence to conclude that the "Willie Juggling Gun" is the 4 inch Colt Official Police.

I will now leave it up to the "jury" to decide!!

or

Let the deliberations begin!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:18 am

Looking more

to me with every post!

THIS is the kind of proof/research I'M talking about!

Regards! Michaelson

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:46 pm

Hi guys,

Very nice work with the photo comparisons.

Stembridge did not rent any rubber guns to the production. It is always possible the prop master could have acquired a rubber gun elsewhere, but my guess would be that the "drop gun" is the real 5" barrel S&W that was rented to the production.

Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
www.propstore.com

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:14 pm

Brandon,

We know that the inside the car scene with Willie juggling the gun was filmed in Hollywood. Do you know if the scene with Indy shooting out the back window was also filmed in Hollywood?

Also do you think you can capture the exact frame as shown below from your Hi-Def source? That frame really shows the bottom of the grip very clearly and would really help solve the mystery of the Colt versus the S&W.

And again thank you so much for the immense help and information source regarding this quest!!

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:27 pm

Yes, I believe all of the shots of Ford firing were done in California.

Interestingly, the guns were rented on August 25 1983, and returned September 12, 1983.

On December 1st, 1983, the production rented the 5" S&W and the 4" Colt again. They were returned December 15. I'm guessing this is when the insert shot was done....

I'll try to do another screencapture...

Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
www.propstore.com

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:39 pm

BrandonA18 wrote: Stembridge did not rent any rubber guns to the production. It is always possible the prop master could have acquired a rubber gun elsewhere, but my guess would be that the "drop gun" is the real 5" barrel S&W that was rented to the production.

I've heard stories of gun prop masters who go ape when a real rented gun is abused in the slightest way. I just can't imagine repeatedly dropping a real gun as such for that brief a shot, and just to get the right bounce off a fender, to boot. Would it be uncommon for a prop master to rent such things elsewhere, or to even have a rubber gun somewhat handy? Just brainstorming, but what if that particular fender bounce shot was done when they didn't have any of the Stembridge guns available?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:43 pm

I thought it somewhat common for propmasters to sometimes have their own back-up's just in case? Maybe that's what happended here? He had one from another production and used that one for the drop. As with so many of these things, maybe we'll just never know.

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:52 pm

Hi guys,

It's certainly possible that the property master could have sourced a rubber gun from elsewhere.

In my opinion it looks more like a real firearm than a rubber gun. Rubber guns in that era were more crude than they are today.

Since we know they had a 5" real S&W on set, and this one looks like a real 5" S&W, that is what I would put my money on. Rented firearms in the film industry are frequently abused, and sometimes even destroyed. So while it may seem crazy to drop a real firearm like that, it would not be crazy in the world of film-making.

BTW I double checked and they did rent one rubber gun - a Thompson.

Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
http://www.propstore.com

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:33 am

Doing some more "research". Found a good photo that should show the spring loaded cylinder pin or shroud of a S&W if it were there. The arrow shows where there should be a "bump" on the barrel if this was a S&W. But we see none.

We see the cylinder slightly open with Willie's finger resting on and covering the cylinder pin. The entire length of the bottom of the barrel is clearly visible and we see no protrusion.

I may have conceded the shroud or pin to Michaelson earlier, But the more I look I may have to take that back as I have seen a few images that, to my eye, show a smooth barrel with no pin or shroud.

More evidence for the jury!

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:41 am

Nope, no cylinder pin clip, based on that photo. It would be very evident, even in shadow.

That only leaves one candidate left for the 'in the car' revolver.....Colt.

Bravo!

THIS is the kind of systematic research that separates this site from all others. We have many individuals here who have done this kind of exacting work. I'm proud to be associated to this kind of community.

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:36 pm

Thank you for your

Michaelson!!

So it looks like we can be relatively confident in saying that there were 2 guns used in the TOD car chase.

#1 - Colt 38 cal OP revolver w/ 4" barrel - (Willie Juggling Gun)

#2 - S&W 38 cal w/ 5" barrel and swivel - (Falling Gun)

There seems to be a consensus on this. The only question remaining would be which of the 2 guns was used by Indy firing out the back window? (Indy Shooting Gun)

Next question is: How and when should this info be posted on the Main IndyGear page? I know when I was working with Rook on the Webley WG Identification for Last Crusade we had determined that it was not the MK VI but it took almost a year before the info was corrected on the Main IndyGear page. Do you thing we should try to get this new info posted a bit quicker?

I will be working on trying to ID the "Indy Shooting Gun" and also will work on getting more proof positive on the "Willie Juggling Gun". Let's hear from more members if we have a

regarding the research done so far.

Thank you all again and yes I do have too much spare time!!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:41 pm

I already posted an 'alert' in the site update area, so they're aware of the ongoing research.

Regards! Michaelson

RaiderZee · Post by **RaiderZee** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:03 pm

IB, you've outdone yourself. Well done on all the comparision and measurement pics. My fedora is off to you, sir!

Theory - The crew used the S&W for the falling gun scene; that way they wouldn't take a chance on damaging the Colt used by Ford in case they needed to reshoot anything.

RZ

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:10 am

Here's another piece of evidence making the "falling gun" the S&W.

You can clearly see the "swivel" on the bottom of the grip of the S&W in this screen cap.