Club Obi Wan

I rented the Indy Fan dvd this last weekend, mostly out of curiousity. I was pleased to find a short interview with D. Landis of Raiders fame. What she said added to my knowledge of the creation of the Raiders fedora. Some interesting tidbits.......

1) Harrison tried on a plethora of fedoras at B and N, in London. Deb stated how one must try on many hats to find one that fits the face, or in this case, Harrsions long, thin face.

2) She then went to HJ, to find a hat that she apparently had a vision of in her mind. Upon arriving at HJ, she found that all of the brown fedoras were Borsalino or Italian styled fedoras, with not enough brim.

3) She settled upon a classic Aussie styled hat, with the brim turned up on one side, as is typical of this style of hat. She chose it because it had a broad brim, that she could cut down to what she was after. This was apparently to be the prototype, and once she(they, HJ) had the hat bespoked(custom made) this prototype was used to replicate the order for the film.

4) It was obvious to me she was unclear on whether or not they reduced the crown height to match her vision of this fedora.

5) She specified that the film hats were not to have the holes associated with probably vents, and the place where the chin straps came through the brim, which says to me, that the Aussie hat was not used for the film hats, but only for the prototype.

6) She never mentioned the dimesional cut.

In the end, I was left with more questions, but I realize that since she never knew this was to be an iconic hat, her memory is probably kinda unclear. It was just another hat, for a B movie.

If we go by Mr. Swales account, they then used a Poet as a basis for creating the hat from the prototype. The big question to me is, since the Poet we know is not even close to the crown shape on an Aussie hat, what did they do to get it there? Reblock? That would be logical. And if so, I would assume the shop had blocks, the way that Locke did. And unlike the following film hats for the next two films, this first hat was indeed a bespoke hat, while the other two were clearly made at some factory. And this is the difference between the Raiders fedora and what followed.

After I listend to the interview for about 20 times, I came away with more questions than the interview answered. Of course, she probably had no clue as to what the shop did to replicate the film hats for Raiders.

She went to France with only one hat and one jacket, and the rest had not been made yet.

I think the biggest thing I learned was that the prototype was indeed a true Aussie hat, with a wide brim, but they don't use grosgrain ribbons on those hats! He earlier comment of it having a wide ribbon (which I took to be a wide grosgrain) doesn't make sense, as she knows the difference.

Fedora

This is very interesting, what interview is this?

Do you think she saw this australian hat and said "can we have a hat like this?" then Swales or whoever said "sure", then went to wherever the HJ were blocked and decided that the Poet of their catalogue in 1981 was the closest and had those reproduced for the film?

This is very interesting, what interview is this?

Do you think she saw this australian hat and said "can we have a hat like this?" then Swales or whoever said "sure", then went to wherever the HJ were blocked and decided that the Poet of their catalogue in 1981 was the closest and had those reproduced for the film?
This is very interesting, what interview is this?

It is on a dvd called Indy Fan. A documentary of various Indy Fans, etc.

From what the interview said, (apparently done when she was selling her new book) she walked into HJ looking for a particular type of fedora. When they had none(all hats in stock in brown fedoras did not have enough brim and did not look "rough enough"), she chose an Aussie hat they had on hand, due to the size of the brim. She said she knew she could cut it down, since she had made the hats for Blues Brothers. So, she knew a thing about hats. Once she used this(or they used it) to get what she wanted, in brim width, etc, they custom made the film hats using this as the model.

She never mentioned the Poet. But, she probably had no clue as to what they would use, but she did specify that no holes be in the hats. What we must remember, is she being a costumer designer, with an image in her mind, wanted an exact replication of what the Aussie hat lended in crown shape. Now, she at first said she thought the crown height stayed the same, but later on in the interview stated that the crown was dropped. Now, if the crown was dropped in that Aussie hat, on site, one has to assume a block was used to make it so. And if a block was used on the Aussie hat, that same block was used on the film hats....to please the designer. And to me, this is why the Poet used in TOD and TLC looked different than the handmade or bespoke hat that was the Raiders fedora. Different animals. What is puzzling, is I have a couple of Aussie hats, and the crown shape is NOT the Raider crown, no way. My guess would be that Swales reblocked the Aussie hat, and then used this same block he had in the shop to create the fedora. Because, think about it...have you ever seen an Aussie hat with the same crown shape as the Raiders fedora? It it totally different. As I said, the interview raised more questions. But, this work was done at HJ, so we would have to trust Swales, and like D.L. he probably did not remember. It was just another bespoke hat. That he gave us two different brim dimensions later on shows us he was not exactly sure of the brim widths! I think we could expect his memory to be unclear on the rest of it as well. IMO.

What we must not forget is that at one time HJ made bespoke hats, or custom hats. In order to do so, they would have had a small hat shop on premisies, a hold over from the old days, just like Locke used to have. She clearly said this was a bespoke hat, so that means the shop made the hats. Now, they may have used a Poet as the starting point, and then cut the brims, and reblocked the hats, and put the ribbons on them. We can clearly see that the Raider fedora doesn't have the same bow work as what followd in the other two films. My bet is that they were made right there in the shop.

She also stated that you could never buy this Raiders fedora, as it was custom or bespoke. They did not sell this hat at all, at the time. She was very, very clear about this. I doubt Swales wanted to bespoke the hats he sent out to the fans, and just used what they had used for the other two films. That makes alot of sense to me.

To me the Raider fedora is now making more sense, and it answers the question of why the other film hats did not look exactly like the Raiders fedora. Heck, the Raider fedora prototype was an Aussie hat that had been modified in brim with, and perhaps crown height. But you have to understand that what she ended up with using the Aussie hat, was what the film hats had to look like, as she had a definite idea of what this hat was to look like. I guess I need to buy her new book as she mentioned something about pics being in her new book.

The Aussie hats I have stored, have very straight crowns, no taper to speak of at all. But, in that state, you cannot get a Raider look from them. And they are not that tall to start with. I don't know what they are in height, but I can't see them being lowered, although who know, perhaps HJ had one on hand that had a tall crown. It is possible. Years ago, she did state the brim was wide, the ribbon was wide and the crown was tall. So, could be. And again, if the crowns were lowered, by even 1/4 of an inch, for the prototype, this means to me Swales reblocked them at the shop to match what Deb wanted. By the time of the second film, he may not have had the blocks anymore, and just used a factory made Poet, and told folks he used this hat for the first film, not a lie at all, but he just did not tell the whole story. I see that as being possible as well. I think Deb came in before HJ stopped making bespoke, or custom hats. But, only an assumption here. But it makes alot of sense.

One last thing. Unlike the TOD and TLC fedoras, you cannot see the stitching holding the sweatband on, at the brim break in the Raiders fedora. This tells me, the hats had the sweats removed, by Swales, and then resewed in, probably by hand. This would explain why we never see the stitching on the Raiders fedora. Now, if he had to resew in the sweats, this means the Poets had to be reblocked, no other reason for it. Fedora

what she said would explain a lot actually, as you also said. I wonder what block they used in the shop to do this bespoke hat which ended up being the Raiders hat. If we accept the theory that it wasn't used again later on for the other films, it means that probably they had actually broke the block or thrown it away or in any case lost it otherwise there is no reason they would have not used it again. Probably in between 81 and 84 as I'm sure it happened they stopped making hats in the shop so all the material was either thrown away or sent away. I know for a fact that for Temple of Doom the hats were made elsewhere. Sounds like the Raiders hat was made in the last days of bespoke hats I'm afraid.

I really should find this interview, never even knew it existed but it revealing a lot.

That would account for the drastic difference in the hats in the subsequent films. That might also be why Landis still says that the hat used in Raiders was am Australian model HJ. She doesn't know the specifics of the hat, just the look. Swales gave her the look of the hat based of what she saw. Although I am not fully convinced that the hat was bespoke. The bow work wasn't great it was all puffy and the stitches were very visible. This one criteria in which I judge a Raiders hat. That type of work would not have passed muster for a bespoke hatter. Maybe it was intentional; give the hat the beat up look they were looking for. But then again, comstumers usually age everything themselves and we know that Landis did indeed distress the Raiders hats and jackets by hand. I'm not sure what to think about the hat. There are so many contradictions with this hat that maybe it is like the Ark of the Covenant, not meant for men to find.

Dave

Anyway do we know what australian hats were sold by HJ back in the days? Or to be more precise, which models?
If the Raiders hat was made along the lines of an australian hat it doesn't mean that it was made FROM that hat but it surely is interesting to see exactly which hat suggested the look, originally.

I own that dvd and I was very confused also. I'm not a hat expert but she made it very confusing.

Becuase Landis isn't a hat expert either. She is a costume designer and as such is only interested with hot it will look on screen, not the exact name of the hat or the exact dimensions, ribbon width or color, etc. She didn't know this hat would become the most famous hat in the world. If she had, she may have documented exactly what she had in her hands.

Dave

Anyway do we know what australian hats were sold by HJ back in the days? Or to be more precise, which models?
If the Raiders hat was made along the lines of an australian hat it doesn't mean that it was made FROM that hat but it surely is interesting to see exactly which hat suggested the look, originally.

The hat she referred to was the Aussie military hat, with one side pinned to the crown. She picked it only because it had a wide brim, and once she could cut down to get what she wanted. The other hats there, the fedoras were too stingy in the brims, and looked too nice. She wanted a rougher looking hat for Indy.

On the bows, the TOD and TLC hat appear to have bows very close to what you get on new HJs. The stitch points are all the same, and they use way too many to secure it to the hat. The bow in Raiders looks to be made by someone else, and is a very clean bow compared to the other film hats. It looks more like a bespoke hat than the other two film hats. At least to my eye. And as I said, you don't see the stitches holding the sweat to the hat in the Raiders fedora, so they were well above the brim break, and this is something a bespoke hatter does.

My money says Swales made these hats for the first film himself, in the small hatshop at the HJ store. That makes alot of sense, and D.L. did state English hatters have the traditional of making bespoke hats. But that is not the case today. But apparently at one time, it was common. She probably got in on this at the end of the bespoke hatting days.

Also, the Poet comes with a 5 3/4 crown. Now, the Raiders fedora was not 5 3/4! It was shorter, and probably even less than 5 1/2. This makes sense too. If you block a tapered hat on a fuller block, you lose crown height. Since different hat sizes were used for the stunt men, Swales must have had a set of these blocks, used for the Raider fedora. And, they may have been the original Poet block to boot. When the Poet was made by other factories, they just used a block that they had on hand. This is very common, and may explain the difference in block shapes of the Raiders fedora compared to what followed. The original Poet made by HJ was made by HJ, and not someone else. This is a factual history. It could be that Swales still had the original Poet block in his shop, and used that for this hat. Lots of "could bes" and this is all conjecture on my part. But, conjecture based upon real hatting.

I own that dvd and I was very confused also. I'm not a hat expert but she made it very confusing.
I own that dvd and I was very confused also. I'm not a hat expert but she made it very confusing.

Being a hatter, it was not confusing to me at all. But her not being sure on whether or not they reduced the crown height is confusing. She just did not recall exactly.

What she did mention was how much they took off of the wide Aussie brim, first, 1/2, then 1 3/4 then 1 7/8, like she was not exactly sure of how much they removed. And she never mentioned a dimensional cut. She did stress that at the time she never knew it would become an iconic hat, and I am sure this plays into the part of her not recalling every detail.

But she was very explicit on HJ not offering a hat like she had made for her, at the time. It was not an off the shelf HJ is what I am getting at. Fedora

Becuase Landis isn't a hat expert either

I think she is. She made the hats for Blues Brothers, and was well versed in the fur felt. I think she knows quite a bit about hats, as she should. IMHO. Fedora

Landis knows about hats. That doesn't make her an expert, in my opinion.

Dave

Edit: She made the hats for Blues Brother? The same way you make hats, Steve? I thought she just picked them out, the way she did in Raiders? If she did make the, then why not make the Raiders hat?

Fedora wrote: Also, the Poet comes with a 5 3/4 crown. Now, the Raiders fedora was not 5 3/4! It was shorter, and probably even less than 5 1/2.

Where does this revisionism comes from Steve? I thought you were the 5 3/4 crown-man (if not taller). I was laughed at (not by you but still) when I said '5.5" or shorter crown' back in the days.

I agree that Landis might know about hats as much as a costume designer could but not as much as "a Steve" or "a Marc" would. That's just my two cents on that.

As for the description of the australian hat, it sounds like she was looking at the military slouch hat we also see in the Secrets of the Incas... by the way does anyone fancy putting this interview on youtube? It is useless for me to conjecture on things I haven't even heard.

Where does this revisionism comes from Steve? I thought you were the 5 3/4 crown-man (if not taller). I was laughed at (not by you but still) when I said '5.5" or shorter crown' back in the days

Oh my friend, I dropped down to 5 1/2 a few years ago when I noticed all of my 5 3/4 hats looked too tall on folks that posted pics of them in my hats. I have never remained static in my opinions when evidence showed me differently. And that is why I have tweaked my Raider blocks over the years. I never changed the breaking point and radius on the sides though, as nothing else seemed to work in this area. But, I have changed crown heights, and worked on the back of the hat alot. I just never went with the right breaking point and radius on the back until LLS showed me, hat in hand, what that yields. And nothing else will yield this particular look, on the back, except what LLS used, with an vintage HJ as the model. I think the vintage HJ was the same block as used on the Raider fedora, if not, it was very very close. Since these vintage HJs were made prior to WW2, it would be logical to assume they still were using the original Poet block, created by, or for Herbert Johnson, back when he actually was a hatter. As the hat business changed, and the hats were outsourced, and HJ was dead, there is no telling what block was used to make the Poet. Since it was originally made in HJ's life, he would have kept using that same block. I can believe easily that the small hat shop in the HJ retail store still had that same block, as it would be used for refurbs of the Poet, and hence, would be necessary for a refurb/reblock service that was very common way back when.

I changed my mind again when LLS did those pictorial studies of the crown height, and now believe that 5 3/8 works better, but it also depends upon the style block used to make a Raiders fedora. Certain blocks yield different creased heights, depending upon the dome used on those blocks. On my current Raiders block, even a 5 1/4 works great, as long as you are around Harrisons head size. But some customers head shape, on top, prevent me from using that height, because their heads will hit the top of the "top crease". And as D.L. stated in that interview, a guy wanting a hat to fit their facial shape needs to try on a million hats to find the one that works best with their own facial shape. Which Ford did at B and N. in London, prior to her making the trip to HJ. So her design relied upon Harrisons facial shape, which she said was long and narrow. That hat was tailored to look good on only him, or someone who shares the same facial and head shape.

Landis knows about hats. That doesn't make her an expert, in my opinion.

Dave

Edit: She made the hats for Blues Brother? The same way you make hats, Steve? I thought she just picked them out, the way she did in Raiders? If she did make the, then why not make the Raiders hat?

Perhaps because she was overseas, and did not have access to the hat shop at Western Costume. Hard to say really. But, she seemed to really know her hats, from what I can glean from the dvd of Indy Fans. I don't know how it operates today, but places like Western Costume, and even the big studios of yesteryear had a resident hatter, with his own hat shop. She may have meant she worked with the hatter for the Blue Brothers, as she did mention Brooks when she said she made the hats for Blues Bros. It may have been the same deal in that she came up with the hat she wanted, and then had Brooks replicate them for the film. I doubt she would have time to actually make the hats herself as she was more than just Indy's costume designer for the Raiders film. I am sure that sort of info is in her new book though, which I have not read. Planning on buying it though. She mentioned some pics regarding the costuming for Raiders, and that would be interesting to see.

If you guys get a chance, rent or buy this Indy Fan dvd. I think it was the most extensive interview I have seen regarding "the hat". She is quite a character! Fedora

I really do need to get this DVD. That would be the only way to fully know what she said and emant in the interview. At any rate, thanks for telling us about this, Steve. I didn't even know it existed.

Dave

As for the description of the australian hat, it sounds like she was looking at the military slouch hat

Yep Erri, that is the one she used. It never made sense to me until she explained it in the interview. Now I know what she is talking about, and it makes alot of sense since HJ had no fedoras that were even close to what she wanted for Indy. I wonder what happened to the prototype???? That would be very interesting to see!

Also, my Aussie slouch hats are packed up and in a storage building, but I thought they were more of a moss color than brown. But she said it was brown. I am no expert on the slouch hat, so maybe they came in differnt colors, but generally speaking, military hats are made to exact specs, in all areas, including color, which is why American hatters hated gov't contracts! They had a hard time getting the colors identical from run to run. That is normal for feltmakers, the variation in colors, and still haunts us today. Fedora

really do need to get this DVD. That would be the only way to fully know what she said and emant in the interview. At any rate, thanks for telling us about this, Steve. I didn't even know it existed.

Yeah man get it. I watched that interview 20 times so I could recollect what she said. The only annoying part was when she started saying the same thing over and over again, in reference to not knowing the hat would be an iconic hat after the fact. I am gonna look for the book on Amazon when I get a chance. The fedora interview is on the bonus part of the dvd. And looks like she had just finished talking about her book to an audience when this guy asked her about the hat. He asked her if the Aussie hat was made by HJ, or some other vendor, and she could not understand what he was asking! That is when she went into detail about how she came up with it, and how she did it. Heck, she probably thinks HJ had Aussie slouch hats made for them, without the holes, never realizing they used a Poet(perhaps) with a 3 inch brim to make her copies of what she came up with using the Aussie hat.

One question we will never know the answer to, is exactly how Swales copied the prototype, and what exactly he used to do so. And how he did it. I think most can see the Raiders fedora was different from the TOD and TLC hat though. I know it stands out to me, and it stands out alot. I never could get any of the HJs to look just like the Raiders fedora, except the vintage ones. Fedora

DR Ulloa wrote:I really do need to get this DVD. That would be the only way to fully know what she said and emant in the interview. At any rate, thanks for telling us about this, Steve. I didn't even know it existed.

Dave

It has been ALL over cow over the last years. Because it was made by a former member, I believe Mcfly, floatin joe, strider And I don't know who else had a part in the process of this movie.

I saw this DVD just a couple day ago at my local rental place. Now I have to go back and rent this one.

Dutch_jones wrote:

DR Ulloa wrote:I really do need to get this DVD. That would be the only way to fully know what she said and emant in the interview. At any rate, thanks for telling us about this, Steve. I didn't even know it existed.

Dave

It has been ALL over cow over the last years. Because it was made by a former member, I believe Mcfly, floatin joe, strider And I don't know who else had a part in the process of this movie.

It was made by the member "Jonesy" and I only helped at a few of their events, though in that scene with Deborah, the drawings he shows her were done by me, and they're on my wall! Floatin Joe and Schtick did about as much as I did too, and Strider just did that one interview, if I recall correctly. None of us are actually part of the crew on the film.

Shane

I'm adding the film to my netflix queue.. gotta hear this in person. ha

Randy

I wonder if she calls it an Aussie hat simply because the side was up? Today we readily recognise that as 'Aussie' but at one time it was a British Army/Commonwealth Forces tropical climate cap, not just Aussie.
The Aussie version has evolved into is own, but if what DL is referring to is a British version the crown may be different from the Aussie crown. In other words the Crown shape might be closer to what became the Raiders hat, so strictly looking at the Aussie hat for shape may be misleading. Just a thought.

I'm sure Commonwealth was over long before '81 but I'm very curious to see what hat you have in mind RC, you might be right (but again I have to see this interview to know what she said LOL)

Just to make sure, this is what we are all referring to, right?


curious thing, look also at these picture where you can see a resemblance of straight sides

Erri wrote:I'm sure Commonwealth was over long before '81 but I'm very curious to see what hat you have in mind RC, you might be right (but again I have to see this interview to know what she said LOL)

Just to make sure, this is what we are all referring to, right?


curious thing, look also at these picture where you can see a resemblance of straight sides

That first photo is a more current Aussie cap type.

The other two I think are also Aussie but obviously older, and likely closer to the British army hat. Those do appear to have a taller crown and straighter sides.

Yes in 1981 the commonwealth wasn't the same, but it's possible that a hat shop in England still carried a 'British Army' spec cap like that.

(Hope and Crosby, "Road to Bali") Well, now we see how the "Australian model" quote fits in. .. My Akubra slouch block is very close to the original Fed shape. Doesn't mean the HJ block is the same. If it is, I don't believe it was used for the Raiders hat. Here's an open crown on the David Morgan site. Mine is from the 60's. Fun quote from "Road to Bali", Fedora. - (Bing is about to place a diving helmet over Bob's head, Bob being in a lead booted diving suit) ........... Bob- "Say, you haven't got anything in straw with a wider brim and a long oval have you.. no you wouldn't have that here... well just try it on for size anyway.." Bing, to Dorothy Lamour- "Any size will do... this kid's head is a little pointy you know, he takes anything from a 3 to a 9 and 7/8's.." ....

So does anyone think that Swales took a homburg block from the shop and made the raiders hat out of that? It wouldn't be unbelievable to think that Swales thought the humburg block being the closest to the slouch hat (if not with even more straight sides). As I understand the homburg hats were indeed bespoke hats and probably made mostly in the shop.

Erri wrote:So does anyone think that Swales took a homburg block from the shop and made the raiders hat out of that? It wouldn't be unbelievable to think that Swales thought the humburg block being the closest to the slouch hat (if not with even more straight sides). As I understand the homburg hats were indeed bespoke hats and probably made mostly in the shop.

That wouldn't explain why the vintage HJ is so incredibly similar in blockshape to the Raiders hat.

Regards, Geert

What's this mythical little Swales hatmaking shop at HJ? Where is that documented? HJ employee John Isaac stated that hats weren't blocked in the shop, and only gave Swales credit for changing ribbons. ......It was reported by another, more recent employee, that he the hats were produced on a heated expanding block.. maybe that could have been done at the HJ shop... and, with this one, it would have produced a 360 stovepipe!

John Isaac was employed there only around the time of Temple of Doom. From 81 a lot of things changed

gwyddion wrote:

Erri wrote:So does anyone think that Swales took a homburg block from the shop and made the raiders hat out of that? It wouldn't be unbelievable to think that Swales thought the humburg block being the closest to the slouch hat (if not with even more straight sides). As I understand the homburg hats were indeed bespoke hats and probably made mostly in the shop.

That wouldn't explain why the vintage HJ is so incredibly similar in blockshape to the Raiders hat.

Regards, Geert

you make it sound as if the "vintage HJ" is a particular hat. I have plenty of Vintage HJ and none of them look like an indy hat

Erri wrote:John Isaac was employed there only around the time of Temple of Doom. From 81 a lot of things changed

gwyddion wrote:

Erri wrote:So does anyone think that Swales took a homburg block from the shop and made the raiders hat out of that? It wouldn't be unbelievable to think that Swales thought the humburg block being the closest to the slouch hat (if not with even more straight sides). As I understand the homburg hats were indeed bespoke hats and probably made mostly in the shop.

That wouldn't explain why the vintage HJ is so incredibly similar in blockshape to the Raiders hat.

Regards, Geert

you make it sound as if the "vintage HJ" is a particular hat. I have plenty of Vintage HJ and none of them look like an indy hat

ok, let me rephrase that:That wouldn't explain why the vintage HJ 'poet' is so incredibly similar in blockshape to the Raiders hat.

Regards, Geert

Are you referring to some specific picture? Please feel free to post it here.

Well, one specific vintage HJ comes to mind and everyone knows the one...the hat Steve gave to David and was the basis for the new block they are using. If the block existed, there could have been multiples and maybe they blocked a couple regular hats on it, not just bespoke hats. This is all, of course, conjecture, but with the Raiders hat, when is it not?

Dave

What's this mythical little Swales hatmaking shop at HJ? Where is that documented? HJ employee John Isaac stated that hats weren't blocked in the shop, and only gave Swales credit for changing ribbons. ......It was reported by another, more recent employee, that he the hats were produced on a heated expanding block.. maybe that could have been done at the HJ shop... and, with this one, it would have produced a 360 stovepipe!

Someone told me years ago, about the time of the Indyfan site, that Swales customized hats in the HJ shop, and I never thought much about it at the time.

Now, I can't recall who this person was, but do recall he was from the U.K. I talked to HJ a couple of years ago, to two people there, one was the buyer. She had just got back from China looking for a source of the hats that they were to sell under the HJ name. I found it amusing at the time that no one knew a thing about the fedora used for the Raiders hat. I found the same thing at Stetson when I was talking to them about the hats they provided for the films. No one was left from that era to really know a thing about them.

The facts of the matter could only be told by Mr. Swales. But with that said, it is helpful if we know how hats were sold back in the day. If you went to purchase a hat at Brooks Bros. here in the States, they had the equipment there to refurb hats, as well as resizing them. This was so common! Even your local dry cleaners had the equipment to refurb and reblock hats. I talked to one here in my town and he stopped doing it about 20 years ago. So, I bought his blocks and flanges. He used to do alot of them but finally had no call to do them and stopped.

It is no stretch at all to think that HJ who started out making their own hats, did this same thing. Locke did it for sure as I recall the pics of their blocks. If HJ never offered this service, that would be indeed strange. Swales apparently worked at the shop for a long time, and I would bet that he offered this service as well, at some point in time. A holdover from the old days.

One thing that Deborah did say on the film was that it was a bespoke hat, and that the English were famous(not her exact words) for bespoke hats. This tells me that she was under the impression that the work was done at HJ. How else would you take it? I don't think it is a coincidence that the vintage HJs yield a fairly accurate Raiders fedora, and no stretcher was used to create those vintage hats.

Stretchers were used to stretch out a shrunk hat, in order that it would fit over the right sized block. That was the purpose of the hat stretchers like you pictured 3M$. They were never used to block hats on. They used hat blocks or sinkers for that! There are two main types of stretchers. One has a bulbous top, that is used to stretch out the top of a badly tapered hat, so it will fit on the right block. The other is like the one you posted the pic of. That one was used to stretch the hat from top to bottom, so that it would fit over the block used to reblock the hat on. Never were these used for blocking hats. These stretchers were found in dry cleaners and small hat shops and even shops that sold hats. If a guy walked in and wore a size 7 5/8 hat, but you only had a 7 1/2, the shop could use the 7 1/2 to create a 7 5/8 by heating up the stretcher, misting the hat with water, and then you cranked it out to a 7 5/8 using the sizing scale on the bottom of the stretcher. Once it was the right size, the hat was pulled over the right block and a sweat was installed, ribbon, liner, and voila' you just sold the guy a hat. You guys went to Sunday School-right? Don't take my word for it, call an old hatter who has been around the business for decades. Each tool in a hat shop has a purpose, just like every other kind of shop.


If the sweat needed stretching from shrinkage the common band stretcher was used, and fit only the sweatband area. You see old ones on ebay all of the time, and I bought all of mine from there. There is a band stretcher for each hat size, and I own them all.

To end, I would be greatly surprised if HJ, a very old English hatting company did not offer refurbs for their own hats. They would not have lasted in the business very long if you had to take their hats to Locke and Company for refurbs. Fedora

Fedora wrote:
To end, I would be greatly surprised if HJ, a very old English hatting company did not offer refurbs for their own hats. They would not have lasted in the business very long if you had to take their hats to Locke and Company for refurbs. Fedora

-The HJ factory is 60 miles away, and trains run every 30 minutes. If you wanted a specific HJ model in a specific size and specific oval, matching flange, restored to original specs, I'd think they'd just overnight it to Cambridge, where all that original equipment already was. .... Now, I know I could take this block- crank closer together for my size, pull a wet crowned Fed 4 over it, let it dry, and I've a have nice Winston 360ish hat. The top would have a flat spot where the gap was, but, a Winston 360 is a flat top block. There would also be lines up the sides from the edges of the gap, but there's about 10 posts here where I discuss the lines I see up the sides of the Raiders hat. Going to a 360 stovepipe would also lower the crown of a hat with front and back taper. ...Just speculating for fun you understand... Anyway, the HJ Aussie could have the correct crown, we need to find one.

The HJ factory is 60 miles away, and trains run every 30 minutes. If you wanted a specific HJ model in a specific size and specific oval, matching flange, restored to original specs, I'd think they'd just overnight it to Cambridge, where all that original equipment already was. .... Now, I know I could take this block- crank closer together for my size, pull a wet crowned Fed 4 over it, let it dry, and I've a have nice Winston 360ish hat. The top would have a flat spot where the gap was, but, a Winston 360 is a flat top block. There would also be lines up the sides from the edges of the gap, but there's about 10 posts here where I discuss the lines I see up the sides of the Raiders hat. Going to a 360 stovepipe would also lower the crown of a hat with front and back taper. ...Just speculating for fun you understand... Anyway, the HJ Aussie could have the correct crown, we need to find one.

Dude, HJ has no factory! This is misinformation that has been repeated here time and time again. . I know this for a fact, unless they lied to me. Now, if a non hatter were to call them up, you might get a different story. WW2 destroyed the hatting industry in England. This is a fact. But, it did not destroy the hat business. The shops still had their equipment for refurbs, etc. But no felt was made again in England. It was outsourced. In fact, the hats were outsourced, but like any small shop that sold hats, they had the capability of customizing what they outsourced.

In regards to the hat stretcher, any hat made above the minimum size of the stretcher( say a 6 3/4) would have the same width as the 6 3/4. So, if you were to make a 7 3/8 using the stretcher as the block, you would have a triple long oval hat! Hat sizes grow in length and width as you move up in sizes. The only accurate hat a stretcher would make would be its smallest size, like the 6 3/4. Because of this, no hatter would use this instead of the proper sized block. The stretcher had a purpose, but it was not to block hats on. I have to use em if I get back a hat that is really tapered and won't go over the block without losing valuable crown height. So, you stretch out the top of the hat, so it fits over the block once again. Now, perhaps if a shop had hats sitting around, and the sweats shrunk up a bit, you could use this stretcher to stretch the sweats back out so they reflected the size on the sweatband. I could see it being used for this too. I wondered if Ron may have done this on a couple Feds I bought years ago. I seem to see the indications of a stretch on a couple of those hats. But, in all of the pics I have studied of the Raiders fedora, I have never seen the telltale signs of this being used on the film hats. But them, I can't see the signs of a telescope crown preceding the final crease of the Raiders fedora either. Any line that I can see can be attributed to sitting on a rabbit hat. On some felt, crushing a hat will leave these lines.

Back to HJ. They have outsourced their hats for decades, and probably since WW2. Borsalino made them in the late 80's and early 90's. The current ones represented a change in makers after SAB bought the HJ name and brick and mortar shop. We don't know for sure who made the hats during the Raider period, Swales had mentioned South America to someone, at some point in time. Now, the way the hat business works, is when you change sources for your hats, the new factory uses the blocks they already have to create the hat. HJ would not send their blocks to the factory. But, they could send one to have the factory to replicate it. If the factory is able to do this. And most are. More than likely though, the factory would just use a block that was "close" and already in stock. This is very common.

Back in the early 90s, I got in scores of HJs to reblock. I saw different browns, and different crown heights, ranging from 5 inches to 6! No consistency, which says to me that there was a change in hat sources during this period. Also, the felt on most of those hats was unlike what they use today. It was a much more substantial felt, almost western like in its appearance, and much thicker than the current HJs. Each factory used has its own finger print in regards to felt. All felt is not the same. Even if it is rabbit. There is a big difference between Akubra rabbit, Winchester rabbit and the current HJ rabbit. You can tell they were made at different factories. When I look at the Raiders fedora, I see a totally different felt than is used today, but it is actually closer to the Raider felt than it used to be. It seems to be thinner, today than what the Raider fedora was. Not as substantial. I think the Raider fedora just had more fur in it, that is, say 4 ounces instead of 3 1/2. They weigh the fur prior to running the hat. This is the rule for hat production. Every one does it. With that said, I think the current HJ felt, would be really close if they used a heavier body, a little thicker in the crown. But, I doubt if it was actually made by the same hat factory. Since many hat factories who made their own felt went belly up after 1981, my bet says the original maker of the Raider felt is long gone. It sure wasn't Cury felt, or the other feltmaker in S.A. whose name starts with an 'L". I have gotten samples from both, and was not pleased with this felt at all. Way too trashy! By that, I mean, non fur items in the body. They forgot to clean the machines! After my feltmaker runs a run, say a blend, they break down the machines and have to clean them before they run the next run, which may be pure rabbit or pure beaver, or another blend that they offer. The S.A. companies don't seem to care, but I gauge this only by samples I recieved only once. Once was enough, as generally they will send the best for samples..........Fedora

Fedora wrote:
Dude, HJ has no factory!

Well, they have an address in an industrial park in Cambridge and sell military hats. They even offer "bespoke" hats. http://www.herbert-johnson.co.uk/ Also, that HJ employee claimed he found the Raiders bocks in storage in Cambridge. He noted there was a wooden block with the expanding one to handle the biggest size, so you are right about the expanding blocks oval limitations.

I have recovered the original blocks used which were in storage in Cambridge - One is a metal heated expanding block which is circa 1952 and uses a corkscrew turning wheel. The other was used for very large sizes 62+ and is wooden but the same shape. Both are totally flat sided and are very high to accommodate the crown height with a slightly domed top.

It just occured to me, maybe his wooden block is another stretcher made from wood, that is wider than the metal one? He said it was for "very large SIZES" not just one size.

have recovered the original blocks used which were in storage in Cambridge - One is a metal heated expanding block which is circa 1952 and uses a corkscrew turning wheel. The other was used for very large sizes 62+ and is wooden but the same shape. Both are totally flat sided and are very high to accommodate the crown height with a slightly domed top.

Yeah, sounds like to me he found these tools that were used for stretching out hats at one time, and doesn't know what the intent of these tools were. That would be normal, as most don't have a clue exactly the purpose of said tools. I reckon most hatters know what these were used for, but novices don't. No hatter would ever recommend making a hat, using a hat stretcher as the block, as they know blocks are intended for blocking hats.

Every hat stretcher I have seen starts out with a small size hat, and goes up to a large size. The side to side measurement for a size 7 hat is smaller than the side to side for for a size 7 3/8, and the front to back along with the sides increase as the hat size moves up, which makes a stretcher unsuitable for making hats. But, they work great for a shrunk up hat that needs to be stretched in order to fit over the proper sized and proper shaped block for a particular hat.

In hatmaking, the hat must be ironed while still on the block, and a stretcher of this type would forbid this being done, due to the gaps on the sides once you moved up from the closed position. Not to mention again that a larger hat would end up being a double super triple long, long,long oval. No one has this type of head, humans that is.

If any hatter actually used a hat stretcher to block a hat, he would be laughed at as being....well, not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. It would be like using a monkey wrench as a hammer, it might work, but you would have alot of bent nails, and busted fingers.

It does appear though that SAB is still selling military hats etc, and offer a custom service for this market. But, I doubt they are producing felt hats, in this operation. But, I am sure at one time, they indeed did offer felt military hats, way back.

I know for a fact that they don't make their own felt hats these days, but outsource them, and have done so for many years. But, it was not always this way. Back a long time ago, prior to WW2, HJ was a real hatter, in the same way that Stetson was in this country, and like Stetson, they went belly up. In the case of HJ, they simply outsourced their hats, while Stetson just sold the name for others to use. This last buyout by SAB, is basically the same as Stetson did, they bought the name HJ, and still sell hats under that label, that are made by a factory in.....well, I won't say where, but I know where it is. Prior to this, I know that HJ used Borsalino, but prior to Borsalino, I have no clue whom they used.

As to who actually customized the Raider fedora, using a Poet, or whatever they used, I doubt we will ever know. One scenerio says they were actually done in the HJ shop, when Swales was there, and if you compare ribbons, the Raiders to what came later, you can clearly see the bows are different, and look to have been done by someone else. The hat also looks different as well. The other scenerio would be that Swales made out an order, and had a factory to make these hats, but there are problems to me personally with this scenerio. First, getting a fast shipment made, within the time constraints of most costumers is almost impossible to do. Then, the hats had to match what Deborah had created as the prototype. Most factories are not up to this sort of custom work, and won't do it, for 30 to 36 hats. And if they would, the lead time would be prohibitive for film work. That tends to make be think that Swales, got in stock bodies, and customized them at the local level, as that would be must faster than waiting on a factory to custom make hats, which they generally do not do. This is the most logical way to me, in replicating the prototype. And she did say it was a bespoke hat, and HJ did not sell this hat prior. She created it. Now, when the next film arrived, they had a different costume designer, Toney Powell, I think. To me it looks like Swales just ordered a factory made hat, and that is what he sent Tony. The bow is certainly the type that HJ has produced ever since with the four tack stitches on the knot of the bow. And the over kill in stitches. So, I think the stock Poet was used for TOD and TLC, while the Raiders fedora was custom made, using a Poet as the clay. It looks to be so, just by looking at the 3 films.

The fact that HJ had no Poets in the shop tells me they had not sold this hat for years. Why should they? The style of the times dictated short crowns and stingier brims.

Now, what I think happened is this. Swales got in an order of the old Poet, and used this as a starting point in replicating the Raiders fedora. It came with a 3 inch brim, which would give him the needed brim width to work with. I think he changed the block shape, cut the 3 inch brim to the specs Deborah has specified, and put the ribbon on, in the HJ shop. It is easy for me to believe that he still had the tools needed for bespoke hats, left over from years prior when they actually serviced hats, and created bespoke hats at the local level, in the same way that Locke did, and in the same way that small hat shops did here many years ago. That would be very, very logical, and I think perhaps the simplest explanation is more viable in this. But that is only my opinion, and I would not have had it 10 years ago prior to getting into hatting, and learning about how things used to be done. But once you know how things worked back in the old days, it makes perfectly good sense. But, I can't see him using a hat stretcher to do so. It just goes against hatting to do something like this. It is nonsensical, if you know what that tool was designed for, and what it was used for originally. Indy's hat would have been a double triple long, long oval, and we can clearly see that it is not. In fact, it appears to be a regular oval to me. It does not have the look of a hat made on an expanding stretcher. If I had the time, I could prove this, but I don't have the extra time to actually use a hat stretcher to make a hat on. But, I know what it would yield already, as I have stretched out hats so they would fit back on the same block they originally came off of. You end up with a long narrow hole that fits no ones head. And no hatter would ever use it to make a hat on. It is not intened for that purpose.

I was always puzzled by the Australian hat mentioned by D. L. until I listened to that interview. Now, it makes perfectly good sense. She was creating a hat she had envisioned, and they did not have the hat in stock with a wide enough brim, and used the slouch hat due to the large brim that could be cut down to arrive at her specs. Since the Poet looks little like the Raiders fedora, this tells me the blockshape was changed, by someone. Since it was referred to by her, as a bespoke hat, that tells me this hat was a one of a kind. If the TOD hat and TLC hat had been identical to the Raiders fedora, it would be easy to say that all 3 hats were the same, Poet blockshape. But, they differ. So, if they differ this logically means the same block was not used. Now, if they indeed did have to shorten up the crown a little, this would definetely mean the crown was reblocked to shorten it up, no other way to do it. And a guy who knew what he was doing would never use a hat stretcher to reblock a hat on. I assume Swales knew what he was doing, the the apperance of the Raiders fedora does not have the look of a hat made on a hat stretcher, and neither does Terry's fedora. There is no elongation visible. But, opinions are just...opinons. But there are informed opinions, and uninformed opinions. Just because this chap found hat stretchers in Cambridge does not mean they were used for anything other than their intended purpose. Therefore, I could not put much stock in anything this guy says. If he were a real hatter, his opinion would drastically change. But, this is fun to talk about. And, as all know, I have strong opinions on all of this. But, I am not cast in concrete. I have changed my mind when real evidence surfaced, and will always do so. I am intensely interested in this sort of stuff. And, if I am wrong, I sure don't mind the mea culpas. I wonder if Mr. Swales is still alive and kicking? Only he would be able to tell us the truth, if he even remembers. I can see him saying when Tony ordered the hats for the second film, "no way I am custom making these hats" and just ordered the stock Poet, with the factory dimensionally cut brims, or cut them himself, but doing no extra work on them. The ribbons to me says this happened. These other hats look just like factory HJs. They don't have the mystique of the Raiders fedora.

One last thing. I was told once that Cambridge was making the dress hats for HJ. That is not true. Now, granted HJ might want folks to think they actually made their own hats, but I can assure you, they do not. I know where they are made, and I know alot about the factory. Its a very old factory, been around for a long time, and one of the few survivors still left today. This one factory makes most of the hats sold in Europe, the economy hats and the upper drawer hats.(and even some well known old brands) And, they don't want folks to know it! So, any info you would get from HJ, would be very deceptive, trust me on this. There is a reason for it. I call this sort of thing just simple lies, but they call it something else.... Marketing! Take anything you hear out of them with a big salt shaker. I don't do business like this. I have always told, in the past who my suppliers were. I don't see any reason not to do so. But, the guy I buy my felt from wants me to shut up, as too many are trying to buy bodies, who are not hatters, just trying to save a buck or two, or have a new hobby. And with HJ, why tell customers that you can buy the same hat under a different name, like Christy for much less? When you buy a new HJ, you are buying the same hat sold by others.....now, the question is, is this a real Poet from Hj, or just a standard blockshape used by several companies? I think it is the latter, but many are convinced this is the Indy hat. Not me. Fedora

I wonder if Mr. Swales is still alive and kicking? Only he would be able to tell us the truth, if he even remembers.

You arrive a bit late there, Swales died a few years ago I'm afraid, this stuff had to be asked back in the days. I'm surprised you didn't contact him before Steve

Erri wrote:

I wonder if Mr. Swales is still alive and kicking? Only he would be able to tell us the truth, if he even remembers.

You arrive a bit late there, Swales died a few years ago I'm afraid, this stuff had to be asked back in the days. I'm surprised you didn't contact him before Steve

Are you sure? I asked Noel about it, and he said he didn't know he passed away... thats when I thought it could have been wrong?

Anyway a friend of mine spoke to Swales often and being a journalist he made an article on Raiders, and asked about the blocks, but Swales SWORE there was no other block then the Poet block.

So I've heard. I'm sure it is quite a recent thing ('06/'07 possibly). Can anyone with "contacts" actually confirm it?

I don't know how much Noel knew about Swales, I never thought about asking him that.

You arrive a bit late there, Swales died a few years ago I'm afraid, this stuff had to be asked back in the days. I'm surprised you didn't contact him before Steve

As you may, or may not know, Mr. Swales thought the Indy fans were nuts! His standoffish attitude kept many folks from talking to him, me being one of them. Now, I heard that right before he retired, he was a little nicer to the walk in customers, but I recall numerous accounts prior to that, of him not being very helpful, and had this attitude towards the Indy fans.

nyway a friend of mine spoke to Swales often and being a journalist he made an article on Raiders, and asked about the blocks, but Swales SWORE there was no other block then the Poet block

Of course he did. He would rather sell an existing hat than make a bespoke one. If this had been another guy, say a hatter in most countries, he would have made the bespoke ones and charged you for it. I just got the idea over the years he did not want to "fool with" the nuts who were after "the hat." Now, a minority here actually think the Poet as we know it, is indeed the Raiders fedora. Just don't try to convince any hatter it was the same. You may as well try and convice them a Porche is a Ford pickup truck!

Would it not be a HUGE coincidence that what D.L. wanted matched the Poet EXACTLY? I know from working with one costume designer that these folks know what they want, and are bull doggedly intent on getting exactly what they want. They get the next job by being so anal towards their visions. It is their job. And they take great pride in it. D.L. emphasized that the Raiders fedora was a bespoke hat, and that it was not available for sale, in the shop. Since to most her hat does not match the others, this is enough evidence for me.

I think if you asked most fans if the Poet we know is the Raiders fedora, you would get a resounding NO! And if you asked any hatter who is familiar with all of the film hats, you would also get the same answer. It is that clear to most people. So, we moved on and conjectured over exactly what was done in order to arrive at this iconic look, at least that is where I have been for many years. I know it is not the same block, and can prove it to myself by haveing an HJ in hand and comparing it to the film. It ain't even in the ballpark. And what are the odds that each factory that has been used had in stock, the ancient Poet block? Slim to none. It's not like HJ had an old customer base that insisted upon having the exact same hat they bought 40 years prior. No one wears hats anymore. When you add all of this up, it is obvious to me that you got snake surprise when you bought an HJ from the late 80's onward. You might recieve a 5 inch tall hat, you might recieve a 6 inch tall hat. Or heights in between. I know, because I have seen them with my own eyes. I am sure there are some members here who bought those sorts of hats way back. Any time HJ changes their suppliers for the Poet, you see changes. If there had only been one Poet, these folks would never have recieved what they did in the late 80's and early 90's. This sort of stuff is very hard to discount. There is just too many things that don't add up, and when this sort of thing happens, some folks try to figure out what actually happened. And some here have done that for many, many years. I am one of them. And, I am not alone.

Several different blockshapes will lend a Raiders fedora, on the macro level, be it a number 52, a 952, a 59, a 60, a number 1, a number 5, a 43, 40, the examples are numerous. These blocks are not identical, but they will lend a decent Raiders fedora, in fact much better than the Poet block as we know it. But on the micro level all of these blocks come up short. I am concerned only with the micro level, as is folks like 3M$, Marc and LLS. Folks like me, Marc and 3M$ have been at this for years and we have people joining the ranks all the time, like LLS and Indy G and Ohio Jones. These guys saw right away that an improvement was needed over the Poet as we know it and had the motivation to experiment.

To me the biggest problem in reverse engineering the Raiders block is due to shrinkage of the film hats. I have no doubt they shrunk up really fast which makes it difficult to replicate the shrinkage in a blockshape. I have used the hat outside the temple as the Rosetta Stone, as I can clearly see that hat has no shrinkage at all. And by comparing it to the other film hats, with the bow as the telltale sign, it is obvious this is a new and different hat than what we see in the rest of the film. I also pay alot of attention to the behind the scenes hat on Ford, right before he is to be dragged behind the truck. You get good up top angles of this hat, as well as profile shots, and almost a 360 view all in one scene. You see it high, and you see it low. Then there is Terry's very square hat that is a 7 5/8 sized hat and it absolutely looks nothing like what we know of as the Poet. These things matter, and they matter a whole lot to the folks that want as close as humanly possible. Face it, if HJ had been able to send us an accurate Raider fedoras from the get go, you would not have all of the other offerings out there. Nature abhors a vacuum. Fedora

I had forgotten one thing. The Raiders fedora does not have the brim break stitching(holds the sweat to the hat). This brim break stitching is on the TLC fedora, as I can see it. And, I have never seen a modern HJ that did not have the stitching at that point. The Raiders fedora did not have it, which means the stitching was moved up above the brim break. So to me, this points to a bespoke hat. Fedora

Bought this on ebay last night. British made, looks like it has less taper than an Akubra slouch. (But I've been fooled before by auction pics) The seller said it was a 5 7/8, and I thought he made a mistake, because it looks like it says 6 7/8, but now I think it could say 5 7/8, so I don't know what to think of this tiny thing, even if it's a 360 stovepipe

EXCELLENT PURCHASE

I LOVE it! Man I'm jealous of your purchase. Post more pictures when you get it please (especially open crown!)

I got to be Belloq!I knothe film maker, I just saw him the other day at work. It's how I met McFly! What specifically are the questions regarding the original hat? Compile a list and perhaps an in depth interview can be arranged with Mrs. Landis for specifics.
Nothing is being promised, she was very gracious to allow the crew into her home for the interview, perhaps a few(less than twenty) questions can be asked of her on the matter.
j-

Somebody could show the picture of 3thobucks's hat and ask her if that's the one she originally saw. Not that it would help us with our search for the Indiana Jones hat but it would be curious if we could find the hat that inspired her.

On a different thought about the Australian hat... are we sure she didn't see that kind of hat in Berman & Nathans and then went to a hatter (HJ) to have a replica done with her own specs (no holes etc)? Why would HJ sell australian-looking slouch hats? It sounds to me more like the kind of hat that you could easily find in Bermans' costume department than a high class hatter.

Erri, that's something I've wondered for years myself.

HJ has ALWAYS been a gentlemens store, acknowledged and used by the British Royal House...so why, indeed, would a slouch Australian hat be on their shelves....even in the late 70's, when they were looking for and acquiring props and costume items to begin production.

Of course, as we've said time and time again, ANYTHING could have happened, and anything is possible...but that was just one piece of the puzzle that never seemed to fit for me either.

Regards! Michaelson

Just a thought, but doesn't Herbert Johnson also have a history of supplying/producing military hats? If so, then could this and the Australia/British Commonwealth connection be the reason HJ had such a hat?

Been playing with the Streetview thing on Google...

Check it out (clicky!)

It must be night time 'cuz all I'm seeing is a big black square.

I think we broke it! LOL.

Save it for later.